SoT Feels Less Emergent

  • (Feel free to cook me in the comments if I'm out of touch, or just spell something wrong).

    Structure of this post

    Part 1: A List of changes I think had a negative impact on the game
    Part 2: How these changes affect the game
    Part 3: My direct pieces of feedback


    Below are a list of changes that in think negatively impacted how emergent the world is from a player perspective:

    1: Sunken Kingdoms are added, making high amounts of treasure items attainable relatively quickly.
    2: Sea Forts are added, making high amounts of all resources easily accessible in about 15m, getting this amount of resources used to take hours.
    3: Loot crates are now able to directly take and store items making looting resources much easier.
    4: Crates can now be bought directly at outposts. you no longer have to find them.
    5: Captaincy is added and loot can be sold magnitudes faster then before
    6: Voyages are overhauled to be more consistent and you can now re-roll them as much as possible.
    7: World events got re-balanced reducing incentives to alliance, and generally made the events easier
    8: Harpoons instantly put loot on the boat making loot moving even faster
    9: Getting a FOTD was made much easier through a PL voyage. Which could sometimes take hours
    10: Safer Seas took a lot of players that would be incentivized to alliance and are primary loot generators leave the matchmaking for High Seas
    11: Diving is made less location dependent, faster, and is now incentivized with dive only voyages, some of which are the best in the game.
    12: Sprinting with one handed loot was added
    13: Ziplines/ Harpoon Travel is added further speeding up loot transfer and general traversal


    All of these changes on their own sound all well and good, however when you add them up they produce some undesirable aggregate effects. They are listed below:

    A. It's much faster to get stocked up for a voyage, raiding an outpost used to be a 15+ minute(Depending on crew and island size) process you had to plan around, it was a part of every story on the high seas. And now you can get dozens of supplies in under 5 minutes, not even including Sea Forts; which just give so much resources, you can just skip what used to be an integral part of the process. Serious crews would cannon over to islands whenever they passed them with empty inventories because stocking up used to be that slow, the incentive to do that isn’t there anymore. Because of this there's a reduced barrier to getting back on a voyage if you're sunk. Increasing the likelihood someone will attack you due to a lower perceived downside in their risk calculation. There's also just more idle time on boats, no need to stop for a flock of barrels in the water.

    B. At an outpost you used to roll voyages, and you only had three(per player) for a faction before you had to wait for a reset. You took what you could get, sometimes you didn't have very good luck. And these voyages were long and took you across the map, it was very easy to get side tracked into some wild adventure. Now you can infinite re-roll voyages that have a more predictable length.

    C. Loot creep has been crazy ever since Sunken Kingdoms were added, then came level 25 voyages with more loot piles, and more expensive loot. Then the world events needed more loot, because they weren't worth doing, etc. Is it worth doing the basic quests of buried treasure and animal hunting? No. There’s a flock of barrels with loot in the water, who cares? That message in a bottle, why bother checking? Too much loot became too common, and a lot of emergent things in the world that used to make some of the best stories no longer are worth pursuing, or seeing if you can plan into your voyage. We know what is optimal, and pursuing anything else is sub-optimal, so no one does it anymore. Which makes the game more predictable, limited, and boring. Also the game is buggy/laggy enough, we do not need even more loot items straining connections.

    D. Transporting loot used to be a huge process, between finishing a normal world event and selling everything could take 30-40 minutes, this is without any outside interference. Talking with your crew while you run back and forth was a part of the struggle, and was also really tense, just because an event was over didn't mean you were even half way done. The relief when finally selling after being able to see and hold your loot was the best. Now however, looting takes much less time, you don't need to choose a really good parking spot because of all the harpoon buffs. You can be closer to your boat more often. Knowing outpost layouts, which loot goes to what vender, the run from the boat all the way to the tavern on some islands was NERVE RACKING. That's all gone, just give it to the sovereigns in under 2 minutes.

    E. Getting a FOTD used to be its own story that could take hours, and required interaction with other people on the server. However, now you can skip that process, do it on your own, super quickly, and now FOTD's aren't an event anymore, they're expected. They're also optimal, so lots of people are doing it.

