Contextual PVP...or lack thereof

@tybald so do you remove pve for pvp factions? what is the implications for pve players?

@qu1etone
Similar to the original concept of the Emissary system, you opt in to it. Higher reward for higher risk. If you do not belong to a faction, there is no extra reward for attacking you.

Options include:

1. Multiple Ships, so you leave some unflagged.
2. Charter ships.

It's an interesting idea, I don't think we should ever remove emissaries as so much of the gameplay and commendations are linked to them.

I also would worry about just the winning faction receiving something, as this would have a high risk of being farmed by alliance servers and thus they would dictate the winning faction and it would be outside of most of playerbases power to do anything.

They have kind of done this with servants and guardians, just obviously restricted to hourglass mode

@hiradc said in Contextual PVP...or lack thereof:

It's an interesting idea, I don't think we should ever remove emissaries as so much of the gameplay and commendations are linked to them.

I also would worry about just the winning faction receiving something, as this would have a high risk of being farmed by alliance servers and thus they would dictate the winning faction and it would be outside of most of playerbases power to do anything.

They have kind of done this with servants and guardians, just obviously restricted to hourglass mode

On a loop system, the rewards should generally be something that impacts the state of the game next loop, but should not be self-reinforcing. There might also be some sort of gold reward based on something akin to Emissary value. As the way the game is structured, you'll likely end up playing on all factions over time, unless you use your own ship.

I said if done, remove emissaries because it essentially replaces the purpose of the emissary system. You could very well graft this loop into the emissary system itself and use 5 factions instead of 3.

@tybald what's the end game here? Every week/month the winning faction gets a prize? Do I pledge to one faction a week/month?

@qu1etone

I think we want to avoid "wins a prize" concept.

With a loop, the loop changes something about the game after each loop. I'm going to just use a few of the upcoming changes as an example, but not an actual suggestion. (It's not a perfect example, it's just for illustration purposes...)

We have some new things coming in upcoming seasons. Let's say Harpoon Gun, Horn of Winds, Skelly Bomb (Let's assume for the moment that the harpoon gun is a consumable item, not a weapon-slot item). Under the above, instead of introducing them all at once, you give each one to a faction. If Faction A wins, then the Harpoon Gun is available for purchase and use. If Faction B wins, the Horn of Winds is. Finally, if Faction C wins, the Skelly Bomb is. A faction that doesn't win, does not offer it's item.

So, at any given time, only one of the 3 items is available, and that item will switch depending on the faction that wins. Plus, having said item available changes the tactics over the next loop.

I think your premise of Reaper being the PvP faction is wrong.

Other emissaries have also reason to attack other emissaries, a Gold Hoarder might have their eyes on the chests of another Gold Hoarder or the chests an OoS might have on board after doing a (not raided) Fleet or Fort. Same goes for non-emissary crews that spot an emissary vessel, at least they know they'll get some reward.

Only having 5 ships on a server (even with 6) it will be hard to find ships of an opposing faction as I doubt many more crews will sail for a faction than they currently do for an emissary. People might think that crews within the same faction would or should be friendly ...

@tybald sounds like an exclusive pvp club. I'm what you would call a long time casual player and my only contribution to this idea would be how many times I get pirated a month thus giving points to the other factions.

@qu1etone
It's anything but an exclusive PVP club.

Unlike the original concept of Emissary, you don't "sign up to be hunted for a reward" if you go other than reapers. Instead you signup to represent a faction, and if you choose to do that, you help your faction "win" with everything you do, and you get rewarded, but it DOES come with the risk of PVP.

As a casual, you entirely have the chance to jump in and help a faction...you do risk being attacked.

I think your faction idea could work, but to me, the problem is always and has always been that rewards are too far in the future, and often not satisfying. I can see your idea possibly having the same issue in which it will be interesting for a while to participate, but after a certain point or reward, people won't care again.

SoT falls into the trap of thinking that gold and reputation is enough because there are a few cosmetics way in the distance once you do something enough times, but what the game really needs is a gameplay loop in which certain actions you take have immediate bearing on what you choose to do next.

PvP falls into the same trap. Many people choose not to PvP because it is either too mean or not profitable, and they are right to avoid it for those reasons. There are other people who want to PvP, and are encouraged to wait until events are nearly complete before attacking, i.e. making PvP one-sided with barely any advantage for the defender. This is a problem because it makes PvP "evil" as you said.

What I would like to see is doubloons reset / auto cashed out. Doubloons become the PvP & competitive voyage currency which have an upper cap.
This gives purpose to constantly PvP. You can't accumulate doubloons forever, you can carry maybe 1000 max before you must spend them and then go get more.

Skull of siren song reward is replaced with doubloons.

