Excessive Grinds are NOT Good Design

  • I'm not sure what happened to SoT, some internal culture change at Rare I suppose?

    When I started at the end of S6 one thing I noticed was the lack of repeating content, like the endless Dailies in other games that I always hated and the lack of excessive grinds.

    Sure there was Pirate Legend, however it was not a bad grind because progress was smooth and sure and there were rewards along the way. Reaching Pirate Legend felt doable.

    Then came S8 and Hourglass. Now there was a really excessive grind, a grind so long, for such little rewards and so little incremental content that it was immediately to many a "why bother" feature.

    If a grind takes too long and has to little rewards it is a deterrent to play.

    But I was like, ok, the rewards don't really appeal to me so who cares. I bought spinal for $4.99 which is a better skeleton than the reward for weeks of grinding and that was that. Got my ship to milestone 60 because I liked the ship cosmetics and walked away.

    I was really looking forward to guilds. Guilds are the social center of most online games and I was really hoping to find a guild and spend less time solo, more time sailing on galleons and brigantines. I thought I might do some Athena content which I had not done solo.

    But guilds are not implemented as a social center.

    There is no guild chat. Recruiting is cumbersome at best. The guild emissary means rather than have guilds doing Athena, or other Factions, guilds are doing Guild Emissary which is not content like the factions, it is just a another grind without a story.

    Worse the guild reputation system, with its grind to 1000 means that guilds are not playing the game, enjoying game content, they are grinding, doing whatever is the fastest grind. A grind with more lack luster rewards.

    All in all not the social system that could have made joining with others fun, instead just another pointless, endless grind.

    What has happened at Rare that suddenly endless grind is seen as a good thing? Was it a new hire on the design team? Maybe pressure from Seattle? I don't know, I do know that two systems that could have been great, Hourglass and Guilds, are now "why bother" systems.

    And worse, I know that more of the same foolishness is coming.

    I don't want to bad mouth any employee, but someone at Rare is wrong, just plain wrong, grinding is not fun, it is not good design, it is a reason to not play, a discouragement.

    /rant

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  • It's still early and they have a lot going on with the server performance issues so I'm gonna remain optimistic for now.

    It does lose momentum after the first month but it can still be something down the road that serves everyone.

    If it ever does get to the point of becoming what I consider supportive of players without real connections I'll make a guild to support the content/changes.

    Currently I can't support the design and some of the activity that is going on in the community with guilds on the top but it might end up becoming something I see as a positive for the environment in the future.

    If it doesn't change, it is what it is, people can still throw another name on their boat if they want, and hopefully still find ways to work it out for themselves.

  • Sorta agree. Most grinds are worth the trouble, like the gold curse because nobody will have it unless they do a lot of repeats. But it was still easy to gain

    Even the curse from the shrines was a grind but still worth the trouble.

    Hourglass is a grind and fine but it isn’t for everyone. Mainly because of the so called cheats and if you lose it will take longer. If you lose every match you’re gonna be late and it drags.

    Compare to the first curses and hourglass. It’s not equal enough

    Now with guilds. If you don’t join an already large guild you’re looking at yet another long grind. It’s not equal. Some make guilds with the small group of friends. 10+. While everyone else is joining streamer guilds who already unlocked emissary after two days and reached the requirements for the outfits.

  • I knew we were in trouble when the leader-boards came with cosmetics to force you to play when you didn't want to in order to stay current.

    I have been against them since the idea was brought up.

    Seems Guilds are falling the same way. More about the grind and the numbers rather then the socialness.

  • The guild I'm in currently consists of 5 members. Maybe I'm way off base, but I like to imagine this is fairly close to the average player's guild size plus or minus a player or two. However, because playing together is more important to us than progressing the guild, we always sail together when we are online. (Which, at its core, is weird design to me - we want you to be social but not too social. You progress faster playing apart). This week we gained one guild level. This was just doing what we normally do organically and not actively trying to progress the guild. One level. If my math is correct, to get all the guild commendations (approx. 900-1000 levels considering distinctions, right?) at this rate it will take us about 20 years. About 15 years longer than the devs original "10 year plan" for the game.

    I'm not necessarily complaining. I'm very happy to continue sailing with my crew and progressing as we progress. We don't need to get to level 1000. But to the OPs point, when I consider that organic play would take us 18 to 20 years to get the commendations, it's fully a detrement to play rather than an incentive.