    F. PvP was so tense and unique in this game because of the stakes. It isn't just about the battle, it's about what you're fighting over(Loot). Loot is generated from PvE activities, by PvE players. So when these PvP averse players exited the High Seas they took their loot with them. And honestly good for them. However this leaves the rest of us with a population that is on average higher skilled, more willing to engage in PvP and less likely to alliance with other players. This is limiting to the stories on the seas and probably contributes a lot to that feeling of the seas being more cut throat then before. This doesn't even mention diving, which you can't do with loot. Because diving is so incentivized by great dive exclusive quests, and by saving so much sailing time people are more likely to sell at any given time. This makes PvP more likely because people have less to lose, but also more trivial because people have less to lose.

    G. Resource scarcity kept PvP fight times down(sometimes). However now, good luck, that ship you've been fighting probably has hundreds of planks. If they don't commit to a full on engagement you can be fighting for multiple hours, and even if you do sink them they can be back, fully stocked for a fight in a few minutes. SoT is ultimately about having fun, but the main currency you chase is gold. PvP in almost every single circumstance is inefficient for gold generation, this goes for both the winners and the losers, it's always been this way. However because fights in SoT have gotten so long and so inefficient they've also gotten more frustrating which just kills the fun for a lot of people.

    TL;DR:

    All of these changes served to reduce friction and make the game faster. These reduce loot generation, loot hoarding, and stealing opportunities. This leads to an increased number of people willing to engage in PvP, longer PvP overall, and more frustrating encounters with lower stakes. Integral parts of what made SoT so emergent and filled with possibilities for crazy stories can now be skipped over, or are so sub-optimal that they aren't worth doing anymore, additionally people's ability to choose to be optimal has also increased. This lowers activity variety and makes SoT feel more same-y. This IMO is why SoT just doesn't feel the same anymore.


    My pieces of feedback are:

    • Do a loot rebalance, not one thing at a time. Every quest, world event, on demand activity, message in a bottle, and anything not mentioned here. Preferably tone down the amount of loot items, if not for connection issues then do it for the sake of having one unified vision for loot distribution that is consistent and fair given each activities risk vs reward.
      When you do this, factor in the increased power of the harpoon, maybe even rebalance it.

    I’d like to be pulled in random directions again, to have emergent loot matter. Currently if you want to make a lot of gold there’s a pretty small list of activities that all give the best loot and not much else is worth even thinking about.

    • Remove diving specific quests should be, and your emissary flag should reset each time you dive(Excluding hourglass). Diving to a new server should be more punishing, I know matchmaking changes were made, and they were an improvement. But I think encouraging people to dive less is a better solution.

    Some of the best stories happen between crews that encounter each other on the same server over multiple hours, I’d like to have them happen more often. Also hoarding loot makes for the most nerve racking gameplay, I’d like more excuses to feed my hoarding tendencies.

    • Remove the Skull of Destiny Quest, I’m ok with it being a rare random loot piece that you can find while doing PL Quests. But the quest itself cuts out what used to be a rather interesting journey a crew could go on or factor into their questing activities in the background.

    I also think a general Fate of Flame update would be really cool to ship alongside something like this. 5 new flame colors with their own death sources, that when used with the pink flame at the FOTD (or a new new location) would summon colored ghost ships that need to be taken out. Similar to a Ghost Fleet event. It'd be nice to have more then one type of high value player summonable event. It'd also be a good way to make up for taking away the quest after so long.

    • Do a resource rebalance across outposts, islands, sea forts and other things. I preferred things when they were more “scrappy” and it felt like running out of resources was really a concern.

    I really liked the changes made to hourglass, shortening up the matches and adding a shrinking arena vastly improved the flow of the game mode. A also noticed improved behaviors(less excessive running), likely because of said time limit and reduced friction to re-queuing a match. I think a way to shorten the length of PvP in adventure mode is sorely needed. I don't know what form that should take, but it should be done.

