Weapon switching still isn't fair - Here's why

@eastthread51441
It's not my words. It's the developers. Let them decide what they want.

"an unwanted wield delay during regular gunplay, preventing players from firing quickly after moving."

Let's not go back around in circles man, I'm exhausted - we've run a marathon on this topic. Agree to disagree.. let someone else talk, or let the topic die.

It's not like Rare is going to do anything about this anyway, even with the topic created and the bug report submitted. They've got too much on their plate anyway. This whole couple days us back and forward is for nothing in the end :D

How do you all feel about the ability to use your weapons on ladders?

This has always been a topic that I do not like very much in SoT.
When you climb the ladder your weapon should be gone,
but somehow you can just let go, shoot and regrab ladder without any delay at all.

Why Rare? Feels like it is being overlooked. Why no weapon draw animation on ladders?

Very in depth topic discussion happening in here.
All those detailed timings and info are nice to see.

I personally would not mind it, if the entire double gun meta could be resolved by:
always letting the "draw your gun"-animation finish first, before being able to shoot.
And yes: if you do run in between shots, then your animation restarts.

(but I know that many people would then complain that it feels clunky/too slow)

@drfauli

Why take my word on it - here's a response from Rare. Skip to 5:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lim0NtF2vQ&t=300s

always letting the "draw your gun"-animation finish first, before being able to shoot.

Back to page 1. Sorry - I'm not going down that rabbit hole again. No more comment in regards to that.

video:

"fully within the mechanics and fair game"

haha, good one Drew! @Sonicbob

Standing on deck and pulling out my weapon: draw animation, have to wait a bit.
hanging on a ladder: yeah sure, lets fire that thing now! =D

How is that fair game?
Standing: hands free + animation
Hanging: hands on ladder, but no animation?

I don't get it. ^^

thanks for the video and the timestamp though! cheers!

And no need to discuss page 1 comments again.
I have read them. I don't have to agree with them.
Wanted to post my opinion on it. Thats all.

Have a nice day ;-)

@drfauli

I think of it like this: implied animation. Rather than creating an animation for something you can be somewhat reasonably capable of: Holding onto a ladder and using your other hand to grab your pistol or sling your eye of reach.

Same thing when swapping weapons and running - it's implied that you're reaching for your weapon without having to make another animation for it since it's something you could reasonably do. Just the way I see it.

But there is a point to it being tricky to drop off, aim, shoot, and catch yourself. It is a game after-all you can shoot yourself out a cannon.

Have a good one!

The argument comes down to whether or not guns should be considered to be in a ready state or a stowed state if you climb a ladder with a gun out.

Always more than 1 point to consider with each argument. I agree.
Looks like I personally do not agree with the gameplay-decision that has been made here. =D

It is a game after-all you can shoot yourself out a cannon.

I was not aiming for it to be realistic. ^^
Might be personal preference.

Those gameplay decisions just always felt very weird to me personally.
I am sure there are many good counter arguments to my opinion. ;-)

But there is a point to it being tricky to drop off, aim, shoot, and catch yourself.

SoT has kinda been that "funny, casual pirate game" for me.
Going full tryhard and playing it like a first person shooter game expecting it to work like any other FPS... not my style.
Good for you if you can pull off the ladder juke. Still feels weird to stand on the receiving end, wondering why there is no animation.

If guns were considered to be in a stowed state when a player climbs a ladder and Rare changed the sprint bypass to a sprint cancel then players would be forced to wait til the gun wield/draw animation completes before they could fire their weapon which by that time they would be in the ocean.

@EastThread51441 so your point is, that we need the ability to quickfire in order to board ships?
I guess it really depends on how you want to play the game and which side you are on.

I am usually very active during PvP, trying to win the fights via naval combat.
Boarding just is the very final part of that fight when they already have a lot of pressure.

So I am not someone who tries to board repaired ships, that are not under pressure yet.
As long as ladder juking is possible, I will just throw blunder bombs at my ladder and then go back to cannon. =D

My point was that if Rare stopped sprint from acting as a bypass to the draw animation and weapons were considered to be stowed
when a player climbs a ladder then it would be way harder to be able to drop, shoot and regrab. You would likely end up in the ocean.

Oh, so you meant it that way. I see now. Thanks for explaining. =)
And yes, I think that mechanic would fit better into the SoT gameplay style.

Being able to use one handed weapons on the ladder would be alright. ;-)
I would be able to understand it from a defending player's perspective.

Right now the confusing and weird part is the "double handed weapon" can be shot "right after"/during climbing.
It is not a realistic game - but this mechanic still feels weird to me, whenever someone uses it.

And it often looks like they never had a gun in their hand from a defending player's perspective.
Which makes this whole mechanic even more weird. (ping/descync/client/server-issue?)

