Dark adventures sails pay to win?

E.g. this dude here:

@foambreaker said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

I like to PvP, but I am not pro by any means.

I usually raise the sail a bit just to slow down, it seems others do this as well, so it really doesn't matter.

Am I doing it wrong?

I assume he does not own DA-Sails and probably never stood behind the helm of a Brig, much less a Galleon, with DA-Sails to have a scope of reference.
I have neither disrespect nor any problem with him, but if my assumption is correct, he simply has no idea.
AND I AM BEING OPTMISTIC!
Because IF he actually does own them, if he actually knows what he is talking about, then that would be as mentioned, an entirely different story.

Should his question be honest though then let me answer it:
From a QoL- and Meta-PoV, sadly yes, you should be using DA-Sails for when you don't want to slow down.

Now let me show it to the world again!

And before anyone comes crying again saying: MEHHH!!!! THE SAILS SHOULD ALWAS BE TO THE SIDE!!! WHINNEEEE!!!

A. It still offers an unignorable advantage TO said side.
B. It should not always -.- And you know it, crawl back into the sea from whence you came!

@nex-stargaze said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

It was only a matter of time before a familiar name returned to this topic.

The same can be said about you, but I am flattered nevertheless.

This argument is going to go in circles until every player is refunded their 8.5 million gold for a sail that really gives very little advantage in PvP, if any.

As stated countless times before, even if we accept the PvP advantage as "very little", which it is not but ok, the TRUE CORE is the insane increase in QoL.
But it is good to see that you too seemingly finally came to the conclusion that SOMETHING needs to be done about this issue, even though for the wrong reasons.

So let me reply this to you as well: Once again, why deny the SoT such a glorious QoL-Improvement? Don't just remove it, give it to everybody!
Improve on the SoT instead of choosing the easy-way-out.

I must have overlooked that one but it is so glorious that I must reply now still:

@d3adst1ck said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

Strawman argument after strawman argument. I've helmed galleons and brigantines and I don't use the adventurer sails. I don't need them, but with your insistence that;

A) They are an advantage
B) You refuse to accept a solution that would involve removing them

It sure sounds like you don't want your crutch removed but you're tired of the same color sails.

LOL YES!
100% YES!
You cannot accuse me of a Strawman in ANY way because YES 100%
I never claimed something else.
And what is so wrong about that? I have a feeling that this is true for almost everybody including you,
just that you rather live the lie of there not being an advantage SO you can use whatever you want without feeling inferior :D
But yes 100%, we use the DA-Sails because the "crutch" is unignorable, even though we'd cosmetically probably prefer to use something else!

It is just that I want everybody to have that "crutch".
And reading between the lines it seems you, beneath the delusion, know exactly that they are indeed a "crutch", weird choice of wording but whatever.

It is the QoL that matters. But cosmetics matter too!
I hold these truths to be self-evident.

@goldsmen said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

The easy way out seems to be the right way out in this case to me considering even when on a brig, i have never been disadvantaged by not sitting on the wheel constantly in combat. Generally in combat, you dont want to be on the wheel except for the moment you need to turn, otherwise there are probably a lot higher priorities in the battle.

If it came down to changing any sails, rather than making more sails with the cut, at this point i would just say alter da so that they are on par with normal sails because it really makes little difference if you shouldnt be sitting on the wheel in the first place. If the wheel isnt being turned, get off of it, and if its being turned in combat, odds are its not because your opponent is in front of you.

A fair Point of View.
Though I must say that I do not believe you if you say that even on a Brig you do not see the disadvantage of using anything else other than the DA-Sails atm. That is just BS.

With that out the way though, we can talk:
Removing the cut-out would with nay-a-doubt be a quick and easy solution, the variety would return to the SoT in an instant.
HOWEVER:
I assure you, just like I assure everybody that wants it removed, it WILL make A LOT of ppl very angry ... I don't think I need to explain why.
But what is even more important, and I will not get tired of asking that:

Why remove such a glorious QoL-Improvement when you could instead capitalize on it?
Forget the PvP-aspect of the DA-Issue for a moment (you can talk your throat sore about that)
The ability to select sail-shapes similar to cannon-flares would be a very cool feature on its own.

