Season 14 - State of Play Update 2

So we are getting crouch but no disguises?
I rather have crouch still disabled then if I can’t use my disguised barrel.

@ii-stealy-ii said in Season 14 - State of Play Update 2:

speaking of high skilled techniques, wouldn't you consider quick swapping that as well?

It's available in game to everyone who takes the 15 minutes or so to learn how to do it and it's muscle memory at that point

I'm just trying to understand why some things are called exploits, and others are called "high skilled techniques"

At least from a game philosophy perspective, quick swap being a thing seems to kill weapon balance depending on what you enjoy. As a cutlass enjoyer I'm pretty biased against it, as the strengths of the cutlass don't feel like they outweigh the strengths of double gunning and quick swapping to 2-tap someone. If people want to disagree with that, I can totally understand, it's just how I currently feel about things as a relatively new player compared to the oldheads (I have about 550 hours).

Is it high skill to quickswap and 2-tap someone with high accuracy? Absolutely. Is it fun? I've never done it, but I play a lot of high-skill games and I have no doubt it's fun to do. Is it fun to play against? Maybe as someone who is also doing it, but not as someone who is using a cutlass at least. It feels REALLY bad to get 2-tapped as it is already, and making it easier to do, high skill ceiling or not, doesn't change that for me personally. Every loadout should have its weaknesses, and double gunning has weaknesses regardless of whether or not quick swap exists, but with the addition of quick swap it doesn't feel proportional to the weakness of cutlass + whatever else, at least in my opinion.

The issue is ultimately subjective and comes down to how people feel, there's no objective measure here. To me, quick swap feels pretty busted, and I look forward to giving it a shot when it's back and re-evaluating how I feel, though I have the sneaking suspicion I'm just going to miss my cutlass and feel too OP.

@ii-stealy-ii said in Season 14 - State of Play Update 2:

speaking of high skilled techniques, wouldn't you consider quick swapping that as well?

It's available in game to everyone who takes the 15 minutes or so to learn how to do it and it's muscle memory at that point

I'm just trying to understand why some things are called exploits, and others are called "high skilled techniques"

Make SOT Great Again. Keep quickswapping!

@paxcaster my guy the last weapon you can "quick swap" with in terms of the old method is with sword. you can sword combo someone and quick swap to your second weapon.

@doddleee
Sea of Thieves isn't a heavy PvP title though. Animation canceling doesn't fit in.
You are not supposed to kill people as fast as possible.
You are welcome to have your opinion but saying that they should keep animation canceling in is just entirely wrong.

@nokye
I love how people use that as an excuse to use exploits.
Get the saying correct or don't use it at all.

@dadoinkster that's cool, I didn't know that! but it still seems apparent to me that quick swapping with double guns circumvents some of the weakness of double gunning (being vulnerable between shots) whereas with a cutlass combo, you still have the weakness of range and having to catch up to someone to have that swap matter in the first place. Again, not an oldhead, not much of an hourglass grinder or meta researcher, just talking from my personal experience here. I've tried finding info about tech in this game before, but it's all very disorganized and a bit of a blur w how often this game gets patched, so I admittedly gave up on that a while ago. (and if most people who are experienced think this doesn't affect weapon balance at all, then I'd love to learn more about that to see that perspective, bc right now I just don't have enough experience to be totally confident about that)

WE WANT QUICK SWAP i know so many people who would actually come back to the game if you just let the people have quick swap. the game was actually fun before the removing of quick swap and takes skill to learn. in every game there are tactics that give you a advantage once you are skilled enough to learn them like movement in apex or drag clicking in Minecraft. and something that comes with that is the little kids and trolls that are unhappy that people can be better then them at a game.. the community wants quick swap back.. personally it would be nice to have old quick swap because crouch swap is unclean having you drop your POV before shooting but i understand that its far to much to ask considering the time taken to remove it and the possible coding needed to put it back in.