    • Either get rid of the sovereign selling point, give it it’s own reputation track, or have some sort of downside to using it; a” handlers fee” if you will.

    I do realize that this is a controversial one. As people are now used to the convenience of selling loot really quickly. And yes I can see why people would disagree with this.

    • I'd like world events to be harder(I'd like most PvE activities in this game to be harder). But especially world events.

    And I'm not taking just giving things more health(although the basic enemies could use more health) it'd be cool if we got more skeleton variants with their own gimmick. Also more weapons, like a skeleton with mini-blunderbombs, blow dart skeletons, or if Eye of Reach skeletons could spawn everywhere like they used too. Give skeleton captains abilities, imagine if shadow skeleton captains could steal your lamp flame, after a few seconds it would re-appear nearby floating in the air, and you would have to chase after and grab it.

  • 10
    Posts
    967
    Views
    feedback
  • All of these changes served to reduce friction and make the game faster

    that about it. The new players who never played during early days, complained. They dont wanna "work" much like how current generation of kids today dont wanna put in effort. They want rewards, without actually doing anything.

  • ur whole list is basically "peoples sessions are too time friendly now giving me less time to steal from them. every single thing in your list is huge wastes of time they fixed because there are many adults who play this game. despite the fact the target audience is kids and teens who have all the time in the world to waste doing tedious stuff in games, adults have less and less time and spending it doing trivial things pushes people away. combine that with the fact that they have admited that like 70% of the playerbase does solo slooping

  • I'm sorry but this post does come across, in fact, drastically, painfully, comically out of touch.

    Nearly everything you're complaining about was a quality-of-life or content update that was celebrated, if not universally, then by at least the vast majority of the playerbase.

    I don't know ANYONE that thinks it's even remotely fun spending 45 mins stocking a middling amount of supplies by hand from barrels into a storage crate and then spending the next five hours to end up with four captain's chests and six villainous bounty skulls that you had to hand-load onto your boat individually (at sub-walking pace) before sailing back to the outpost and individually walking each item across the island to its respective company only to make enough money to BUY another three lame mid-tier voyages that MAY OR MAY NOT be worth the gold or time you used to get it in the first place.

    This comes across almost entirely as a list of complaints that people aren't holding still long enough or moving slow enough during supply- and treasure-gathering for unbelievably low-skill or lazy players to catch up to, defeat and steal from others.

    I don't know what kind of boomer "back in my day" mindset makes one like to suffer as much as possible during their video game experiences, but for the love of gods please don't expect them to revert seven years of actual UPGRADES so that the rest of us can suffer alongside you.

  • @burnbacon

    First of all no, just no. Most people in most generations either are willing to work, or do want to work. They just don't do it because the value proposition just isn't there.

    Secondly, all of the changes and feedback I mentioned have nothing to do with the actual activities, just the set up prep, and selling process. The sailing and questing have always and still take up the majority of time spent acquiring loot. Which is something both new and old players are doing.

    Honestly, it's not the players fault that they advocated for what they wanted.

  • @quitespace1450

    First of all, what would be wrong with that even if it was just my whole list. A PvP player advocating for more time to accomplish their goal is fully within their right.

    Second of all, I don't know where you got that impression from. Stealing loot from people isn't something I do unless attacked first.

    Third of all, if you stretch it three of the suggestions would result in more time to steal loot from other people. But I could also stretch it to be the opposite. For instance I asked for a loot item rebalance; specifically wanting less items to transport, which would make selling take less time. Also, where I focus on PvP in the second part of the post, it is about how PvP is increased due to changes already made by the devs. And my 4th suggestion would serve to slightly decrease PvP overall.

    Forth, what does solo slooping have to do with this? I am very often a solo slooper as well, what is your point. Pretty much this entire list would effect everyone, regardless of crew and ship size in a equal manner. For instance I asked for PvE to be harder, not for the minimum difficulty scaling to be raised by 1 or 2 people.

