Sidegrades should be a thing, for the games sake

  • TheViPe268
    Seafarer

    I am very worried for the game because I like it a lot, but I feel most of the players wont stick for that long, or even buy the game considering the price.
    I get why we can't have upgrades and I agree! It would suck for newer players to get completely destroyed by veterans with super upgrades.
    But sidegrades are another story. Adding depth which this game severely needs. And if you don't know what sidegrade is in this situation, it is an "upgrade" that changes your character/ship in a way that it has positive and negative effect. For example, a sidegrade that makes your character have more ammunition, but makes your movement speed slower.
    Sidegrades would add a lot of needed depth and would give you an opportunity to playstyle you want.

    Add this ram to your ship to make more damage when colliding head on while taking less damage yourself, oh btw your ship is a lot slower.
    Hey, want to remove these two cannons from the sides and add them to the front?
    How about a rear cannon? Just trade that other cannonball barrel.
    Want an ammo pouch or some armor? Cool, but you are much slower now!

    The opportunities are almost endless and would be cool addition without making anyone more powerful than the other.

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  • Lizardheart
    Seafarer

    That does seem to be the direction they're going in terms of weaponry. That's why there's the Eye of Reach and Blunderbuss as sidegrades to the Flintlock Pistol.

  • Aenima123
    Founder

    @lizardheart a dit dans Sidegrades should be a thing, for the games sake :

    That does seem to be the direction they're going in terms of weaponry. That's why there's the Eye of Reach and Blunderbuss as sidegrades to the Flintlock Pistol.

    Not sure you're gonna have to buy the blunderbuss and the eye of reach in the final build of the game, it was the case in older build but not anymore, you have all weapons available from the start.

  • Lizardheart
    Seafarer

    @aenima123 I hope they stick with that approach. Everyone should have the same chance at PVP.

  • Aenima123
    Founder

    @lizardheart a dit dans Sidegrades should be a thing, for the games sake :

    @aenima123 I hope they stick with that approach. Everyone should have the same chance at PVP.

    Everyone is making such a fuss with that "leveling the playfield" thing to the point it blowed out of proportion imo.

    It seems people have lost every sense of perspective and drank every word said by Rare as if it were from the Holy Grail.
    There is a huge difference between a progression leveling system, where you stand absolutely NO CHANCE AT ALL when fighting a high level player if you are low level, and simple sidegrades that wouldn't prevent you to actually kill someone with more playtime that you.

  • Lizardheart
    Seafarer

    @aenima123 Eh, I have my opinion on it and I appreciate yours as well. My main idea is that I come from ye olden generations of games where everyone has the same shot. Yes, more experienced players will have an innate advantage but, for example, anyone can know the spawn of the shotgun in a 1v1 DM on E1M1 on original DOOM. That kinda thing is how I see it; you don't have to unlock said shotgun.

    Strange analogy, maybe, but it was the first thing that came to mind. Anyone has the same chance; it's just dependent on how they use the tools given to them.

  • Joda1123
    Ship Mate

    @thevipe268 i absolutely agree and think your idea is perfect.

  • TheViPe268
    Seafarer

    @lizardheart
    While I understand you I am sad to say those days are behind us. Only thing keeping the new Quake a afloat is the competitive side of it.
    And sidegrades don't just give you an edge over the opponent, if the opponent is clever he can use the weakness of the sidegrade to his advantage. This means the sidegrades should noticeable.

  • UVG Reign
    Founder

    When I heard this game was horizontal progression, sidegrades was the approach I was expecting. It sucks they followed horizontal progression in such a black and white mannor.

    It has been brought up before, but maybe itll be a surprise in an update down the line to liven things up when people are feeling stale

  • MisterDoomed

    This has been brought up several times in the last 24 hours and ill say the same thing here that i did there.
    Im ALL FOR THIS IDEA but you better be careful what you wish for.
    Some of us know naval combat like the back of our hands and we know how to build a ship build that will be unbeatable. If some poor souls are having a hard time now with all things equal, just wait till a hunter like me can specialize my ship !
    But like i said otherwise im all for this idea.