WE WANT QUICK SWAP BACK we as in the people who have actually have spent countless hours in the game we the people who have been playing the game for over years now we the people who actually appreciate the game and hope only the best we the poeple who dream about about this game being coming as amazing as it once was again.

i mean i thank you for the extended period time with crouch swap i will injoy it greatly, but i feel like focusing on removing quick swap is pointless there are far far worst problems on the seas right now. and focusing on taking away the one thing that makes the game fun again the one thing that make the game feel like old sot doesn't need to be a priority. maybe there is something i dont understand because i get that the whole name of the game is business but i thank you if you end up actually reading this.

thank you

@eddietheburr said in Season 14 - State of Play Update 2:

@doddleee
Sea of Thieves isn't a heavy PvP title though. Animation canceling doesn't fit in.

can you help me understand what you mean by this? how is SoT not heavy on PvP? It feels to me that it is very intentionally built around the threat of imminent PvP at any time, the entire risk/reward seems balanced around this idea.

It's all inconsequential anyway. No matter how many threads you quick-swap fanboys hijack to try and argue your pointless points in endless circles, the devs said it's an exploit and doesn't belong. Then removed it. And are working on removing it again. And they will again and again and again until they get it right and it's gone for good.

Deal. With. It.

@paxcaster
I do not consider SoT to be just like your average hyperactive PvP shooter like every other FPS title.
People attempt to force and shape SoT to fall under the same category by using exploits and "movement tech" as they call it.
Don't lean too much into what I wrote. I meant that SoT isn't a 𝘩𝘦𝘢𝘷𝘺 PvP shooter.

Fights are supposed to be enjoyed, and shouldn't end as fast as possible.

@itzstaymad
No.

@eddietheburr I see. Personally, I enjoy a fight that is short and to the point. I do not enjoy protracted battles, it's the entire reason I don't bother with solo hourglass battles and chasing running reapers. I enjoy movement tech and such in any game I play, and I think SoT is a fine game to have advanced techniques in for those who care enough to learn them, as it gives the game more depth without increasing the skill floor of casual play. I'm personally against quick-swapping because to me it seems to imbalance weapon loadouts, but that's just my opinion.

@eddietheburr nvm the "days at sea" thing means something different ig like how long you have talked or something

@itzstaymad said in Season 14 - State of Play Update 2:

WE WANT QUICK SWAP i know so many people who would actually come back to the game if you just let the people have quick swap. the game was actually fun before the removing of quick swap and takes skill to learn. in every game there are tactics that give you a advantage once you are skilled enough to learn them like movement in apex or drag clicking in Minecraft. and something that comes with that is the little kids and trolls that are unhappy that people can be better then them at a game.. the community wants quick swap back.. personally it would be nice to have old quick swap because crouch swap is unclean having you drop your POV before shooting but i understand that its far to much to ask considering the time taken to remove it and the possible coding needed to put it back in.

WE WANT QUICK SWAP BACK we as in the people who have actually have spent countless hours in the game we the people who have been playing the game for over years now we the people who actually appreciate the game and hope only the best we the poeple who dream about about this game being coming as amazing as it once was again.

i mean i thank you for the extended period time with crouch swap i will injoy it greatly, but i feel like focusing on removing quick swap is pointless there are far far worst problems on the seas right now. and focusing on taking away the one thing that makes the game fun again the one thing that make the game feel like old sot doesn't need to be a priority. maybe there is something i dont understand because i get that the whole name of the game is business but i thank you if you end up actually reading this.

thank you

No we don't.

@habiki
Its suprisingly common when these people speak up they always try to make it sound like "THIS IS WHAT EVERYONE WANTS" meanwhile
its just a large sweatlord minority that screams about it.

@realstyli hey bro ur gonna see everyone here say "rare decides what exploits are exploits" and that also extends to how they punish exploits. Many players, including myself, will have fun with this quickswap till they remove it and once they do it will have no knock on effects, unlike the bb exploit which ruined player progression and the economy. Just let us have fun and enjoy crouching.

Sea of Thieves was never a competitive FPS and it will never be. Its just a casual pirate game, so I dont understand why it attracts so many sweaty tryhards...

I think the implementation of arena mode was a big mistake. Creating tournaments and trying so hard to turn SoT into an esport title attracted the wrong type of players to the game imo : competitive FPS players.

Its too late to turn back, the players who are only interested in combat while totally ignoring the rest of the game are here to stay, and they dont care about balance or fairness, they will use any kind of exploit that can give them an advantage in combat.

Now the devs are allowing quickswapping, while they used to be strongly against it, why? Do they just want to ruin the game even more? Its honestly really confusing...

