How to Solve the Brig Issue

  • I know what you're thinking "But I thought they solved the instant brigging problem by adding a 3 man crew option", and you'd be right. RARE came up with a solution to people joining a crew and being instantly brigged because the crew didn't want a 3rd member, or was saving the spot for a friend. Bravo RARE! But that isn't the only problem with the brig. Instead of going all philosophical on you, I'll give you an example: I played in the open beta. On one of those voyages I joined a most civil, but silent, crew; and the 4 of us set sail for a Skeleton Fort. Upon arrival we had a prolonged and most gruesome battle with the fort's inhabitants: skeletons. We all fought long and hard and when the waves were completed, I almost singlehandedly fought and killed the Skeleton Captain and got his key. What fun times! The four of us opened the vault and took the treasure back to our ship, ready to turn it for a handsome reward. Upon succesfuly stoing our cargo and the crew boarding the ship, I began to raise the anchor with the cry "Let's go sell our loot!" But a crew member ran up and dropped the anchor again as soon as I had raised it. I said "Oh, we aren't leaving? Ok. What are we doing next?" I was promptly locked in the brig. I know not why, nor could I ask them why because they had no mics and could not have given me an answer. So I sat there. Asking them "Why am I in here?" "If you don't want to leave yet that's fine, just let me out" They replied by playing music in front of my cage. After a prolonged wait, and seeing that they had no intention of leaving the fort any time soon, I left the match, and lost all of the progress I had earned in the last hour. Let me say that again RARE: I LOST ALL THE PROGRESS I MADE IN THE LAST HOUR!

    This was infuriating and I resolved that if my only two options when playing Sea of Thieves were to either be locked in a brig while random strangers mocked and demeaned me, or lose all of the hard earned progress I had made in the last hour, that I simply wasn't going to buy the game. And I'm not the only one. All you have to do is search the key "Brig" in the forum and you'll see many other players saying that they liked the gameplay, but the Brig ruined it for them and they weren't going to buy the game. This is a problem RARE. You're discouraging gamers from buying your game! We gamers like to play games. We don't want to sit and allow random strangers on the internet to bully and abuse us, and prevent us from playing the game we spent $60 on! If I spend $60 on a game, I better have a 100% gurantee that I'll be able to play it 100% of the time I sit down to play it! We don't come home after a long day of work looking to have some fun, just to be either locked in a cell having people gloat over us, or lose all the progress we make. If we have a choice between that and another game we know we can sit down and play, no matter what, which one do you think we're going to choose?

    I liked Sea of Thieves (when I actually got to play it) and I really want to continue my adventure with your game! But I won't stand to be bullied, mocked, demeaned, and abused while playing a video game. I won't tolerate it. Many other people won't either. But you may say "Well, we have to have an anti grieffing measure that doesn't involve 'vote to kick from lobby' and is still lore friendly and immersive" I know what you mean. We should have the option to play (or not play) with whoever we want, while also not ruining other people's experience by kicking them from the lobby and making them lose their progress. There's a way to do this. Here it is.

    But first!

    What are the 3 main things that make a player part of your crew? (trust me, this is important)

    1. The green name tag over his head (as opposed to white)

    2. The fact that you can't shoot him (no friendly fire)

    3. You all get paid when one crew member turns in a chest.

    (Yes RARE, I know these aren't ALL the ways you're part of the crew, but I'm just keeping it simple, you can also vote on voyages)

    Now, on to the solution to grieffers!

    Instead of (not in addition to) the brig mechanic, you have "Vote to Walk the Plank", or in other words: Kick from Crew. NOT kick from lobby. Here's how it would work in game:

    Three crew members vote to kick from the crew the fourth man. A little animation occures, he walkes the plank lands in the water, yaty yaty yatta. The kicked person finds a mermaid and is teleported to his own ship, as if he was playing solo and his ship had sunk. Now he is no longer part of the crew. His name tag turnes white, his old crew can shoot at him and in all respects he is as any other player in the world, exept in one respect. When his old crew turns in their chests, he still get's paid like he was part of the crew. That way someone who does a lot of work, makes some progress and then get's kicked from the crew, won't suffer the terrible fate of losing thier progress, like I had to. In my situation, I would have much pereffered this mechanic. If my crewmates no longer desired to sail with me, they could get their wish, and I would not be denied the spoils of my labor. Win Win!

