Make Hourglass defense for pve give allegiance

@d3adst1ck said in Make Hourglass defense for pve give allegiance:

@mister-blean said in Make Hourglass defense for pve give allegiance:

@d3adst1ck said in Make Hourglass defense for pve give allegiance:

@mister-blean said in Make Hourglass defense for pve give allegiance:

Which in my opinion, losing should award ZERO allegiance to actually encourage players to actually play the game mode

That would make less people want to bother putting time into it.

Good, it's a PvP Mode. If you don't want to PvP, don't do it.

You need opponents in order to PvP.

Don't bother. The normal PvP player's mindset is 'PvP should gatekeep everything good/cool/wanted in a game. Either play our way or don't get the rewards.'
It's always been this superiority complex:

• You can see it here.
• I saw it in New World when PvPers demanded endgame PvE Dungeons be locked behind grinding PvP.
• I also saw it in Elden Ring, where PvP players demanded single-player invasions be added in, and demanded every boss fight should be blocked by a forced PvP battle.

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PvP players always seem to have this gatekeeping mindset of 'You will play how I demand you play. If you don't, then all the good gear/cosmetics/etc. should be denied to you for not doing what I enjoy!'
They also, as you saw with Mister Blean, demand the rewards be locked behind winning with 0 rewards going to people who lose. Because only PvPers who win deserve anything. The losers just need to 'git gud' or quit.

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Edit: Rofl! Literally, as I posted, Mr Blean said:

I have reformed to believing you should LOSE Allegiance for losing

and

If people want the cosmetics badly enough, they will do whatever it takes to get them.

and

Those who are adamantly against PvP will stay away, as they should.

Thanks for showing off that exact gatekeeping mindset, man! Perfect example! A+!

@mister-blean said in Make Hourglass defense for pve give allegiance:

@guildar9194

Ah how wrong you are my sweet prince. But maybe that's because you're jaded into believing everything should be spoonfed to you.
Earning things feels good. Every person who loss farmed their curse should feel ashamed of themselves. They didn't "earn" anything. They were GIVEN, some of the best cosmetics the game has to offer as a consolation prize. A steaming hot spit in the face of the people who actually earned it.

Keep trying to gatekeep. Everything you say just proves what I said.
You think you can decide who earned their cosmetics based on your personal views, with 0 authority behind your statements.
Perfect examples of the toxic PvPer mindset and gatekeeping. Thanks for that.

@mister-blean said in Make Hourglass defense for pve give allegiance:

@guildar9194

Personal views and FACTS are both present. If someone LOSS FARMED their curse. THEY DID NOT EARN IT. That is a FACT.

And EVERYTHING should be Gatekept. If there is an extremely amazing highly sought after PvE reward, and I'm a PvP only player, I can't get it. Does that mean I should be given said reward for free because I don't want to do PvE? No it doesn't.

If you don't want to PvP, you don't deserve PvP rewards.
If you don't want to PvE, you don't deserve PvE rewards.

If someone LOSS FARMED their curse. THEY DID NOT EARN IT. That is a FACT.

No, that's your OPINION. Given how, you know, the game does not see it that way.
IE: Presenting your opinion as fact & deciding you can decide who 'earns' things.
Gatekeeping.

And EVERYTHING should be Gatekept.

Spare me. Gatekeeping is toxic BS that chases away 'unworthy' players based on the personal views of people who think they have authority that they don't.

If there is an extremely amazing highly sought after PvE reward, and I'm a PvP only player, I can't get it. Does that mean I should be given said reward for free because I don't want to do PvE? No it doesn't.

I am of the opinion that all rewards should have PvP & PvE ways to earn them, to be inclusive of all players in this game. Given how often people say 'It's a PvPvE game'.

If you don't want to PvP, you don't deserve PvP rewards.

Gatekeeping.

If you don't want to PvE, you don't deserve PvE rewards.

Also gatekeeping.

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You don't have the authority to say who 'deserves' anything.

This would kill HG.

They have to be super careful not to make Defending pay more than Diving because the Queue only works when there are Divers.

Defenders cannot be matched to defenders unless they happen to meet organically.

The fewer the divers the more people would figure out they can earn rep by defending and not having to fight at all, which would then spiral and create more defenders.

@mister-blean said in Make Hourglass defense for pve give allegiance:

@guildar9194

You see Gatekeeping as a negative thing. Guess what. Most video games that separate PvP and PvE disagree with you. Not everyone can earn everything in every game.
Hourglass is a separation of PvP from the PvE.

Go play League of Legends or Overwatch, and try to make them give out Top 500/Challenger rewards to bronze players. It'll never happen.
Go play World of Warcraft, and try to make them give out Gladiator mounts to people who don't play Arena. It'll never happen.

The vast majority of games that separate PvP from PvE, all do the same thing. They give unique rewards to the players who participate in those things. Those rewards ARE IN FACT earnable by everyone in the game, should they put in the time and effort to achieve the monumental tasks of earning them, but the vast majority of players don't and never will.

Gatekeeping is not 'You must be x rank to get a reward'. You will notice that I have not said the reward should be free. Only that there should be a PvE equivalent.

