So have we been lied to?

  • Seiino
    Commander
    Insider
    Founder

    I'd like to preface this with the disclaimer that I have been on these forums since the very start and have avidly supported this game in every way I can. So whilst normally I maintain a steady bias, I find it impossible to stick by back peddling such as this.

    So recently I read an article, and my observations are based purely on that, so please do correct me if I'm wrong.

    Early on, it was confirmed, amongst very few other things that we would be able to create our own character, own our own ships and have access to more than just a sloop and a galleon. Sadly, I don't have sources but I'm sure a quick search of the forums will find you direct confirmation of such features.
    But now, according to this article, these features; the very features that made this game such an attractive concept to myself and I'm sure many others, have been back peddled upon and retconned to suddenly be false.
    As far as I can tell, we now have to deal with our choice of a "random character" which is fine from the "Role Play it!" standpoint, but the problem clearly remains that I will have a much harder time getting attached to a husk created by randomly smashing numbers together until a few features are decided. Although maybe that's just a personal issue.
    Next, I find out that I won't own a ship. No, merely it will spawn and have my customisation applied to it, without any feeling of ownership and seemingly without any work to achieve it. Which, of I remember rightly, was strictly stated to not be how they wanted it to happen. Not only this but so far as I can tell, if you're not happy with the tiny sloop or the fairly large galleon, you're out of luck because those are your only choices.

    I hate to say it, but the differences between the game I signed up for and the game I'm being given have suddenly pushed them leagues apart from each other, and surely I'm not the only one feeling so downtrodden about the sudden lack or features.
    After this and the Beta with fewer features than the Alpha, it's really wearing my faith in this project thin.
    And you can claim that I'm merely a skeptic who doesn't deserve the full game but I think the issue is more that I have not remained blind to the U-Turns and mistakes that are being made with this game.

    Microtransactions I can live with. Key features being excluded though, is a little much for me.

    -A Lone Corsair

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  • Capt Explodabob
    Master
    Founder

    So have we been lied to?

    Nah.

  • Tre Oni
    Marauder
    Insider
    Founder

    You say backpedaling, but have no sources.

    I definitely don't remember ever being promised a character creator, or even more ships than even just the galleon when the game started catching attention. Sloop as we know was much later.

    We've been countlessly promised being able to forge our own pirate and adventures. And be the type of player/pirate you want to be. And many times promised being able to make a ship "ours" by outfitting it and differentiating it from others through customization. I guess if you like reading between several lines to try and confirm things for yourself before they're confirmed then yeah you would probably believe without a doubt that their words mean "full character customization, and lots of different ships confirmed".

    I've seen no backpedaling, and the words been floating around for months now that the "creator" might not be a full creator as many are used to.

    Regardless, not seeing backpedaling on anything.

  • LogansDadToo
    Founder

    @carcinogenetxc
    If it was early on, then i doubt very much those things were 'confirmed'.
    I don't recall them ever saying there would be more than 2 ship types, but i could be wrong.
    Owning your own ship, well, to begin with no you don't. But if i'm correct in understanding what has been revealed in the recent interviews, then later in the game you do own your own ship.

  • Mad Mordechai
    Commander
    Insider
    Founder

    @carcinogenetxc Other than "Have the freedom of being the pirate you want to be" having been thrown around for a long time, I don't think they lied directly about the current system, they just didn't disclose and elaborate much on it. It's always been known that you only will be able to select from a range of characters, but with the current new info that you have no control over anything at all within that system except for generating a completely random pirate every time and hope you get one you like, I don't think I am reaching when I say the current character creation system encourages or lets you do just that very much, though.

  • Rivia1656
    Seafarer

    I would say, yes and no.

    I do not remember whether Rare had told us that we would get to own a ship. So therefore I will not discuss that.

    However, I completely agree with your notion about customization of your character. Rare told us that we would get to express the way we want to express our self with our character. We would get to choose how we would look and show ourselves to others.

    For me and many other this includes body, face, eyes, nose, hair etc. We do not need it to go as in dept as with Skyrim as an example.