  • svetli97
    Seafarer

    you currently have the sidegrade of picking 2 out of 4 weapons.

  • Aenima123
    Founder

    @lizardheart a dit dans Sidegrades should be a thing, for the games sake :

    @aenima123 Eh, I have my opinion on it and I appreciate yours as well. My main idea is that I come from ye olden generations of games where everyone has the same shot. Yes, more experienced players will have an innate advantage but, for example, anyone can know the spawn of the shotgun in a 1v1 DM on E1M1 on original DOOM. That kinda thing is how I see it; you don't have to unlock said shotgun.

    Strange analogy, maybe, but it was the first thing that came to mind. Anyone has the same chance; it's just dependent on how they use the tools given to them.

    That has nothing to do with "older generations of games".
    You've got tons of old multiplayer games where a new player has no chance against a player with a lot of hours.
    And in the other hand, you've got plenty of modern games with no vertical progression.

    But it's not because you don't want a vertical progression in your game that you can't have things to unlock apart from cosmetics.

    Even in a game like Overwatch, you've got a lot of different gameplay from a hero to another. I get that you want to have the same chance as anybody else as a newbie, but that doesn't mean you have to offer the same gameplay to everybody (with the very small weapon choice exception), as it offers very little diversity. People can accept that in a game like PuBG because everything is centered around finding better gears during a game, in SoT, you don't even have that.

    So, to me, that game design choice doesn't make SoT an oldschool game, it makes it a casual game with a very short skill ceiling.

  • UVG Reign
    Founder

    @aenima123 IMO, it looks casual, but when people start really getting good at SOT, I think the skill ceiling will be huge with the different dynamics of mechanics. Almost quake like, but in a much bigger arena.

    I cant wait :)

  • Kustho
    Ship Mate

    Its the first cross platform titel PC-Xbox

    And in such the only game I can actually play with a lot of friends, including my wife.

    Did you take that in count?

  • Nightmare247365
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    @aenima123 True, you don't have to buy them, at least in the beta, but you still have to actively make a choice if you want a short single shot, a spread shot, or a distance. Each have an advantage, disadvantage. I know plenty of times I had jumped off my ship to realize that I had my Reach and not my blunderbuss. I put myself at a disadvantage. I loved that. I cannot just switch weapons on the fly. I think it is very good.

    Having a ship design like this could be fine too.

  • TedimShy
    Commander
    Insider

    Im all up to sidegrades, actually I've comented on posts about this before.
    The only "problem" is that trades can be hard to balance, and there will be always a meta/op style.
    So I'd rather prefer having the team focus on more events/content than being to busy balancing the game.

  • Aenima123
    Founder

    @nightmare247365 a dit dans Sidegrades should be a thing, for the games sake :

    @aenima123 True, you don't have to buy them, at least in the beta, but you still have to actively make a choice if you want a short single shot, a spread shot, or a distance. Each have an advantage, disadvantage. I know plenty of times I had jumped off my ship to realize that I had my Reach and not my blunderbuss. I put myself at a disadvantage. I loved that. I cannot just switch weapons on the fly. I think it is very good.

    Having a ship design like this could be fine too.

    Yes, everything could be accessible to everyone from the start, and could mix and match to suit their favorite playstyle. That would include weapons and ship parts.

    With that, you're going to have a meta ruling over other combinations, sure, but that is a fair sacrifice in order to offer much more depth to the gameplay imo.

  • Grumpie Bear29

    @thevipe268
    This is pointless. Look at league of legends for example. You’re buying items that have stat benefits, but if you buy them you can’t buy others due to a slot limit. Everything gets tested out until it becomes cookie cutter and almost everyone chooses the same build every game. The same is true for games like heroes of the storm. You have options, but if you do your research you can come out with one build that has a higher chance to win than others and is used 75% of the time or more. We don’t need any upgrades that will ultimately be tested until it is extremely obvious which choices give you the highest percentage advantage.

