We need more progression!

And thus the low character of ad hominem shows its true form falling as flat on its face with the full weight of its pretension as would the fallacy from which it sprung.

@cleanlyuniform5, The primate, so clearly incapable of the coherent argumentation that would be required so as to further any notion of respectable discourse relevant to any pertinent concerns it has so clearly failed to defend, the unexceptional primate bolstering such impressive lack of wit, constructs with words it so clearly fails to comprehend what could only be described as the most remarkable array of incoherent ramblings as have ever had the misfortune of being read.

Having already resorted to overindulgence of ejectamenta, at this pace once you have finished fellating yourself I half expect you to next set alight with egregious gibber. Lest you mean to say your words have been so villainously misconstrued that it is to form the fictitious backbone of your argument in rebuttable to even the slightest counterpoint, which you have thus far spectacularly failed to do.

Careful sir, your stupidity is showing.

My friends and I think the same, the mechanics of the game is entertaining, but it is not as fun as in the beginning. We are leaving play because it is repetitive

I've got painted sails, painted hull, the clothes I like, and the equipment skins I like. I'm sitting on over 100k gold. Time to grief everyone I see. PVP BABY!

@a-trusty-mango Ah! A Rusty Mango, the trusty label maker, a very old and cheap model to be sure but you seem locked on repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat ad infinitum. Must be a design flaw, but what can you expect from a second rate ad hominem?.

@a-trusty-mango said in We need more progression!:

@tarosd I do play Rust, yes. Bout 500 hours locked onto that bad boy of a KoS nightmare game. So that name is a fair name. I applaud you. I will use that when I play Rust.

I have yet to see you post anything of value here or any ideas at all for that matter. You are acting very childish, a Joffery Baratheon if you would. I would like to hear your opinions on to how and or why any type of progression that is not purely driven in cosmetics would harm the game community in any way shape or form?

And please, use your own words. Don't just point me to the post you liked and said was eloquent as your own. Impress me with your language in your ability to create something meaningful to this debate or I will bore of you quickly.

Truly a shock to see on these forums but I'll gladly bite.

First off; Sea of Thieves is a beautiful casual social sandbox game, it was always intended to be and does this brilliantly at its core. It is entirely unique and downright stupid in how fun it is and yet enticing in how deep it is, and that is a good thing for what it tries to achieve. I have been playing since early alpha and have seen the game evolve and grow.

The balancing that is currently in place is well considered, measured and functional. Disregarding the faulty assumptions the obsessive completionists of the community, it was never a game about mindlessly grinding to the max level or even really about unlocking cosmetics. Its a game about having fun and pretending to be a pirate. It is to gaming as a child is to play. If this is anyway in doubt please consider that considerable attention was given to being able to fire yourself out of a cannon, playing pirate shanties on musical instruments while having the quality of the aforementioned music reflected by how much grog you've consumed followed by the inevitable spewing of guts into buckets.

The sailing mechanics alone are exquisite and the combat balance is delicate and far more sophisticated than it lets on but allows for skill, teamwork and most importantly imagination to turn the tide even when heavily outnumbered. In an age where games are increasingly following trends and jockeying for the lowest common denominator using detestable gimmicks upon a layer of archaic and fundamentally broken mechanics like "rock, paper, scissors" and limiting class and level systems; it is truly exhilarating to see a developer beat the trend and make something truly exceptional.

Now that might sound counterintuitive considering it is in fact a casual social game, but that game is a true gem, however underappreciated it may be by people who cannot unshackle their minds from the condescending handholding that is so prevalent in the rest of the gaming industry. If the game suffers from anything it is that it somehow managed to attract the faulty expectations of malcontents who would be far happier playing the sort of pay to win games like world of tanks and the like.

With this in mind, seeing it for what it is, the addition of stat based progression and level systems would cheapen the experience and break away from what the game was meant to be to a level which is downright criminal, not to mention unbalancing for the casual novice the game was designed to appease. If progressing to the top of the leaderboards is all you care about then there are plenty of games which cater specifically to you, this one does not and there is in fact even an upcoming pirate game which does indeed cater to such a person, Skull and Bones. The irony is perhaps how little people seem care for that game at all given the perceived demand but I believe that is an inversion of the very same reasons that make Sea of Thieves is so great. They have stripped it of anything that is 'fun' and replaced it solely with the level grinding competition so mistakenly labeled 'progression', now that is a game made for hardcore competitive gamers. Sea of Thieves is not.

The 'we need moar progression' line of thinking is a trap and it would break the game on a fundamental level, not to mention the audacity of demanding that the developers completely rebuild the core gameplay in a game they have spent years working on and have very specifically chosen not to add said mechanics because it did not align with the game they wanted to make. And demanding all this in order to make the game explicitly less unique.

You didn't ask, but what do I think they could add that would have a positive and unifying impact on the community?

