Melee Update: New Melee Weapons Revisited

  • It’s been over two years since new personal weapons were added to the game, and many would agree that the weapons update added a lot of depth and freshness to the game and caused a resurgence of players. I believe it’s due time to reconsider more weapon variety.I have some suggestions in hopes they will be considered.
    Firstly, I want to address the state of weapons in the game as it stands. The block mechanic on the sword has become somewhat redundant, especially since the last weapon update which added more ranged weapons. This is meant to be a pirate game after all, and there is a thrilling charm to having a naval hand to hand duel. My following suggestions will be melee weapon ideas that all have blocking mechanics that I believe will help improve the overall health of the combat system despite the balancing challenges. Balance is important, but Rare needs to continue to take the risks they are taking in the upcoming seasons to continue to improve the foundation of the game. After all, with time, the developers will know what is needed to balance the weapons.

    The Boarding Axe:
    We need to have another look at the boarding axe. It has models in the game and it’s been suggested since launch, and constantly shot down. It’s time Rare has another look at it. The ability to pry boards off of a ship hull would be fun and helpful for solo players who don’t have a crew that can continuously pump holes. The time it takes to pry a board off can be tweaked and balanced of course. The axe should also be able to chop the destructible ship parts (mast, helm, and capstan). The amount of chops/time required can also be tweaked. The axe would swing a two hit combo, and have slightly less range than a cutlass but more damage and a wider arc. It would also be capable of a charged overhead cleave by holding the primary attack input, similar to the cutlass lunge or the throwing knife heavy attack. This heavy attack would break the enemies guard, again similar to the cutlass lunge. The axe would not be able to hop like the cutlass when blocking. Finally, as a suggestion which may or may not have any relevance, it might be interesting if the axe pulled enemies closer after they block a full combo, rather than knocking booth players back as the cutlass does. This would be unique and might spice up melee combat.
    I understand many players feel that prying boards with the boarding axe would create a toxic boarding meta, but the time required to pry boards can be easily adjusted for balance, and it gives solo players a real chance to have some more boarding fun. This is a silly pirate game, we want to fight on ships, not spend half our time on a loading screen waiting for a mermaid to take us back to our sloop after jumping off the ship we boarded so we can shoot more cannons.

    The Boarding Pike:
    A more accurate name for this would be the anti-boarding pike (explanation below). Again, this has been suggested before but it is another weapon that could help bring unexpected and exiting combat sequences to the game. The pike would stab with a single long range attack (possibly long enough to hit a player on the bottom of a galleon ladder)(no combo), and have a secondary heavy lunge like the sword, the difference being that the pike is unable to perform a leap by blocking before lunging. By holding block on the pike, the player will drive the but down into the ground and either slow or disable their movement (depending on balancing). While in this guard, they can block attacks (the animation would show the spear redirecting the attack similar to an epee fencer rather than holding it to the side as to prevent unnatural animations). Also while in this guard, any enemies that walk into the pike will take damage, and take increased damage if they are sprinting when they hit it. Depending on the capability of the code, it would be interesting to add a momentum based damage system for this ability similar to the way fall damage works. Finally, the pike would deal increased damage to players while they are on a ladder or walking on a harpoon line. This will help the pike find its place as a ship defense weapon, adding more flavor to the game, as currently the blunderbuss is by far the best ladder guarding tool, and has been throughout the game’s history.

    The Naval Dirk and Buckler:
    This is a suggestion I haven’t seen anywhere before, but I’m sure someone has thought of something similar. The naval Dirk would be held in an ice pick grip behind a buckler shield in the same hand, similar to the style that a Scottish highland soldier would have held their highland Dirk and targe. The Dirk would deal less damage than a cutlass and have less range but have a higher attack speed and a 4 hit combo. The heavy attack would differ from the others in that rather than a single attack being thrown after the charge time, the Dirk’s grip will be flipped (like the throwing knife animation) and swung wildly for about 6 fast stabs/swings before the cooldown (or maybe the heavy attack would be the same as the throwing knife. I’ll explain below). When blocking with the Dirk and buckler, the buckler will block bullets that hit a certain zone in front of the player, similar to a keg being held. Just like a keg, players could shoot the buckler which blocks the shot, or shoot the feet or back to bypass the buckler and hit the player hit box instead. This blocking ability would give this weapon a unique niche in buying time. Whether waiting for a friend to come back from the dead, stalling a board, or waiting for a keg to pop, the Dirk and Buckler would be ideal. The Dirk would also be able to hop like the cutlass. Players could finally call themselves swashbucklers.
    Finally, the Naval Dirk and Buckler may also deal more damage to players who are interacting with objects such as the wheel, raising/lowing/angling sails, using a harpoon or cannon, or inside or a barrel inventory. This would allow players to pull of assassinations on unsuspecting enemies, although, this mechanic might be more fitting for the throwing knife, which leads me onto my next point…

