The new changes make zero sense, how are you going to make the brig the worst ship of the 3 and give ALL the advantage to a 2 man or a 4 man crew? The only thing the brig had was speed and now there is zero advantage to using a brig.
Brig Speed and handling
@xtailsx said in Brig Speed and handling:
The new changes make zero sense, how are you going to make the brig the worst ship of the 3 and give ALL the advantage to a 2 man or a 4 man crew?
It's never the worst of the 3. It's in the middle. Faster than a sloop when it can get full billow, faster than a galleon when it can't.
The only thing the brig had was speed and now there is zero advantage to using a brig.
More firepower than a sloop. Easier to manage than a galleon. If you have 3 players, it's the ideal middleground.
I'm sorry you have to hear this, but the speed change was the totally correct decision.
Hmmm just chased a sloop and we had full wind on a brig and the time it took us to catch them is too much for how FAST the sloop can handle. The buffs for the sloop and the gally I understand but the speed drop on the brig just made it the worst of the 3 I promise you. I am a day one player and the brig is DEAD!! More cannons but a sloop can turn on a dime at full speed so unless you play vs new players you are at a disadvantage.
@clxppyyy Basically this. Literally chasing a sloop with full wind and it felt like they were faster than us.
@xtailsx said in Brig Speed and handling:
Hmmm just chased a sloop and we had full wind on a brig and the time it took us to catch them is too much for how FAST the sloop can handle.
Why were you chasing down a sloop as a brig and expecting an easy catch? It's a 3 v 1 or 3 v 2 scenario. It's part of the natural balance that they, as the underdogs, should have the "out".
Regarding you having full billow and them still being faster... well...
The buffs for the sloop and the gally I understand but the speed drop on the brig just made it the worst of the 3 I promise you.
... Rare will have the data on this better than anyone. If they decide they've over-done on the nerf, they will adjust it. But we're less than a week into this update and it's too early to make judgments based on anecdotes.
Is there a chance they had a Horn of Fair Winds on board?
I am a day one player and the brig is DEAD!!
Day one player also, nice to meet you. Not sure of the relevance other than showing a misplaced sense of hyperbole to the situation, especially as we didn't have brigs day one.
More cannons but a sloop can turn on a dime at full speed so unless you play vs new players you are at a disadvantage.
And they're at a disadvantage if you manage to catch them.
A brig can demast a sloop instantly if both cannoneers are good shots. You can also apply more pressure preventing them getting on cannon whilst spreading shots to create more holes. You have an extra player you can send to board whilst still maintaining pressure and being able to helm/bucket.
@realstyli said in Brig Speed and handling:
@xtailsx said in Brig Speed and handling:
Hmmm just chased a sloop and we had full wind on a brig and the time it took us to catch them is too much for how FAST the sloop can handle.
Why were you chasing down a sloop as a brig and expecting an easy catch? It's a 3 v 1 or 3 v 2 scenario. It's part of the natural balance that they, as the underdogs, should have the "out".
That is the point! If you can just run away from a brig on a gally or a sloop, what advantage does the brig have? I don't want an easy catch I want to play to the strengths of the boat I am on.
Regarding you having full billow and them still being faster... well...
Well what? The sloop is too fast was my point did you miss that?The buffs for the sloop and the gally I understand but the speed drop on the brig just made it the worst of the 3 I promise you.
... Rare will have the data on this better than anyone. If they decide they've over-done on the nerf, they will adjust it. But we're less than a week into this update and it's too early to make judgments based on anecdotes.
True, I forgot insiders was pointless.
Is there a chance they had a Horn of Fair Winds on board?
NegativeI am a day one player and the brig is DEAD!!
Day one player also, nice to meet you. Not sure of the relevance other than showing a misplaced sense of hyperbole to the situation, especially as we didn't have brigs day one.
It means I am not coming at this with any bias to one ship as I have used all 3 MANY times, not sure how else I can explain that for you to understand.More cannons but a sloop can turn on a dime at full speed so unless you play vs new players you are at a disadvantage.
And they're at a disadvantage if you manage to catch them.
A brig can demast a sloop instantly if both cannoneers are good shots. You can also apply more pressure preventing them getting on cannon whilst spreading shots to create more holes. You have an extra player you can send to board whilst still maintaining pressure and being able to helm/bucket.
Right....ONLY IF you catch them.@xtailsx said in Brig Speed and handling:
That is the point! If you can just run away from a brig on a gally or a sloop, what advantage does the brig have? I don't want an easy catch I want to play to the strengths of the boat I am on.
In order for a gally to outrun a brig, they are going to have to manage their sails correctly with the wind. A galleon could always outrun a brig with the wind but are now severally punished into the wind or when billow is lost.
