What is the goal?

So whats the actual goal here?
If it was just about levelling the playing field there would be many more ways to approach it without working against your core playerbase.

A big part of the community, if not the majority,

This is where people get it wrong. It's not even close.

It's the minority of minority feedback that focuses on the stuff that the sot network focus on and get fired up about changes like these.

A lot of what exists now in recent seasons is specifically because these voices are not the majority but they have influence and it was worsening the organic environment for the majority, in past years.

They really aren't working against players, they are just adding QoL for the majority that aren't as vocal as people around the twitch chats and pvp cliques. Many of which not only don't play this game as it is designed but go beyond that into heavy coordination and stacking the deck in their favor. It's long had a negative effect and now they are just trying to improve the experience for people beyond just influencers and people that parrot them, and/or feel as they do.

@offtherec said in What is the goal?:

@wolfmanbush

We obviously dont have actual numbers and statistics on that, thats why i said „big part, if not the majority“

But for the fun, lets take a twitter poll from phuzzy, who is arguably the most biased against double gunners out of all the partners (and therefore his audience is likely to share this view).
Even there the results were only 56/44 pro removal (1600 votes).
So i think its fair to say that the community is very divided about that decision and that indeed a big part does not like the change.

Also what i said, that from my personal, yes subjective, experienece that it would be rare to fight someone in hourglass that was not using quickswitch and that in all my time playing ive never had anyone get salty about me quickswitching or using double gun.

Plus the obvious decrease in player activity since the season 10 update.

Anyways my main point isnt pro/contra quickswitch, its that the whole removal feels kind of pointless and not towards what they intended with it while at the same time it definetely hurt the health of the game overall.

Most players in this game have little to no idea who your favorite and least favorite content creators are as content creators.

The sot network and cliques are so often convinced that this game revolves around their preferences and styles but that has never been the case.

People act like streamer numbers and twitch views and steam plays are the be-all, end-all of activity and that couldn't be further from accurate.

Many largely don't care about SoT player content or hot takes, they do other things and SoT player content hasn't really evolved in years in a lot of popular sot content.

Super experienced player messes with new player
non-competitive fights
loud noises
ridiculous arrogance
witch-hunting
smack talk
constant negativity and calling the game broken
constant drama
sus accusations constantly
donation farming over content

and the social media is pretty similar

People just wanna play the game and have some fun, they largely don't care about the rest. They want QoL and Rare has been improving that starting in season 7 but really picked up in 8 and 9, and 10 hasn't worsened that.

@offtherec said in What is the goal?:

@wolfmanbush

People just wanna play the game and have some fun, they largely don't care about the rest.

Exactly, but those people also dont care if their opponent uses a quickswitch because they likely dont even realize and dont take it that serious.

And that the numbers are tanking anyways just goes to show that a bigger part than expected may have enjoyed this more competetive side of the game and that QoL isnt everything, because as you said thats all they delivered so far this season.

The removal also doesnt guarantee new players not to loose anymore, it also doenst keep people from „bullying“ new crews if they actually want to.

Nothing has changed besides loosing players.

Who are we losing? the people that rarely play as it is and just constantly try to tear down any joy that people have in this game in the social areas? content creators that have benefited for years from what the game and community offered but now want to burn it down on their way out?

Who are we really losing here?

Everyone else seems to be having fun.

@wolfmanbush said in What is the goal?: They want QoL and Rare has been improving that starting in season 7 but really picked up in 8 and 9, and 10 hasn't worsened that.

You do realise that in the last 3 weeks Rare hasn't released one but two statements about the state of the game since season 10 dropped? That isn't improving the game it is making most of the core mechanics of the game unusable and thus the game unplayable.

Eliza!

@theelizabot said in What is the goal?:

@wolfmanbush said in What is the goal?: They want QoL and Rare has been improving that starting in season 7 but really picked up in 8 and 9, and 10 hasn't worsened that.

You do realise that in the last 3 weeks Rare hasn't released one but two statements about the state of the game since season 10 dropped? That isn't improving the game it is making most of the core mechanics of the game unusable and thus the game unplayable.

Eliza!

Taking feedback and implementing more transparency and communication as some players asked for isn't acknowledging a broken game. It's acknowledging issues as players have asked for.

There are always issues and they are always working on issues.

I and many others play this game all the time, including people that are regularly calling it broken. As the game is designed it is far from broken in season 10. I know because I have played their game as designed for a long long time.

I also know that there have been performance improvements since season 10 was released. There is always content here or there that is struggling, I and others have worked around it for years, while still playing the game.

@offtherec said in What is the goal?:

@wolfmanbush

Who are we losing? the people that rarely play as it is and just constantly try to tear down any joy that people have in this game in the social areas? content creators that have benefited for years from what the game and community offered but now want to burn it down on their way out?

Who are we really losing here?

Everyone else seems to be having fun.