    But I forsee what you would say about this: "Our servers like to handle 16 ships and this would mess that up" I would say, it's a small price to pay to have a happy (and larger) player base. When you add the extra ship pushing the limit to 17, you just wait for one to leave the server and you're back down to 16. Not much more I can say on this, I'm the ideas guy, not the technical guy.
    You could also say "Does he keep getting paid for the old crews chests for the rest of the match?" The answer is no. Any chests aquired by the old crew after the kick will not pay out to him.

    Q. "How does the game know which chests are aquired before and which chests are found after the kick?"

    A. You already have a system to see who discovered a chest. If a chest that was discovered by your old crew gets turned in (by your old crew) then you get paid for it.

    Q. "But what about Stronghold Chests? Or chests you stole from another pirate ship? Or Shipwrecked Chests?"

    A. Now this is the hardest issue of all. Here's my answer. Don't you already have in place a way to detect whether a chest is on a chip? Just hijack that code, and any chests that where on your old crew's ship during your time with them get counted as chests owned by that crew; and thus you get a cut of the pot when they're turned in (by your crew). If your old crew is attacked and the chests are stolen after you were kicked, then of course you don't get paid when the other pirate crew turnes it in. I know it's a lot of technical talk, but I've thought this through as much as I could in four days and didn't want anyone at RARE to not have the answeres to their questions. Thank you for reading this exeedingly long post and I really hope RARE let's me play their game. I'd really like to. It was more fun than anything I've played recently. I'm looking forward to the removal of the brig and addition of pure enjoyment for the players.

    AAaaarggh!

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  • TLDR. Easier solution; don’t play with randoms. Find a crew.

  • So, if the server is full you cannot kick until another ship leaves?

  • @xcalypt0x there is no “kick” feature. Also servers are dynamic.

  • @y0ujerk said in How to Solve the Brig Issue:

    @xcalypt0x there is no “kick” feature. Also servers are dynamic.

    There is the hypothetical kick feature that he is suggesting.

  • You should sit into the brig, and go to do some homework. Troll the trolls.

  • They're adding private ships.
    /thread

  • There's too many issues to this. Firstly this would be a quick work around to fill a game lobby with friends and multi-ship with friends and dominate a session. You could invite a friend - remove him from the crew - and repeat. Do this until you have like 16 friends who are all friends and SHARE LOOT? yeah, major game break right there. Secondly, its really no different from just a normal kick. If someone is trying to have Galleon gameplay, getting constantly removed from a Galleon and forced into a Sloop probably isn't very relaxing.

    Overall the brig mechanic is a neat idea on paper - but really doesn't work. RARE may have the idea for having an "immersive and fun" moderation - but that's a fallacy. Moderation isn't supposed to be fun and it shouldn't be. It's intent is to prevent grievances and frustration in the most effective way. Anti-grief systems like voting to kick and etc. are pretty universally standard for a reason, an effective method doesn't just get forgotten.

    A lot of people also just want to play with a certain group of friends. SoT (at least in beta) had NO way of preventing randoms from joining at any point, not only does this make it impossible for a crew to prevent a troll from ever joining in the first place, it's frustrating if you're a 3-strong crew and a 4th comes online later - or a friend drops out due to a connectivity or otherwise - and gets replaced before they could get back in. I wager if a "private" crew for friends or invites only would minimize the misuse of the brig immensely in itself.

  • @joeninetee said in Monthly Insider Report - January 2018 (and yes, it's late, sorry):

    @niilrokk said in Monthly Insider Report - January 2018 (and yes, it's late, sorry):

    I'm not sure if this is what you meant by leaving with a galleon by yourself and inviting your friends after, but If private sessions could be a thing that would be great. I've had a situation where I felt really c****y cause a friend disconnected and I had to try to convince the person who joined the crew randomly in his place to leave the game nicely. This is awful but we kind of had to: because he wouldn't leave we decided to put him in the brig. This is a c****y reason to use the brig, but at the same time it's needed cause our friend gets left out of the fun. Honestly I shouldn't have to face this moral dilemma. There should be private crews but you should be able to SOS one or two players (like in Monster Hunter World) if you don't have enough people to sail the ship back to port. This might be what your saying though and that's good.

