Brigantine Speed

Im pretty sure that the sloop sailing in a direction you cant get full billow and escaping is the entire intent of the change. You arnt supposed to be able to catch a sloop in that case and the brigantines speed at that time was not supposed to be faster than a sloop into the wind.

The brigantine was always supposed to be a middle grounds ship in balance where it was a little tankier and faster to turn than a galleon, but squishier and slower to turn than a sloop, and each ship was supposed to have an optimal direction to sail, but the physics didnt work out right for it, the rework fixed that by instead making it so no ship can catch the other if they are sailing correctly.

so unless im reading the post wrong, the fact you could not catch a sloop in this case seems testament that the change working as intended, making it a middle man in terms of speed relative to the wind.

@goldsmen said in Brigantine Speed:

The brigantine was always supposed to be a middle grounds ship in balance where it was a little tankier and faster to turn than a galleon, but squishier and slower to turn than a sloop, and each ship was supposed to have an optimal direction to sail, but the physics didnt work out right for it, the rework fixed that by instead making it so no ship can catch the other if they are sailing correctly.

The brig is like the worst possible ship to tank in. You will get cooked if someone knows to just spread and shoot bilge spot.

@fysics3037 said in Brigantine Speed:

@goldsmen said in Brigantine Speed:

The brigantine was always supposed to be a middle grounds ship in balance where it was a little tankier and faster to turn than a galleon, but squishier and slower to turn than a sloop, and each ship was supposed to have an optimal direction to sail, but the physics didnt work out right for it, the rework fixed that by instead making it so no ship can catch the other if they are sailing correctly.

The brig is like the worst possible ship to tank in. You will get cooked if someone knows to just spread and shoot bilge spot.

The brig is the second worst to try to tank with. A galleon sinks faster per hole with more holes than any other ship, if you dont fix mid deck holes before water gets there then you will sink too fast to stop it once the water reaches that point. A brigantine can sink fast but is at least recoverable with team work if you wernt watching it well enough at first.

@goldsmen sure brig sinks slower technically, but you're neglecting the 2 deck advantage of sloop and galleon. Also bilge spot on brig 💀Blunderbombs v brig 😂🤡 Getting one balled on brig🧌🙈

I mean just this argument is like completely incorrect. I've been the second best brig on the game bro like you're trolling if you think it's actually harder to sink than a sloop.

@fysics3037 said in Brigantine Speed:

@goldsmen sure brig sinks slower technically, but you're neglecting the 2 deck advantage of sloop and galleon. Also bilge spot on brig 💀Blunderbombs v brig 😂🤡 Getting one balled on brig🧌🙈

I mean just this argument is like completely incorrect. I've been the second best brig on the game bro like you're trolling if you think it's actually harder to sink than a sloop.

I literally never said that it is harder to sink than a sloop, i said its harder to sink than a galleon.

Im not neglecting the fact that sloop and galleon have second deck holes, brigantine has second deck holes by the games classification at the very back. There is no technicality to the brig sinking slower, a galleon sinks slower with a single lower deck hole than a brigantine, and that galleon has more lower deck holes.

Galleon having a second deck is in no way an advantage and i have no idea where this conclusion is coming from considering its second deck holes are typically its breaking point.

The bilge spot, blunder bombs and getting one balled doesnt make any sense as a point to counter the brig, you can get one balled on every ship, and the galleon is worse in every way to bilge. Spouting bilge, blunder bombs and one balls feels like just saying some of the things that EVERY ship has to deal with in combat, which really adds nothing to your point and just leaves me confused where you are going with any of this.

As for "second best brig on the game", im sorry to say, but i see people boast in every game about their "better than everyone else" skill, its not exactly a point of evidence to claim being second best in the world, nor are you the first person to boast in this game. Boasts arnt any good in a debate for anything other than attempting to shut down an argument without actual information, instead saying "im so good that i would know" which is anecdote. If you want a genuine and civil debate, boasting wont help your point.

@goldsmen I don't even know where to start. :D

• You're right: every ship should have a wind condition, where it can outrun other ships. That's not the case for galleon vs. brig right now. A galleon is faster than a brig in every wind direction. That should also not exist in this game.