Cosmetics are great, and we need more of it but that isn't the end all measure.
What is already there is mistakenly put behind ludicrous prices, this is a reactionary measure to placate the misplaced call for 'progression', in truth this measure only serves to inflame the faulty notion of which audience the game is meant to serve. What we need is volume, things are that silly, things that are unique and interesting to fit the tone which can only be found from doing unique and special things in interesting places.

More than cosmetics we also need more ships, though only one or two which fall in line with the balance that has been so painstakingly produced. We also need unique decorations for our ships that can only be found in the world. We do need more verity of quests and a larger world to explore and perhaps even areas which cannot be reached except by those who would hold special items such as keys or cursed maps. We need the ability to effectively communicate between ships and greater implicit challenges which would force crews to band together, if albeit temporarily. We need unexpected storms, sea creatures and strange weather phenomena. We need shanties and unique music the is hidden around the world and possibly even unique instruments to play them. We need implicit mysteries to solve and so much more. We need the places you can only reach by getting lost (edge of the world anyone?). We need to be able to buy supplies (cannonballs, bananas & planks).

The game sets a precedent which has never been achieved before and I fear that if the developers bend under the pressure, then as a drop in the ocean, it will be lost forever.

Now if this is not sufficient to convince you that adding 'progression' is folly and trite, I fear nothing will.

@cleanlyuniform5

I absolutely agree with! This game needs functional progression and it doesn't need to be anything that increases how hard you hit but I was so confused when they said "you'll be able to purchase cosmetics in the game"....to keep doing the same thing the same way ? And then they followed up with "oh by the way we will also have a premium store..... Which will also only sell cosmetics!" Ok........

Let me purchase a telescope that has a little less shine, flippers that make swimming a little quieter, a new weapon that requires gold to unlock, ships could have different hulls which could add a strength and weakness strategy to the gane... Such as speed (weakness firepower), armor, attack power, etc.

"Horizontal Progression" frankly I'm wondering if the selling point was based on less level of effort.

@falk-van-cleef said in We need more progression!:

@tarosd From the beginning on the dev said no vertical progression, so clearly you came to the wrong game. Please stop making game like you want them, play game which are like you want them an tweak them.

Hmm let's examine that for a moment.

The developers have stated No vertical progression, as you say.
I like that they intended the game with no vertical progression.
I am vehemently opposed to adding vertical progression.

So clearly I came to the wrong game, a game which I enjoy immensely and would very much prefer to see unchanged and kept much as it is?

Are you completely off your nut?

@falk-van-cleef said in We need more progression!:

@tarosd first wash your mouth with soap before talking to adults ;)

Ah! A troll.
How quaint.

@cleanlyuniform5 let me drop this here

It sounds like what you want is a treadmill that spits out RNG garbage that gives you statistical boosts because people like numbers going up.
Sea of Thieves isn’t the kind of game that wants you playing 20-50+ hours a week to remain competitive with the end game. It wants you to have fun with your friends and create your own adventures. Not patting you on the back, constantly reminding you what a good player you are like every other game.

its a sandbox game, and as such they usually don't have any progression at all, its up to the player how they make thier content

@a-trusty-mango said in We need more progression!:

@tarosd You make good points and I agree with you on many of them. The world is largely empty and lifeless when it comes down to the bone and gristle. If these were added in the game, there would be no need for progression and everyones cries would go away as what you described is the content everyone has been wanting as that would have the focus more on playing the game instead of logging in with the sole intention to treat it like it is a battlefield game.

I do disagree with the casual social sandbox definition though. The dev's may have said this at one point but their marketing and advertisement does not broadcast this very well nor the world PvP. If you go and look at the Microsoft store page, the first description of the game is shared-world adventure game. Then it list's it as a online multiplayer co-op. So already the marketing of the game is gearing the game towards a heavy co-op PvE style adventure game. They make one mention of PvP and that is ship battles. Every thing else they mention about combat is all PvE related. Most sandboxes do not really have a main quest or any quest to do as it is all about using the tools they have put in the game and you doing whatever you want. Garry's Mod is a good example. A casual social experience game would be more in lieu of VR Chat or Neopets or something similar where the main real goal of the game is to interact with other people more then the game itself. They are social games. And I don't think Sea of Thieves is a sandbox either, open world sure but a sandbox? That is a bit of a stretch as you cannot interact with the world in any other ways beside picking objects up and setting them down. You also cannot blame the people who have been relentlessly grinding as well, as I know the devs said Pirate Legend is where the game really starts and the cool stuff happens.