@nex-stargaze said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

@lormiun said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

@nex-stargaze said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

It was only a matter of time before a familiar name returned to this topic.

The same can be said about you, but I am flattered nevertheless.

This argument is going to go in circles until every player is refunded their 8.5 million gold for a sail that really gives very little advantage in PvP, if any.

As stated countless times before, even if we accept the PvP advantage as "very little", which it is not but ok, the TRUE CORE is the insane increase in QoL.
But it is good to see that you too seemingly finally came to the conclusion that SOMETHING needs to be done about this issue, even though for the wrong reasons.

I only want something done to squash this ridiculous discussion, because it's a negligible issue that only exists in a few inexperienced players' heads. I'm almost to the point where this topic just needs to be addressed in a statement so this kind of complaint can cease.

You think I don't know that? A bit like a politician that only gives in after heavy protests.
Why else did I say "for the wrong reasons" XD

And the audacity to actually call this "a negligible issue that only exists in a few inexperienced players' heads".
Yeah, because the community with solid 4digit numbers and a full DA-Set to boast is on average soooo inexperienced ... ofc we are.

So let me reply this to you as well: Once again, why deny the SoT such a glorious QoL-Improvement? Don't just remove it, give it to everybody!
Improve on the SoT instead of choosing the easy-way-out.

The design intention of the sail wasn't even Quality of Life. It is, at most, supposed to be a set made to boast how much fortune you've accumulated over your pirate's career, and is part of one of the game's heaviest gold sinks for pirates. Nothing in there says that the sail is an inherent advantage, and the design was created so an advantage wasn't so noticeable and even appear negligible to what any other pirate would use.

No, Rare is not that dumb, they knew exactly why they added that V-Cut.
They knew that otherwise, too few ppl would actually make use of that Gold-Sink.
And I even dare assume that they also knew that it would be a massive QoL-Increase for the larger ships.
The prestige part is true, but it is absolutely overshadowed by the rest.

It is a playerbase-wide misconception that very consistently gets debunked by several players, including forum moderators, deckhands, boatswains, and Rare employees. Even if you believe there is an advantage, it is completely negligible purely by execution and not by concept. If you are on the wheel and have trouble seeing ahead, it is usually advised to remove yourself from the wheel, move past your sail which may be obstructing your vision, and check your horizon. DA sails do not significantly change that, it never has.

Once again the sheer audacity to call the VERY large playerbase that actually sees this advantage for what it is as having a misconception about it.
You actually think us that dumb? And your so called "debunking" of that, yeah ... I know my way around that, I guess you know that, you are "debunking" nothing.
And I would honestly and VERY dearly have a source from you where an actual Rare employee directly states something about the DA-Sails in relation to this issue.
I think you are confusing this with PvE-Servers. (And even that could have been clearer ...)

I can keep arguing against every single point of yours, but you'll consistently have a rebuttal that gets everyone nowhere and simultaneously clogs up the thread in argumentative posts that are causing forum moderators and admins to carefully eye the thread because of your rash approach to the objection of your own opinion. You have a very small crowd that has an issue with this, over the crowd of people that don't have an issue with this, and it would be appreciated if you could at the very minimum, read the room.

Read the room huh? Did I start this post? Did I start the fight? You actually think the crowd is that small?!
Ofc it is much smaller than the vast amount of ppl that simply don't know about it because they are probably not even PL, but that is not exactly a good point.

I am not new to the internet. On forums like these there is ALWAYS a Status-Q army.
And my dude I read the room. We are winning this fight.
SOMETHING will happen about it.
You, among others, are a prime example.
You deny this issue, you argue for the Satus-Q without any regards to what it actually needs.
And even you are brought to the point where you accept that something needs to be done about it.
That goes for some of the mods out here too.

I already read "the room" back when I argued over Red-Sea-Suiciding, just when I read "the room" when I argued over the loot Mushroom.
In both cases ... it would appear that I was right 🤔 and others were wrong.

But I am happy to let you in on my secret:
Idc about ppls opinions or feelings, I care about facts.

