Dark adventures sails pay to win?

@zeromoderation said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

DA sails DO provide more of a visual advantage over every other sail cut when the sails are all the way lowered, especially when equipped on larger ships.

DA sails are NOT the biggest issue SoT has at the moment, not even close.

Alter the sails, make them less advantageous to use on larger ships.

Perfectly fine solution.

Give players the ability to select their preferred sail cut.

Back to square one, now everybody chooses the Dark Adventurer sail cut with whatever sails they want.

So if the issue is really about the “advantage” the DA sails give then the only solution is altering the cut to make it less visually advantageous to use when sails are fully lowered.

Yes the majority would use something with a DA-Cut then. Yes that is already the case, so what's the big deal?
But thinking that this would be square one is really everything but thought-through.
The entire DA-Issue is that it ruins the beauty of customization.
AND if I can use every sail I want WITH said advantage :D (Or at least most)
That would be EVERYTHING but "back to square one"!

@gallerine5582 said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

I'm not saying the, however small, advantage doesn't exist I'm saying it's way overhyped and overrated, and I want to see more variety on the seas again.
Honestly, I don't know who's POV I'm failing to see, I try and see all of them when in an argument like this, despite whatever names you want to call me. " :) "

And yes while every second counts in PVP, but you don't need to be spending every second of it on the wheel.
The wheel is like... the least "every second counts" part of an encounter. Every second counts applies to things like repairing and bucketing, to shooting cannons or getting the sails up or down. I'm not saying helm is the least important role, but it's the most flexible in your "every second counts" example.

Idk, to me the seconds that decide who gets the initiative on a broadside (which is ... what a surprise ... predominantly decided by proper Helm- and Sail-Work),
are ... probably among THE most important seconds there are in PvP. You describing it as the "least", yeah ... no.

@zeromoderation said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

@lormiun

First of all, it’s not already the case. Not everybody uses DA sails even though they do provide a visual advantage when sails are lowered all the way down.

Secondly, the sails and thus access to the sail cut are costly. As a matter of fact, they are the most expensive sails in the game. Most casual players don’t own DA sails.

Third, surely the devs aren’t going to want to modify every sail one by one to make sure it doesn’t look off when used with different cuts so why not just do the easiest, least time consuming solution to the problem?

Simply nerf the DA sails cut. Make DA sails less visually advantageous when sails are lowered fully.

I personally don’t care if they leave DA sails exactly the way they are or alter the cut to make them more in line with the other cuts that exist.

But if you care most about people over using DA sails in your opinion then what is wrong with altering them so that visual advantage isn’t as prominent?

Would that not solve your issue?

Now don't call this "My issue" XD
Yes I am very vocal about it, probably on of the most vocal persons on the internet about it.
But I am not the one who started this post, neither did I start the last or the one before that ...

But yes, it would solve the issue.
And the ability to select sail-shapes would with nay a doubt not be a minor side project, Rare will have to invest sweat into that.

But simply removing it would be the cheapest, laziest and most uninnovative solution.
Also it would be quite controversial because A LOT of m8ts that bought the sails for the V-Cut (Yeah ...) WILL not be too happy about that.
So some refunds would be in order ... and there we go down a rabbit hole.

So why not capitalize on that instead?

@gallerine5582 said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

This is getting off the topic of annoying sails being annoying, I'm not going to argue PvP with people, it's insufferable because it's so situational in every interaction that it's bascially pointless.

That is true, to a point.
But the PvP-advantage is with nay a doubt a critical part of this Issue.

OP is even calling it Pay-to-Win.
Which is wrong yes, but you think he'd do that if it was JUST about some pure cosmetic itself?

@xshirahx said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

Okay, but let me ask the important question here - who PvP's with mid sail all the way down (or main sail on brig)? Anyone?

I do. Not all the time but when the time is due.

And I just saw you deleted my initial post.

I put effort into that -.-

@zeromoderation said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

@lormiun said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

So why not capitalize on that instead?

Because the visual advantage is real although it’s debatable how useful that visual advantage really is.

Anything with a distinct advantage over other customization options isn’t supposed to be a thing. Especially if that advantage is tied to the MOST expensive set of sails in the game.

So remove the advantage and let people choose a sail based on what they like rather than what cosmetic gives them an advantage.

Win-win for everybody except those who purchased the sails specifically for an advantage over other sails.

No refunds are needed. It’s not real money.