    We have only experienced the Beta. It’s not s finished product and many many more things are already on the horizon to be added. We are getting a new faction, new melee weapons, new outfits, new instruments, new vanity pets, ships that can be customized with looks and a kraken. This isn’t even the complete list of things we are getting.

    Pubg is basically the same game over and over and over again with some RNG or plane path and loot spawn thrown in and it still has a massive player base. If the core game is fun it will be played and have a large player base that supports it. If you think the game is fun then play it and have fun.

  • Nightmare247365
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    @aenima123 My BIGGEST concern for this game is a Meta. I don't want any meta in this game. I play too many other games which just become the exact same game each and every single outage because there is a meta.

    Currently, I cannot determine if there is a meta with the guns. I feel like the Blunderbuss was overpowered, but now I feel like they balanced it from Stress to Beta.

    I don't want these forums to turn into a "guys I am new to the game, what is the most powerful thing I can get."

    So if you even think there will be a meta, I am out! I made my post earlier supporting this, but I hate the freaking META so much. I think this game is designed amazingly without additional add ons because there is no meta.

    Allow me to explain why... This game is beautiful. This game has so much customization that it will make one's head hurt from the possibilities, but the moment you start adding +1 stats to anything even if they are balanced everyone runs the same thing. For example, let's say the pros and cons are boots that make you run faster, but you cannot carry as much loot. But you have a scurvy dog coat that makes you carry more two chests. Now everyone will be wearing the exact same combination of things. There is no creativity anymore in games. At least this game without even sidegrades allows people to be unique in their characters.

    Sorry, but thank you for changing my mind. I am out for all sidegrades, linear progression, etc.

  • Inbred Chimera

    I'm trying to decide right now whether RARE has rejected all statistical transgression as purely a game design choice or as a means of avoiding the issue of balancing the game.

    The option to customize can distract from other content, and this can be a negative in a game like The Witness or Journey which are very pure and aesthetic single player games, but it's very rare customizaiton is a bad thing in many other styles of game. It just needs balancing is all.

    SoT is multiplayer, it's very player driven, rather than story / glory driven (the legendary thing honestly strikes me as a bit of a gimmick at the moment). Its the players that make the game here. This distances SoT quite significantly from other games that benefit from cutting out customizations and loadouts and such.

    Customization isn't just about finding out what works best for you, it's about expression, philosophy and adventure. It's another dimention to explore.

    I don't think a lack of tangible customization is an inherently bad decision for the game, but I do think it's absence sets the bar extremely high for the games other elements, those being the renown, quests, player interactions and cosmetics, and honestly none of those cross me as overly impressive at the moment.

    I think to be safe you can always get away with a mild nerf to any 'sidegrades' that deviate from what would be considered normal in the game. For example;
    You design a galleon and remove 1 sail, the vanity chest, the ram and the railings on deck and swap the anchor thing for a 2 man one, and this give you lets say 15 design points that you spend entirely to buy 3 swivel cannons. A galleon's standard cannon count is 4 per side, and each can over that increase the reload times of all cannonc slightly. Thats a mild nerf so that the more extreme a ship's design, the less effecient. Same with weapons. Allow a player to carry 5 pistols, but each extra one over the intended single pistol slows them more and more.

    Maybe not that exact example but it's the concept that's important. It could just be a mild system but it would still be better than nothing.

  • Trenix90
    Marauder
    Insider

    @nightmare247365 said in Sidegrades should be a thing, for the games sake:

    @aenima123 My BIGGEST concern for this game is a Meta. I don't want any meta in this game. I play too many other games which just become the exact same game each and every single outage because there is a meta.

    Currently, I cannot determine if there is a meta with the guns. I feel like the Blunderbuss was overpowered, but now I feel like they balanced it from Stress to Beta.

    I don't want these forums to turn into a "guys I am new to the game, what is the most powerful thing I can get."

    So if you even think there will be a meta, I am out! I made my post earlier supporting this, but I hate the freaking META so much. I think this game is designed amazingly without additional add ons because there is no meta.