    This is pretty much the plan. We were initially working on it for launch, but it felt too risky to bring the change in at this late stage so it's on our 'very soon after launch' list. Anything which affects the balance on how many players are in a crew, on ships, and ultimately in a world is risky, because we don't know how players will end up using it, and all of these things feed into our server matchmaking & scalability on the back end of the game. As much as we wanted this in (and have done a lot of the work) we have to make tough decisions like this on the run up to launch to ensure a smooth launch for everyone.

    @joeninetee said in Monthly Insider Report - January 2018 (and yes, it's late, sorry):

    @niilrokk said in Monthly Insider Report - January 2018 (and yes, it's late, sorry):

    @dragotech123 I think that's a great idea. I just hate how because my friend got disconnected by no fault of his own I had to punish you for no fault of your own. It's honestly a feature that has to be added, I hate being that person who brigs people for no apparent reason. It's honestly not fair for anybody.

    You are 100% correct, and this is our bad. We'll be adding it ASAP after launch.

  • Brigs: There should be some kind of Brig time limit or amount of times. I think 5 minutes for 3 times in the Brig and your kicked off the ship onto another random ship on the same server so at least you can get revenge with your new shipmates. I would like to see who was the original person request the Brig sentence.

  • @zeo What is this in context to?

  • @ghost-0f-dawn
    Click the links to the thread, I believe it is page 3, and the dropdowns for the multiquote are seemingly bugged.
    Check the thread. It is basically saying "Private Ships were meant to be in, but running so quickly into so much it didn't make the launch cut, but will absolutely be revisited very soon after full release"

    Edit: Seems that the dropdowns are just slow-loading. See if they're working.

  • Ah yes I've found it. By the way, while quotes are just quotes and don't seem to send you right to the quoted comment., the forum page URL actually actively updates the number at the end by post #. Meaning the link will bring someone right to that post # in question you are looking at when copy/pasting it like so:

    https://www.seaofthieves.com/forum/topic/32085/monthly-insider-report-january-2018-and-yes-it-s-late-sorry/73?page=3

    Nifty.

    EDIT: Nevermind, quote links do the same thing, I was just clicking the wrong one like a noob. Carry on. No embarrassment to see here.

  • @ghost-0f-dawn said in How to Solve the Brig Issue:

    There's too many issues to this. Firstly this would be a quick work around to fill a game lobby with friends and multi-ship with friends and dominate a session.

    However multi-ship crews would have to be seriously meta'd, as the devs have stated that creating a fleet in-session is fine, but with no intention of multiple ships coming into a single lobby in order to create a 'friended armada' to dominate a session.

    The only way I could see to game this is by literally finding a solo galleon on the seas, hopping ship, and taking over the ship that way, through mutiny, or relinquishment of ship itself by the person inviting.

    Other than that, its safe to say an armada will be exclusive to pacts made via the ships in game, as it stands.

  • @zeo Which is fine and I agree, but I pretty much stand with RARE's decision on the PvP matters. Friend Armadas are a no-no.

  • Pretty good prank if you ask me.
    The same thing happened to me, was with a crew for about 45min, we got some chests slowly but steadily. it was hard with the lack of communication, me being the only one talking, trying to politely suggesting actions and just going with the flow mostly. After got some chests Suggested we hit up the outpost near by and was promptly locked in the brigg.
    I under stand that this usually means the crew are a group of friends on private coms and they are tired of you, but we had chests, so here's the big difference here, I just sat in the brigg sifting through my phone and eventually got credit for my chests then left.

    If this game had the typical just KICK function, I would not have been able to get credit for my progress.

  • @ghost-0f-dawn
    Not saying its not 'possible' or 'not allowed' but it would be certainly difficult given the session mechanics in place to let something like that happen, but the work required to pull it off would be extraordinary, and would very likely be a great social experience in the same, involving complete strangers in order to accomplish.

  • @zeo That's what I am saying. I agree with that. Randos yes. Friends no.

  • I'd been digging deep into the mind of your exploitative player lately... Just wondering how many hoops you'd have to jump through to dominate a session with friends, and it would take a serious silver tongue to accomplish, and in so... It is a loophole, and not against the code, so technically, fair play in the end.

  • This is the Primary reason why i play Solo. I don't want to have to deal with Players, who use these type of tactics.