    But being forced to have to pick a canvas at random and hope it is mostly to your liking is really off putting for me. Why do we not get the option to choose ourselves, and have the random option for those who do not care how their character looks?

    I hope with all my heart that Rare will allow us to create our own pirate and that what has been shown in articles online was just a snippet of what is yet to come!

  • Ethnine
    Founder

    @carcinogenetxc I was always afraid things like this might happen. Its only of the reasons I've remains so skeptical and opinionated on Rare's choices. I've actually made a thread discussing the issues I have with the lack of ship ownership. How Mike Chapman can go from saying "We want your ship to feel like an extension of you as a character..." to "eh, lets just give them a randomly spawn husk of a ship at the start of every session..." blows my mind. What idiot thought that was a good idea?

    Hopefully what IGN saw, and what was reported on was simply a place-holder to how real ship ownership should be. Rare, you told us we started the game as a ragtag poor pirate, here are your exact words actually "You'll begin your journey across the Sea of Thieves as a ragtag wanderer ready to complete voyages, form bonds with other pirates and amass your very own hoard. Whether you prefer to sail solo or as part of an adventure-hungry crew, you'll soon find yourself on the way to becoming a stone cold pirate legend." Part of this journey you're creating is the players ship and how it progresses with you on this journey!

    Anyhow, I agree with the OP. And hope to god that these people from the press are wrong about ship ownership is more than just a empty meaningless object you spawn in at the start of every game session.

  • LogansDadToo
    Founder

    @ethnine
    If You own the ship & have 3 others playing, when you log off what happens to your ship?
    Do the other 3 get to keep using your ship until they all log off or does your ship disappear as soon as you leave?
    As this isn't a persistent world it makes it more difficult to 'own' something!

  • Nicky7132
    Captain
    Insider

    @carcinogenetxc I think they will give you a character from the 8 then it will move into another screen to edit hair, hair colour, eye colour, scars etc.

  • Lothaes
    Master
    Insider

    Even though Character customisation isn't under the players full control, I believe that rare have looked at a unique way to allow us to pick the right character for the pirate we had in mind through there generated ones. Also I believe this will stop players creating lookalikes of there favourite fictional pirates (mentioning no names)

    There are other sips other than a sloop and the galleon, we just have to earn it? I hardly say lying, more of a different approach to most developers these days no?

  • Ethnine
    Founder

    @logansdadtoo the same thing that happened during the beta, they have to pick up one of their own ships to continue playing. Pretty simple and easy to understand from my perspective. And it makes sense doesn't it?

  • Kruqnut

    @ethnine ship ownership doesn't make sense in the game, do you want to have to wait for 3 people who don't want to own ships to queue with 1 person who wants to use their ship?

    how does everyone have their own ship but still have a game designed around 4 people working together on a single ship. You were never going to get your own ship, they have always just talked about customizing the ships, which is definitely in.

  • Kruqnut

    @ethnine every post you make, and you double post the same c**p week after week, copy and pasting your stuff word for word. You're constantly complaining, putting words into the devs mouth because they didn't do exactly what you speculated they said they would do.

    If you played the beta you knew what the idea of the game was, now you demand it be a certain way, that fundamentally breaks the spirit of the game.

    If everyone had their own ship, the beta would of sucked, and game would of flopped already, 4 people on a ship is what makes the game fun

  • LogansDadToo
    Founder

    @ethnine
    That is a problem though & not fair on the crew you are playing with!
    What if they were 3 randoms & you had been working together well, you have 20 chests on your ship, but have to go straight away.
    By your logic, the 3 would just drop into the ocean with 20chests floating around them, as your ship disappears from existence. Not really an ideal scenario!

  • Ethnine
    Founder

    @kruqnut I copied this from my thread:

    • Friend 1:
      Has a Green and White Ship. We call him the trader, as we use his ship for trading missions mostly.

    • Friend 2:
      Has a Black and Red Ship, with a skeleton figure head. We call him the murder, since we take his ship out when our goal is to take out other ships and players.

