Discussion: Loop Grinds and HG

  • Tybald
    Marauder
    Insider

    I've made a number of threads talking about loop grinds. When I talk about loop grinds, I am talking about content that tracks activity over a period of time, usually for two or more competing goals, and after that period of time, reset, with the highest one causing a change in the world until the next cycle hits, and a new winner is declared. Rewards on loop grinds are not personal. I.E. Winning doesn't unlock a cosmetic for participants. Instead they introduce SOMETHING into the world that sticks around as long as they are top dog, and goes away when they are not.

    HG is a perfect piece of content for a loop grind. You have two factions, servants vs guardians, the activity is Hourglass value (or wins/losses).

    The question is, what do we do...what changes do we make... for each side when they win a cycle?

    Here are basic criteria that make decent competing loop rewards:

    1. Balanced in desirability, different in function. We want competing rewards so that there is investment in one side winning vs the other. If the rewards are just re-skins of the same thing, then it doesn't matter which side wins, and there is no further incentive to play the loop).
    2. They don't create a feedback cycle. (I.E. A reaper win does not make it easier for reapers to win again, and vice versa). We want both sides to start each cycle on even footing, so we don't want something that gives one side of a loop to have an advantage, or we end up in a situation where we have the same outcome again and again.
    3. They should reflect the faction in some way.
    4. They are communal, not personal. Again, rewards for the cycle should be something that happens in the world, not a personal gain. This could be a state change in the world (Overall bonus to certain activities, environmental differences, etc.) or it could be new, temporary, tools you can acquire in the world.

    What do you think would work well for HG rewards?

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  • a10dr4651
    Commander
    Insider

    The thing I find with hourglass is that it's supposed to be the battle for the Sea of Thieves but it doesn't really feel like you are fighting over anything, it's just a ship battle. SoT's core content comes from interaction over something. Hourglass is missing that element.

    Now, I'm not trying to say here we need a PvE way of gaining allegience, what I'm saying is there needs to be some form of event/item etc that can only be accessed by ships opted in to battle. This ship then has some form of objective but can be invaded at any point while also being contested by the wider server. The mode needs direction and an objective other than just shoot at it each other.

  • Tybald
    Marauder
    Insider

    @a10dr4651 said in Discussion: Loop Grinds and HG:

    The thing I find with hourglass is that it's supposed to be the battle for the Sea of Thieves but it doesn't really feel like you are fighting over anything, it's just a ship battle. SoT's core content comes from interaction over something. Hourglass is missing that element.

    While not addressing your complaint directly, I think the loop grind would at least make the overall HG thing feel more meaningful. After all, if the world reflects the state of Guardians/Servants being stronger at any given time, along with some other benefit, it would make the HG battles feel as if they are accomplishing something, even if the actual fights still feel featureless.

  • LordQulex
    Captain

    The only thing I can think of is that the winning faction has sunk more ships of the opposing faction, and thus has liberated more loot and supplies from the other faction. Along those lines, the only reward that makes sense is rewarding more for loot from the other faction (as we don't want to make supplies cheaper, that could create a feedback cycle).

    That is to say, if Reaper's are winning they get more gold/rep for turning in Athena loot to the servant. If the Guardian's are winning, they get more gold/rep for turning in reaper loot to the stranger. The problem is, 1) the only reaper loot that exists are the reaper's boxes and the stranger doesn't take them, and 2) many players that are already 75/30 don't care about half the rewards, and 3) most current hourglass pirates enjoy hourglass more than adventure mode, so they won't benefit from the rewards anyway. Maybe Athena reps could get more gold/rep for turning in Athena loot (in theory what the factions are fighting over anyway) if they won the last cycle?

    I hate to say it, but it seems to me like hourglass has divided the community into two camps: those that play hourglass exclusively, and those that play adventure exclusively. I have encountered very few pirates willing to raise HG defensively with me on the Discord. So it's challenging to have an hourglass cycle effect adventure mode in any meaningful way because all you're doing is effectively granting the adventure mode community bonuses based on what the hourglass community does. I don't feel this would entice pirates to hop the fence as it were because feelings about hourglass tend to be very strong on one end of the spectrum or the other.

    The only unlimited resource in hourglass is gold (because once you get level 1000 allegiance bonuses would mean nothing). So unless Rare plans on upping the faction level cap when enough players reach level 1000 (RODL), the only HG-internal bonus that makes canonical sense is whichever faction won last cycle gets a % boost to hourglass gold/faction treasury value when they turn in. Unless Rare implements HG-exclusive supplies, gold is really the only boundless reward that you can boost for a cycle, which in retrospect is kind of dull as most HG players don't even care about gold. 🤷‍♂️

  • Tybald
    Marauder
    Insider

    @lordqulex
    You don't need to make the HG loop reward pertain to HG itself.