Facts:

@scheneighnay said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

DA cut:
Pros: better visibility
Cons: none
Equivalents: none

@goldsmen said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

If it makes people angry, then so be it i guess, the red sea change made a lot of people angry, but it at least stopped people needing to complain about others running to the red sea, as well changing it so every sail can have the cut will probably anger other people who already have the sails. Its a lose lose either way.

You bring up a good point there, to address this I have to go a bit deeper and assume the moral high ground.

You see, when someone used the Red-Sea-BS pre-S9, they knew very well that it is a scummy and cowardly move that benefits no-one.
I assure you that even most of those that frequently used this strat are happy about its removal, given a somewhat functional moral compass.
Where is the outcry? I see only appreciation for the removal of this strat. I see nobody crying: "MEHHH NOW I CANNOLOGER SPITE PPL CRYYYYY D: !!!"
How funny yet pathetic would that be XD ?

For the DA-Sails, giving such sight-improvement to everybody would surely make a fair amount of those that payed 8+mil fairly upset, but once again, deep down even they will be VERY happy about this change, I guarantee you that + They will be the vast minority. Most DA-Users will, like myself, be HEAVENLY HAPPY about the ability to finally make use of the full customization again :D

Now if the cut was to be simply removed however:
EVERY DA-USER would feel rightfully cheated out of the sight-improvement they payed 8+mil for.
Refunds would be required ... but not just for the Sails ... the entire Set please, because we bought it BECAUSE of the Sails.
A very fair amount of us would also greatly lament the simple loss of it ... and that would weigh by far the heaviest.

So why even go down that road? Just because it's easy?
I do not think that low of Rare, quite the opposite.

As for sail shape being a cool idea, maby, but i dont see a slight change to the existing sail structure being cool, i want different types of sails entirely, not just a cut.

A-M-E-N.
It actually makes me sad that my suggestion of 'the ability to select-sail-shapes similar to cannon flares' is still being misunderstood so often.
What I am advocating for are MANY different versions of the Cut-out with the DA-V-Cut just being one of them, if at all.
And it wouldn't even have to stop there! Whatever the budget of Rare allows :D

@soulstinger2k20 said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

Im all for sail customization, truth be told DA sails are hideous.

Not caring about your reasons, if this is truly your stance, I see you as an ally in this fight.

And also; why are some people SO UPSET about it?
The advantage is so minimal, so situational, I just dont get the vitriol.

Behold:

You can call this minimal ... I (and a H-U-G-E amount of m8ts) do not.

@soulstinger2k20 said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

Just seems like a strawman to hold up to blame losses on.

PL and 6m isnt that hard to attain.

Instead of constantly searching for ways to drag everyone else down, look for ways to raise others up.

It is over 8m, and that is not even relevant. It could be 20.
I never ONCE lost because of these sails, you want to know why? Because since about a month after their release, I used them exclusively.
I am trying exactly that, I am trying to advocate for an improvement to the SoT, I will not feel guilty about that :D

That is why this forum exists.

@soulstinger2k20 said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

Im not your ally or your enemy, just someone else who plays a video game posting my thoughts on the forums.

The "ally" thing was merely an expression about certain views aligning XD
It is not far fetched though, this is a hot topic ... that you can believe.

Think youre still taking it a bit too seriously tho.

I too am just "someone else who plays a video game posting my thoughts on the forums".
But I do love SoT.

Pro-sail customization, against nerfing stuff because people who havnt earned it yet, but can, think its unfair that it exists.

Amen.

there are several sails that can you help to see where are you going:

• Phantom Captain Sails
• Sails of dangerous seas
• Sails of the Cursed Captain
• Kraken Sails
• The Black pearl sails (collector)
  in the fact every sails that is consumed on the bottom or with holes and stripes.
  in PvP is i'vealwais taken half sails so is not a huge problem for me, can you do PvP using all the sails open?

@fedted998 said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

there are several sails that can you help to see where are you going:

• Phantom Captain Sails
• Sails of dangerous seas
• Sails of the Cursed Captain
• Kraken Sails
• The Black pearl sails (collector)
  in the fact every sails that is consumed on the bottom or with holes and stripes.
  in PvP is i'vealwais taken half sails so is not a huge problem for me, can you do PvP using all the sails open?