    I don't mind the grind in this game. I'm a mid year one, OG pirate legend (back when we HAD to turn in animals) and have unlocked almost every commendation. So I understand the grind. However, saying that, for the "average crew" no grind should be designed to take longer than the self-stated vision/lifespan of the game itself.

    I know we could level up faster using the current HG meta, but that's not my point. I'm pro "this should take a bit of time for the average crew". I'm anti "this should take 20 years for the average crew" who just want to play the game organically and enjoy each other's company while doing it.

    Just my thoughts. Happy sailing!

  • I am rather disappointed with guilds progression system, PVP should not be the way to go.. We did a lot of FOTDs and other activity during last few days, however, we have also did a few dives, perhaps 10-15 wins? With the PVE part, we got our reaper emissary ledger to 4million. (Finished season pass 1-100)

    We are level 5 for the guild. So earning around 3million of gold barely gets you to level 3 for guild if that at all, while PVP seems the way to go. Please do not reduce the hg gains, but a massive boost is needed for the PVE side, we really played a lot and should have the emissary flag already. The game should not be designed around exploiters or some streamers with big communities.

    So although guilds are quite exciting as an idea, the grind will kill this feeling soon as it feels like you get same guild XP as if you farmed losses on HG, actually a lot slower than that...Terrible...

    You know that after grinding and grinding and grinding (0 new content, not even recycled new voyages for such a long wait) you will reach that Level 15 with guilds...then you will get the flag...and then you will realize nothing changes...The excitement of gaining it will wear off after few sessions as you hit level 20 mark and those unlocks are nothing special.

    I mean its cool to be united under one flag, it's cool to create your own one, its fun to have some progress recorded as a vet (guild xp), but at the end of day...it's just better than nothing. This is from my personal perspective. So hoping that in next few months we will see the story line developing and some new content other than siren skull.

  • I 100% want it to be more of a social thing. @Foambreaker you should probably repeat this post over on the Guild FAQ and maybe somebody at Rare will respond. Plus, there's pretty much a garentee that we will have some mid-season updates to the way the system works. Don't lose hope.

  • Playing Solo is no longer a viable way to play if you want to unlock the newer commendations and cosmetics. I play solo about 99% of the time because my crew gave up on the game due to the repetitive nature of the game and lack of new and exciting things to do.

    Guilds are a prime example of solo play being discouraged. For years I played this game and it's not until Season 9/10 that I feel that you are punished for playing solo. I know that it's my choice to play solo and I accept that everything is going to be more difficult. However, it used to feel like all cosmetics and commendations were still in reach by playing solo. The game no longer feels this way. It's one tedious grind after gring after grind unfortunately.

  • @tangus-00 sagte in Excessive Grinds are NOT Good Design:

    The guild I'm in currently consists of 5 members. Maybe I'm way off base, but I like to imagine this is fairly close to the average player's guild size plus or minus a player or two. However, because playing together is more important to us than progressing the guild, we always sail together when we are online. (Which, at its core, is weird design to me - we want you to be social but not too social. You progress faster playing apart). This week we gained one guild level. This was just doing what we normally do organically and not actively trying to progress the guild. One level. If my math is correct, to get all the guild commendations (approx. 900-1000 levels considering distinctions, right?) at this rate it will take us about 20 years. About 15 years longer than the devs original "10 year plan" for the game.

    I'm not necessarily complaining. I'm very happy to continue sailing with my crew and progressing as we progress. We don't need to get to level 1000. But to the OPs point, when I consider that organic play would take us 18 to 20 years to get the commendations, it's fully a detrement to play rather than an incentive.

    I don't mind the grind in this game. I'm a mid year one, OG pirate legend (back when we HAD to turn in animals) and have unlocked almost every commendation. So I understand the grind. However, saying that, for the "average crew" no grind should be designed to take longer than the self-stated vision/lifespan of the game itself.

    I know we could level up faster using the current HG meta, but that's not my point. I'm pro "this should take a bit of time for the average crew". I'm anti "this should take 20 years for the average crew" who just want to play the game organically and enjoy each other's company while doing it.

    Just my thoughts. Happy sailing!

    My Guild is also 5 players. I presume that is more than common, because not everyone has 5+ friends who play this game on a regular basis :)
    The Guild XP you get from normal Sot PvE actions and voyages has to be higher clearly. I have no doubt Rare has the same opinion and hope they will do some changes after the server issues are solved.

  • @paulski93 I **** you not, bro. If you play exclusively hourglass and you are decent at it, you will make a lot more guild reputation than probably an active 24 player PVE guild...