LOL!
Yes it may not be real money.
But I spent REAL time of my life grinding for them.
That was worth it to me! It would NOT have been if it were not for the Cut XD
And I ASSSSSURRRREEEE you, I am not the only one that had this motive.

And what is much more important:
Yes you are RIGHT!
There should NOT be such an advantage in SoT tied to such an item!
Removing the Cut would solve the issue yes!
But why not allow us to APPLY such a cut (among other shapes out of a reasonable pool ofc)
TO our sails!
So we KEEP the advantage and make it available to every taste!

Progress instead of Regression.

@xshirahx said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

@lormiun I got here 2 seconds ago.

And let's be fair, it isn't that often that you will willingly sacrifice manoeuvrability for speed in any kind of more intense situation. If you do, I'm not quite sure what you're doing other than possibly bailing out cause you need time to repair.

Oh yeah, I must apologize, I confused you with WaywardF0x there for a moment.

To answer your question though: I do normal naval.
I primarily sail on a Galleon. And I am vehemently against the "common" strat of front-and back-sail.
Like ... why?!
I have more control over middle as helm, because it is much closer.
And yes, having a bit more speed by deploying it fully is far from an unskilled approach, at least I win often enough to be able to say that with sufficient confidence.

YET EVEN IF I DID NOT :D
It would be my right to have this "faulty" opinion.
And the numbers of DA-Users out there speak a clear language in my support.
You cannot deny that.

@zeromoderation said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

Because the DA cut provides an advantage over every other cut.

Allowing players to use whatever cut they want with whatever style they want doesn’t remove the advantage.

Modifying the DA cut to be less advantageous solves both issues at the same time with the least amount of work possible.

It’s not regression it’s progression towards a more balanced game.

Being a huge proponent of balanced gameplay I strongly advocate for the solution of nerfing the DA cut.

Uhh ...
Yes.
Yes, if everybody can apply such a form of cut to EVERYTHING, then the advantage is gone.
Advantage means, being in some way superior to someone else, if that other person also possesses this superiority, ... that is not an advantage anymore XD
I mean sure, you could deliberately handycap yourself by NOT using that, but ... you can already do that by using parrot-cannons or smth similar.

@zeromoderation said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

No that’s not true. That advantage isn’t gone it’s been normalized for everyone who can afford to own DA sails. Which isn’t everyone.

LoL ... uhh ... I never said you would have to own the DA-Sails to be able to apply such a cut XD
I'd even be against that.
Sure SOME cuts for very exquisite sails SHOULD be VERY expensive but not all ofc!

@zeromoderation said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

@lormiun

Any cosmetic option that provides a distinct advantage over all other cosmetic options of the same type should NOT exist.

Plain and simple.

AMEN TO THAT!
But ... how this equality is achieved, THAT is the art :D

You advocate for the removal of a QoL improvement.
I advocate for giving it to everyone.

I mean ... it just makes sailing SO MUCH MORE ENJOYABLE!

And let me tell you this:
I cannot go back to steering a Brig without smth like DA-Sails anymore.
I just cannot O.O
And I am 100% not hinged to state that.

@zeromoderation said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

@lormiun

I’ll give you a good example that isn’t related to the Dark Adventurer set.

Choosing to equip no shoes should not result in quieter footsteps than when wearing shoes.

All pirates should emit the same volume of footsteps when walking regardless of what shoe type equipped or lack there of.

You and I are 100% on same page.
Unlike some here that would try to claim that this is all "made up" or "100% irrelevant".

We are merely discussing how we would solve this.

@zeromoderation said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

@lormiun

Ask your crew for a courtesy curl.

... Or how about ... I use DA-Sails 🤔
AND HERE we have the issue :D

It is true yes, removing the cut would solve this.
I'd just rather have the best of both worlds :D

But let me mention one more point:
I am fairly sure that Rare will not remove the cut at this point, no matter what.
BECAUSE: This issue is far from new, it has been serious for ... well at least a year now.
They would have done so already if that was what they would have decided on.
I MIGHT ofc be wrong about that, this is just speculation.
But I honestly don't see it happening.

And let me say ANOTHER thing though:
If, on for the long run, I had to choose between the Status-Q and the Cut getting removed.
I WOULD choose it to be removed.
For the good of SoT. (Not that I am in a position to make such a choice ofc XD)

HOWEVER:
I am actually fairly confident, that at some point in the foreseeable future, we will in fact get the ability to select sail shapes :)

Let's break this down:

DA cut:
Pros: better visibility
Cons: none
Equivalents: none

So anyone trying to wring out every last drop of advantage is going to pick the DA sails for obvious reasons.