    Fifth, time friendly, what does that even mean? In this game a large portion of your time will be spent making micro adjustments to your sail and wheel. SoT, even in it's current state, it is a slow game, this game is not designed around instant gratification. There's menial stuff to do on quests, not to mention most quests are pretty long, with each quest taking on a similar structure to the last. That's not even to mentioning loot stealing invalidating peoples' time, which is something the devs have designed into the game.

    Also, I just don't think that stocking up for a voyage/selling when done with a voyage was a trivial that served to push people away. I do however think that a streamlined game that's less interesting overall would push them away, which is why I am even making suggestions.

  • @quitespace1450

    lol don’t use the adult life as an excuse.
    You as an adult plan according, when you want and how. Regardless of time and if things don’t go your way, oh well?
    As an adult my time is what I make of it. If I am still able to sail around, pirate about.

    Game was good.

  • @thegrimpreacher

    Lets go through this sentence by sentence:

    "Nearly everything you're complaining about was a quality-of-life or content update that was celebrated, if not universally, then by at least the vast majority of the playerbase."

    Genuinely, so what? People can't change their minds, what about right now? Do they still think this way? Yea sure, these are Quality of Life(QoL) changes, but they also massively changed the balance of the game. Some were immediate fundamental changes, and some were creeping changes with knock on effects over time. Take Diving, it's a QoL feature, it also massively changed the balance of the game Almost all players liked diving when it launched, and now due to complaints the devs are currently running a test that removes some features of diving. My second suggestion directly targets diving which a sizeable portion of the community changed its mind about. I don't think it's that outlandish to look QoL features and give suggestions about them.

    "I don't know ANYONE that thinks it's even remotely fun spending 45 mins stocking a middling amount of supplies by hand from barrels into a storage crate"

    In my post, i did not suggest removing the ability for storage crates to directly store and take from containers. While yes, I did highlight it as a change that sped up the game(which it did). What I asked to be changed where the amount of items in said containers to be taken. Also, exaggerating doesn't help make your point, it did not take 45 minutes to clear out an outpost; even as a solo. In the second part of the post I talked about how because you couldn't get a lot of resources very quickly people did it while they were adventuring passively in the background. Now you just go to a fort or buy supplies from an outpost and you're good, looting as you go is no longer necessary.

    Also, I want to highlight part of this sentence real quick.

    "I don't know ANYONE that thinks it's even remotely fun..."

    So you never met someone who played in year one, because harpoons and other QoL features didn't exist for a while. And guess what, people still had fun, there's even people who had more fun in year one then right now. If no one had fun in this old system we wouldn't even be here on this website, because the game would have died. Just because you can't imagine something being fun doesn't mean others won't.

    "Spending the next five hours to end up with four captain's chests and six villainous bounty skulls that you had to hand-load onto your boat individually (at sub-walking pace) before sailing back to the outpost and individually walking each item across the island to its respective company"

    Again with the exaggeration. It did not take that long to get those items even before the first quest rebalance, not to mention the second rebalance. I also did not mention removing harpoons, balancing for sure(for instance a slightly longer cooldown). I also didn't mention changing the ability to run with loot. Not to mention that selling 10 items(with good parking/a good outpost) only took about 2-4 minutes solo. Instead nowadays we spend 2-3 minutes solo to sell way more items, just with a shorter runback. And instead of making a couple thousand gold, we make a tens of thousands of gold. So we can spend them on items that got more expensive over time.

    "Only to make enough money to BUY another three lame mid-tier voyages that MAY OR MAY NOT be worth the gold or time you used to get it in the first place."

    Were you failing enough quests for this to be true? Quests cost almost noting to buy. You made so much more money from a quest compared to what they cost. It was a complete after thought what are you talking about. Are we making stuff up now?

    "This comes across almost entirely as a list of complaints that people aren't holding still long enough or moving slow enough during supply- and treasure-gathering for unbelievably low-skill or lazy players to catch up to, defeat and steal from others."

    I would need more elaboration to understand why you got this impression from my suggestions.
    As a refresher, a Quick summery of my suggestions:

    • Do a loot rebalance, preferably so there's less items to move overall
      This would reduce idle times at islands

    • Remove diving specific quests and reset emissary level for diving
      This also has nothing to do with players spending more idle time at islands. But it would encourage more time spent in a single server and less loot selling

    • Remove the Skull of Destiny Quest
      This also has nothing to do with players spending more idle time at islands.