Gatekeeping is when people with no authority (like the players) set up a gate & act like a lawfully appointed gate guard to decide who passes.
Examples from here and other games:

• 'You must have x hours in the game/in the PvP to speak on the forum' (From New World)
• 'People who lost in HG did not earn the reward!'
• 'People who lose in PvP should lose points! Git gud or stop trying!'
• 'PvE players should be FORCED to PvP to use endgame dungeons! Because PvP is where the REAL skill is!' (Also from New World)

Being good at pvp is being good at the game. If you play hourglass you'll get good at pvp and your overall skills at the game will improve.
Its perfectly fair that some cosmetics are reserved for players that are willing to challenge themselves rather than mindless grinding.

@rahn82 said in Make Hourglass defense for pve give allegiance:

Being good at pvp is being good at the game. If you play hourglass you'll get good at pvp and your overall skills at the game will improve.
Its perfectly fair that some cosmetics are reserved for players that are willing to challenge themselves rather than mindless grinding.

That's literally what hg is lol, which is a big part of why so many burnt out on it.

Hg has increased pvp skill in certain crews significantly but hg has always been a mess for a variety of reasons.

Being skilled at pvp just means someone is skilled at pvp, it's an adventure game and pvp is just a part of adventure. Hg skill is also different than adventure pvp skill. It's a different fight and fight scenario. I've sank solo gold skellies and I have zero tdm in my arsenal and switched to a controller not that long ago. It's not because I'm some great pvper or great at the game it's because I know adventure fighting well and hg fighting is very different than a random adventure fight.

Hg rewards losing, less reward but a reward. It's a time grind that has lead to some improving in their piratical style, no different than adventure.

I think the points WolfManbush is trying to make, the points he and I have been trying to make in multiple threads, is that you can't gatekeep content from good faith participants, and that we're all here to have fun.

People who participate in hourglass in good faith deserve the curses eventually to. If you disagree on that point, you may as well stop reading because I would agree that only a closed-minded, elitist gatekeeper would feel that way. And while the intent of giving allegiance for a loss is to allow these good faith pirates access to the curses they have earned, it opens a backdoor for bad-faith participants to loss farm. To that I must say, c'est la vie.

We're all here for fun; remember fun? For hourglass to be fun it needs pirates voting for the hourglass, participants. Pirates that may be new to the journey, pirates that would be discouraged from loss after loss after loss if they didn't earn something for their time. The only way skill based match making works, and the reason why it's not working now, is if pirates vote for it, building a normal distribution across skill levels of participation. That way when you vote for HG, you are likely to get someone near your skill level. As it stands now, only elites and swabbies desperate for the curse play now, which is why many matches are more one-sided than a collegiate pre-season football game. They need to be rewarded so their brain drips that little bit of serotonin that makes them vote for hourglass again.

The challenge is, losing generates too little sense of accomplishment for even average players that want the curse, so they quit. Which is why we have the inverse bell-curve of participation: pirates who live and breathe PvP, versus pirates that are just so tired of trying hard to receive nothing that they loss farm or don't even try in a battle. If you really want to improve hourglass, losing needs to be more rewarding. It will bring people back.

@guildar9194

You're completely wrong. I've been a big player of Dark Souls and Elden Ring for four years now. I never heard or watched a video that said PvPers want to force PvE players to play like us. What we want is fair fights and respect in combat. We don't want to force anyone's hand. We want to play against someone who wants to engage in a 1v1 with us and is potentially at the same skill level, as it makes for great fights.

We absolutely don't want to 1v1 someone who doesn't know how PvP works against us. that's not even fun. On the other hand, invading players in Dark Souls and Elden Ring when they play in a group is fair because they're playing multiplayer, kind of 'cheating' as the community says because they're not playing solo. So, it makes perfect sense to invade them. If you think Dark Souls is a coop game, you're mistaken ! there are risks of getting help. It's a solo or multiplayer game. Not coop

@littlematjab said in Make Hourglass defense for pve give allegiance:

@guildar9194

You're completely wrong. I've been a big player of Dark Souls and Elden Ring for four years now. I never heard or watched a video that said PvPers want to force PvE players to play like us. What we want is fair fights and respect in combat. We don't want to force anyone's hand. We want to play against someone who wants to engage in a 1v1 with us and is potentially at the same skill level, as it makes for great fights.

We absolutely don't want to 1v1 someone who doesn't know how PvP works against us. that's not even fun. On the other hand, invading players in Dark Souls and Elden Ring when they play in a group is fair because they're playing multiplayer, kind of 'cheating' as the community says because they're not playing solo. So, it makes perfect sense to invade them. If you think Dark Souls is a coop game, you're mistaken ! there are risks of getting help. It's a solo or multiplayer game. Not coop

You're completely wrong. I've been a big player of Dark Souls and Elden Ring for four years now. I never heard or watched a video that said PvPers want to force PvE players to play like us.

And, of course, you've seen every forum post made by every player to claim I'm wrong?

What we want is fair fights and respect in combat. We don't want to force anyone's hand. We want to play against someone who wants to engage in a 1v1 with us and is potentially at the same skill level, as it makes for great fights.

