Lets discuss: Alliance System

  • Tybald
    Marauder
    Insider

    The basics of the alliance system:

    Very basic overview:
    You raise an alliance flag, the other ship agrees. Boom you are in an alliance. You can still shoot/sink each other, but can also raise each other, propose voyages, dig up treasures, etc. In an alliance, if you sell the loot, you get 100% of the treasure value, your alliance gets 50%. With the exception of alliance commendations, other progressions (killing skellies, etc.) don't count. You can also see each other on the map.

    The treasure selling system makes the best use of the alliance as joining up, then going and doing your own separate thing. Alliance servers are the extreme version of this idea. You get credit for what you do, and you get bonus cash for what someone else does.

    On the flip side, it makes "actual" alliances (i.e. joint activities) mostly doomed to failure. Exceptions occur, but at the end of the day, an alliance for a joint activity will leave each side with less of the treasure value than if they have it all (75% value if they split the loot perfectly even), or they can betray for 100% of the loot for themselves.

    That creates the irony of the alliance system. It's better to ally and NOT work together, than it is to ally for the same goal. To top it off, the alliance system requires too much risk to even set up an alliance. (I handled that issue in this thread here: https://www.seaofthieves.com/community/forums/topic/157420/alliance-tokens-a-different-way-to-form-an-alliance)

    But the question open for discussion here is this:

    What function do you think alliances should have in the game? Does the current system really allow for that?

    What would you change about it?

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  • D3ADST1CK
    Vanguard
    Insider
    Founder

    Alliances made more sense when the events were harder and more people = finish quicker. It was an easy way to ensure that dividing loot still gave a decent amount to all parties, but with the way the events are being changed to scale based on crew size this is less important. Alliances are really only about protection and gold farming now. I think they should just remove the gold bonus, or at least limit it to be proximity based or something.

  • WolfManbush
    Champion

    The cheese part of the feature is a major contradiction to risk/reward

    Imo alliances should have had server perks not cheese perks

    Long distance communication options
    bird messaging system

    alliance cosmetics unlocked from many organically formed alliances

    etc

    but it's far too late in the game and alliance cheesing is far too built into the community and activity levels to ever really go back now in a substantive way.

    but something that I am passionate about is that alliance servers should not be nerfed without addressing hopping as well and since they aren't going back on quick action there really isn't a point.

    Alliance servers are only half of the issue in the environment, enabled extreme hopping pvp does more damage to the environment than alliance servers do.

    Enabled meaning that fresh spawns were buffed and buffed to support quick action and no risk taking. That's why it's hypocritical when some of the coordinated hoppers/pvpers are always so fired up about alliance servers.

    If they nerf pve cheese they should nerf pvp cheese

  • LordQulex
    Captain

    There is one important point you missed here, which is you do get emissary bonus when an alliance partner sells your treasure type to your representative.

    But what is the alliance system missing? A real reason to participate. Gold is great and all, but how do I show off that I'm an honorable alliance partner?

    What alliances need are three things: an honor/infamy system, unique cosmetics, and exclusive voyages.

    Attack an honorable ship, you earn infamy. Sink an honorable ship, you earn infamy. Attack an alliance partner, you gain LOADS of infamy.

    Attack an infamous ship, you gain honor. Sink an infamous ship, you gain honor. Money earned by alliance partner earns LOADS of honor. Finish an alliance voyage, earn honor.

    Unique ship cosmetics are unlocked at different levels of your infamy/honor (you know, like what hourglass should have been) so pirates can spot your reputation through the hourglass. Mostly sails and figureheads as those are the most visible. If you're honor drops below some arbitrary number, you can merely equip the "Trusted" sails and not the "Honorable" sails. I guess this sort of requires it to be captaincy milestone?

    There are a few flaws in this design that I'm happy to hear suggestions for.

    First, you are not obligated to don any infamous cosmetic you earn. Sure there will be some pirates that do and revel in it, but there's no way to see another ship's reputation unless they have the cosmetics on.