The brig's advantage is still firepower/crew size against a sloop, and easier manageability against a galleon.
Well what? The sloop is too fast was my point did you miss that?
The "well" followed by an ellipsis was to indicate I would get to that in my next point. Hence, the start of the next part with an ellipsis as well.
True, I forgot insiders was pointless.
We can't comment on Insiders. BUT Retail is the only true test of anything as it's going to have a lot more players involved and significantly more data to gather than any test group. This is true for any live service game, there's only so much testing can be done before release.
Is there a chance they had a Horn of Fair Winds on board?
Negative
Well, I had to ask to rule it out.
It means I am not coming at this with any bias to one ship as I have used all 3 MANY times, not sure how else I can explain that for you to understand.
Again, day one means nothing in this scenario. If it's somehow to indicate knowledge, it doesn't. I know plenty of day one players with less hours than someone playing for half that time. I'm a day one player and I only have just over 147 days (around 3500 hours) in the game.
I spend most of my time on sloops and brigs, so I definitely have a bias towards those two over galleons... only because galleons are unwieldy and chaotic without a regular crew.
Right....ONLY IF you catch them.
Correct. Again, it's the natural balance that they should have an out against a larger crew. Brigs have been regarded as the bullies of the seas for too long, so this nerf was needed. Even when I sailed on a brig, I always thought it was too easy to keep up with a sloop.
None of this is to say this scenario didn't occur but, again, it's early days (less than 5 days) and far too soon to judge how things are balanced.
If it does actually turn out that with full billow a sloop is always faster than a brig, that should be looked at as it's not the intended outcome, according to Rare themselves.
I agree...we have to remember that the Sloop and Gally are basically tanks and the brig only has one level before they are sunk...so the only thing the brig really had was its speed over a Gally turning and 1 more cannon than the sloop...yes, the brig has 1 more player than the sloop but sloop has its ability to tank, maneuverability, and now after this patch it has speed in certain occasions over a Brig in fights...in order to do anything on a brig you need to focus sails almost too much based on the speed penalty that the brig received when out of wind and even losing one sail or losing wind in a sail is a make or break in a fight if you can't keep up with either ship currently...there has been a youtube video from HitboTC that even says that the Gally is actually faster against wind than the brig? not sure how that is even right.... so now no matter with or without wind a Gally is faster.... right now, the brig just seems like it lost a lot of its ability to swing fights in its favor and be able to fight to the brig's strengths or keep up with the pressure and speed of a Gally or the movement and speed (in certain occasions) of a Sloop.
What the Brig lost in speed it has more than made up for it in combat scenarios. It's now the best circle strafer in the game due to how the other two ships can no longer achieve the same results as before the speed changes patch.
https://youtu.be/OmT2U8I-NDI?si=zmZ6W9MDO1iSOfNq
This wasn't intended by the devs but none the less it certainly gives the Brig a slight edge in handling over the Sloop and a massive advantage in handling vs the Galleon.
I agree, the brig has lost one of it's few positives and I personally think it's more optimal to either split up your crew into 2 sloops and meet up in the same server or find a 4th to play on a Galleon.
Brig just doesn't feel fun or fulfilling to play anymore, you can be going full speed with wind and still barely catch up to sloops.
@vaughnsilver said in Brig Speed and handling:
I agree, the brig has lost one of it's few positives and I personally think it's more optimal to either split up your crew into 2 sloops and meet up in the same server or find a 4th to play on a Galleon.
Brig just doesn't feel fun or fulfilling to play anymore, you can be going full speed with wind and still barely catch up to sloops.
Sloops had to deal with the overpowered speed of the brig for years, I'm
surehopeful Rare will apply changes to make it more as they intended quicker than that.@karkona said in Brig Speed and handling:
Are the brig crews upset they have to work harder to catch sloops now?
Yeah, one of two things are happening:
- there is an issue, genuinely, and the changes aren't been reflected in gameplay as intended (the brig should still have the speed advantage when both ships have full billow, even if it's only slight). The sloop should never be faster in that scenario, without any other factors (e.g. HoFW, SoSS).
or
- Brig players are trying to make it seem that way to try to make Rare reverse the changes, so they can continue to hunt smaller crews easily.
If it's genuine, I'm sure that will be apparent after more data is gathered and Rare should make adjustments. I still think that the changes are good on paper and will lead to a better balanced sandbox.
@realstyli actually a galleon is faster against the wind now compared to a brig... brig is the slowest in all situations except running away from a sloop with the wind.