• Saying, that every ship has to deal with combat mechanics is also true. But combat mechanics have different efficiencies when used on different ships. Hitting the bilge spot on the brigantine is much easier compared to the sloop or the galleon because of the lack of cover. So hitting it with cannon balls or blunderbombs creates much bigger effects compared to the other ships. One balling on the brig is also easier because of the same lack of cover (and because the brig sits so flat in the water).

• Having a second deck is a HUGE advantage because you don't have to pay much attention to it and can focus on other things. Hits on the "second deck" of the brig always create water pressure because it is not a real second deck like on the sloop or on the galleon. You can completely ignore any damage on the middle deck of a galleon, as long your lower deck does not get filled with water. This is by far the easiest to use advantage of any ship in the game because there is zero skill involved to exploit it.

• The second deck on the galleon also forces other ships to focus cannon line OR focus the lower deck to create water pressure. It doesn't matter where your focus lies, it automatically leads to a reduction in pressure on the other part of the ship. This is not the case for brig or sloop where you put pressure on water and cannon line simultaneously.
  .
  All in all I really don't know what to say about your post, but it feels like you're actively trying to not see advantages of the sloop and (especially) the galleon or disadvantages of the brig.

@streichkase said in Brigantine Speed:

@goldsmen I don't even know where to start. :D

• The whole point of this discussion was, that a sloop, that DIT NOT manage its sails properly was able to outrun a brig, that WAS managing its sails. That's just unfair and should not exist in this game.

• You're right: every ship should have a wind condition, where it can outrun other ships. That's not the case for galleon vs. brig right now. A galleon is faster than a brig in every wind direction. That should also not exists in this game.

• Saying, that every ship has to deal with combat mechanics is also true. But combat mechanics have different efficiencies when used on different ships. Hitting the bilge spot on the brigantine is much easier compared to the sloop or the galleon because of the lack of cover. So hitting it with cannon balls or blunderbombs creates much bigger effects compared to the other ships. One balling on the brig is also easier because of the same lack of cover (and because the brig sits so flat in the water).

• Having a second deck is a HUGE advantage because you don't have to pay much attention to it and can focus on other things. Hits on the "second deck" of the brig always create water pressure because it is not a real second deck like on the sloop or on the galleon. You can completely ignore any damage on the middle deck of a galleon, as long your lower deck does not get filled with water. This is by far the easiest to use advantage of any ship in the game because there is zero skill involved to exploit it.

• The second deck on the galleon also forces other ships to focus cannon line OR focus the lower deck to create water pressure. It doesn't matter where your focus lies, it automatically leads to a reduction in pressure on the other part of the ship. This is not the case for brig or sloop where you put pressure on water and cannon line simultaneously.
  .
  All in all I really don't know what to say about your post, but it feels like you're actively trying to not see advantages of the sloop and (especially) the galleon or disadvantages of the brig.

I dont know how both of you are misinterpreting my posts as saying the sloop is not at an advantage. I have stated in this post among others that the sloop is the tankiest ship in the game. I have always made that claim, my entire claim here is that the brigantine is a middle ground between sloop and galleon in tankiness, speed, and turn rate.

The galleons mid deck is its weak point because of one reason you say its good, that being that it can be ignored while managing lower decks. The ability to ignore mid deck on a galleon is not an advantage but a false sense of safety since if you get enough pressure on lowers or a boarder that can keep the crew distracted enough to reach mid deck water, the ship is irrecoverably sunk already. Neither with all of the sloops or brigantines few mid deck holes being at their max is either ship irrecoverable if water reaches that point from a lower hole, that is a galleon exclusive weakness.

I will admit its possible i misunderstand op's post about how the wind is working for the sloop and brigantine both, but unless demonstrated its hard to really tell for sure what was going on with each ships sails.

@goldsmen That's because you're clearly saying, that huge disadvantages of the brig (e.g. basically no second deck, easiest to hit bilge spot, easiest ship to one ball people etc.) are no disadvantages.