To keep this simple:
None. Not a single one, comes even CLOSE to the DA-Sails.
These are truly ignorable, (even Kraken Sails yes).

So why not give this edge to all?

@triheadedmonkey said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

TL;DR....

Remove the DA sails 'advantage' and everyone is happy?

'just adding' the same to all sails is not as simple as it seems.

The simplest solution to the 'problem' would be to remove the DA sails cut.

Exactly.

@zeromoderation said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

The cut doesn’t have to be removed just modified to be more visually obstructive when the sails are lowered all the way down.

No reason to outright remove it when you can just modify it to be more balanced.

Uhh ...
to modify the DA-Sails "to be more visually obstructive when the sails are lowered all the way down."
That is pretty much the definition of removing the Cut XD

I think the game needs a new expensive set to grind for. It was challenging saving up the gold needed to buy the entire DA set. I still don’t own all of it. Like the hull and the figurehead but I’m working towards it.

Amen to that, but the motivation should be Prestige, and Prestige alone. Not some advantage.
Guess it is just too good a motivation ... huh ...

@d3adst1ck said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

If it will make you feel better, and make it fair for everyone, they should remove the cut from the DA sails until they are able to provide a sail shape selector.

My initial 'quick-&-easy'-solution would have been to release just a handful of similarly shaped sails to accommodate for at least most tastes.
Rare has not done that though, and it is understandable, that would hurt their Emporium sales, already negatively impacted by this DA-Issue, quite a bit more.

There are only 2 true solutions that can be described as such.

+Remove the Cut
+A sail shape selector

I find it extremely unlikely that Rare would at this point in time still opt for a "temporary" solution.
And I do not judge Rare to take the easy way. If they wanted to remove the Cut, they would have done so ~ a year ago, (at least so I dare assume)
... and it is not hard to think of the rather heavy downsides this "solution" would come with, and you should not compare that to releasing anniversary cosmetics to the public XD

And I am sure,
we can all agree on the ability to select sail-shapes, similar to cannon-flares, being a MUCH better solution.
The only downside of that would be that it cannot be done over night.
But we are talking about Rare here.

...
Rare, that gave us HG S8
Rare, that gave us Captaincy S7
...

I honestly doubt that it is beyond reasonable for them to give us a Sail-Shape-Selector (excellent term btw.).

@guyrza said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

@lormiun U want me to name another issue thats more serious that DA sails? Glad u asked: hitreg, cheaters, lack of gold-priced cosmetics, lack of new activities, the list goes on. These issues require devs to fix it, while the DA problem can be saolved by raising sails a little, which is smth u dont do

And I am glad you answered, because you said exactly what every casual would say (no offense).

Hitreg. Has been around since pretty much Day 1. While true I am afraid we must accept it, it ain't going anywhere anytime soon.
Cheaters. This is an omnipresent and eternal fight, if the rumors are true, Rare has already outsourced this to 'specialists'. While true this is still something that simply ... is.

Lack of gold-priced cosmetics. THIS is NOT more pressing than the DA-Issue, (and I honestly don't even see that) XD
Lack of new activities ... No.

And the list does not go on.
The only valid responses are the default responses since Day 1. Hitreg and Cheaters.

I have not met a SINGLE obvious cheater in my 1,4k hours.
And even Hitreg seems to happen very rarely for me.
SO MAYBE I AM BIASED DUE TO MY LUCK!
THAT I WILL NOT DENY AND I RESPECT ANYONE THAT DISAGREES WITH ME ON THAT!
But these two issues that have been around for AGES aside, I honestly do not see a more pressing issue than the DA-Issue, and that does not mean that it is "light".
An Issue that is POISON to the entire progression-system of SoT.

PS: Congrats, you brought up the sacred "curl ", 5 points to Swabbidor.

@funnyqchen said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

@lormiun Hey, maybe chill out a bit more. Name-calling ain't helping your cause.

Give me a break, I always follow the forum rules.

You are not wrong, DA Sails give a slight advantage. But if we're honest, who really needs that advantage? High level player ain't using them, they like to show off their rare AA, NAL, SoC, GH or other by now unobtainable sails.