Doubloons now have a new use... to spawn instanced dungeons that can be either competitive or cooperative, or soloable. You get more rewards for taking on harder dungeons by yourself or by allowing another crew to invade you (who also must pay some entry fee). These dungeons have unique challenges and conditions, and because they are instanced, are very well balanced & more dynamic than would be allowed in the open world.

When you play, you spend some doubloons on the ability to raise emissary flag, and lose these doubloons when sinking to the other crew, but get them back when you lower. Side note: I would personally make emissary flags mandatory on high seas, and remove Reaper ability to see other emissaries at level 5, but also make them not visible on map. Every ship on server with emissary + not being visible is more than fair to get rid of its ability at Level 5.

Basic instanced dungeons can be spawned with doubloons alone, but harder and more interesting dungeons require crews to sacrifice loot in the game at alters which spawn after world events, or combinations of special character bound items you get from completing lower level dungeons. Example: combine an athena chest with an ashen skull to spawn the Legendary Ashen dungeon in which enemies have high movement speed and cause burning damage on top of the victory conditions. The combinations of items for these special dungeons would change every season, with some standard combinations everyone can learn. The sacrifice items can come from multiple crews with the crews placing the items getting access to the portal in the case of competitive or cooperative dungeons. This encourages crews to interact to combine items more readily, with crews either working together or engaging in PvP.

Rewards from the dungeons are rare drops like a lot of MMOs with a reason to play them often and to challenge yourself to take them on with fewer crewmates or in a competitive setting (for higher chance of better reward). Most of the time, you will simply get doubloons back & a new quest item tied to your character to spawn more or unique dungeons, but sometimes you will get the new cosmetic item to use. Rare will add new drops every season, new combinations of items to discover (castaway chest + Skull of Siren's song = ???) and new dungeon types when possible.

@calicorsaircat

If you dive deeper into the loop logic, you would see that the primary rewards for looping competitions isn't direct player rewards, but instead they are game-state changes for the duration of the next loop. That may be a new world event, temporary consumables that go up for sale over the duration (for example, the upcoming skelly bomb would be a good consumable reward) etc.

So, you participate in the loop so that you're preferred faction wins, and the game-state changes to one that you prefer. It's 'always relevant' because when a faction loses, the game-state that their win goes away. The world event won't spawn, the items aren't for sale, etc.

@lem0n-curry

We can argue semantics, but my point of view is this. Other factions CAN (and do) pvp. However, the reapers were introduced with the primary focus of hunting other pirates. They were added with the emissary system as the 'risk' for the added 'reward' that the emissary system provided. You opted into Emissary, reapers (level 5) could see you, and hunt you down. They (originally) got less rewards per item of loot, but got a bonus when it was stolen.

From the season 2 patch notes:

Who are The Reaper’s Bones?
A rebellious Trading Company comprised of those who believe themselves to be at the top of the pirate food chain. They’re on the hunt for the most fearless pirates to undermine the other Trading Companies by stealing loot from under their noses and, in particular, to assert their dominance over those Companies by targeting their Emissaries.
...
How do I raise my Emissary Grade for The Reaper’s Bones?
Again, by serving them. Acquiring loot and bringing it to your ship will see your Emissary Grade advance, especially if you’ve stolen that loot from someone else – but above all else, the Reapers want their representatives to assert dominance over other Emissaries on the seas. This even includes other Reaper’s Bones Emissaries. It’s a dog-eat-dog world, and The Reaper’s Bones are seeking to reward the top dogs. Defeating Emissaries in pirate-to-pirate combat will raise your Emissary Grade, as will retrieving Emissary Flags. So sink Emissary Ships to cause their flag to break away, allowing you to pick up this trophy of your victory to bring back to The Reaper’s Hideout.

Now you are right, PVP wasn't the sole source of PVP, but they were the faction that was focused around it.

@tybald I definitely could see game-state changes being a good idea, and have proposed similar ideas in the past. I'm with you there and think add more dynamic elements to the SoT is a good idea.

However, I think that availability of resources or world events might be the wrong thread to pull. In my blunt opinion, people just don't care about accessing the same stuff they have in the past more or less frequently. It would be a net positive to have it, but I think to drive PvP engagement there are better ways.

Game needs a loop of content that cycles between exciting, challenging content where you really need to put your best foot forward and more grindy content like we have now. While I do believe in the core concept of emergent gameplay and "tools not rules", there is value in having a semi-structured loop where players know what they are getting into with PvP.