Allot of healthy PvP wants this. But not every PvP player wants healthy PvP.

We absolutely don't want to 1v1 someone who doesn't know how PvP works against us.

Odd, because I've seen many cry foul that Elden Ring needed solo invasions 'Because that's the danger' and 'Because that's how Dark Souls did it'.
Ignoring that doing so would invade people who do not, cannot, or will not PvP back.
And when people brought up this very point, the reply was 'Either git gud or stop playing. The Souls games (And Elden Ring) are PvP first with a story tacked on! So give us solo invasions! The PvP haters can refund!

On the other hand, invading players in Dark Souls and Elden Ring when they play in a group is fair because they're playing multiplayer, kind of 'cheating' as the community says because they're not playing solo.

Right there is gatekeeping; Claiming co-op players 'are cheating' because they're not playing the way some other random player decides is the 'right way' to play; Solo.

So, it makes perfect sense to invade them.

I agree invasions make sense because co-op can make the game easier. Not because it's cheating because it's not cheating.
But many Dark Souls players went to Elden Ring and demanded solo-player invasions for the sole reason that they wanted to attack anyone whenever they wished.

If you think Dark Souls is a coop game, you're mistaken ! there are risks of getting help. It's a solo or multiplayer game. Not coop

...It has Co-Op. That makes it a co-op game.
It's co-op with danger involved, but it's still co-op.

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You are attempting to twist definitions and impose your own views on what is and is not 'co-op' and what is and is not 'cheating'.
Just like that one guy on the Steam forums who claimed co-op in Elden Ring was "cheating" and anyone who beat the game co-op "Did not deserve the win" and "Should have their steam achievements removed".

@wolfmanbush
It rewards losing because it rewards experience. I low it's called "reputation" in sea of thieves but the mechanic is genetically XP.

@bulla5278 said in Make Hourglass defense for pve give allegiance:

Something that I find interesting. PVE players (altho in a game like this I don't believe you can only choose to be one or the other but for sake of argument we'll go with it) constantly complain about the rewards that are locked behind PVP. However, I don't see PVP players complaining about the rewards locked behind PVE content. You know, stuff like the Gold Curse which requires you do complete each tall tale 5 times!

Literally all. The. Time. Go look back in the forums when hourglass was first released. This literally was the PvP gatekeeper's battle cry not too long ago.

@rahn82 said in Make Hourglass defense for pve give allegiance:

@wolfmanbush
It rewards losing because it rewards experience. I low it's called "reputation" in sea of thieves but the mechanic is genetically XP.

It's also necessary to offer it in a game like sea of thieves.

The mode doesn't have enough interest or activity to offer widespread quality experiences for people which is why it is what it always was going to be. The top got even better at specific gameplay and the rest got even less interested.

HG served sot very well in season 8. It was the beginning of taking hopping pressure off pve.

Time will tell where they go with it but it's not content that serves all nor offers true improvement to all. It's too inconsistent to be promoted as "just keep at it" "it makes people better"

@mister-blean said in Make Hourglass defense for pve give allegiance:

@d3adst1ck

I recant my statement about not getting Allegiance. I have reformed to believing you should LOSE Allegiance for losing, akin to any other competitive mode in games that exist. Lose a game? Lose rank. Win a game? Gain rank. Allegiance should be equivalent to ranking. :)

If people want the cosmetics badly enough, they will do whatever it takes to get them. Which is why the loss farming epidemic happened at all. Bunch of PvE Paullies wanting free PvP Rewards without the work or effort.

Those who are adamantly against PvP will stay away, as they should.
There will always be people who will play the mode. Much like there was in Arena. 2% of a playerbase is still higher than 0%.

I'm sorry to tell you that losing alligence would demotivate NEW players from actually going all the way because when they are pitted against somone who doesn't know what a shower is or an 8 year old in his moms basement that "downloaded special skills" and they both loose the battle and alligence isn't a good way to motivate someone. I know your gonna come back with the "if they want it that bad they will work for it" line but sometimes people get put up against circumstances that are impossible for THEM to win and they still give it their best shot they should receive it. I do agree loss farming should be removed (ie. adding some detection for it) so that people who work for the cosmetic can feel better.

I said it before and I'll say it again.

You should be rewarded when getting your stash up regardless if you get into a battle. Its not the player's fault if the matchmaking is bugged/broken/slow/not-enough-players. But when they flag for PvP they are taking on the risk and should be rewarded for that time. The benefit would increase the pool of people looking to PvP. Imagine diving and coming up to a ship full of loot because the other crew had a bigger incentive to stash loot.

Everytime I dive for PvP its always a ship with no loot. Nobody really PvE's and then flags for PvP...

I was told by the trolls here before. Nah... its fine. Rare is perfect.. Basically.
No, its a half-baked thing to stash loot on your ship. I've gone hours with no battles and have Stash level 5. Fort of Fortunes. Athenas. I even had that and did a Siren Song solo and still no battle.

I flagged and took on the risk and didn't get a reward for it because... the game didn't give me anyone to battle..

@emperor-grunt
Well said

@emperor-grunt
Well said