    • Friend 3:
      Has a Blue and Black Ship, with a Mermaid for a figure head. We call him and his ship the explorer! We normally take it out to explore and find cool objects and places.

    • Friend 4:
      My ship has Red Sails and a dark wood hull. We use mine to do Order of Souls missions, and questing.

    Ship ownership isn't a choice, the ship is part of your character. The customization's you make on your ship persist between sessions. Or they should. Meaning if I have a skull of a Kraken hanging in my captains cabin, my friends will look at it and remember that adventure. And if a random player joins us, he/she will be able to ask how we got that which would lead into a story of an adventure we had. As it stands now, from my understanding of the articles. None of this will persist, you will have to start the game jump into a session, and re-decorate your ship before setting off. Which could not only be time consuming, but I imagine some players just won't do it at all.

    I cannot believe some of you are perfectly fine with ship ownership not being a thing. We are playing a game to become a pirate legend, how on earth do you think the Black Pearl became a legendary ship? It didn't just come that way, its renown was earned along side its captain. There's a story in the journey. And Rare has said from the very beginning that a players ship would be an extension of themselves. Now we hear that isn't really true, until a post release update is made and you grind your way to a certain level? Come now.

  • Kruqnut

    @ethnine you and your friends start a session, then choose the customization options to make the ship you want to sail.

    You want ship ownership, k, then every time you get sunk you lose everything on your ship, since it was the one ship you owned, then you just with a blank ship again.

    I mean whats so different between fully customizing your ship, and owning a ship, other than with full customization everyone in the game session gets to partake in the ship they're going to sale.

    Its kind of rude to demand that the other 3 people in your game session ride on your style of ship. The game is supposed to fun for everyone evenly, not more fun for 1 out of 4 people in the game.

  • Kruqnut

    @ethnine most of jack sparrows fame came from his activities on other people's ships, stolen ships, off ship. His fame wasn't centered around the black pearl.

    You are a pirate, not a pirate ship.

  • Ethnine
    Founder

    @logansdadtoo Huh? You're talking about something different. Nothing that I am suggesting would change however we saw it work in the closed beta. You understand that? Nothing from the closed beta would be changed from what I am suggesting. Got it? Good. What I am suggesting is that your ship (the one you took to fight the kraken, the one you took to take out that skeleton king, the one you made hundreds of trade mission with) its cutomization's would persist with you.

    If you leave a game with a bunch of randoms, then your ship would remain until they spawned in one of their own or left the session completely. Just like it worked in the closed beta. Remember how it worked then? If I logged out and my friend was on a Sloop, he would continue to be on the Sloop until he logged out. If it was my Sloop, it would have a certain color and my customization's, if he left and joined back in, he would have his Sloop with his colors and customization's.

  • Kruqnut

    @Ethnine so because someone might not partake in the initial ship customization, you think only 1 out of 4 people should be able to customize the ship they sail in. lol

    Mainly what you're demanding is to be able to dictate by yourself, what the ship the other 3 people are sailing in looks like.

    seems pretty selfish imo

  • Kruqnut

    @ethnine the reason ships stayed around, is because everyone in the game session "owned" it, when the captain would leave a new captain was chosen.

    I like it alot better everyone can participate in the customization than just 1 person gets to customize the ship

  • LogansDadToo
    Founder

    @ethnine
    Look at it another way, when we 1st start the game we are a new recruit, a wannabe pirate.
    How could you afford a ship if you have no wealth??
    So, you start out with a shared vessel that you can customise with your crew. Do a few quests, earn some gold etc.
    The next time you log on, you join a different crew that is more experienced & has a nicer looking ship.
    Now, if you had your own ship, you wouldn't get that opportunity as you'd want to stay on your ship & no experienced crew will want to leave their ship.
    The further you progress, the more gold you earn, until you reach your pirate legend status. By this time you would be able to afford to purchase a ship!
    To me, that makes more sense.
    How would a new pirate with no gold be able to afford a Galleon?