    I mean it's fine if those guilds are just there to change hourglass or be mainly PVP related, but they were always advertised as...well you know..Guilds...Social hub with common goal...If this is catered towards PVP they should have been called Clans imo.

  • @paulski93 said in Excessive Grinds are NOT Good Design:

    Playing Solo is no longer a viable way to play if you want to unlock the newer commendations and cosmetics. I play solo about 99% of the time because my crew gave up on the game due to the repetitive nature of the game and lack of new and exciting things to do.

    Guilds are a prime example of solo play being discouraged. For years I played this game and it's not until Season 9/10 that I feel that you are punished for playing solo. I know that it's my choice to play solo and I accept that everything is going to be more difficult. However, it used to feel like all cosmetics and commendations were still in reach by playing solo. The game no longer feels this way. It's one tedious grind after gring after grind unfortunately.

    I'm not sure why you would start feeling that way in season 9? Imo season 9 was not only a great season for solo players it overall was the best season SoT has had for players that just aren't at the top. It's really the first time they've had a healthy organic risk/reward environment, all things considered.

    Personally I think guilds are designed in a way that implements some of the worst parts of twitch chats and alliance servers into the organic environment and I don't really know why.

    At least when people join into alliance servers they are also getting all the mass rewards to get treated like they are a production employee.

    This is crumbs for mass farming based off nothing other than people associating status with community.

    Maybe this is like most other content and it really never gets revisited, then it's whatever, but this design is game changing (I wouldn't consider it for the better) if it is the beginning of how they want things in the future, for the organic environment.

    Personally I'm hoping it's a one-off but I dunno. As a solo it's concerning to me but not for solos specifically, more for the majority of players that aren't a part of these social media circles and aren't here for the status stuff.

  • Eccessive grind Is not good design i agree with that. But why there peoples complaining about being solo in a SOCIAL game and claiming that they cant play with Friends because they left sot? Is not hard starting open crew to create new friendships;why this doesnt seems possible?

  • @tossico94 said in Excessive Grinds are NOT Good Design:

    Eccessive grind Is not good design i agree with that. But why there peoples complaining about being solo in a SOCIAL game and claiming that they cant play with Friends because they left sot? Is not hard starting open crew to create new friendships;why this doesnt seems possible?

    Getting along is a skill but compatibility is more luck than anything else.

    Some people are fortunate and they find it early on and it lasts and some gotta go through quite a journey of things not working out and over time that chips away at motivation and optimism.

    Solo/sloop has won out multiple times over the years to be included, specifically because so many wanna play that way/have that option.

    It never has to really be one or the other, solo can be incorporated quite well most of the time.

    Rare has actually done a tremendous job with keeping solo around imo. In the social spaces people get frustrated but for years I've had the opportunity to go out there on a sloop as a solo and do whatever I wanted to do, that freedom and fluidity of solo adventure in a shared environment is awesome in this game.

    Even with the guild design a solo can still make the best out of it imo.

  • @tossico94 said in Excessive Grinds are NOT Good Design:

    Eccessive grind Is not good design i agree with that. But why there peoples complaining about being solo in a SOCIAL game and claiming that they cant play with Friends because they left sot? Is not hard starting open crew to create new friendships;why this doesnt seems possible?

    Open Crew? Really?

    /facepalm

  • My one other problem with guilds...I shall shape it in a form of a question:

    How many times have you logged into Sea of Thieves and launched a brig and galleon hoping someone would join? What if only 2 can join and you loaded a galleon....

    So guilds are a social option with no communication. I have invited 2 or 3 people to the guild via random interactions in game, they are not automatically in my friends list. So the only way we can 'interact', I can probably pay for repairs if they use my ship?

    Again, good idea, not polished, a bit half baked atm.

  • @zig-zag-ltu That is where a guild level chat would have helped.

  • @foambreaker Well some kind of chat, that records history would be useful. Some live chat where messages disappear would not (imo).

    Would make a lot of sense to have something like this:

    ''Friday 8pm FOTD, who is in''

    ''Week of Hourglass, please try to dedicate sometime to do some diving''

    ''SeaCucumber942 is our new Pirate of the Month''

    etc etc
    etc etc...

  • Nothing has changed. Day 1 player here. Many players, especially newer players, don't necessarily take a long term view towards some content.

    Some additions to the game are meant to be a specific type of grind. Take fort of the damned. There are commendations for doing it 50 times. Rare clearly rewards people for grinding it. They ugh even this kind of content, I suggest, is meant to be one of many activities that are in a mix of things for players to do. Just flopping down and doing 50 fotd runs in a row in three days isn't healthy gameplay for anyone.