I dont know, i dont feel like most good players are that toxic.
Rather the opposite, when i was new i would get spawncamped but instead of raging i asked them how to get better and they would give me advice.
Those were some of my favourite „social“ moments in this game and i prefer that over just alliancing with everyone out of fear and calling it being social and making friends.

Your interactions in this game depend a lot on your personal approach to things, as youve said yourself in other posts, your own attitude in this game defines your whole experience.

And im with you about streamers and content creators that they will ragebait excessively, simply for entertainment.
But most people dont play like that, its as you said just that small part of creators.

I just feel like there could be a balance in between those who just want to enjoy the game casually and those who want to compete more.

Because in my experience and opinion, that mix is what makes the game interesting and is what creates all these possibilities of different social situations and kinds of encounters.

If people appreciated what this experience has offered us through action and treatment of others, if people went into sessions optimistic about adventure rather than looking to complain about the game or people, if people offered constructive and fair feedback rather than being overly critical as a social game, if people made the best out of their time together and around others..

a lot of the real issues of SoT would drift away

The game still has super skilled players doing super skilled things on a daily basis, that style hasn't gone anywhere and neither has the opportunity.

It's always been unintended. It sucks to run into for most players.

The goal is fixing those 2 things. Nothing more complicated than that.

@offtherec A person good at combat will be able to adapt and not have to cling to something that has been removed.

@offtherec said in What is the goal?:

So all the people that were still playing and grinding in the very end of s9, with no new content added since months, suddenly decided that now the game is too boring even though there is sth „new“ to progress?
It might have been the last straw for some, but assuming that the majority quit because they didnt like guilds rather than a core mechanic being removed, i dont know.

Numbers are largely just relevant for Rare and they have the internal and confidential data

The game could have a bajillion people lazybearding in clothing shops and that doesn't mean the game is in a healthy state.

Varied interest is far more common post season-8 than it was for a long time while under the rule of the mass hopping meta before that

The game isn't in a poor state, it's been through far worse. People just listen to people they like around the community and parrot what they hear, not exclusive to SoT at all but that's just an effect of influence and popularity and generally how negative cycles exist.

I recommend this genuinely because I think you are a genuine person, don't buy into all the social media negativity stuff about the game, it'll be alright. They have been implementing long term content and goals, even if the content doesn't work out that way it still shows that they are still here for the long haul.

Outside of the social areas it's smooth sailing, even with issues. Lots of people still out there, I see them all the time while playing.

People should take breaks if they need them, they should play other games if they want to, it's all good. People come on back when they are ready.

It's gonna work out for season 10 and beyond, just gotta not let the pessimism take control of your outlook.

@offtherec said in What is the goal?:

@wolfmanbush

The game isn't in a poor state, it's been through far worse. People just listen to people they like around the community and parrot what they hear, not exclusive to SoT at all but that's just an effect of influence and popularity and generally how negative cycles exist.

I dislike the „sot is dead“ mentality just as much as you do.
If i thought that way i would not be putting the effort in to write all this.

But i honestly believe the current combat changes have done nothing but make the game feel worse and hope there is a better way to implement it.

Working towards that is only possible if the discussion doesnt always end at „youre an exploiter“ vs. „youre a pve lord“.

There are things I don't like about the game, there are things that I don't think are good for the environment, there are decisions and changes I don't agree with

but for me it's not sustainable to live or play in a way that lets that consume me,

I play just about every day and every day before I start a session I put myself in the mindset that none of it outweighs what I enjoy, none of it justifies me starting a session with a negative view about the game or the community, none of it justifies me discouraging others or taking frustrations out on people.

Like any routine it just becomes a part of the experience.

This experience is such a higher quality experience for newer players and casual players and still has opportunity for those of us that are willing to adapt and make the best out of it.

I refuse to conform to the negativity when I know better. I know it'll bring me down, I know it'll bring others down, and I know it's not the truth, it's an obstacle, not the truth.

The truth is that many still enjoy it here, they still have many accomplishments and experiences ahead of them with more opportunity than in the past. I see it as I have a choice, stay quiet, join the crowd, or support what I know to be true.

I can tell that you care about this game. I can tell you give things a lot of thought, you have what it takes to face the changes of this game with optimism, to challenge the pessimism by uplifting those around you about this experience.

Sometimes people are just looking for some words to get 'em through. Through changes, through difficulty, through prolonged negativity. I think you'd be good at it.

@offtherec Actually I did read, after reading it all that is the conclusion that i came to.

@offtherec I already told you I read it... saying it again does not change my answer.. I have said what i came to say. You missed how I got there which is not my problem. Notifications are now off for this so any further messages I will not be reading. Have a great day!

@offtherec said in What is the goal?:

@starbrightnight

„They went through with it and thats fine, its their decision which mechanics they want in game and which not

The bigger problem for me, and many others, is how its been done.“

This isn't to dismiss it because I've definitely been there a few times but many have been through it if we've been around a few+ years.