    The Throwing Knife rework:
    Many would agree the throwing knife has become somewhat of a gimmick in the meta after its exiting introduction. The throwing knife should donate its heavy attack to the Naval Dirk and Buckler, and instead of aiming its throw using the block button, the throwing knife holds up a block like all of the other weapons, and yes, knives should be able to block. Parrying daggers are evidence of this, and it’s a game anyway. The throwing knife can be thrown by holding the attack button and releasing the button like a trident of dark tides or ashen winds skull. And again, the knife might also inherit the mechanic allowing it to deal extra damage to enemies that are interacting with objects.
    These changes are intended to enhance the melee meta, but also to transition the throwing knife from a ranged weapon with melee capabilities, to a melee weapon with ranged capabilities. Right now the knife feels like a sluggish gun with the ability to poke. We want the throwing knife to feel like an assassin’s comprehensive melee weapon that can be thrown in a pinch.

    Blocking Rework:
    If anyone has played games like Chivalry, Mordhau, God of War etc… they know how timed parrying works. I’m not sure if the sea of thieves servers are fast enough to support a timed parrying melee mechanic, but it is something I figured would be interesting to consider.
    A timed parry would add depth to melee combat. I’m not suggesting we remove hold to block entirely, rather if a player times a parry precisely, they could receive a small advantage. Maybe the advantage depends on the weapon. Maybe the Boarding Axe pulls opponents in closer on a parry or breaks their leg (similar to fall damage), maybe the Boarding Pike throws the enemy off balance for a moment (like being drunk), maybe the throwing knife or Dirk and Buckler locks up the opponent’s weapon and they can’t attack for a split second, maybe the sword gets an immediate repost attack. Perhaps the timing windows for each weapon’s parry could be different. I would love to hear other people’s suggestions for how this mechanic could work or interact with different weapons.

    How the Weapons fit in the Meta:
    The cutlass will retain its movement superiority and crowd control (able to lunge jump and block hop), the boarding axe will provide utility in boarding ships, the boarding pike will be utilized primarily in ship defense, the naval dirk and targe will be useful for personal defense and buying time, and the throwing knife will become more useful for stealthy tucks (something rare wants to address soon) and assassinations.
    As I said before, I have intentionally given all of the melee weapons the ability to block attacks. A big part of the pirate fantasy that many players desire is a hand to hand duel on a ship. Sea of thieves lacks the clashing of melee weapons and overly represents guns. Melee weapon variety is something I and many players have waited for since the game’s release, and we hope it gets reconsidered despite the prior objections to it.

    If anyone has any feedback (even negative or constructive feedback) I encourage you to reply. If anyone has any other melee weapon suggestions I would love to hear about them. Even if the developers have no interest in incorporating any of these ideas, I’m interested in hearing what the community thinks, and if anyone has any cool weapon concepts.

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  • It’s been over two years since new personal weapons were added to the game

    Not long enough. Nobody even uses those weapons (because they require breaking the meta)

    many would agree that the weapons update added a lot of depth and freshness to the game

    True but that didnt last now did it? Everyone went back to EoR and Pistol

    The ability to pry boards off of a ship hull would be fun and helpful for solo players who don’t have a crew that can continuously pump holes

    How does this help solo?

    The time it takes to pry a board off can be tweaked and balanced of course. The axe should also be able to chop the destructible ship parts (mast, helm, and capstan).

    Same time it takes to Board up a Tier 3 hole, Yes. While you are hacking away...your defensless and..left looking at a wall. Before seeing the Ferry

    holding the primary attack input, similar to the cutlass lunge or the throwing knife heavy attack. This heavy attack would break the enemies guard

    What Guard? Majority of players have guns instead of swords, what guard? Swords? Meh

    it gives solo players a real chance to have some more boarding fun.

    Crew of 4 all doing this to a solo...sure sounds like fun.

    This is a silly pirate game, we want to fight on ships, not spend half our time on a loading screen waiting for a mermaid to take us back to our sloop after jumping off the ship we boarded so we can shoot more cannons.