I have been thinking about this topic for quite some time while playing SoT
and I think my main point I want to make is:

SoT is not your classic fast paced FPS game.
Being able to quickdraw/quickfire from a ladder feels out of place in this game.

Same thing is true for players standing on helm with weapon drawn.
They can just turn, let go, spam left click to shoot and regrab steering wheel.
(and again: you often do not see their weapon during this - feels weird)

The game could use a bit more realism in this specific part of the game.
This can be hard to achieve without everything feeling clunky. I know that.
Not an easy topic to get right. ^^

We might be within the "tools not rules" mindset, though.
Difficult to decide where we draw the line of it becoming "unfair".

@drfauli
The sword's ability to lunge you clean across the entirety of the galleon's hull always seemed weird to me. I mean really - what about a hunk of metal gives you the superpower to pull a move like that? Why don't guns have this ability - there's nothing inherent about a sword that allows someone to do such a thing. Should guns have this ability to launch yourself forward 40 feet? I think a lot of swordsman would disagree even though the object doesn't give the power itself. It's okay I don't want it.

I'll let them have their fun 🤷 even though they always seem hellbent about removing every possible thing away from the way gun users play.

Different strokes for different folks. The two sides will always be at odds - and you know what.. that speaks for a level of balance. If one side was complaining and the other wasn't there would be an issue. But every gun user I've met complains about the sword, and every sword user I've met complains about the gun. 😂 Now together we must find a common enemy amongst the new weapons.

The entire sword lunge story and how it went from exploit to "cool game mechanic"
already tells a lot about the way Rare wants SoT to be played and enjoyed. =)

Sword lunge is one of those very edge cases with a mix of fun movement,
but also very unbalanced movement and attack power in PvP. ^^

It can be quite fun to lunge towards the anchor of a gally,
where somehow 3 out of 4 people decided to help raise it,
while a boarder is there, trying to keep you away from it.

Being able to do so much damage to 3 or maybe even 4 players
does indeed feel a bit overpowered, but they have kept it in the game since launch.

Using the sword in PvE also can be quite a lot of fun.
Getting back to your ship also is fun with the lunge. ;-)

In the end all we can do is talk about personal preference
and try to point out things that we do not like,
hoping that Rare will read our opinion, think about it
and maybe at some point decide to change something. =)

@eastthread51441 Right but then it will be painfully slow and endanger good movement mechanics, when we sprint its not bc we are always trying to get faster swaps, its bc we need to strafe or we get shot.

@itzeggward
Exactly! It's not about a 2 gun user against a sword player.. it's a 2 gun user against another 2 gun user which I was highlighting in my original post.

Being unable to sprint means you're unable to dodge bullets being returned to you, and not able to chase your opponent. It restricts movements and makes the weapons feel clunky to use.

@bleu-solo пишет в Weapon switching still isn't fair - Here's why:

[Point 2]

Before the quickswap patch, everyone was capable of doing a quickswap (provided they knew how) - however since quickswap was patched it has become something cheaters can enable in a mod menu. Something we all once were capable of and able to compete with has become exclusive to people that cheat. Leading to greater unfairness when coming across cheaters.

Strongly agree with that. The whole quickswap 'fix' thing now looks like just an attack on skilled players, while cheaters just do not care.

@cptn-blo0d
Hey I'm all for Rare's decision to remove quickswap so long as it is fixed the right way, fair way, smooth way. But my point here is Rare has really got to go after the quickswap cheaters now that they've removed it for all legitimate players. They've just given the advantage to the cheaters for who's going to win a gunfight.

Since the removal of the quickswap exploit: cheaters created the quickswap mod, whereas it didn't exist before and it's even worse than the exploit.. because they don't even need to sprint or move at all - it's done automatically because they are modifying the game code. There's another cheat they use and call "fast scope" which skips the ADS animation too.

They tried to punish the "bad actors" by removing quickswap - however they just gave "bad actors" an even bigger advantage in the end. We need better follow through on [Point 2]

@captain-fob4141 said in Weapon switching still isn't fair - Here's why:

@bleu-solo I do get you perspective. I understand wanting the thing you enjoy to be focused on. But you need to police your side of the community or find a game with better weapon feel.

PVE players call me slurs all the time. Please lower value of skulls.

Game shouldn't be balanced around exploiters and cheaters. I think this is given. It's up to devs to remove the exploits.

What OP is suggesting is very reasonable. This isn't about shooting quicker. It's about consistency and fluidity which they ruined with their lazy bandaid "fix".