Idk, apparently every second ship in HG uses them. So these "Higher Players" are aperantly VERY rare.

In HG fights you'll raise your sails anyway. It can maaayyyybe help in Adventure a bit, but how often does it happen that those sails make the difference between sink or sinking?

I can see MUCH better with DA-Sails.
Even after almost a year of this, it is still mind-blowing how ppl downplay this.
BUT POINT taken once more, you are right about it not making the world of difference in PvP.
Never claimed that. But it makes a difference, much greater than that of any other cosmetic
... and what truly counts here is QoL.

I can get behind the point that it's an "unfair" QoL sail against non Piratelegends, but don't let us blow this out of proportion.

The true issue is not the unfairness, that is just a small part of the whole.
The issue is the simple fact that everybody that wants this QoL-improvement (which is seemingly not a rare thing ... wow) can no longer fully enjoy the customization of SoT.
That is the great sorrow.
And indeed, that bugs me out like crazy.
I want to use my glorious Athena-Set again!
BUT I CAN'T! Because I want that QoL even more!
Is this supposed to be some kind of punishment for that desire?!

And behold, I am not alone ...

@funnyqchen said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

I was referring to that:

@lormiun said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

PS: Congrats, you brought up the sacred "curl ", 5 points to Swabbidor.

---

That's a reference to Harry Potter XD
If you have a problem with such a harmless reference, grow some backbone.

Idk, apparently every second ship in HG uses them. So these "Higher Players" are apparently VERY rare.

Well, I guess I can't argue against personal experience, mine so far was very different, though I guess we are matched against different level of player.

Let me make one thing very clear, if you (just like the majority of the SoT) are a Sloop main and only very rarely sail on the bigger ship,
you most likely have no idea about the true scale of this issue.

I sail almost exclusively on the Galleon on the Helm.

Okay, it doesn't make much of a difference in PvP, so you need those sails to cruse in adventure? You can see better, but why do you need that? For what? You told us you can see more, that is right, but why do you need to see so much more? To see if a rock comes up? Walk those tree steps, or better even, your crew should tell you. Honestly, a good Helmsman isn't even often at the Helm.

-.-
Are you serious?
Do I really have to answer that?

And if I hear the [mod edit] that "a good Helmsman isn't even often at the Helm" I honestly wonder if the person that says that is just lying or has just no idea.
How about that: I don't want to trouble my crew with trivial stuff (especially in PvP mind you), and (especially in a storm mind you) I'd rather focus full attention on helm for a more enjoyable and more relaxed voyage. That doesn't mean I am "glued" to it, but the Helm is the place of the Helmsman! IT'S IN THE NAME!

And the possibility of being able to preform this duty better, is called a QoL-improvement, and a BIG one it is!
Just stop downplaying it. It is so blatantly obvious that these sails are obnoxiously overused.

I want to use my glorious Athena-Set again!
BUT I CAN'T! Because I want that QoL even more!

That's on you and them. Either use those sails or adapt. No way around that.
I own the ferryman set, I can not not use that, right? But that's just a me problem and I know that.

Don't you dare call this a "me-problem" XD
If you have the choice between something that merely looks good but preforms like ****.
And something that looks average at best but preforms awesome ...
Yeah the choice is no real choice for most logical minded ppl if success is their goal.

Choosing performance over looks is not "on me".
As it currently is, having to make that choice in the first place is the issue.

Which is why we are here ...

@guyrza said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

@lormiun "you said exactly what every casual would say" buddy, at least Im raising sails when I PVP. And with your arguments being "oh well jus accept the hitreg" I can say "well jus accept the DA cut".
"Lack of new acrtivities...No" well, DA cut is an issue...No.
Please dont use arguments like that, I can do the same and they will make no sense either way.

When just a season ago we got a huge new PvP mode,
"Lack of new acrtivities..." is [mod edit]. This is such a spongy point in the first place that a simple "No" is the appropriate answer.