I think the whole point of this discussion is, that sailing correctly feels incredible unrewarding for the brig. You have no chance of escaping or catching a galleon, because it's faster than you in every wind condition (if sails are managed properly) and even with sloppy sail management the galleon can be faster in certain wind conditions (e.g. cross wind with 2/3 sails set correctly). Same thing for the sloop. When sailing into the wind the brig is not able to catch the sloop no matter how the sloop angles its sails.
IMO bad sail management should be more punishing - especially for the galleon.

@goldsmen There's very real evidence that I was on the second best brig crew in the game, so yeah when it comes to brig I'll use that to "appeal to credibility". And no a brig is definitely easier to sink than a galleon. I don't think you're fully aware of just how bad brig is if you think you're equally likely to get one balled on galleon as you are on brig. Brig sits lower in the water making it easier to just arch cannons directly at the other person, especially the helm. There's one tiny area you can bucket out of meaning you can just slam that area with cannons and blunders and get one balls/backsplashes. It also has the most vulnerable wheel making blunder rotation a million times more powerful. And it, in my experience, has the easiest masts to destroy, due to them having a total of only two chainshots of hp, being massive, being furthest away from helm to catch/repair, and taking forever to pick back up if they do fall.

Galleon on the other hand has a very defensible back sail and wheel, often never falling/full breaking if the helm is at all competent. A good bilge is easily able to hold off the shots for a majority of the battle, being able to manage 4 tier 3's and 2 tier 2's at max. There is also a flex that is always able to come down and help with buckets, for a minuscule disadvantage compared to needing the flex on brig. And that flex basically lets you bucket an entire sides worth of holes so you aren't really at any risk of losing if you're playing perfectly. You sit higher on the water meaning that you can afford to play further away and making it harder for one balls to just be aimed directly at you. People aiming for top deck aren't causing bottom deck damage as well, meaning you are typically only "in trouble" in one area at a time, with a good crew ofc. There are 4 cannons, with only 2-3 people actually utilizing them, meaning you aren't susceptible to "losing" cannons to someone just repetitively hitting it. And again, even if they try to force you off cannons they won't have any bottom deck pressure. You also have 3 other people that can go res, making that much simpler. Also the ladders on galleon are a million times easier to watch as a helm compared to the ladders on brig, due to the ones on galleon being much longer and having a flared out section that makes you easy to spot.

There's no scenario where the galleon is weaker than brig. In fact in a majority of scenarios the galleon is tankier than the sloop. The only area the sloop is truly tankier is just if the sloop turtles.

@fysics3037 said in Brigantine Speed:

@goldsmen There's very real evidence that I was on the second best brig crew in the game, so yeah when it comes to brig I'll use that to "appeal to credibility". And no a brig is definitely easier to sink than a galleon. I don't think you're fully aware of just how bad brig is if you think you're equally likely to get one balled on galleon as you are on brig. Brig sits lower in the water making it easier to just arch cannons directly at the other person, especially the helm. There's one tiny area you can bucket out of meaning you can just slam that area with cannons and blunders and get one balls/backsplashes. It also has the most vulnerable wheel making blunder rotation a million times more powerful. And it, in my experience, has the easiest masts to destroy, due to them having a total of only two chainshots of hp, being massive, being furthest away from helm to catch/repair, and taking forever to pick back up if they do fall.

Galleon on the other hand has a very defensible back sail and wheel, often never falling/full breaking if the helm is at all competent. A good bilge is easily able to hold off the shots for a majority of the battle, being able to manage 4 tier 3's and 2 tier 2's at max. There is also a flex that is always able to come down and help with buckets, for a minuscule disadvantage compared to needing the flex on brig. And that flex basically lets you bucket an entire sides worth of holes so you aren't really at any risk of losing if you're playing perfectly. You sit higher on the water meaning that you can afford to play further away and making it harder for one balls to just be aimed directly at you. People aiming for top deck aren't causing bottom deck damage as well, meaning you are typically only "in trouble" in one area at a time, with a good crew ofc. There are 4 cannons, with only 2-3 people actually utilizing them, meaning you aren't susceptible to "losing" cannons to someone just repetitively hitting it. And again, even if they try to force you off cannons they won't have any bottom deck pressure. You also have 3 other people that can go res, making that much simpler. Also the ladders on galleon are a million times easier to watch as a helm compared to the ladders on brig, due to the ones on galleon being much longer and having a flared out section that makes you easy to spot.