We don't need to reverse the nerf, but the brig went from the fastest ship to the worst ship, it now sinks the fastest, is the easiest to deck shot (sits lowest in the water), has the most slow scenarios in a fight, and gets outgunned (2 cannons on a 3 man crew so can't get a full cannon like a galleon). It's good that it's not faster than the other ships in all scenarios but it definitely needs a buff to either cannon power or sink rate.
@captain-fob4141 said in Brig Speed and handling:
@realstyli actually a galleon is faster against the wind now compared to a brig... brig is the slowest in all situations except running away from a sloop with the wind.
This is not the intention, according to Rare themselves. The brig should be in the center in both scenarios, with the sloop being fastest against wind and galleon being fastest with the wind - when sails are optimally managed.
@realstyli right, so you agree that people can be upset about the mistake.
IF the mistake gets corrected, the speed issue will be fine but the other drawbacks remain.
@realstyli said in Brig Speed and handling:
@xtailsx said in Brig Speed and handling:
The new changes make zero sense, how are you going to make the brig the worst ship of the 3 and give ALL the advantage to a 2 man or a 4 man crew?
It's never the worst of the 3. It's in the middle. Faster than a sloop when it can get full billow, faster than a galleon when it can't.
You are wrong here mate. In any and all cases if you catch as much wind as possible the ship with more sails is going to be faster.
They wel and truly clipped the brigs wings
Sidewind and crosswind scenarios will also now favour the Galleon when all sails are catching the maximum amount of wind. However, Galleon crews who mismanage the wind will suffer the largest penalty.
Only sail mismanagement is punished harder per sail present.
However even if you are going a direction where you cant full billow then catching as much as possible is best available management and thus galleon beats brig
If only people warning for this weren’t ignored in earlier stages where it was very clear that both the galleon and sloop have a place where they can shine but the brig is the only ship that cant (anymore) with these changes
@callmebackdraft said in Brig Speed and handling:
@realstyli said in Brig Speed and handling:
@xtailsx said in Brig Speed and handling:
The new changes make zero sense, how are you going to make the brig the worst ship of the 3 and give ALL the advantage to a 2 man or a 4 man crew?
It's never the worst of the 3. It's in the middle. Faster than a sloop when it can get full billow, faster than a galleon when it can't.
You are wrong here mate. In any and all cases if you catch as much wind as possible the ship with more sails is going to be faster.
They wel and truly clipped the brigs wings
Sidewind and crosswind scenarios will also now favour the Galleon when all sails are catching the maximum amount of wind. However, Galleon crews who mismanage the wind will suffer the largest penalty.
Only sail mismanagement is punished harder per sail present.
However even if you are going a direction where you cant full billow then catching as much as possible is best available management and thus galleon beats brig
In that scenario, the brig should still be beating the sloop. Again, if we go on what Rare have said, the brig is never the slowest of the three. Just because it's never the best, doesn't make it always the worst.
@realstyli it is still better then the sloop, because more sails = more wind to catch but sloop can just go into headwind and be gone.
There is not a single situation that gives a sparkle to the brig.
What i find stupid is.
Before the physics changes a couple of years ago each ship had their own top podium spot where it could beat any other ship
GALLEON:straight tail wind
BRIG: cross wind
SLOOP: headwindWith these new changes its:
GALLEON: any situation where it catches most wind as possible
SLOOP: headwind
Brig: whomp whompAs a brig you have to hope for sail/ship mismanagement in any and all situations
Again, you looking at it like the brig is losing in every scenario. When it's not.
It's not winning in those scenarios, sure, but the third spot is taken by one of the other ships. It's still in a good spot all round. It's still got more firepower and crew spots than a sloop, it's still easier to manage and maneuver than a galleon.
And going on LoonieToque's initial findings (video posted by VakrisOne above) the Brig is now the easiest to maintain a consistent death spiral on, effectively buffing its utility in combat scenarios.
I spend most of my time on Brigs and Sloops, and it was clear that there was a balance issue. In every scenario, the smaller (disadvantaged) crew should be the one with the option to get away, if they sail correctly - this is part of the natural balance in a game that mixes up various crew sizes and skill levels in one sandbox. It's time for Brigs to stop being the bullies of the sea.
We're in the early days of this patch, so I would give it time for folks to discover the optimal strategies for sails management in given conditions. I'm sure someone is working on the Sea of Science.
@callmebackdraft said in Brig Speed and handling:
And also, i might add. Still ever since those physics changes years ago any and all ships take ages to come to a stop when raising sail….
And they still just wont stop or stay still even when anchored the damned things turn and move slowly
Oh, yeah, this is something I do wish they would look at as it's highly annoying an unnecessary. I've just gotten in the habit of always dropping and raising the anchor every stop now, but I wish that wasn't needed.