    The Sloop maybe small but at least its your own. Playing solo maybe hard but at least it forces you to learn and think of your toe and find option that fully crews wouldn't think of.

    But for me i would really love to be able to play solo on the galleon to have the experience of using it more often.

  • Remove the Brig system all together then this wouldn't happen. The only reason for the Brig in the first place was to stop crew mates from dropping the anchor as shown in the video. their is no real reason for a brig system.

  • @ghost-0f-dawn Thank you for bringing up the issue of players dominating a game and sharing loot among more than a few players. That's something I didn't address and I'm gratefull that you brought it up. Also the fact that the kicked person wanted to play with a galleon and doesn't want to be forced in a sloop must also be addressed.

    I must make sure you didn't forget, however, that any treasure the old crew finds after the kick is not shared with the kicked person. Now, on to buisness. The game would preffer to put the kicked person in a galleon with an empty slot. If no empty slot available, into the Sloop he goes. This is the best we can do to maintain the kicked player's ship preference while allowing him to keep what he earned. I would rather be put in a Sloop than to be kicked from the lobby and forced to lose my progress. :) Also, they wouldn't be able to "fill a server" because the server is not empty. If they try to kick someone (who then goes into a galleon most likely, or a sloop) and then invite another person again and agian, they couldn't because the maximum number of players in a server would have been reached. All of the other players in the server (no matter where they are in the world) would have to be in on the scheme and leave at the same time, allowing the one crew to invite more members to the server. The one kicked player wouldn't be of much use to them either, because he most likely joined a full galleon crew; and he can't kick all of them and allow room for more people. The most that anyone could do was have a small group, who only got payment for the treasure before they were kicked, and would have to exit he game, wait for the original crew to find more treasure and then join again for the free payout. Only to find that there wasn't enough room in the server for them. This is a lot of work for a small reward, and most of those players would just play the game normaly because 1) It's more fun and 2) It would get you more money faster to just play it normaly.

    You could also impose restrictions like limiting the number of players that can collect on one chest, but these wouldn't be nessesary if the idea was implemented properly. And I'm afraid kicking from the lobby wouldn't be acceptable because it still makes a player lose his progress at the whim of strangers on the internet. This method is the best thing we have so far.

    "I wager a "private" crew for friends or invites only would minimize the misuse of the brig immensely in itself." I agree, it would. But I'm not trying to lessen it in that circumstance, I think RARE already half-way addressed that with their three-man crews and they'll probably add an invite only mode in the future. I'm trying to address this one instance of making progress and being forced to lose it. That should never happen and a lot of us won't buy the game if it's possible to happen. I've seen no other solution to this problem. This is the best one we have.

    Also! If you have any more feedback or see any potential holes in the system, please let me know! I want it perfect before RARE sees it, or it's implemented in game (which I hope it will be). Thanks for the real constructive criticism!

  • @zeo I'm afraid anyone who isn't an Insider (like myself) couln't read what your quotes were responding to. Could you add a little context?

  • @xcalypt0x No. You can kick, but you can't invite to infinity. Whether that's a cap on the number of players in a server, ships or just how many people can collect on a chest.

  • @aetherbones said in How to Solve the Brig Issue:

    If this game had the typical just KICK function, I would not have been able to get credit for my progress.

    Very good point.

  • @leonidasnerevar said in How to Solve the Brig Issue:

    @zeo I'm afraid anyone who isn't an Insider (like myself) couln't read what your quotes were responding to. Could you add a little context?

    Not sure how much of my own input on the subject is NDA, because of how the notes are, and who is allowed to see, so in short (Since Rare did not upload to their own Youtube...) here's a proxy stream-over-stream on the subject.

    Timestamped for your convenience @47:45

    https://youtu.be/uDyHWoRJmJ0?t=47m46s

  • to everyone and the OP. before the brig system trolling was a far bigger deal. You couldnt stop the crew majority trolls, or even stop the single troll. The brig system ended both, the majority ones you just sit in the brig till they leave or cash in the treasures you've collected then you leave, you wont lose progress, just fun playing time. The single troll which used to completely stall a session can now be dealt with to get back on the seas again.

    If kicking was an option trolling is back again with the crew majority trolls. Brigs end both types.