    I know the last thing SoT needs is another progression track to grind out, but what is this game other than grinding for cosmetics right?

  • Scheneighnay
    Ship Mate

    I don't think the reward for backstabbing is a problem in and of itself. It makes a more interesting dynamic.

    The biggest problem I see is that it's too difficult to start an organic alliance because you aren't given opportunities to build trust.

    An example of a good system we need to see more of is the fleet world event, or at least its old iteration.
    While it's doable in a single ship, it's difficult and you'll probably lose a lot of the loot drops in the process because you're moving around a lot.
    With two ships not only do you break up the fleet, but you get better coverage of the loot before it despawns.
    It's a natural win-win scenario.

    So having more content like the fleet that incentivised alliances would be a good option.

  • LordQulex
    Captain

    @scheneighnay Would be less difficult to get an organic alliance if the ship sailing towards you had the "Most Honorable Corsair" sails and figurehead equipped. They had to let alliance partners earn a million gold or something to unlock them. They probably won't turn on you because if they do they will only be able to equip the "Honorable Buccaneer" sails and figurehead.

    But yes, there needs to be something like the hunting the shrouded ghost adventure or glitter beard or something to encourage good-faith alliance activity. The challenge is it would need more than one ship or more than five pirates to accomplish, and a lot of the player base are solo sloopers for various reasons. Glitterbeard is rare because, whoof, eight pirates needs to coordinate on a server and not murder each other? GLHF

  • Scheneighnay
    Ship Mate

    @lordqulex said in Lets discuss: Alliance System:

    @scheneighnay Would be less difficult to get an organic alliance if the ship sailing towards you had the "Most Honorable Corsair" sails and figurehead equipped. They had to let alliance partners earn a million gold or something to unlock them. They probably won't turn on you because if they do they will only be able to equip the "Honorable Buccaneer" sails and figurehead.

    But yes, there needs to be something like the hunting the shrouded ghost adventure or glitter beard or something to encourage good-faith alliance activity. The challenge is it would need more than one ship or more than five pirates to accomplish, and a lot of the player base are solo sloopers for various reasons. Glitterbeard is rare because, whoof, eight pirates needs to coordinate on a server and not murder each other? GLHF

    Glitterbeard I'm not a fan of, because those alliances are formed by someone running up and saying "hey wanna do glitterbeard?"
    As opposed to fleet alliances, which I've formed by rescuing another ship or having another ship rescue mine.

    That's the kind of opportunity I want to see more of that really makes organic alliances.

  • ManipulateHavoc
    Ship Mate

    As long as the alliance is organically formed through in-game interaction (not some shady Discord) I wouldn’t change anything about the current system. However, adding new stuff to enhance the alliance experience would be cool - just make sure they are balanced.

  • LordQulex
    Captain

    @scheneighnay said in Lets discuss: Alliance System:

    @lordqulex said in Lets discuss: Alliance System:

    @scheneighnay Would be less difficult to get an organic alliance if the ship sailing towards you had the "Most Honorable Corsair" sails and figurehead equipped. They had to let alliance partners earn a million gold or something to unlock them. They probably won't turn on you because if they do they will only be able to equip the "Honorable Buccaneer" sails and figurehead.

    But yes, there needs to be something like the hunting the shrouded ghost adventure or glitter beard or something to encourage good-faith alliance activity. The challenge is it would need more than one ship or more than five pirates to accomplish, and a lot of the player base are solo sloopers for various reasons. Glitterbeard is rare because, whoof, eight pirates needs to coordinate on a server and not murder each other? GLHF

    Glitterbeard I'm not a fan of, because those alliances are formed by someone running up and saying "hey wanna do glitterbeard?"
    As opposed to fleet alliances, which I've formed by rescuing another ship or having another ship rescue mine.

    That's the kind of opportunity I want to see more of that really makes organic alliances.