    Let's use a little lore to think about it. HG is a battle between two factions over the sea of thieves. The loop is essentially tracking how well one side is doing in the overall war compared to the other. That war has implications throughout the entire seas, not just for the fights themselves.

    So, if the Servants are ahead, they now have enough clout to start offering or doing X, while if the guardians are ahead, then they have enough clout to start offering or doing Y.

    The reward for being ahead may be different types of world events. If Servants are up, there might be outpost attacks, guardians might have some sort of special fort attack, or certain forts might open up to be new mini-outposts with unique tools.

  • a10dr4651
    Commander
    Insider

    For Hourglass usage I either dedicate a session too it if I'm on a brig or duo sloop or I use it as a means to server hop now if the server I'm on is lacking activity, win or lose I get a new server. I used to really enjoy solo HG but it seems like it's in a strange place to me, I seem to encounter a lot of dice rollers or TDM'ers who are trying to spawn camp which ends up being the most boring battle imaginable. That's pretty much my HG loop.

  • Sairdontis4317
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    @a10dr4651 said in Discussion: Loop Grinds and HG:

    For Hourglass usage I either dedicate a session too it if I'm on a brig or duo sloop or I use it as a means to server hop now if the server I'm on is lacking activity, win or lose I get a new server. I used to really enjoy solo HG but it seems like it's in a strange place to me, I seem to encounter a lot of dice rollers or TDM'ers who are trying to spawn camp which ends up being the most boring battle imaginable. That's pretty much my HG loop.

    That sounds really, really empty to me .

  • Ghutar
    Legend
    Insider
    Founder

    I would love to have additonal bar of plunder pass with unlocks associated with HG mode with dubloons, gold and items.

    Some mini goals to achive each season are nice carrot for players that allready grinded what they wanted to.

  • EldritchBear
    Ship Mate
    Insider

    @ghutar said in Discussion: Loop Grinds and HG:

    Some mini goals to achive each season are nice carrot for players that allready grinded what they wanted to.

    The problem is, what would it be for everyone else? Associating some of the season pass rewards with hourglass participation would repeat the same mistake of boosting hourglass participation by filling it with people who really don't want to be there.

  • LordQulex
    Captain

    @eldritchbear said in Discussion: Loop Grinds and HG:

    @ghutar said in Discussion: Loop Grinds and HG:

    Some mini goals to achive each season are nice carrot for players that allready grinded what they wanted to.

    The problem is, what would it be for everyone else? Associating some of the season pass rewards with hourglass participation would repeat the same mistake of boosting hourglass participation by filling it with people who really don't want to be there.

    That's the problem with hourglass in the first place: the rewards are more popular than the game mode. Slamming more rewards there isn't the answer, and slamming better rewards there isn't possible. (These curses have been the #1 requested cosmetic since the inception of the game. Rewards aren't getting more desirable.)

    If you want the documentary and the podcasts, you'll come to understand the way the developers play Sea of Thieves, they way I believe they intend it to be played. It's actually very much what @a10dr4651 said; Vote HG, do some PVE, get invaded, do some PVE, sell, dive, do a world event, sell, et cetera. They really wanted it to be an organic part of play and not a training module for future submariners (dive, dive, dive!).

    That's how I want to play it: do some PVE, get some PVP, repeat. But there is no incentive to do PVE while your HG is up. It's added risk with no added reward. They need to buff faction treasury defense. That way experienced pirates like myself will vote up the HG while in adventure mode. That increases the pirate pool of potential targets, and gets everyone fairer matches. (I know it feels now like SBMM is broken but that's because no one is defending. If the matching engine checks defenders first for invaders, the odds of finding a close match increase. There's math behind this that I can explain if you're really interested but not here. It's CS301 level stuff so I doubt many others here are interested.)

  • Ghutar
    Legend
    Insider
    Founder

    @eldritchbear an normal season pass? I mean i don't push myself to grind stuff i dont like to do.

    Like golden curse i pass it.

    It's not like you have to have all of it ;)

    @LordQulex autor is dead, his intentions is one way and how his work will be used is another one.

  • Tybald
    Marauder
    Insider

    @ghutar said in Discussion: Loop Grinds and HG:

    I would love to have additonal bar of plunder pass with unlocks associated with HG mode with dubloons, gold and items.

    Some mini goals to achive each season are nice carrot for players that allready grinded what they wanted to.

    That's honestly what loop grinds are in to solve, that and world stagnation.

    Each loop grind (there should be 3 or more) changes the world in some way, ending up in one of multiple states. These states may be different tools, slightly different rules, different world events, etc. Each cycle turns the crank and the game (and meta) takes on slightly different look. In order to change the world, you have to engage in the loop because you want one outcome or another.