    Allow me to explain why... This game is beautiful. This game has so much customization that it will make one's head hurt from the possibilities, but the moment you start adding +1 stats to anything even if they are balanced everyone runs the same thing. For example, let's say the pros and cons are boots that make you run faster, but you cannot carry as much loot. But you have a scurvy dog coat that makes you carry more two chests. Now everyone will be wearing the exact same combination of things. There is no creativity anymore in games. At least this game without even sidegrades allows people to be unique in their characters.

    Sorry, but thank you for changing my mind. I am out for all sidegrades, linear progression, etc.

    There will ALWAYS be metas. This is why games are supposed to be updated regularly and why they are intending to do so. People are smart, they will always figure out the best way to do everything. This wont ever change, no matter how many limitations you put on people. The most the developers can do is change it up so metas continuously change, making it difficult to figure out the best thing at the current time.

  • KigreTheViking
    Founder

    @thevipe268

    So when escaping someone they're just constantly going to blast you off the boat!

    No thanks. If they add front cannons its gonna change the entire dynamic of combat and escaping.

  • TheViPe268
    Seafarer

    @grumpie-bear29
    Uhh you understood completely wrong, LoL items make your champion better, while there is sidegrades every item boosts your champ in some way. Same with HotS when leveling up.
    Sidegrades are supposed to offer you options to play how you want, not to make your character or ship better.

  • TheViPe268
    Seafarer

    @kigretheviking said in Sidegrades should be a thing, for the games sake:

    @thevipe268

    So when escaping someone they're just constantly going to blast you off the boat!

    No thanks. If they add front cannons its gonna change the entire dynamic of combat and escaping.

    Don't rip your boxers, it was an EXAMPLE. You know.
    And the cannonball pushback is a problem on its own now that you mentioned it.

  • KigreTheViking
    Founder

    @thevipe268

    Don't rip your boxers, i just gave an example of what would happen. You know.

  • TheViPe268
    Seafarer

    @kigretheviking
    Uhh, okay. Sorry for what ever I did to offend you.

  • Grumpie Bear29

    @thevipe268
    I actually understood completely. The problem with sidegrades is they are never truly 100% balanced. There is one that is always statistically better, and then it becomes the go to option. Let’s say we give your cannons the ability to do twice as much damage when you shoot it, but now it takes twice as long to reload. The overall damage per second is the same, but you have much higher burst damage potential. You can now use s single canon shot to wipe out an entire wave of a skeleton fort, and lastly it uses 50% less of your canon balls to inflict as much damage.
    I’m realistic about the balancing scale and I understand that the options you have will ultimately be tested into oblivion until only one real choice stands as the most optimal.

    Why don’t you give me an example of a sidegrades that you feel is completely balanced?

  • Nightmare247365
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    @trenix90 Sure there will be a meta because players are smart. However, there does not need to be additional items that help increase the capability of a meta. So right now the game is in a very good state. The game is fairly balanced ship to ship, player to player. Swordfight mechanics, minus the locking, are solid. Aiming is solid.

    No need to change ships with more armor or more weapons to the game when things seem very balanced. Now if someone figures out a meta way then of course the devs should make a fix, but not adding new things in right now would be perfectly fine as well.

  • KigreTheViking
    Founder

    @thevipe268

    You didnt, we're just talking back and forth. No problem here.

  • RightiousNewb

    Cosmetics are as sidegrade as it gets, hence the term "horizontal progression" if looking cooler and having a fancy ship don't appeal to you I'm sorry.

    I have NEVER played a game with true sidegrades, because games are soooo dissected in today's world. There is always a meta that breaks out where players are punished for not knowing or following the current OP. Is it unexciting not to have those choice? No. Simply put, it feels like the game isn't complex, but neither are the games with these systems, they're just annoying.

    The best sidegrades I could hope for are "sovereign cutlass: +3 attack speed, -3 attack speed". I don't want another game with a meta that dictates my choices if I'd like to play competitively.

  • Joe Krakatoa
    Commander
    Insider

    It's not about sidegrades or upgrades.
    It's about what you do with the tools Rare provides. Does it add fun and mitigate toxicity? Does it create a barrier? Does a smart newbie have a chance against a veteran sea-dog?