And the very final thing I have to say is that progression does not have to be stats and levels. The game already has a reputation level system so in ways it does have a progression system already into it. It needs more stuff behind the walls to be unlocked for it to start to be juicy enough for many people. I had a idea as I was pretty disappointed you couldn't choose two pistols or have two cutlasses, so I thought recently with many of these posts demanding progression that it doesn't have to be with stats or levels to make x item stronger. But much in the same way as the Rogue Sea dog jacket( I am coming for you pearly white and teal) is locked behind a rep. Why not other more interesting stuff? The ability to dual wield for instance could easily be something that can be unlocked and that would be something good for progression. And for a example of my line of thought in this, It would be a high rep level. I would say 30 in each to unlock customization option dual wield and the Mysterious Strange could grant it to you so the climb to Pirate Legend was slightly more rewarding then grats on those 5, now get 5 more. It would be easy for the game to keep register of what weapons you have in your inventory so if you have two swords equipped, you wouldn't be able to use any guns. And vice versa. They do half damage so two swipes of the blades would equal one slash of a normal cutlass, same blocking speed and recovery speed as well and for the pistols I would suggest they keep the same damage but the reload speed is increased and you can only reload after firing both and then you have to reload both before firing again. That way if someone who had it fought against another person without it they still are on even footing. No real advantage in battle. More customization and cosmetic appearance but the player has to work for it and something like would appease many a people.

It pleases me to no end that someone in this thread has the good sense to to argue ad rem and i truly commend you for it.

Now, if you'll permit my refutation on the subject, I see a critical fault to your argument and we're going to have to touch briefly on the point of semantics to fully explore it.

You've conflated "casual" and by extension "social" to mean "peaceful" or non-combative which in fact does not coincide with the largely agreed upon nomenclature used in reference to games at large. So let us begin with the facts.

The Wikipedia definition of "Casual Game".
"A casual game is a video game targeted at or used by casual gamers. Casual games may exhibit any type of gameplay or genre. They are typically distinguished by simple rules and by reduced demands on time and learned skill, in contrast to more complex hardcore games."

The Wikipedia definition of "Social gaming".
"Social gaming most commonly refers to playing online games that allow or require social interaction between players, as opposed to playing games in solitude. "

The Wikipedia definition of "Sandbox Game".
"A sandbox is a style of game in which minimal character limitations are placed on the gamer, allowing the gamer to roam and change a virtual world at will. In contrast to a progression-style game, a sandbox game emphasizes roaming and allows a gamer to select tasks."

These definitions as outlined taken together describe Sea of Thieves with a great level of accuracy would you not agree? There is no possible interpretation that would suggest Casual and Social to mean non-combative or excluding any kind of player versus player combat or player versus environment combat. The assertion that VR Chat is even a game is also false, it is a purely conversational environment with no rules or structure.

On the point of adventure I would again wholeheartedly disagree but I see where the confusion lies and I suspect it largely stems with how adventure films are presented.

The Wikipedia definition of "Adventure game"
"An adventure game is a video game in which the player assumes the role of a protagonist in an interactive story driven by exploration and puzzle-solving."

If you would concede to the facts we might continue ad rem.

The notion of vertical progression stands in direct opposition to the casual nature of the game as intended from its inception and would alienate the very audience for which it was intended. If this is still unclear, allow me to further stress the relationship involved with the very root of the issue. A casual game is designed for players to simply "hop-in" and enjoy the experience without being compelled to commit very large investments of valuable time. This is opposed to the very core aspect of progression games such as most MMO titles which employ progression mechanics much in line with what has been suggested where a casual gamer has no hope or prier of competing on the same level as everyone else or in fact those who can afford to make large investments of valuable time.

The desire for 'progression' has very little to do with a game that quite brilliantly executes the intent of it's designers beautifully and everything to do with the nature of the players making the aforementioned unreasonable requests upon it. In ad hoc I would postulate that it is the somewhat understandable desire that the aberrant misalignment of expectations should add inflated value and reward for the considerable investment of time spent playing the game under a faulty baseless assumptions, where none was ever intended.

Do you now understand the absurdity in this expectation?

@cleanlyuniform5 said in We need more progression!:

@tarosd I love how you reply to each of my messages proving my message to be accurate. It's like you're just digging away unaware that your deep in your own hole of self regard and no one will help you out because you made everyone hate you just for being you. :-D

Barring the fact that you have repeatedly embodied the very definition of smug self-righteousness, you continue to display an alarmingly consistent level of self-deceptive delusion that borders on the clinically insane.