    Emmisaries were also a "something you do" feature. You can raise an emmisary to maximize rep and profit for any faction. And specific. And trackable. And specifically steered your session. It wouldn't make sense to rase a merchant emmisary then do a ton of souls voyages.

    Then there are "foundation" additions (a word used by Mr. Chapman in various podcasts.) These aren't meant to be things you "do" like fotd, but are things that are simply "there" and are meant to survive in the game for years, not weeks.

    The Reaper faction is this. No new voyages. No new activity. It's just something there, in the background. You can sell there without being an emmisary. Sure you can raise an emmisary. But I covered that above.

    Captaincy is definitely this. You don't "do" a captaincy run. You just buy and sail a ship. And do the things you'd do without a captained ship. People who try to "do" captaincy look at trinkets and complain that it "forces" them to do the same things they've been doing. No. Their frustration is from a place of trying to "do" foundational content that isn't intended to be done. It is intended to be an additional layer that simply exists while you go about your day.

    Guilds are this too. Yes, you can raise a guild emmisary. But there will be times when raising a GH emmisary in a guild ship is still more efficient for that goal. Maybe you get someone new to your guild who isn't a pirate legend. Maximizing their specific faction rep is more preferable.

    I'm not saying that foundation features don't have rewards. Clearly they do. Captaincy has trinkets. Guilds have stuff and things. But they aren't meant to be something you do overnight and move on to the next shiny. They are more fundamental systems that track progress while you do other more seasonal things. Raid a chest of fortune? Earn guild rep. Succeed at the soon-released siren chest activity? Earn guild (and captaincy milestone) rep. Do whatever season 11, 12, or 83 brings? Earn guild and captaincy milestone rep.

    Don't grind guilds!!! It isn't intended to be a grind activity. It isn't something you are meant to reach level 1,000 by the end of the season. It is meant to last YEARS for most people. And it's also meant to be social. You should be able to play just once a week. And when you log in, you see what others in your guild were up to in the week you were gone. And you see your guild rep went up two levels.

    If you want to be a solo guild... That's a you choice. Guilds arent for meant for solo membership, full stop.

    Historically I've read solo sloop tales on here that they suffer from anxiety, or don't have friends that can play when they can, or have plenty of reasons why they solo sloop. And that's all legit. A guild could have 24 members who only solo sloop and they'd still level up pretty darn fast. And still enjoy that experience of logging in and browsing what their 23 Solo sloop brethren got up to. I AM NOT SAYING that this feature excludes solo players. I am saying that solo GUILDS are missing the entire point of the feature.

    Now for a couple of small criticisms. Because I am not one to just praise rare no matter what.

    Hourglass is something you "do." And yes, it feels like an excessive grind for how it currently works. That feels like a miss. I don't think it's because of a culture change st Rare though. They clearly wanted matchmaking to be better. I really think they thought that their Elo and cross stamp stuff would maintain players. The grind is because people aren't winning 50% of their matches. And long matches that end in a loss makes the grind FEEL worse. I don't have a good fix. Matchmaking needs to be better. Upping the rep for losing will just mean more loss farmers. Streaks seem to fundamentally contradict how skill bard matchmaking would work. If it's working, you'd roughly win, then lose, then win, then lose never building a streak. And clearly they didn't anticipate the level of cheating that hourglass brought to the fore. So it is a feature that "missed" for reasons far beyiund "culture" but I hope to can be salvaged.

    Guild discovery is currently a gap. I won't call it a miss... Yet. But it is a gap. I've defended rare on open crew matchmaking. Don't reinvent the wheel. With a sandbox game, making a complex system if selecting and matching activities doesn't make sense. Xbox LFG does this fine. Discord does this fine. It's there for people to find each other while they are wanting to play. It's ephemeral.

    Finding a guild is different. LFG isn't the right tool. Guilds are persistent and you want a tool that people can browse and find a guild that meets their "style"... Whatever that is. With only 24 slots to a guild, generic tools like discord are too chaotic. There does need to be a purpose built tool for this.

    Dobi think they needed to hold up the entire feature to write such a tool? Nah. Do I hope that such a tool is in the works? Hells yes. Sox it's a shortcoming, but not (yet) a total whiff. If they ignore the need, it can become one.

    That's it. That's my TED talk. I wrote it on my phone so forgive all typosx autocorrects, and mangledwordsthatdontmakesense.