    There's no such thing as true altruism. If you want players to alliance, you need to encourage them to do so. As this is a game, the way you encourage players to do an activity is with rewards—more specifically gold, experience points, and cosmetics.

    Sorry matey, but I think the "kind of [alliance] opportunity you want to see more of" is a Shrouded Ghost...

  • Tybald
    Marauder
    Insider

    @manipulatehavoc
    I would (per my other thread) introduce a different alliance forming system. One that can be done at a distance, through an exchange of "physical" tokens. Primarily this lets an offer of alliance be done from a safe distance

  • ManipulateHavoc
    Ship Mate

    @tybald Hmmm, that would minimize the risk of alliances. If that form of alliance were exists, then you would also need minimize the gold sharing percentage just to balance it. Unique idea, though.

  • Tybald
    Marauder
    Insider

    @manipulatehavoc
    Not really. The alliance system doesn't change, only the method of formation. There's still a level of closeness, for example, if the token could be shot from the cannon, that would create a sizable safe distance to form from. The same could be with passing an island, and dropping the token off for the other ship to pick up. What it does is require a bit-more coordination, but doesn't require the ships to get super close to form the alliance.

  • TheLostSentinel
    Marauder
    Insider

    @tybald said in Lets discuss: Alliance System:

    The basics of the alliance system:

    Very basic overview:
    You raise an alliance flag, the other ship agrees. Boom you are in an alliance. You can still shoot/sink each other, but can also raise each other, propose voyages, dig up treasures, etc. In an alliance, if you sell the loot, you get 100% of the treasure value, your alliance gets 50%. With the exception of alliance commendations, other progressions (killing skellies, etc.) don't count. You can also see each other on the map.

    The treasure selling system makes the best use of the alliance as joining up, then going and doing your own separate thing. Alliance servers are the extreme version of this idea. You get credit for what you do, and you get bonus cash for what someone else does.

    On the flip side, it makes "actual" alliances (i.e. joint activities) mostly doomed to failure. Exceptions occur, but at the end of the day, an alliance for a joint activity will leave each side with less of the treasure value than if they have it all (75% value if they split the loot perfectly even), or they can betray for 100% of the loot for themselves.

    That creates the irony of the alliance system. It's better to ally and NOT work together, than it is to ally for the same goal. To top it off, the alliance system requires too much risk to even set up an alliance. (I handled that issue in this thread here: https://www.seaofthieves.com/community/forums/topic/157420/alliance-tokens-a-different-way-to-form-an-alliance)

    But the question open for discussion here is this:

    What function do you think alliances should have in the game? Does the current system really allow for that?

    What would you change about it?

    Good points have been made. Yes, if your Alliance is doing the same task, which is to say, a Skeleton Fort. Yes, that is a 75% value of evenly split loot. However, if your alliance is split up, doing different tasks on their own, then you are getting 100% of the loot you would get normally, plus 50% of the loot for tasks you're not even engaging or taking part in. This is generally why Alliance servers exist, is if everybody is doing whatever they want at the same time, everyone is benefitting from an extra 50% of loot from multiple crews that are doing separate tasks.

    So I agree in that regard, it does make it odd that having a well functioning and true "Alliance" with somebody is basically saying "We're working together, but separately" vs. "We're working together". They might defend one another, sure, but it's kind of weird that that is the most efficient use of the Alliance system. I would have to sit and mull this one over for a bit, because I don't think I could come up with a solid answer for this in a few minutes.

  • BurnBacon
    Vanguard
    Insider

    What function do you think alliances should have in the game? Does the current system really allow for that?

    What would you change about it?

    • it has the function ingame already. Join up together with other crews.

    • yes

    • nothing really. It not perfect and also balanced enough.

    The only thing I can think of if it was even possible, fix alliance servers.

  • Tybald
    Marauder
    Insider

    @burnbacon said in Lets discuss: Alliance System:

    What function do you think alliances should have in the game? Does the current system really allow for that?