    So you also want the Axe to help climb the edges of a ship...Mind you, nobody likes the harpoon gun. :P

    anti-boarding pike

    We already have a lot of tools/weapons that do this, but as stated. Nobody uses them and find them to be annoying and not helpful. Resulting in Nerfs...or nobody uses them anyways :p

    The pike would stab with a single long range attack (possibly long enough to hit a player on the bottom of a galleon ladder)

    xD

    Spears, we have Spears...

    When blocking with the Dirk and buckler, the buckler will block bullets that hit a certain zone in front of the player,

    The Dirk would also be able to hop like the cutlass.

    Ooh the Double Gunners are gonna fume...

    knives should be able to block.

    Butter knife vs Sword....Yeah...

    As I said before, I have intentionally given all of the melee weapons the ability to block attacks.

    Does 0 to Double gunners, whom in actual pvp dont use Sword. :p

    Sea of thieves lacks the clashing of melee weapons and overly represents guns.

    So far, I havnt seen a single weapon I trade the sword for, and team it up with the "Dirk and Buckler" making me a force to block guns and defend with a sword. A new trick that I am sure to hear a lot of complaints from. Mix in with the stun the sword has :P

    Much like the new weapons we gotten. They be fun for few months, but everyone goes back to what they love. Two guns.

  • @burnbacon said in Melee Update: New Melee Weapons Revisited:
    Hello burnbacon, I appreciate the time you took to read the post and reply, and I appreciate the criticism as well. I believe there is still a case to be made for the points you disputed and I will do my best to defend them.
    I apologize if this is formatted strangely, I don’t often use the quote feature on the forums.

    It’s been over two years since new personal weapons were added to the game

    Not long enough. Nobody even uses those weapons (because they require breaking the meta)

    I agree that two years is not enough time for new weapons, and I should have made this more clear in my original post. The intention is that the developers start working on new weapons soon as it will take a while to develop.

    many would agree that the weapons update added a lot of depth and freshness to the game

    True but that didnt last now did it? Everyone went back to EoR and Pistol

    I would actually argue that the fun did last. The variety of those weapons still exists for casual players, and will remain a fun tool in the game forever. Not every weapon has to be top tier to be fun, and many of us still use weapons other than double gun. I also would make an argument that the new weapons lacked some variety, as they were all ranged weapons. I think new weapons, even if they are slightly underused compared to the old ones add more freshness than the temporary world events we get so often.

    The ability to pry boards off of a ship hull would be fun and helpful for solo players who don’t have a crew that can continuously pump holes

    How does this help solo?

    This helps solo players because part of the fun of the game is boarding ships, and solo players don’t get the opportunity to board as frequently. Because solo’s can’t put cannon holes in another players ship while they are on it, the boarding axe finds a use. I don’t intend for the boarding axe pry feature to be very powerful, it should just be a utility option in specific scenarios.

    The time it takes to pry a board off can be tweaked and balanced of course. The axe should also be able to chop the destructible ship parts (mast, helm, and capstan).

    Same time it takes to Board up a Tier 3 hole, Yes. While you are hacking away...your defensless and..left looking at a wall. Before seeing the Ferry

    Agreed, that’s why the boarding axe wouldn’t be an annoying pest. It can only be used after killing all enemy players or if the enemies are distracted.

    holding the primary attack input, similar to the cutlass lunge or the throwing knife heavy attack. This heavy attack would break the enemies guard

    What Guard? Majority of players have guns instead of swords, what guard? Swords? Meh

    That’s exactly the intention of this whole update. To transition from primarily guns to more melee variety.

    it gives solo players a real chance to have some more boarding fun.

    Crew of 4 all doing this to a solo...sure sounds like fun.

    A crew of 4 doing anything to a solo is a mess. A crew of 3 on cannons would be more efficient than the boarding axe pry feature.

    This is a silly pirate game, we want to fight on ships, not spend half our time on a loading screen waiting for a mermaid to take us back to our sloop after jumping off the ship we boarded so we can shoot more cannons.

    So you also want the Axe to help climb the edges of a ship...Mind you, nobody likes the harpoon gun. :P

    This is a misinterpretation of what I’m saying. I absolutely hate when people suggest a boarding axe that can climb up boat hulls. I don’t think it should do that at all. What I mean is that for us solo players who have regular PCs or consoles, and regular WiFi, we need to occasionally jump off of an enemies ship to return to our sloop for maintenance and pumping more cannon holes. Many of us have problems with this, as the mermaid loading screen is slow. Minimizing the amount of times we need to go back to our sloop would help, and being able to pry boards would help with this.

    anti-boarding pike

    We already have a lot of tools/weapons that do this, but as stated. Nobody uses them and find them to be annoying and not helpful. Resulting in Nerfs...or nobody uses them anyways :p

    I agree we have plenty of anti-boarding tools, but the boarding pike is intended to be less annoying than blunderbombs and the blunderbuss. It also adds variety.