  • @strangeness said in Excessive Grinds are NOT Good Design:

    Guilds are this too. Yes, you can raise a guild emmisary. But there will be times when raising a GH emmisary in a guild ship is still more efficient for that goal. Maybe you get someone new to your guild who isn't a pirate legend. Maximizing their specific faction rep is more preferable.

    I'm not saying that foundation features don't have rewards. Clearly they do. Captaincy has trinkets. Guilds have stuff and things. But they aren't meant to be something you do overnight and move on to the next shiny. They are more fundamental systems that track progress while you do other more seasonal things. Raid a chest of fortune? Earn guild rep. Succeed at the soon-released siren chest activity? Earn guild (and captaincy milestone) rep. Do whatever season 11, 12, or 83 brings? Earn guild and captaincy milestone rep.

    Don't grind guilds!!! It isn't intended to be a grind activity. It isn't something you are meant to reach level 1,000 by the end of the season. It is meant to last YEARS for most people. And it's also meant to be social. You should be able to play just once a week. And when you log in, you see what others in your guild were up to in the week you were gone. And you see your guild rep went up two levels.

    There wouldnt be any problems with foundational features if they didn't have rewards attached to them.

    Guilds would have been perfectly fine without leaderboards, cosmetics and leveling. The social features are actually quite nice and without the competition aspect created by the leaderboard, probably could have had a much higher member cap which would have made them even more useful.

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  • I appreciate the long term goals put in the game, stretch out that content as much as you want I'll chase it. And don't be scared to throw in some crumbs in the desolate wasteland of the grinds like the lvl 201-999 of the hourglass.

  • I agree with you, Foambreaker. For example, I gave up hourglass a long time ago saying exactly that: "Why bother?"
    I lost my will to continue my road to level 100 a long time ago because I find it awful to lose after giving everything I got and still get breadcumbs of allegiance that could be earned faster by loss farming.
    After completing the shores of gold, in order to get the gold curse I would need to complete each tall tale 4 more times. I understand repeating the tall tales to check on missing details, seek the journals or replay a specific part of this storyline that a player really liked. But repeating it because the game says so makes it feel dull and grindy.
    Completed the Fort of the Damned? Great, now do it 49 more times.
    You caught the rarest fish in Sea of Thieves? Now do it even more times and do it on a captained ship.
    Completed a legend of the veil by finishing all 3 modules and survived a fight for loot from your summoned world event? Now do it 99 more times for the sword.

    The game is getting filled with grinds and repetition.
    Personally I dislike it because I think that's artificial replayability, it is articial player retention.
    I could replay A Pirates's Life tall tale number three because I enjoy watching the town, despite already getting all commendations. I think that's organic replayability because I actively seek to experience it again.
    But when the game asks me to repeat something because of a little carrot on the stick and the grind is awfully long I simply give up and lose interest.

    Is a day full of losses after difficult long fights in hourglass worth half a level? And still many more levels to go before I can get one of the curses? I don't think so. I gave up on that grind. After I realized I was doing something I don't enjoy and wasn't even getting close I moved on and played other games.

  • It is normal that in a guild of 5 people it takes longer to progress than in a guild with the maximum number of players. And having more experience for your guild in pvp than in pve seems correct to me given the difficulty. Now it's also up to you to recruit members in one way or another in order to develop your guild. the idea of ​​a guild chat is good, and I will also add a more detailed history of things done by guild members with money/xp etc.
    Regarding the excessive grind, at the guild level I find it rather normal in being together it is a thing in the long term even if the generation of now wishes to have all of them straight away. On the Hg side on the other hand it's a grind without any real goal from level 200 to 1000 and here I agree with you, it's not normal that there are no rewards...

  • @foambreaker the guild system has issues hourglass super boosts guilds but if you turn in like 3 million worth of loot you barely see progress.

    Then the option to be in three guilds hurt this as well. Most online games that use guild systems let you be apart of one not 3. Allowing players to be Parr of three guilds is counter productive to how a guild system should be.

  • @goutfoot-stiner It's even more than that.

    The way the login sequence works if your guild is not using 3rd party system like Discord it is hard to even crew ships.

    For example, let's say I sign on and a guild galleon is currently playing. I can choose to join them but it will only work if they choose Guild Crew when logging in AND they are sailing short handed.

    If the crew is full, no go.
    If they took out a guild galleon but selected Closed Crew, no go.
    If they took out a Guild Galleon but selected Open Crew, the crew is likely to be full, again no go.