    What would you change about it?

    • it has the function ingame already. Join up together with other crews.

    • yes

    • nothing really. It not perfect and also balanced enough.

    The only thing I can think of if it was even possible, fix alliance servers.

    Honestly, you "fix" alliance server (for the most part) by capping alliance members. (Say, 3 ships max).

  • LordQulex
    Captain

    @tybald said in Lets discuss: Alliance System:

    Honestly, you "fix" alliance server (for the most part) by capping alliance members. (Say, 3 ships max).

    I honestly feel this is a good solution, but it will never happen. I like the idea of three ships in an alliance stacking FOTDs, and that one sweaty galleon thinking, "I can take 'em!" and trying. Sounds like good fun in my book. But...

    The Good:
    Gets people out of alliance servers and back into the seas with the rest of us. More players is more better.

    The Bad:
    Many alliance server only players will leave the game. Don't know how many, but we all know this is true.

    The Ugly:
    Pirates on alliance servers love their emporium cosmetics. Rare doesn't want to lose double digit percentages of them cause then they stop buying fancy threads.

  • Scheneighnay
    Ship Mate

    @lordqulex said in Lets discuss: Alliance System:

    @tybald said in Lets discuss: Alliance System:

    Honestly, you "fix" alliance server (for the most part) by capping alliance members. (Say, 3 ships max).

    I honestly feel this is a good solution, but it will never happen. I like the idea of three ships in an alliance stacking FOTDs, and that one sweaty galleon thinking, "I can take 'em!" and trying. Sounds like good fun in my book. But...

    The Good:
    Gets people out of alliance servers and back into the seas with the rest of us. More players is more better.

    The Bad:
    Many alliance server only players will leave the game. Don't know how many, but we all know this is true.

    The Ugly:
    Pirates on alliance servers love their emporium cosmetics. Rare doesn't want to lose double digit percentages of them cause then they stop buying fancy threads.

    I don't think this will fix alliance servers, it'll just make them less efficient than they are now. Not really a problem one way or the other.

    You just end up with 2 alliances that don't fight on one server.

  • LordQulex
    Captain

    @scheneighnay Good point. 👍

  • Tybald
    Marauder
    Insider

    @scheneighnay
    Honestly, it was my thought too, but it complicates the forming of a server.

  • PithyRumble
    Sailor
    Insider

    I think the alliance system is fine the way it is. I typically sail with my "buddy flag" up but rarely get any takers.

    Probably doesn't help that I haul keel if anyone points their ship my way either lol.

  • Scheneighnay
    Ship Mate

    @pithyrumble said in Lets discuss: Alliance System:

    I think the alliance system is fine the way it is. I typically sail with my "buddy flag" up but rarely get any takers.

    Probably doesn't help that I haul keel if anyone points their ship my way either lol.

    Pretty much the only time I raise first is if I'm at a siren shrine, as a way of saying "just raise and leave me alone and you get a cut"

  • CoffeeLight5545
    Legend
    Insider

    The alliance system is fine just the way it is.

    People seem to think that if you remove the alliance system you will destroy the server alliance discords. Unfortunately this isn’t true. The server alliances farm gold but more than that, they provide a safe PvP free environment. Removing the gold farm from alliance servers will only create a PvP free environment where they can’t earn a lot of gold. If you consider the worst case scenario, players would still choose a PvP free environment so they don’t have to look over their shoulders and can earn a decent amount of gold without interruptions.

    Personally I don’t understand why people want alliance servers destroyed. How is their play style affecting their own? All the cosmetics are just visual skins that offer no strategic value. If having millions in gold gave you an in game advantage then I would understand people wanting alliance servers banned

  • WolfManbush
    Champion

    @coffeelight5545 said in Lets discuss: Alliance System:

    The alliance system is fine just the way it is.