It is one of the reasons I think hourglass has not done as well as it could have because without a time limit, people don't know how long the match will take. It is also the reason that organic PvP is boring for some / perceived as evil by others. There is still no good place to engage regularly in PvP while experiencing everything that Sea of Thieves has to offer that both crews feel mutually motivated for PvP. Arena was trying for this, but engagement was low because matchmaking was terrible at the beginning and I think it was just too much chaos for some. HG is failing for almost the opposite reasons, it is too structured in ways people don't like (open seas combat without much else going on) and not structured enough in ways they want (a time limit). They need something in the middle which are crafted experiences for 2, maybe 3 ships to compete within without interference from other players, with some mechanics that allow combat to be both land and sea.

Example: an instanced dungeon that is a river with forks. Crews go down in then reach standing water. The ships autodock when reaching a certain point and crews must fight over a treasure on land. Ships are immune during this time. This cycle repeats 3 times. Whoever has the most of the treasure wins, or whoever is last ship standing.

PvPing in the game world becomes a means to more quickly accesses this more challenging (sometimes PvP) content which gives it a greater purpose.

@calicorsaircat
Realize you aren't taking away already existing items. When you introduce the faction system the items they sell are NEW items/events/features. (I've used some as basic illustrative examples, but it would really be up to the devs to determine them).

Think of it this way, you suggested using doubloons to purchase your way into some sort of dungeon. The winning faction might open up a particular dungeon type. Though, TBH, I don't think the game needs dungeons....feels wrong to me.

@tybald I think cycling in new content only when one faction wins might work if there was a reason to want different content at different times, but from what I have seen in this game, Rare has trouble balancing things like that. People tend to just gravitate to whatever content earns the most money, rep, etc. and ultimately my concern boils down to the best players will ultimately keep winning, and players will ultimately just side with the winner in most cases. The items, events, features favored by the winner will simply become the meta, especially if the things that change in the world favor the winners playstyle which they probably would.

I just can't see players wanting to switch around. What I would rather see is the world change on a normal cadence and players respond to that change, which is where I was going with the instanced dungeons being something you sacrifice items and doubloons to get into. Rare could change the requirements and force players together that way. Ashen winds skull becomes required for all dungeons for 1 month for example, now those events are heavily contested.

I think any new content should just be new, and the reason I say dungeons (or you can call them instanced events if you like, I'm not really referring to dungeons as like caves but more in the general MMO sense) is that that content could basically serve the same purpose. It is something that you earn and PvP becomes one of the ways to more readily earn it. I suggest it mostly because Rare has proven they can't introduce things to the main sea of thieves without breaking everything (player cap, lag, exploits). In my opinion, Rare needs to double down on sea of thieves on demand and leave adventure alone. No more clutter, just polish. Add more dynamic content in instanced areas where they can control the event and create tailored difficult PvE and PvP experiences.

Overall, my only real concern with your idea is just the bandwagon effect and engagement. I just don't think we would see enough of the new stuff often enough because players will quickly figure out the best there is and keep doing that one, and then will check out entirely once they get used to which factions tends to win. I could see it working maybe if the seas changed dynamically on their own and then players could vote on how to deal with the new threat. Example, all skeletons become gold skeletons. Do you want your bullets to cause fire damage or your swords? This would be a big change for the game, and I could see the vast majority voting swords so it isn't a really great example, but you get the idea. Something Rare decides to change influences what people choose and next month when the skeletons revert back, players will need to vote on something else by aligning with the faction. This example is pretty game breaking, but you get the idea. Without some external influence, I can't see players aligning differently on their own.

Still, just want to say I like where you head is at. Making the world more dynamic is the right call! I just differ on execution and that's okay!

I think you forgot that PvP Enjoyers also like to fight other PvP Enjoyers in everyday High Seas Adventure.

It's not always Wolves vs Sheep but with popularity in running I find its very rare to see other crews chosing to take fights.

@vaughnsilver

This deals with that as well. By having aligned factions you have reasons to fight others, regardless of "sheep/wolf"

@calicorsaircat I like the diablo-esque doubloon/loot-locked instanced dungeon idea.

Deserves its own thread tbh.

Could make use of some of the TT areas we no longer use, but eventually we'd need more dungeons and challenges, otherwise those loops would get stale once players have grinded all the new rewards.

Idk about making everyone an emissary in high seas & removing the reaper's level 5 ability. I like that we have an opt-in for additional risk, and that risk comes with potentially be spotted and pursued by a reaper.

@theblackbellamy

Not everyone is opted in to the faction system. Only Captained ships can be aligned to a faction, and you can only change a ship alignment once per loop. (More specifically, you can align once, and then you are stuck for that loop).

As I said in the OP though, there are ways to implement this without necessarily creating new factions. You could have a breakdown of the 3 factions relations a bit, and just layer it over them, and just use the existing emissary system. (If we went that route, I'd just use the main 3 trading companies, but I don't think that they are balanced enough to create an interesting competition)