And about Hit-Reg:
This is a VERY deep technical issue, otherwise it would have already been fixed, that much we can assume.
If you really want to boil it down to DA-Issue vs. Hitreg. WELL YEAH! Fixing Hitreg would be probably better!
Thing is: Fixing Hitreg is obviously incomparable in its needed resource-investment if we compare it to a Sail-Shape-Selector.
Going deep into the netcoding of SoT and probably having to rework it from the ground up ... yeah ... unless some ultra-genius at Rare finds an easier solution, I just don't see that happening any time soon.
On the other hand, going through the Sail-Skins and applying various change-options in whatever CAD-Program Rare uses for that ... is definitely a much more fathomable endeavor.

Happy now? I went into detail.

[mod edit]

PS: I raise sails in PvP too my dude, just not always ... I sometimes get into chases you know (and those sometimes even lead through these nasty little things called storms) :P

@funnyqchen said in Dark adventures sails pay to win?:

Are you serious?
Do I really have to answer that?

And if I hear the [mod edit] that "a good Helmsman isn't even often at the Helm" I honestly wonder if the person that says that is just lying or has just no idea.
How about that: I don't want to trouble my crew with trivial stuff (especially in PvP mind you), and (especially in a storm mind you) I'd rather focus full attention on helm for a more enjoyable and more relaxed voyage, that doesn't mean I am "glued" to it, but the Helm is the place of the Helmsman! IT'S IN THE NAME!

I'm not going to teach you what each role is supposed to do and what their priorities are, wrong place.

I doubt there is much you can teach me.
I would never claim to be an absolute SoT master, but someone who deliberately handicaps the ship by not using DA-Sails,
is not exactly someone I see as someone who goes for the win.
No offense ofc. It can be funny to troll the enemy by using Parrot-cannons and such.

And the possibility of better being able to preform this duty is called a QoL-improvement, and a BIG one it is!
Just stop downplaying it. It is so blatantly obvious that these sails are obnoxiously overused.

Yes, they are overused in some parts of the community, either they want to flex how much money they have (lol), or they think they get a major advantage. I think you mean the second group. But the fact is, those sails ain't the reason someone wins or loses. Those sails don't contribute nearly as much as some may believe. Sails are (and should be) often raised a bit or fully anyway.

These are the only 2 groups huh? [mod edit] . These were by far the smallest 2 groups to begin with.
First there are also those that know very well that the pure advantage for pure PvP is not exactly a gamechanger but GUESS WHAT!
EVERY SECOND COUNTS! So they use them anyway! That is called a Tryhard, and believe me ... there are tons of em! They are NOT RARE!
But this is STILL the minority here! Because as I always said, DA-Sails are NOT primarily Tryhard sails my dude.

DA-Sails are first and foremost QoL-Sails! And QoL goes a VERY long way.
That would be the largest and most significant group. The group that uses them for their QoL-Improvement which you DA-Downplayers usually so conveniently ignore.

Don't you dare call this a "me-problem" XD
If you have the choice between something that merely looks good but preforms like ****.
And something that looks average at best but preforms awesome ...
Yeah the choice is no real choice for most logical minded ppl if success is their goal.

The thing is, the difference in use is marginal, you know, mid-mast sails lifted anyway and so on. Like I already said. Normal sails don't perform like ****.

It was just a comparison founded in general logic.
But once again,
EVEN if it is "marginal", which it 100% is not if we take the QoL-improvement into account,
it still seems like they are VERY overused on the larger ships in EVERY skill-ranking beginning at slightly-above-PL.
If you deny that, you either lie or are actually 1-in-a-millilon lucky.
Simple as.

We are here because the DA sails have a stigma that they are such a game changer. Which they are not.

Once again this arrogant claim that us that use the DA-Sails for their "advantage" are just too nooby to know any better and fall for lies as told by me.
This mindset is just so delusional and disrespectful to so many of the m8ts out there.

I will tell you the truth now:
You will not like to hear it.

Most of you that are DA-Downplayers, or even worse DA-Deniers, are just desperately looking for an excuse not to face this issue.
Simple as.

I however am long done with that.
I want it solved.

SRSLY! IT DOESN'T EVEN MATTER HOW SKILLED YOU ARE WHEN THERE IS IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE XD
Just look at it XD²