@e3pos yes games shouldn't be balanced around cheaters, and devs shouldn't need to waste time removing the ability to hold a fishing rod next to a cannon to prevent people from cheating when there are other game breaking bugs going on with core features of an update. People choosing to cheat and exploit should be shunned by their part of the community as much as people name calling, using explitives, or slurs.

@eastthread51441
You maybe mistaken. Being able to ADS without sprinting after switching weapons was in the game on release in 2018 - which was the reason OG quickswap was able to be performed and an instant 2-shot. As stated by the developers in 2019 the wield delay was introduced specifically to put a delay BETWEEN the FIRST and the SECOND shot with no mention of it to put a delay on the first shot.

What you see as an exploit here with your example may actually be a bug with the implementation of switching weapons without sprinting. As I have already pointed out - the sword is able to perform an attack/block without completing the full wield animation and perhaps this is the intention of the wield animation upon the first shot of a gun - we can only speculate.

But given that the guns were changed a year after release when they had originally been able to ADS right away - it's more likely that as a result of the 2019 quickswap patch it broke this ability when the real intention was to delay the Time-To-Kill between first and second shot.

@eastthread51441
I'm sorry - I don't think you understood my post.

It cannot be said which is the real bug. Being able to ADS after the sprint or not ADS when you switch weapons. The origin of the wield is to delay FIRST and SECOND shot not to delay FIRST. As upon release in 2018 there was not an ADS delay when swapping weapons. The consequence of an attempt to patch quickswapping in 2019 could have been this delay on the First shot which by the sounds of it should not exist.

Once again - the sword does not need the full wield animation to attack or block which stands to reason that the guns wouldn't either for the FIRST shot.

We can only speculate.

@eastthread51441
Yes that's correct.

How it's gone unnoticed for so long is your example actually impacts players less often than the example given in my original post - since most people have their gun ready when they want to shoot their first shot, or they are already coming off a sprint naturally and want to shoot.

If you had to suffer the full wield animation after every time you sprint the guns would really not feel responsive at all and would be extra clunky.

Once again - the ADS animation in itself is kind of like a draw/wield animation and if I were to pull out a weapon in a real scenario - I would pull it out straight into ADS, not to the side/pointed in the sky.. A logical conclusion. The same as the sword can block right away or attack straight away - it's just naturally what someone would do.

So if the developers only intended for the wield animation to be uninterruptible for a brief moment after you fire a gun then why is it that unless I sprint after I begin the draw animation I am forced to wait until the gun comes to a stop before I can hipfire or fire + ads?

Why isn’t the draw animation for guns interruptible like the sword wield animation is as long as I didn’t just fire a shot?

I can only speculate given what information we have heard from the developers on the subject since release. But yes - I believe the draw animation should be interruptible just like the sword when switching so there is no trick needed to get the weapon ready. But I also believe there should be an unskippable delay between first and second shot, where everyone should have the ability to shoot the first and last shot the same speed. During this delay - the wield animation will play, up until the timer has expired the wield animation will blend to ADS.

As you mentioned, some players may not realize this is how it is - and correcting it so that players don't need to sprint to get their weapon ready would be ideal. I think this is a bug left over from 2019 when they first patched OG quickswapping which allowed you to instantly shoot both weapons by adding the wield animation & delay.

Should the full wield delay it effect the first bullet fired? Probably not - otherwise the weapons would feel extremely slow and unresponsive.. some of the battles in high elo hourglass are high intensity, and having to wait a full second to pull out your weapon every time you sprint would impact a battle's intensity.

@eastthread51441
Funny enough.. if there already is a hidden "Ready-To-Fire" timer - one small patch should fix both issues we are talking about.

If the gun is Ready-To-Fire (timer is not active); then allow ADS to occur. Else keep playing the wield animation.

• Switching weapons without firing a shot recently - the timer will not be active in this scenario.. allowing a player to aim without sprinting as with your example making that fair for players that don't know about sprinting.

• Firing a shot is what would cause the timer to start and be active.. meaning the player cannot ADS and another bullet cannot be fired too quickly but once the timer has run out the ADS can occur even if the player sprinted.. making it fair for those who sprinted under or over the time requirement to shoot their next shot. Shoot speed remains consistent instead of feeling random as it does currently.

@eastthread51441 @Bleu-Solo guys I might blow your mind but that is exactly how the game currently works. They placed it on a timer after the quick swap remove, tweaked it a little to fix the double pull out and now that's how the game currently works. I'm glad we could come to a consensus that the game works good.

@itzeggward
This information does not blow my mind because I realize exactly how it works. While it is on a timer currently it doesn't prevent situations like this from happening - where one player who sprinted for less time shoots later than a player that sprinted for more time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8gYHFhnMss

Also as @EastThread51441 explains - the wield is forced to complete for swapping weapons, but not for swapping and sprinting.

Game not work good.