    Think of each loop like a sped up version of the Save Golden Sales era. You either do X, you do Y, or maybe even Z and the world changes according to which was done more. If you want X and Z happened, then during the next cycle you focus on doing X.

    If you want what the guardians offer from HG fights, you need to fight for guardians in HG, others who would prefer that the Reaper world state take precedent would be fighting for Reaper.

    With multiple loops, each cycle turn creates a unique combination of overlapping world states. The game tweaks every cycle to something slightly different.

  • Ghutar
    Legend
    Insider
    Founder

    @tybald I understand it intention but lot of players care little for changes pushed by grind loop.

    Personally I would not give single blue dubloon about stuff you mentioned (I would not participy in activites based soly on thinking about loop grind) yet I would spend my time grinding for cosmetic I like.

  • Tybald
    Marauder
    Insider

    @ghutar
    The problem with ladder grinds is once you reach the top, you are done.

  • LordQulex
    Captain

    @tybald Only if getting to the top is your goal. I'm already at the top of most every ladder. I'm 75/75/75/75/50/28, I have every ledger reward, I've done every adventure and have both curses (I have no interest in grinding out 1000/1000). You know why I still play? Because I enjoy the game.

    I like what you said above, two or three cycle grinds that overlay. But the only game that had even one I can think of is Planetside 2. Three is... ambitious I think, especially for a game that has zero.

    Can you tell me a game that has what you described, three over-layed cycle grind that create 8+ possible shared world sandbox states? I'd be interested in looking into them.

  • Tybald
    Marauder
    Insider

    @lordqulex
    I say world states, but that is a very broad term. A new temporary "tools not rules" item is a new world state. An outpost selling something that might normally only be gatherable from barrels is a new world state.

    Final Fantays 11 had an influence grind between each of the 3 nations in each zone. Each zone could be considered a world state...so there were plenty.

  • Ghutar
    Legend
    Insider
    Founder

    @tybald ain't emissary rewards work like that allready and you can farm respetive pvp factions by doing HG?

    Im not against grind loop but rewards must be attractive enough to do it and best rewards in only cosmetic progresion game are cosmetics.

  • Tybald
    Marauder
    Insider

    @ghutar

    Perhaps. But I'll add an (extreme) example to illustrate my point. (Note: I'm not advocating this particular idea, but it is just for illustration purposes).

    A loop grind with 2 outcomes, weekly cycle. If side A wins, Hourglass is disabled for the next cycle. If Side B wins, Hourglass is active the next cycle.

    Another loop grind between 3 different factions. Whichever faction wins determines which world event the Chest of Fortune spawns at.

    Those two changes would be significant, and would hopefully be enough to motivate people to engage with that loop.

  • Ghutar
    Legend
    Insider
    Founder

    @tybald ok i get you my pov:

    [Enything temporary A] Don't care
    [Enything temporary B] Don't care

    If i liked outcome I will contiune playing as usuall if not i will skip that week and jump into other game.

    If it's temporary change than why bother?

    I think you overesitmate player involment in stuff like that.

    Of course I can uderestimate it too ;)

  • Tybald
    Marauder
    Insider

    @ghutar

    In games where i've been in, it matters to enough people to make the loops interesting. While you may not care, others might. The goal is to at least generate enough evergreen content to keep those things going after a ladder has finished.

  • Ghutar
    Legend
    Insider
    Founder

    @tybald Again understand you point.

    As I said it all boils down to "if rewards will be rewarding enough"
    So FOR ME in game where all what you can grab (exept fun) it is comestic lack of cosmetic reward is big meh.

    But it's you know my opinion and we can agree to disagree couse there is no need to endlessly repeat ourselfs.

  • HiradC
    Lord
    Insider

    You get the little ships on the board in each lair which represent how the battle is going. Not sure how accurate or how often they update but they've always shown guardians winning by significant margin

  • Tybald
    Marauder
    Insider

    @hiradc
    I haven't seen that, but not sure it matters in the long run. We are still in the ladder grind phase. Once people have a meaningful reason beyond cosmetics to choose a faction, that could change.

  • Soulstinger2k20
    Master
    Insider

    Wouldnt take much for Port Merrick or a new, neutral HG Outpost that is 'claimed' by whomever is winning during a set period, and players buying supplies or turning in their HG would get a discount/bonus if they match the currently winning faction, or a small tax/penalty if they are the opposing faction

    Just an idea

  • Tybald
    Marauder
    Insider

    @soulstinger2k20

    Possibly, but I am of the opinion that a loop grind reward should be something that reaches outside the loop itself. If the reward only impacts those who are already taking part of the loop, it doesn't draw people in. Instead, the reward (and the entire mode) becomes entirely ignorable. You want the reward to be enticing to draw people in to take a side. I really want those reaper related world events to spawn, but they are behind this cycle. I could hop on and support them.

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