Crouching could have waited longer before being added again, especially since we cant use disguises with it. Its not like its a reaaaally important feature. But no, they just release the feature still broken and allow people to use an exploit that is literally ruining the game for a lot of people. Absolutely baffling... 🤦‍♂️

@xeriel Dawg, it doesn't matter if you have quickswap or not, there still is no time to react. You can't eat a pineapple when going against someone with quickswap, and you don't have enough time to eat food when going against normal swapping.

Also, it's not some sort of gatekept exploit that few people know about. Literally everyone can learn how to do it in a matter of minutes. It doesn't matter if you use kb&m or controller, everyone can do it.

There is no point in arguing against it when the sword will lose to double gunning either way.

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First of, thank you for as far as I can see, starting to become more transparent again with your statements and taking the time in
genuinely making better fixes for problems instead of just dirtily/roughly patching them, truly and genuinely.

Now, Quick Swapping:
Again, thank you for letting us know it's staying in until a good balanced patch is found that does not influence movement negatively: So it doesn't become clunky.

I personally think that this iteration of Quick Swap is not as good as people make it out to be.
Is it as fast as Pre-S10 Quick Swap .. ?

Yes, it is. But:
It's still just as inconsistent and Clunky as any technique that (With timing) removes all the time needed for unecessary animations
inbetween 2 shots (Delay swap or 2x Sprint Cancel Method) to shoot 2 guns slightly faster than with the Normal swap (In the same server)
I'd give it a success rate of about 8 out of 10 on most servers.

The fix that was initially introduced was SUPER Clunky- And with it's second iteration only got mildy better.
I would ask for that fix to be undone and return to the Pre-S10 Quick Swap and See from there with the community how and if the .3-4s between 2 shots (Of the OLD GUNS), really bothers
you that much to be revised and thought of a solution that doesn't end up losing the smooth transition, making it clunky in the end.

Don't get me wrong, I love the speed- I don't mind the speed that Quick Swap gave and will be giving us again for the time being.
But this second iteration of an Actual unintented way of swapping/ and shooting quicker than intended is NOT less clunky than
Delay swap (Timed animation cancel between 2 shots) in terms of Success.

I hope in your way to more transparency and actual "Noticeable" effort in upcoming fixes you will reconsider dirty and frankly,
bad implemented fixes like the "S10 Quick Swap Fix/Patch" to be revised.

Normal swap has a lot of Inconsistency too. A lot of players probably will know what I'm talking about.
There's genuinely a difference in time consistency between a "Good" and "Bad" performing server for time between 2 shots (For double gun, mainly)
These differences translate to the inconsistencies seen in "Delay swap or 2x Sprint cancel" methods aswel.

In normal swap it results in a slower time between 2 shots.
In an Animation Canceling method such as Delay Swap or similar methods it results into us having to be forced to go through the whole Animation again,
having to sprint cancel it once more after realising- ending up in a very clunky transition and frankly, thoroughly bad feeling moment as we are not able to ADS our gun(s).

As a final statement I'd say one of your Main Reasons to removing "Quick Swap" was that it was one of the most Reported as "Cheats".
I'm very confident in saying, this hasn't changed- On the contrary. You're probably receiving just as much + more right now in the same category.
Shots have gotten harder- and even less believable if they do hit. And people can still fairly consistently hit 2 taps that seem indistinguishable from Cheats to most Casual Players.

@xB0NAx

Personally, I think you should drop the war against the quickswap and just focus in real issues. With or without the quickswap, high skilled player will always outplay casual gamers.

I definitely agree with this point and as an addition to why at least for now the "Pre-S10" Quickswap should be considered to be brought back.

@BootyBlasty

I'd say the difference is that Quick swap was an unintended effect, while the keg technique is something that the tools naturally allows for. That's why they're still monitoring the Keg play, to see if what they've allowed their tools to do would break the dynamic

I wouldn't say it was an "Unintended effect" as much as Rare makes it seem, they introduced "Sprint Canceling" or "Animation canceling" in general, way back, intendedly so, which inadvertadly allowed players to do what they did as there was no "Hard Timer" between firing guns at the time other than the Animation itself.
So at the very most I'd call it an "Oversight".

@Xeriel

Instantly killing another player removes any opportunity for counter-play, which makes fights shorter and less interesting. There needs to be some lower limit on time-to-kill, and the devs need to be able to control and adjust that time. Techniques that bypass it affect the intended game balance.