There's no scenario where the galleon is weaker than brig. In fact in a majority of scenarios the galleon is tankier than the sloop. The only area the sloop is truly tankier is just if the sloop turtles.

Simply stating the same claim about being "second best" again and saying there is evidence while not providing does not mean anything beyond continued boasting.

You continue to put words in my mouth where i never said something. I did not say equal chance of being one balled on a galleon, i said it is something that affects every ship, i never brought probability into the mix in that regards.

"easiest mast to destroy due to having two chain shots to destroy" You just described the sloop as well my friend. The galleons 3 masts does give it a bit of an advantage, but that advantage comes at the cost of taking more people to operate those sails to counteract the size of the crew. And as for the 4 cannons on a galleon, if all 4 people are using those cannons, that is in 1 of 2 situations, the crew has no idea what they are doing and dont have people bucketing, or your ship has been disabled well enough you wouldnt be fighting back even if they had one less cannon.

The galleons number of cannons does not account for as much as you give credit for when it is the hardest ship to maneuver and floods so fast that it always needs 1-3 people bucketing and fixing depending how much damage it has taken. When a ship turns like a brick and takes the most babysitting and teamwork to keep afloat, you dont have the luxury of having all cannons operated at once if the ship is even at an angle to hit another ship that can outmaneuver it.

I really see that this argument is going to go nowhere since you are providing points that underplay the amount of effort a galleon takes to manage well, keep claiming that i have said things i have not expressly stated, and then use a boast about being the second best brigantine and claiming there is proof of that, when the only proof you appear to have is the boast its self. "Im the second best because there is proof that im the best because i say there is" Is not proof of anything, and does not belong in debate, that is a baseless boast, not proof of any arguments you are making.

Im going to leave this debate with you here with the points provided, since there is genuinely no point debating some one who half of their argument is boast with barely under double the hours in game as my self, and anecdote of "i experienced it". This is clearly not a debate for you, its something else entirely.

@streichkase said in Brigantine Speed:

@goldsmen That's because you're clearly saying, that huge disadvantages of the brig (e.g. basically no second deck, easiest to hit bilge spot, easiest ship to one ball people etc.) are no disadvantages.

I think the whole point of this discussion is, that sailing correctly feels incredible unrewarding for the brig. You have no chance of escaping or catching a galleon, because it's faster than you in every wind condition (if sails are managed properly) and even with sloppy sail management the galleon can be faster in certain wind conditions (e.g. cross wind with 2/3 sails set correctly). Same thing for the sloop. When sailing into the wind the brig is not able to catch the sloop no matter how the sloop angles its sails.
IMO bad sail management should be more punishing - especially for the galleon.

Im really not saying that, never once did i say its bilge spot is not a disadvantage, however the claim that its the easiest ship to one ball people is not true considering the sloop sits about the same height in the water as the brigantine. I dont get this specific claim about one balling at all when it is refuted by the existence of another ship that is smaller than it.

As for escaping a galleon, you do have chance to do that if you sail against wind as of the time they reworked ships speeds, at least if we take rares word on it. If the galleon and sloop are genuinely faster in every wind condition then that is an engine bug that goes against what its supposed to be doing. If thats the case then it absolutely needs fixed, but i have not heard this issue anywhere until this thread.

@goldsmen bro your entire point relies on people not being able to control the galleon well. News flash!!! People being bad at the game is not metric for which ship is better. You say this like 4 times.