It doesn't often become such a public thing because people that are in the middle tend to make less noise, they just move on to other games or go more casual and take longer breaks, etc.

A lot of people and a lot of styles have had to go through changes in the game. Grind changes, significance changes, cheesing becoming so extreme, nerfs, etc etc

I've had to adapt dozens of times based on changes. Sometimes I'm hanging on by a shrouded ghost and sometimes I'm feeling pretty darn content with where things are (for my personal style)

The gameplay changes, the environment changes, a lot of things change. I think the way to get through that is to identify what keeps us here outside of just gameplay. Purpose beyond piracy, beyond whatever we don't like or don't agree with.

Imo there is much more to this experience than just clicking buttons and pressing keys, more than accuracy and performance. Someday this will end, but that isn't today and it's probably not tomorrow. We still have some time to enjoy this, this game is an experience that we will miss.

That's how I get myself back in the game whenever I'm at a point that some are going through now.

@mferr11 said in What is the goal?:

@wolfmanbush said in What is the goal?:

The game isn't in a poor state

Normally I don't mind that you seem pretty dismissive of SoT's issues, but to completely deny the current state of the game, even after the devs themselves have made 2 separate posts discussing the current issues with the game is pretty absurd.

It's gonna work out for season 10 and beyond, just gotta not let the pessimism take control of your outlook.

I also don't like the idea that you can't be critical of a game you like. It's not pessimism to notice actual flaws and issues with a game, that's just the reality. Just take a break should be said to people who are experiencing burnout, not people with legitimate, fair issues with the game.

The posts are what people asked for. Over and over there is feedback that some want them to talk more about the issues and lay out what they are doing to work on them

So when they do that people go "gotcha" "game is this and game is that"

The dying game thing, the broken game thing, the dwindling activity thing, the Rare this and Rare that stuff, all is unproductive exaggeration.

There have been times in this game where data was corrupting. Times where literally no skelly ships and megs spawned, times where fleets and other world events didn't spawn. Ships/players per server have bounced around for years at this point. Hit-reg has been around for years, all sorts of bugs and glitches have been around for years.

The only thing that is different is that they are doing what was asked of them. That's not some sign that it's significantly worse, it's just acknowledgment of the struggle. They were optimistic about performance heading into season 10 and it didn't work out as planned, no different than other seasons in other ways.

I'm not being dismissive, there are many that feel as I do with similar experiences, they just don't regularly post about it.

This is a game where people play it for 8-10 hours a day (mostly successfully) while calling it broken the entire time. It's not being dismissive to address that as being an exaggeration.

People have been doing wild guild grinds, playing HG, random adventure, fotd stacking and everything between. People have been having an alright time playing as they typically play. I've been playing the entire time. It's not that bad out there.

@offtherec said in What is the goal?:

@wolfmanbush

A lot of people and a lot of styles have had to go through changes in the game. Grind changes, significance changes, cheesing becoming so extreme, nerfs, etc etc

I've had to adapt dozens of times based on changes.

Definetely true.
I also dont have a problem with them changing things in general.

But before they implemented it into retail, it was impossible to give feedback on it as you would either breach nda or your posts would get deleted on the official forums.
Now that it is in retail and people can finally openly talk about why its a bad change and how you could improve it these people are silenced because „the decision is done“ or get told things like „just adapt“ what completely misses the point of trying to give actual feedback to improve a broken fix.

Which is the problem we have now, we ended up with a change that is not at all working the way it should.

Why is it not working?

1. it is still possible to quickswap because thats just how animations work, once you start the next one the last one stops.
2. the whole idea of levelling the playing field is not really adressed with it
3. gunplay has become inconsistent and unreliable, your gun might even not pull out at all
4. you get punished for moving/trying to sprint mid combat, which is what keeps you alive
5. switching guns and reloading causes even more micro stutters and rubberbanding than before

Even many swordusers and people who dont use quickswitch agree that the combat feels worse now after the change.

In my opinion there is a difference in giving criticisim and completely denying change and just demanding them to revert everything.

this is the meat of potatoes of constructive criticism imo

this issue is when people implement "dying game" "majority" when clearly it's a minority of feedback type of narratives into their criticism.

Any time they make any serious change and it effects people it is valid that people get frustrated about it and their feedback is valid.

When they closed arena they decided how to close it up and people just had to work around it.

When they decided to get rid of overview stats that a lot of the long time players enjoyed they just got rid of them and never really said anything about it and threw down Captaincy with a "have fun" doing it again.

They've made quite a few decisions where they did it and feedback really wasn't a thing (after they made a decision), they made the call and we had to figure it out. Some stuff never even ended up in the patch notes.

They might continue to work on it and it might improve it for some but there are a lot of people in the game with a variety of different opinions on these changes.

I enjoyed reading your posts and thoughts here so this isn't just about you specifically but the "dying game" and "core player base disagrees" stuff doesn't really work in criticism for these types of changes. I do understand the frustration though.