    • Do a resource rebalance, preferably so resource acquisition can't be done all at once
      This wouldn't change idle times at individual islands, looting the islands would still take the same amount of time, you'd just get less.

    • Rework the sovereign selling point in some way, ideally so people are encouraged to use the other selling points.
      This would increase idle time at an island. However, keep in mind suggestion #1 of reducing the number of items you'd need to move. Granted, this would still make selling longer. Which is a change I'd like to see, and yes, this would give players a chance to catch up to you. However, that's not the focus of my feedback, it's just a byproduct. Back in the day the stress and tension was palpable 'Do all of us transfer loot to sell faster or do we take longer but have one guy in the crows nest?' was a stressful multi-minute decision that had to be made when your were selling. and it doesn't really exist anymore.

    • I'd like PvE to be harder(Especially world events), preferably through giving enemies more abilities.
      This would increase Idle time it islands(If you're bad). However again the focus is on making a more engaging PvE sandbox, not appealing to PvP players.

    So, your point is valid for 1/3 of the list, doesn't seem like a great point.

    Are we going to just discount that stealing loot is a skill, so is defending loot, and so is sail management. Even if they did catch up to you, which they shouldn't because they're lazy/low skill, and if they did, shouldn't even be able to take your loot.

    "I don't know what kind of boomer 'back in my day' mindset makes one like to suffer as much as possible during their video game experiences, but for the love of gods please don't expect them to revert seven years of actual UPGRADES so that the rest of us can suffer alongside you."

    I don't think any of my suggestions would count as a reversion to a state of suffering, and I also don't believe all of the changes were strictly upgrades. And no, this is not some boomer mindset. I am expressing that several positive changes over the course of years have changed the game. And in aggregate I view some of those effects as negative.

    What made you think I expect the devs to do this. This is a place to share feedback, and in the terms of posting here it states that they are under no obligation to use our feedback. I don't expect them to make these changes(doing do would be unintelligent to say the least), a very large portion of community feedback is never implemented, odds are we'll both be in that category.

    Also, Holy insulting. I was hoping for some insightful debate about intricate game mechanics when I saw a long-ish post. Not blatant exaggerations and ad hominem arguments.

  • @thegrimpreacher I honestly miss buying voyages, having stock of them on ship and randomness of loot. I don't miss manual usage of storage crate but I do miss forgaing trough voyage. That was part of adventures charm.

    Voyage's or whole game loop nowadays is predictable to point of being boring. OP is making vaild point that some of QoL undermined base game loop making game stale.

    Need for forgaing and old voyage system that put ships in server on coliding course where main engines lf emergent adventure.

    After new voyage system, unnumbered glithes to get ton of supplices from vendors and on HG on top of that one of recurring topic or sentiments is "Seas feels empty"

    I wonder why.

  • @ghutar said in SoT Feels Less Emergent:

    @thegrimpreacher I honestly miss buying voyages, having stock of them on ship and randomness of loot. I don't miss manual usage of storage crate but I do miss forgaing trough voyage. That was part of adventures charm.

    Same mate. I loved the random award aspect of voyages and raids. Was also fond of buying voyages, as it was at least for me contributing to the immersion aspect. And yea, got nothing against new crate QoL.

    I wouldn't mind the new voyage system, if only they didn't remove the option to get them physically, even if for free. But whatever.

    The thing is - game just became faster in general, for better or worse. They just opted to make it easier for people with less free time, for quicker sessions I guess.

    So I doubt we'll see it back in the game. We have diving, so what's the point of having the old voyage system, at least currently imho.

    Voyage's or whole game loop nowadays is predictable to point of being boring. OP is making vaild point that some of QoL undermined base game loop making game stale.

    Agree. It's just too homogenized. Or as you said, too predictable.

10
Posts
967
Views
feedback
9 out of 10