    If nothing would change from the ships in the beta, your last point about the randoms wouldn't work!
    What if the randoms didn't log off, or a steady stream kept joining & your ship stays fully crewed?
    How do you get your ship back if there is a crew using it?
    I know of crews that have kept galleons afloat for over 48hrs m8, so it can & would be an issue!

  • Kruqnut

    ship ownership just seems to go against the spirit of the game, which is 4 people, who have no defined roles, all having equal authority to do whatever.

    If ships have owners, then ships have captains, an authoritarian structure, thats not fun, this game is about fun with people as equals.

  • Avirex Idyll
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    @kruqnut said in So have we been lied to?:

    ship ownership just seems to go against the spirit of the game, which is 4 people, who have no defined roles, all having equal authority to do whatever.

    If ships have owners, then ships have captains, an authoritarian structure, thats not fun, this game is about fun with people as equals.

    This is a very good point, and one that I did not think of when I initial thought of how ship ownership would work within SoT. While I, like many others, had the wrong idea regarding ship ownership, I am coming to understand, accept, and embrace this new concept.

  • Ethnine
    Founder

    @kruqnut But the ship is supposed to be personification of what a player has done in the world of Sea of Thieves. Not just an intangible meaningless object you use as a tool. Your development as a character should naturally build into you and YOUR ship. How does one do this if your ship is just a blank object at the start of each session? Sure, you could argue that the end-game is where this comes into play, but does that mean your ship and the cutomization's you acquired in that journey are meaningless? They shouldn't be.

    Ship ownership is a HUGE part of Sea of Thieves, and has been from the very beginning.

    Just go listen to Mike Chapman talk about it would you? Its driving me insane that you're not clearly understanding my point:

    @42:11

  • Ethnine
    Founder

    @kruqnut You do know that the endgame is all about being the captain of a ship right? Like that is the end goal, that you will be this authoritarian person. Like that is the point of this game, that is what you're leading up to. And they are going to build upon that idea further into the game development.

  • Avirex Idyll
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    @ethnine said in So have we been lied to?:

    @kruqnut But the ship is supposed to be personification of what a player has done in the world of Sea of Thieves. Not just an intangible meaningless object you use as a tool. Your development as a character should naturally build into you and YOUR ship. How does one do this if your ship is just a blank object at the start of each session? Sure, you could argue that the end-game is where this comes into play, but does that mean your ship and the cutomization's you acquired in that journey are meaningless? They shouldn't be.

    Ship ownership is a HUGE part of Sea of Thieves, and has been from the very beginning.

    Just go listen to Mike Chapman talk about it would you? Its driving me insane that you're not clearly understanding my point:

    @42:11

    I am confused on your point.

    Mike Chapman states "the ship is owned by the crew, there is definitely things we are looking at for the future in terms of ship ownership. Ships becoming personifications are something we are looking at."

    So, how ship ownership currently stands is in line with what he just stated.

  • shaggiedo
    Founder

    I will attempt to answer the question - have we been lied to?

    I'm not sure, would be my most honest response. This game does not feel like the game I first heard about and was drawn to. Sure its similiar but it is different. So what changed, here's a few of my jumbled thoughts on the matter.

    • Money, yes its always about the money.
    • Rare do seem slightly confused.
    • Microsft came calling, and said enough is enough where's the game.
    • Rare were too damn confident and possibly lost their way.
    • Contrary to what they say - they only listen to the community when it suits them, or they get completely drowned out.
    • Rare are trying to be too different - with everything.
    • There seems to be a lot of scrambling, lots of throwing things together at the last minute.

    When I think of Rare now and SoT in particular, I think of No Mans Sky, Destiny, Mass Effect Andromeda (just to name a few). To me, the most damning thing is the silence of Rare, and reliance of third parties to fly their flag. An all too familiar sign that something is not quite right.

  • CaseSugar401098

    @sundew-np said in So have we been lied to?:

    @carcinogenetxc I think they will give you a character from the 8 then it will move into another screen to edit hair, hair colour, eye colour, scars etc.

    Nope, if you don't like those 8, you can reroll another 8 randoms over and over until you find one you want to keep.

    The one you keep is a permanent decision though.

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