Also you entirely missed the point about cannons. It's not about the dps that 4 cannons can provide, it's about the ability to be in any of thoss 4 spots, with the two people you typically have. On sloop and brig you can simply just target the others cannon line and take away all of their offensive potential, while still dealing plenty damage. Not only is it difficult to execute a full cannon line steal on galleon, you also lose all of your offensive potential. First of all you're only hitting top deck which is pointless, but you're also probably going to need blunderbombs for a full cannon line steal. So you prolly are only doing like half the dps you could on the top deck, rather than just focusing bottom deck.

Like bro, idk what makes y'all think brigs are the craziest things in the game, but they ain't good. Any decent brig crew won't beat any decent sloop or galleon crew, suggesting the sloop helm can watch ladders through window effectively.

Oh and yeah you can go dig through old Pei streams if you want to see the brig fights. NAW is the only region that has ever even had a brig arc (afaik) so it's not like anyone else was competing for the title 😭 One fight was crazy, tho the storm + blunderbombs spam messed us up. We woulda won that one if it hadn't been for storm RNG.

@goldsmen said in Brigantine Speed:

@streichkase said in Brigantine Speed:

Im really not saying that, never once did i say its bilge spot is not a disadvantage, however the claim that its the easiest ship to one ball people is not true considering the sloop sits about the same height in the water as the brigantine. I dont get this specific claim about one balling at all when it is refuted by the existence of another ship that is smaller than it.

The massive indoor section to bilge from 🗿
The ladders that are watchable from an elevated or inside section 😜
The large elevated helm platform 🙈
The tucked away yet very accessible cannon ball barrel 👨‍🍳
The second bilge spot 🤫
The also good placement of the ammo crate 💪
The easily revivable MC 🔥
The reasonably grabbable masts 🗣️

I mean the brig literally has any restocking/bucketing/repairing/ladder watching funneled into one area barely larger than the hitbox of a cannonball. The second you start winning there is guaranteed to be 1+ person there. And the cannon line is just as easy to hit as the sloop, with 2-4x the running for the helm. With no second bilge spot, no elevated helm platform, a very open staircase, and a very exposed cannon line, the brig is left as the most vulnerable boat for one balls. It's actually so bad that you can usually sink bad brig crews by just relying on backsplashes. You'll be mid fight and then 🌊🏳️

@goldsmen

As for escaping a galleon, you do have chance to do that if you sail against wind as of the time they reworked ships speeds, at least if we take rares word on it. If the galleon and sloop are genuinely faster in every wind condition then that is an engine bug that goes against what its supposed to be doing. If thats the case then it absolutely needs fixed, but i have not heard this issue anywhere until this thread.

This is only the case for brig vs. galleon and has been shown multiple times in the first week of the patch that adjusted sailing speeds (see video link below).

NEW Ship Speeds EXPLAINED in Sea of Thieves (Full & Complete Guide)

Even if the brig is faster into the wind, the advantage is so marginally small, that it doesn't make any difference and just pushed the pre-existing problem of the sloop (almost) not being able to run from the brig to the brig not being able to run from the galleon.

@streichkase said in Brigantine Speed:

@goldsmen

As for escaping a galleon, you do have chance to do that if you sail against wind as of the time they reworked ships speeds, at least if we take rares word on it. If the galleon and sloop are genuinely faster in every wind condition then that is an engine bug that goes against what its supposed to be doing. If thats the case then it absolutely needs fixed, but i have not heard this issue anywhere until this thread.

This is only the case for brig vs. galleon and has been shown multiple times in the first week of the patch that adjusted sailing speeds (see video link below).

NEW Ship Speeds EXPLAINED in Sea of Thieves (Full & Complete Guide)

Even if the brig is faster into the wind, the advantage is so marginally small, that it doesn't make any difference and just pushed the pre-existing problem of the sloop (almost) not being able to run from the brig to the brig not being able to run from the galleon.

Then this is absolutely rare botching the delivery yet again, i did absolutely misunderstand the op's post in this case as them misjudging how it was supposed to work. Not seen that video until now and can say that rare definitely needs to fix that, but seeing how long it took them to just fix the sloops sails and rebalancing the brigs speed once, i have the feeling thats going to be another 2 years at least. Heres hoping its not, but by the track record it doesnt look so good.