  • OneEyedHeathen
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    To me, at least at the start rare wants the "sidegrades" to be your crew, the people you pick and the roles they take. You will have players who are better at using the cannon, versus ones who are better at manning the stern. Others who are better at Naval strategies, following orders or people who are deadly in close quarters. When all these players make up crews, different crews will play differently mechanically, strategically and through straight up determination.

    Because of the designs and tools/systems Rare has given us, fighting each ship truly does feel different, every encounter is unique. This is something we don't get from a lot of MP games these days I feel. And because of this it doesn't need anymore side grades from a ship perspective. I would like to see some more weaponry options for CQC.

    Once ship captaincy comes in a few months, I would be interested to know if we may see something more along the lines of what OP is asking for, to add more layers to the naval combat. I am really wondering what owning our ships looks like to separate it from what we have now.

  • TheViPe268
    Seafarer

    @grumpie-bear29
    It is the developers job to update the game and it's meta. I don't know if you have noticed but there was a meta already, there always is and there is always those who wont go with the meta.
    One thing to make sidegrades more balanced is to make them visible. For example, if the enemy ship has a ram, you will know its slow and you'll try to get behind it or out run it. The ship with ram should try to use islands to get as close as possible and surprise the opponent. Or tank the damage and drop of few guys when ramming.
    So in different situations the sidegrade can be good or bad which makes you plan your approach more.

  • Aenima123
    Founder

    @nightmare247365 a dit dans Sidegrades should be a thing, for the games sake :

    @aenima123 My BIGGEST concern for this game is a Meta. I don't want any meta in this game. I play too many other games which just become the exact same game each and every single outage because there is a meta.

    Currently, I cannot determine if there is a meta with the guns. I feel like the Blunderbuss was overpowered, but now I feel like they balanced it from Stress to Beta.

    I don't want these forums to turn into a "guys I am new to the game, what is the most powerful thing I can get."

    So if you even think there will be a meta, I am out! I made my post earlier supporting this, but I hate the freaking META so much. I think this game is designed amazingly without additional add ons because there is no meta.

    Allow me to explain why... This game is beautiful. This game has so much customization that it will make one's head hurt from the possibilities, but the moment you start adding +1 stats to anything even if they are balanced everyone runs the same thing. For example, let's say the pros and cons are boots that make you run faster, but you cannot carry as much loot. But you have a scurvy dog coat that makes you carry more two chests. Now everyone will be wearing the exact same combination of things. There is no creativity anymore in games. At least this game without even sidegrades allows people to be unique in their characters.

    Sorry, but thank you for changing my mind. I am out for all sidegrades, linear progression, etc.

    Finding the new meta for a lot of people is part of what makes those game so addictive. You don't want to be involved with that ? Just do what everybody do and ride along, that wouldn't change a thing for you. For everybody else, that would make a big difference.

  • Aenima123
    Founder

    @grumpie-bear29 a dit dans Sidegrades should be a thing, for the games sake :

    @thevipe268
    I actually understood completely. The problem with sidegrades is they are never truly 100% balanced. There is one that is always statistically better, and then it becomes the go to option. Let’s say we give your cannons the ability to do twice as much damage when you shoot it, but now it takes twice as long to reload. The overall damage per second is the same, but you have much higher burst damage potential. You can now use s single canon shot to wipe out an entire wave of a skeleton fort, and lastly it uses 50% less of your canon balls to inflict as much damage.
    I’m realistic about the balancing scale and I understand that the options you have will ultimately be tested into oblivion until only one real choice stands as the most optimal.

    Why don’t you give me an example of a sidegrades that you feel is completely balanced?

    Yeah but that's okay, as long as something isn't completely OP, and if it is, a patch to nerf it and voila. It's a little price to pay in order to add a lot of gameplay diversity don't you think ?

    "It's never going to be 100 % balanced so get rid of every customization". That to me, seems to be the laziest way to deal with things.

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