    Rather than spend all this time, making the season so late, on a grind, they should have focused more on how guilds form crews.

    Bottom line is even if you join a guild that just wants to have fun, ignoring the grind, it is hard to crew up a galleon without using something like Discord.

  • @foambreaker ah see we use xbox only and.were all friends on.xbox this.makes it easy to communicate and organize this stuff.

    Those issues are pretty non existent in the xbox world of sea of thieves

  • @foambreaker a dit dans Excessive Grinds are NOT Good Design :

    I'm not sure what happened to SoT, some internal culture change at Rare I suppose?

    When I started at the end of S6 one thing I noticed was the lack of repeating content, like the endless Dailies in other games that I always hated and the lack of excessive grinds.

    Sure there was Pirate Legend, however it was not a bad grind because progress was smooth and sure and there were rewards along the way. Reaching Pirate Legend felt doable.

    Then came S8 and Hourglass. Now there was a really excessive grind, a grind so long, for such little rewards and so little incremental content that it was immediately to many a "why bother" feature.

    If a grind takes too long and has to little rewards it is a deterrent to play.

    But I was like, ok, the rewards don't really appeal to me so who cares. I bought spinal for $4.99 which is a better skeleton than the reward for weeks of grinding and that was that. Got my ship to milestone 60 because I liked the ship cosmetics and walked away.

    I was really looking forward to guilds. Guilds are the social center of most online games and I was really hoping to find a guild and spend less time solo, more time sailing on galleons and brigantines. I thought I might do some Athena content which I had not done solo.

    But guilds are not implemented as a social center.

    There is no guild chat. Recruiting is cumbersome at best. The guild emissary means rather than have guilds doing Athena, or other Factions, guilds are doing Guild Emissary which is not content like the factions, it is just a another grind without a story.

    Worse the guild reputation system, with its grind to 1000 means that guilds are not playing the game, enjoying game content, they are grinding, doing whatever is the fastest grind. A grind with more lack luster rewards.

    All in all not the social system that could have made joining with others fun, instead just another pointless, endless grind.

    What has happened at Rare that suddenly endless grind is seen as a good thing? Was it a new hire on the design team? Maybe pressure from Seattle? I don't know, I do know that two systems that could have been great, Hourglass and Guilds, are now "why bother" systems.

    And worse, I know that more of the same foolishness is coming.

    I don't want to bad mouth any employee, but someone at Rare is wrong, just plain wrong, grinding is not fun, it is not good design, it is a reason to not play, a discouragement.

    /rant

    As far as guilds are concerned, I'd rather wait until 2024 to give a definitive opinion.
    However, I can only agree with you on several points:

    • rewards. Like the HG, they're not legion. Knowing that the maximum guild level is 1000, I suppose that many other rewards will follow, but it's true that to date it's rather poor.
    • The social system. Coming from an anti-social person like me, this may come as a surprise, as I like to sail solo, but I think that a guild chat system would be complicated by the language barrier. Of course, in some guilds, all players probably speak the same language, but I don't think that's the case for all guilds.

    However, I don't agree that it's still a grind system like the captaincy. On the other hand, I think I've identified a very big problem with the guild emissary. From the moment we're asked (if we wish) to go up to level 1000, it's obvious that the majority of guilds with lvl 15 will only sail under the banner and flag of their guild. This will undoubtedly mean that many of them will have amnesia about the fact that there are other emissaries and rewards at the end of each month/season for each guild.

    As far as guilds are concerned, I'd rather wait until 2024 to give a definitive opinion.
    However, I can only agree with you on several points:

    • rewards. Like the HG, they're not legion. Knowing that the maximum guild level is 1000, I suppose that many other rewards will follow, but it's true that to date it's rather poor.
    • The social system. Coming from an anti-social person like me, this may come as a surprise, as I like to sail solo, but I think that a guild chat system would be complicated by the language barrier. Of course, in some guilds, all players probably speak the same language, but I don't think that's the case for all guilds.

    However, I don't agree that it's still a grind system like the captaincy. On the other hand, I think I've identified a very big problem with the guild emissary. From the moment we are asked (if we wish) to go up to level 1000, it is obvious that the majority of guilds with lvl 15 will only sail under the banner and flag of their guild.This will undoubtedly result in many of them losing sight of the fact that there are other emissaries and rewards at the end of each month/season for each guild.

    That's why, among other things, I'm waiting until 2024 to decide whether the choice of a guild system is really the right one...

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