  • My apologies, but the person who made this video decided to speak over the important subject. I wish Rare would upload this video... At a professional level, its hard to quote and tiptoe around NDAs when this isn't currently on their YouTube..

  • @zeo Thanks for the Video Zeo. I think I got the point of what they were saying concerning the private ship system.

  • I pondered if there could be ways to escape the brig too.

    Maybe a wondering rat can eventually bring you the key after awhile or whenever a crew begins to gamble below the deck while having prisoners, the prisoners automatically attend the session as well and may gamble their freedom and a moment of immunity. Maybe each brig could have a variety of different locks to pick in case you have lockpicks and you end up there. At least that way you would have something to do down there. Maybe we should try to sink the ship somehow while down there too. Maybe each brig should only accept those without microphones to show the way. Haha

    The true solution to this is to stop trolling and getting a grip or add a sign to the brig that says "out of order". Otherwise there's no end to this.

  • @nanach It's kind of hard to believe you said this, but I'll work with you.

    I'm sure griefing was worse before the brig. I'm sure the brig lessened the amount of griefing, but it didn't take it away; and it introduced a NEW way to grief, creating as many problems as it solved (or half-solved). Now, here is the part I'm wondering about: "You couldnt stop the crew majority trolls, or even stop the single troll. The brig system ended both, the majority ones you JUST SIT IN THE BRIG till they leave or cash in the treasures you've collected then you leave, you wont lose progress, JUST FUN PLAYING TIME" I can't believe you said this. Since when do... How in the world can you... WHAT MAKE YOU THINK I WANT TO SIT IN THE BRIG??!! Have you ever been brigged? Did they gloat over you and mock you while you sat there in the power of a bunch of kids on the internet? That's humiliating and infurating. We're not going to just sit there and let it happen. We're going to leave. "you won't lose progress, just fun playing time" WHAT MAKE YOU THINK I WANT TO LOSE FUN PLAYING TIME?!?! How is that Ok? Did you read the OP? If we can't play all the time, we're not happy! Look, if the choice is between losing progress or losing playtime, then we just AREN'T GOING TO BUY IT. And that's the problem for RARE. They want to get as many sales as they can. This is preventing them from getting hundreds of thousands of dollars.

    Also: "If kicking was an option trolling is back again with the crew majority trolls". What do you mean "back again"? It's already here with the crew majority trolls who lock you in the brig! So either I'm being trolled by not being allowed to play, or I'm trolled by losing my progress. My system would get rid of BOTH of those problems that the brig currently has. No losing play time, and no losing progress.

  • @LeonidasNerevar
    You have 2 choices.

    Brig option: lose out on playing time, keep treasure and progress. You have the choice to leave. Lose Win situation.
    Kick option: Lose out on playing time, lose all treasure and progress. Lose lose situation

    which choice will you pick?

  • @axiom2213 said in How to Solve the Brig Issue:

    Remove the Brig system all together then this wouldn't happen. The only reason for the Brig in the first place was to stop crew mates from dropping the anchor as shown in the video. their is no real reason for a brig system.

    I agree that they should remove the brig system intirely. But we do need a way to stop crew members from griefing. There is a need for something to stop griefers, just not a brig. I think the kick from crew/Walk the Plank feature would solve all problems on both sides. The people who don't want to get griefed, and the people who made progress and didn't want to lose it.

  • @nanach said in How to Solve the Brig Issue:

    to everyone and the OP. before the brig system trolling was a far bigger deal. You couldnt stop the crew majority trolls, or even stop the single troll.

    Sounds like too simple matchmaking.

    The brig system ended both, the majority ones you just sit in the brig till they leave or cash in the treasures you've collected then you leave, you wont lose progress, just fun playing time. The single troll which used to completely stall a session can now be dealt with to get back on the seas again.

    Definitely too simple matchmaking. Good counter though. Not the best way to travel, but this makes me even more firmly believe that those who end down there really need some entertainment for the trip. Maybe have them be able to empty the grog barrel or have some type of a puzzle game there or something. A newspaper! Haha

    If kicking was an option trolling is back again with the crew majority trolls. Brigs end both types.

    I think this is why some individuals discovered brigs in the first place. The real ones I mean.

  • I think the brig works great! If you get put in the brig, just leave and join a new game. The only change I would want is that if your in the brig you don't get rep and gold for any voyages your crew hands in.

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