@cleanlyuniform5 I think we are all on to something here, but it's not giving performance boosts. It's being rewarded for our effort. The game does not reward players fast enough. The spectacle for leveling up is missing. We don't see any xp gained numbers in ui because it is minimal. We don't see any damage numbers when hitting enemies or health bars, we don't receive any rewards for our accomplishments. Even something as simple as a +10xp for killing a skeleton would feel rewarding and lead us to the big gains when leveling up our reputation at a merchant. We need more rewards to keep players interested. We need to make them feel like their time is meaningful. I would love to see an overall pirate level system added into the game. Leveling your pirate should provide some benefit not tied to the merchant system. I wouldn't feel nearly as bad and p****d off after getting ganked and losing everything if I was seeing +10xp for killing a skeleton, +5xp for each dig, +20xp for sinking a ship, etc.. I still feel accomplished in the Souls games for example even after losing my souls. For some reason I don't get that feeling in SOT. Plus most modern games are giving loot at a much faster pace than SOT. Think about the most successful games right now. Overwatch, the MOBAs, COD WW2, Star Wars, Borderlands, Destiny, soon to be Anthem, even the souls game provide rewards like items not timed to the gold(souls system). WE NEED TO BE BETTER REWARDED FOR OUR TIME. I would love the option to see damage numbers, to see xp gains, to see health bars, etc..

@a-trusty-mango said in We need more progression!:

@TarosD well seeing as I have a man that is actually going to discuss ideas with and not just call me a noob or git gud. I did have a idea for the PvE people crying for PvE only servers. I posted in in a big post in which I had asked another to list out why they thought progression was bad and they did not reply to me. Here is the part of that post about the PvE servers and the idea I had.

A simple solution to it is have factions as a possibility. Pirates and Trading Company. There would be no safe zones but you would rather have safe players to interact with. Simple little rework to things and the Pirate's faction is the Gold Hoarder and the Trading Company is Merchant. And Order would be the middle ground. Your sailing around and you see a galleon but it flies the colors of the Trading Company and you breathe a sigh of relief and wave and greet your fellows as it is not another raiding party out to steal the merchandise. Make it so Merchant Voyages give you crates of spices and tea and sugar instead of animals and you have to deliver it still to the different outposts. But then that rewards the pirates booty to sell to the Gold Hoarder and get a tidy profit. Where as the profit for the Trading Company would be the chests of gold. And those voyages could be reworked where instead of digging the treasure up. You are hiding it for the Gold Hoarder. He gives you the map and or riddle and then you have to take the chest he gives you and go hide it for them. You could of course sell it to make money but then you wouldn't gain any rep at all and would be unable to take a voyage of your own for a cooldown period as you angered the Hoarder.

I believe having two factions the players could join would alleviate the pressure of the people calling for PvE servers. No safe zones, but safe ships that are apart of your faction. That would help foster crew to crew interactions. And leave the PvP part cause if you saw a ship that did not fly your colors. You know it's a fight.

What an intriguing idea.

I can see no serious faults in your reasoning that would lessen the experience for anyone in particular and I agree with your sentiment, it is a fine concept.

It might also be interesting the explore the implications of going a step further despite the problems it would naturally present. I myself, would like to see a navy faction as well that would stand in direct opposition to the Pirate faction if possible or perhaps this would fall under the purview of the Merchants so as not to create a two versus one dynamic. The obvious counter would be other navies but then the game would grow wildly out of proportion

Then again perhaps the navy would earn its keep hunting bounties and the like. The problem I see with my own reasoning there would be that it, much like the pirates faction would would rely solely on the existence of an opposed group to earn its keep whereas the merchants could simply go about their business. As self-defeating a notion as it stands there may yet be some mechanics that could improve upon it but I am well aware it counters itself as of now.

@cupohemlock said in We need more progression!:

@tarosd said in We need more progression!:

@a-trusty-mango Ah! A Rusty Mango, the trusty label maker, a very old and cheap model to be sure but you seem locked on repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat ad infinitum. Must be a design flaw, but what can you expect from a second rate ad hominem?.

Come on Taros, ease up. You cannot fault other for personal attacks if you are going to issue them yourself.

Let's be civil and discuss the diversity of opinion as gentlemen.

Any yet if you would but continue to peruse the thread you would find amiable discourse is indeed in effect save for the continued ad hominems issued by that which shall not be named.

Would you so readily not refute the absurd in kind and in ridicule?

@cupohemlock said in We need more progression!:

@tarosd said in We need more progression!:

@cupohemlock said in We need more progression!:

@tarosd said in We need more progression!:

@a-trusty-mango Ah! A Rusty Mango, the trusty label maker, a very old and cheap model to be sure but you seem locked on repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat ad infinitum. Must be a design flaw, but what can you expect from a second rate ad hominem?.

Come on Taros, ease up. You cannot fault other for personal attacks if you are going to issue them yourself.

Let's be civil and discuss the diversity of opinion as gentlemen.

Any yet if you would but continue to peruse the thread you would find amiable discourse is indeed in effect save for the continued ad hominems issued by that which shall not be named.

Would you so readily not refute the absurd in kind and in ridicule?

Yes, I see that you softened your tone later, but the admonition remains valid. I am sure you will agree that we all may disagree without becoming disagreeable.

I most certainly do but only up to the point at which the personae non grata becomes unbearable ad absurdum.