Although I agree with the initial statement that the devs "need to be able to control and adjust min and max for time-to-kill".
Currently, TTK's are all over the place.
Even though clearly exaggerated, your use of "Instantly killing another player" is a bad choice in your analogy.
There's multiple ways to kill a player within a 1s timeframe, right now (With 2 Equippable Weapons), one of which would be Double barrel (Charged shot) + Knife stab, which can be done in less than I'd assume .7s counting from the Charged Shot.
This is not a reason, not anymore. TTK Has significantly reduced (With certain methods and combinations) since S12.

---

TLDR: Thank you and genuine appreciation for the increased transparancy and effort in Fixes as of Late.
In my opinion it is far from Fair to calling Quick Swap an "Unintended feature" or worse, a "Bug" as it was a pretty forseeable "Feature" to be introduced with the
aimed "Animation Canceling" update for 2 guns as at the time there was no hard cap "Aim Down Sights" timer between 2 shots.
People saying stuff like "SoT is not Call of Duty"~ This is not an argument and not even a comparsion that should be made.
Ideally, Gameplay should still be as fluent as Developers could make it and Animation canceling is the answer not the enemy, regardless of shooting speed because of it: It should be tackled differently.

My honest opinion on the matter is: Reconsider introducing the Pre-S10 Quick Swap, or rather Undoing the Fix for Pre-S10 Quickswap.
It wasn't necessarily about the speed in my opinion but the smoothness of transitioning between 1 gun to another (Or any weapon for that matter) as still between (Sword + Gun)

---

Appreciate the work as of late and hope it continues!
Thank you, genuinely.

Too many people are in this thread are trying to use it as an excuse to encourage you to allow the god awful mechanic of quick-swapping for faster-than-intended shooting.

Allow me to add a comment pushing the other side of that topic, saying you should do an even better job preventing overly fast weapon swapping / double shooting.
Instead of trying to force any minimum amount of time between shots, just make it so players don't get to bypass the weapon swapping animation to shoot faster.
Make the requirement for attacking with a 2nd weapon be completing the wield animation.
Whether that means the animation can't be interrupted, making it a commitment the player must complete before they can do something else,
or by leaving it interruptible, but only as a cancel, not a skip, so you still have to do the full animation after you stop crouching, sprinting, or whatever you did to cancel it.

As an added note, every weapon combination should be equally viable. Every. Single. One.
Sword + Throwing Knives should be equally as viable as Blunder + Reach should equally as viable Sword + Pistol should be equally as viable as Blowdart + Double Barrel should be....
I'm not going to type out all of them you get the point.

@the-old-soul800 Respectfully, a Prime example of a godaweful implementation of a Triple A Game Mechanic.

Why are there so many of you that want to "Fix" your own "Perceived, time to kill" to reducing it to Neanderthaler like functioning mechanics?

I hope my words are taken into consideration by the team.

The removal of quick swapping in season 10 has made gun play using 2 guns feel clunky. It is pretty frequent that due to the forced timers applied to swapping weapons, any case of lag or desync can lead to your weapon sitting awkwardly in your hands, not ADSing or not firing until the game decides it can. From a TTK perspective, it makes no sense to remove quick swapping for double gunning considering you can do it with a sword just fine. Throwing knives also have a very similar TTK and do not require reloading, so they are spammable.

The sword has multiple "exploits" that do not have judgement passed upon it. For example, you can use a lure dart to bypass the stun if you miss a lunge. This works because the lure acts as an attackable object. This is incredibly viable on sloop between another interaction that has not been addressed. Which is grabbing a cannon, harpoon, or other interactable object to bypass the stun if you miss a lunge. You can block jump through players, still. The only ruling for what is "unintended gameplay we're embracing" is super lunge.

Removing quick swap did not make a bunch of players quit the game by itself, but it is one of many changes that did. I strongly urge the team either fix gun fluidity or add quick swapping (as it was in season 9) back in. In the game's current state, EAC is ineffective and the people who are quick swapping today are either using a highly gatekept method or they are cheating to achieve it. I can confirm that both of these situations are real.

Higher end players adapted immediately. Those sinking to those skilled players continued to keep sinking because it wasn't quick swap causing them to ruin fights. Removing quick swap only made the game clunkier and harder to enjoy.

This is why players are trying to find quick swap methods. They are not doing it for an "advantage"- they want gun fluidity and quick swap enabled that.