    The pike would stab with a single long range attack (possibly long enough to hit a player on the bottom of a galleon ladder)

    xD

    Spears, we have Spears...

    I understand we have spears, again something I should have made more clear in my original post. Spears are a throwing weapon in the game, and aren’t armory weapons, and spears are very different from pikes. A naval pike looks and functions much differently than a spear or javelin. I encourage you to google it.

    When blocking with the Dirk and buckler, the buckler will block bullets that hit a certain zone in front of the player,

    The Dirk would also be able to hop like the cutlass.

    Ooh the Double Gunners are gonna fume...

    I’m not intending to eradicate double gunning. I’m not anti double gun. I think it’s fine for the game. The Dirk and Buckler would not have a giant block hitbox, any skilled player would be able to get around this.

    knives should be able to block.

    Butter knife vs Sword....Yeah...

    Google a parrying dagger. Any historical fencing text will prove to you that daggers and knives were used extensively in fencing against swords to great effect. It’s not just possible, it’s practical and common.

    As I said before, I have intentionally given all of the melee weapons the ability to block attacks.

    Does 0 to Double gunners, whom in actual pvp dont use Sword. :p

    Again, the point of adding more melee variety is to increase the amount of players who can block attacks. The sword wouldn’t be the only melee weapon after these others are added. If some players still choose to double gun, more power to them, that’s the point of variety, but I doubt there won’t be some players that choose to pick up a melee weapon…

    Sea of thieves lacks the clashing of melee weapons and overly represents guns.

    So far, I havnt seen a single weapon I trade the sword for, and team it up with the "Dirk and Buckler" making me a force to block guns and defend with a sword. A new trick that I am sure to hear a lot of complaints from. Mix in with the stun the sword has :P

    It’s all about balancing hitboxes. You might not have a preference for using these other weapons but many would. Also it sounds like you may not know exactly what a Naval Dirk or Buckler is, I encourage anyone reading this post to google a quick image. Dirks and bucklers were some of the most common naval weapons.

    Much like the new weapons we gotten. They be fun for few months, but everyone goes back to what they love. Two guns.

    The new weapons we got were all essentially new guns. Everyone goes back to two guns because the only option we have is a plethora of guns and ranged weapons. I use guns in this game because I don’t have many other choices, not because I love them. I’m sure many other players would resonate.
    Again, thanks for taking the time to read and reply to this post, I know it’s a long one. Much of your criticism was helpful, and really made me think harder about my ideas.

  • A common problem with many posts on this forum is that they list specific ideas for changes which, for one reason or another, are unlikely to work or be popular. Other forum users (as is the nature of the internet) are then keen to explain why those specific ideas wouldn't work, and the result is that the core idea behind the post (which may have been a perfectly valid and popular point) gets lost in a sea of (equally valid) criticism, because the criticism is focusing on the specifics rather than the core idea.

    I think this post is likely to be an example of this. i.e. I think the core idea behind it (introducing more variety and options to melee weapons and mechanics) is solid and worth discussing, and I hope it doesn't get lost among criticism of the specific ideas you've listed.

    That being said, you did ask for negative or constructive feedback so I will say I am fully opposed to the "Boarding Axe". Being able to pry boards off holes would negatively impact game balance in a number of ways:

    1. The boards over holes in your hull are purely cosmetic. Once a hole in your ship is repaired, it's repaired, good as new. Changing this would create a downward spiral, where getting attacked (even if you win) makes you a little more vulnerable for the next fight. The only way to break out of this downward spiral is to spend gold (to restore your ship). And the cost of restoring your ship is insignificant to long term players, and will disproportionately affect new (or less accomplished) players.

    2. This game is not intended to be pure FPS. It is a naval strategy game where you can be let down by any one of your skills. Whether that's your fps movement and aim, your resource management, your cannon fire, your ship steering, your teamwork, your preparation, your ship management, prioritisation, and decision making, situational awareness, etc. etc. A good pirate must keep all these skills sharp or lose fights. If your cannon aim is lacking, it should cost you the fight. Just as you can lose a fight because you didn't bring enough resources, or manage repairs, or repel boarders.