@realstyli again the intent is different from the reality... the brig is never faster than a galleon and it is only sometimes faster than a sloop.
If a brig needs to run it can only run away from a sloop.It needed a nerf but they went too far and need to adjust the speed so it can outrun a galleon or adjust its sink rate or firepower.
Personally, I think the galleon SHOULD be slower in all situations because it has more firepower. But that's probably not going to happen.
The brig is the bridge, its better then the Galleon against the wind, its better than the sloop with the wind. So while it is not the “Best ship” it has its advantages.
Since it only has two sails, it is much quicker to adjust to wind changes than the Galleon, so it can out perform it pretty well. One other benefit of the Brig, is since it only has two cannons on each side, you aren’t sacrificing much if someone is focused on boarding and causing chaos.
You are looking at one aspect, but failing to include all the benefits the brig has over other ships.
The Brig can bilge better than any other ship in the game, since you don’t have to move much… and can stay mostly under cover when doing so
The Brig is much quicker to repair than a Galleon, and has much quicker access to the barrels compared to the Galleon or Sloop.
The Brig’s Helm has much quicker access for the pilot to jump to Cannons if the 3rd player is focusing on deep repairs.
Heck, a brig can have a dedicated cannoneer, a dedicated repair person, and a dedicated flex who can handle piloting, bilging, and cannoning remaining much more optimal with everything especially when compared to a Galleon.
The only thing the Brig lost out on was being the fastest in situations it wasn’t meant to be, so it was easily overpowering most ships prior to the sail change. Brig crews just need to focus on having speed be not the thing that wins them battles, and realize it has many more benefits.
Yeah, if what you're saying is correct, then the implementation is broken, because at the bare minimum the brig should be faster than a galleon when going into a headwind. It should be sloop beats brig beats galleon in that scenario. If that's not the case, something is very wrong.
I would also say the galleon didn't need the small speed buff it got, which may also be a factor in what's going on.
@reverend-toast you cannot say that the Brig has quicker access to the barrels than the sloop you can turn around at any point in the bottom of the ship and have access to the barrel without even moving...not to mention that doesn't even matter due to blue creates on any ship.
The sloop has full cover from the back to bilge and hide to heal...The brig does not have this type of cover also the popcorn effect that sometimes happens on the brig...and if you are good a bilge on a Gally you can just go through the grate of the gally which is the same as a brig at that point and many more places to run to heal and cover.
and if we are talking about dedicated cannoneers and roles...The gally has many more players, cannons, water levels, and now speed with and without wind after this patch so there is no running or resets for the brig in these fights.
having speed to out death circle a gally was key and now that the gally has a bigger speed boost they can actually out turn a brig...same with a sloop they get more speed in any wind and the speed penalty doesn't affect it as much, so the death circle is easier now for a sloop over a brig.@reverend-toast the intent was that the brig be faster against the wind. The execution has the galleon as being faster than the brig in all situations and the brig only being faster than the sloop with the wind.
@xtailsx full billow in a crosswind is where the brig trumps a sloop it sounds to me that you don't understand how your ship is supposed to be used and enjoy chasing smaller crews..... wahhh wahhh
The brig did not only have speed, it had a larger crew than the sloop and more guns. Its not made useless, its just made balanced in the way it was intended to be from the beginning. A ship that is between the sloop and galleon in terms of survivability, speed, damage and turning. Its a middle ground ship in essence, if you play with it like the chaser/runner ship as it used to be when it had more speed than it ever should have, without regard for what you are chasing or runnig from, then you may not do so well sure.
It is capable of running from both the sloop and galleon if it is used correctly, but every ship was supposed to have a direction that they can run from the others and not be caught, but before the brig was the only ship capable of catching both the galleon and sloop even if they were sailing their optimal direction. It wasnt balanced before, and the community voiced that for quite a long time.
@xtailsx said in Brig Speed and handling:
More cannons but a sloop can turn on a dime at full speed
This exact argument applies and always has applied for sloop vs galleon just the same, and in fact the galleon is worse off since it turns far slower than the brigantine. The logic really does not follow when you consider that this entire claim has been the case always and is unchanged even now.
The brig is not supposed to shine in any particular instance. It's been overpowered for years with many frequent complaints about it.
The error here is all the Brig stans assuming it's supposed to be like Rock-Paper-Scissors where each one can beat one of the others and in turn be beaten by one of the others for true equality, but it's not the way this is supposed to work. This is a 'Gold-Silver-Bronze' situation. It's better than the sloop in some instances and better than the Galleon in some instances but never better than both at the same time. That's what being mid-tier means.
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