Get rid of the cut.

@scheneighnay said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

Let's break this down:

DA cut:
Pros: better visibility
Cons: none
Equivalents: none

So anyone trying to wring out every last drop of advantage is going to pick the DA sails for obvious reasons.

Get rid of the cut.

I am actually happy that the majority of the sane community FINALLY acknowledges the existence of the advantage :D
But once again I feel obliged in my presence here to make another proposal.

To put it simply:
Instead of getting rid of the cut, why not make it available to everyone?

@lormiun said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

@scheneighnay said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

Let's break this down:

DA cut:
Pros: better visibility
Cons: none
Equivalents: none

So anyone trying to wring out every last drop of advantage is going to pick the DA sails for obvious reasons.

Get rid of the cut.

I am actually happy that the majority of the sane community FINALLY acknowledges the existence of the advantage :D
But once again I feel obliged in my presence here to make another proposal.

To put it simply:
Instead of getting rid of the cut, why not make it available to everyone?

The majority of the community has always seen the advantage, look at any mention of it outside the forum.

It just a lot of the people on the forum specifically want to keep things the way they are to hold their advantages.

@xshirahx said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

Why are people acting like this is the first time someone is under the impression that DA sails somehow give this big advantage in PvP? And why are people ignoring the fact that if that was even remotely true, this would have been "adjusted" a loooooong time ago.

Aren't you supposed to be impartial?

@zeromoderation said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

Dark Adventurer Sails - According to the Wikis

Fandom

The cutouts on the bottom of the Sails allow for a somewhat less obstructed view compared to most other sails, which provides an alleged visibility advantage to players at the Helm of their Ship in certain situations. This difference is most notable on the Brigantine and the Galleon, while being less prominent on the Sloop.

Wiki dot gg

The cutouts on the bottom of the Sails allow for a much less obstructed view compared to most other sails, which provides a visibility advantage to players at the Helm of their Ship.

Just so you know, not too long ago it actually said on the wiki: "The Cutout provides an advantage." Period.

@xshirahx said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

@scheneighnay said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

@xshirahx said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

Why are people acting like this is the first time someone is under the impression that DA sails somehow give this big advantage in PvP? And why are people ignoring the fact that if that was even remotely true, this would have been "adjusted" a loooooong time ago.

Aren't you supposed to be impartial?

Right now, I'm here as a community member, just like anyone else. I'm not partial in any direction.

In that case: Allow me to answer you your question:
First: Because simply removing the cutout would make A LOT of ppl VERY angry.
Second: Because personally, I think they will go with a new feature, namely (and as mentioned before) the ability to select sail-shapes. That ofc will take them time though.
Simple as.
SHOULD I be wrong about this, and NOTHING should be done about this issue ... then it will get even worse and in about 2 years I tell you, ...
noobs aside, seeing anything other then Edge-Lord-DA-Ships will become an exception for anything that isn't a Sloop ...
we are already more than half-way on the voyage to this scenario, half of the ships I meet in HG use DA-Sails and those that don't are usually candy-Wins.

That is the sad truth.
But for everyone to be a DA-Edge-Lord is most CERTAINLY not the vision of SoT though.
And because I do not judge Rare to take the easy way out, the ability to select sail-shapes is what I dare to optimistically expect.

Not only to solve the DA-Issue, but also to simply improve on customization.

@tesiccl said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

Why are people acting like this is the first time someone is under the impression that DA sails somehow give this big advantage in PvP? And why are people ignoring the fact that if that was even remotely true, this would have been "adjusted" a loooooong time ago.

And there it is. Case closed.

And that from someone that claims that the DA-Sails he sees are all EZ.
You know what actually is EZ?
Disproving the claim that said advantage is oh so ignorable.
So I say what I always say:
For EVEN if that was true, it would appear a VAST amount of the decently progressed community would seem to disagree through their use of the DA-Sails.

@tesiccl said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

@lormiun again, ignoring what the mod has said. I know you won't be convinced and everyone else is wrong, but it is still worth saying you are wrong. Flat out wrong. Sorry if that's a hard pill to swallow. The last i'll reply to this.

What an incredible way to close.
A "no u".

I truly am defeated.