    3. "the time required to pry boards can be easily adjusted for balance". I think the idea is that the time is already adjusted for balance. The balance is, you can't do it. If you're introducing a new mechanic to PVP, you can't just balance things by adjusting the time it takes. You need to introduce a cost (e.g. boarding axe takes two weapon slots, and can't be used against players (not saying we should do this (as I said, I'm opposed to the boarding axe), just giving an example of what adjusting for balance might look like)).

    4. "we want to fight on ships, not spend half our time on a loading screen waiting for a mermaid". You could say this about anything: "We want to fight, not sit on the ferry of the damned waiting for a door to open". "We want to fight, not stand still holding down a button while our mast slowly raises", "We want to fight, not stand around hammering planks of wood and bucketing water". This game is about time management. Hitting a player means they need to take time out to eat. Hitting their ship, means they need to take time out to bucket and repair. Killing them, means they need to take time out to respawn. Boarding is a high risk, high reward strategy. If you fail (or don't properly plan) a boarding attempt, you risk losing time as you swim for your mermaid and wait for the loading screen. This is intentional. You're not meant to want to do it. You're meant to balance the risk of having to do it, against the reward of a successful board.

    Again, just to reiterate my first point, my criticism here is specific to the idea of a boarding axe. I think your core idea of introducing more variety and options to melee combat is interesting and worth discussing.

  • @eligibleeel6171
    Thank you for replying to the post.
    Your reply was EXTREMELY eye opening. I agree with all of the points you listed about the boarding axe and they make total sense actually. Perhaps it’s time for me to put the board prying axe to rest.

    Maybe the axe could have other utility, such as lowering sails in one chop (like a cutlass with harpoons) or dealing tiny amounts of chip damage to the mast, capstan, or wheel (not enough to be very significant, but enough to add up/decrease the amount of cannon shots needed to take it down). Maybe the boarding axe could have some interactions with fires as it is a type of fire axe.
    In any case, I’ll always hold out hope for one of the most popular pirate weapons to finally be added, even if it’s just a simple melee weapon without much utility.

    Thanks for letting me know about specific posts being lost in the sea. I don’t frequent the forums, and I was actually told by a friend that specific ideas are more likely to get attention on the forums, but I think he doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

    Again, thanks for replying, it seems I’ve been enlightened. Maybe I’ll make another post in a few months about general melee combat changes if this one dies out.

  • No, your friend is right: specific ideas are more likely to get attention on the forums. But that's an unfortunate side effect of the fact that people are more likely to comment if they disagree. You will rarely see a post with a long string of comments all saying things like "Yeah that could work I guess". The posts with the most comments will always be controversial topics where people have the chance to say "OK, here's why that wouldn't work..." (Not excluding myself from this. Couldn't resist pointing out the flaws in the boarding axe idea).

    When I talked about your idea getting lost in a sea of criticism, I didn't mean the post itself wouldn't get enough visibility. I meant that commenters would focus on criticising the specific ideas you listed, and would fail to engage with/ show support for the core idea of increasing variety in melee combat.

  • I only have 2 very minor issues with this

    • Parrying (as much as I would LOVE it) would be negatively affected by the poor quality servers, feeling more lucky than skill based. This was and remains my issue with One Blunder
    • Rare has yet to update and clean up the new weapons since their introduction, plus reskinning new weapons with the old skin themes would be time consuming. It is likely these weapons would suffer from clunk or be weak compared to the current weapons

    I am actually all for a boarding axe that assists players who enjoy boarding in attacking boats with minor cannon use. Tools, not rules. So many players complain about TDMers when it’s just a valid strategy in an open world sandbox game. If they’re toxic, report them and have them banned. If they’re just quipping and boarding without firing cannons, who really cares.

  • @boneheart1237
    These issues are totally valid. As someone who plays on high ping, I have come to the conclusion that parrying wouldn’t actually be healthy in the game, therefore blocking is the way to go. This was discussed a lot in spectergames post about throwing knives
    https://www.seaofthieves.com/community/forums/topic/184821/how-i-would-buff-throwing-knives

    It is truly a shame that the existing weapons don’t get enough attention. I hope this post is something that can be put on a roadmap and added after the current weapons have time to settle, not before.

    It’s interesting that you are in support of a destructive boarding axe. After thinking on it for a while, I myself am on the fence of whether or not being able to punch hull holes with it or not would be healthy, but I am still in support of captstan, mast, and wheel destruction, as well as other utility uses.

  • Congrats on being one of the few threads where people haven't devolved into arguing semantics and nonsense with each other!

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