    People seem to think that if you remove the alliance system you will destroy the server alliance discords. Unfortunately this isn’t true. The server alliances farm gold but more than that, they provide a safe PvP free environment. Removing the gold farm from alliance servers will only create a PvP free environment where they can’t earn a lot of gold. If you consider the worst case scenario, players would still choose a PvP free environment so they don’t have to look over their shoulders and can earn a decent amount of gold without interruptions.

    Personally I don’t understand why people want alliance servers destroyed. How is their play style affecting their own? All the cosmetics are just visual skins that offer no strategic value. If having millions in gold gave you an in game advantage then I would understand people wanting alliance servers banned

    There was a substantive case to make when cosmetics switched from cheap to expensive which made gold actually relevant in the game. That's the point it would have made sense to try to maintain some sort of significance in the game

    The main pushes to try to disband server alliances now are more rooted in beef between some pvpers and alliance servers.
    Some pvpers got themselves in trouble in alliance servers and that grew and it got twitch communities involved which just makes it louder.

    Significance is so far gone that really they aren't gonna ever do much to recover it.

    The main negative effect of alliance servers in current time is that they have a long history of nerfing players that play organically specifically because of the cheesing that alliance servers are doing, example: killed off appeal for new content like commodities because of alliance cheesing.

    Maybe season 9 will convince them that nerfing the organic environment production based on server alliance cheesing is counter productive, because it is.

  • Lem0n Curry
    Vanguard
    Insider

    @coffeelight5545 said in Lets discuss: Alliance System:

    The alliance system is fine just the way it is.

    People seem to think that if you remove the alliance system you will destroy the server alliance discords. Unfortunately this isn’t true. The server alliances farm gold but more than that, they provide a safe PvP free environment. Removing the gold farm from alliance servers will only create a PvP free environment where they can’t earn a lot of gold. If you consider the worst case scenario, players would still choose a PvP free environment so they don’t have to look over their shoulders and can earn a decent amount of gold without interruptions.

    You earn on the average already more gold when you don't have the possibility to have other crews around to steal or interfere otherwise anyway - removing (most of) the multiplier on that doesn't seem wrong to me.

    Perhaps having gold less as an incentive to join and play for hours on a PvE Alliance server, will make them join an actual Adventure server instead.

    Personally I don’t understand why people want alliance servers destroyed. How is their play style affecting their own? All the cosmetics are just visual skins that offer no strategic value. If having millions in gold gave you an in game advantage then I would understand people wanting alliance servers banned

    Tell that to the players who'll just miss out on Emissary rewards tomorrow because all those PvE Allianve Server members who raise their emissary are in the highest tier.

    IMO as long as Rare continues not to interfere with pre made PvE Alliance servers, all their talk about this is a game with a possibility of PvP - we don't intent to create PvE servers seems to be misleading to some degree, this was even worse when they had those discords on their website years ago.

  • Scheneighnay
    Ship Mate

    @lem0n-curry yeah, alliance servers hurt everyone who goes for the ledger on a public server.

    But ultimately changing up the alliance system shouldn't have an impact on alliance servers either way.

  • Tybald
    Marauder
    Insider

    @coffeelight5545 said in Lets discuss: Alliance System:

    The alliance system is fine just the way it is.

    People seem to think that if you remove the alliance system you will destroy the server alliance discords. Unfortunately this isn’t true. The server alliances farm gold but more than that, they provide a safe PvP free environment. Removing the gold farm from alliance servers will only create a PvP free environment where they can’t earn a lot of gold. If you consider the worst case scenario, players would still choose a PvP free environment so they don’t have to look over their shoulders and can earn a decent amount of gold without interruptions.

    Personally I don’t understand why people want alliance servers destroyed. How is their play style affecting their own? All the cosmetics are just visual skins that offer no strategic value. If having millions in gold gave you an in game advantage then I would understand people wanting alliance servers banned

    Honestly, this thread isn't about alliance servers. They are their own oddity that I'm not concerned with. People will do what they do. If changes here strengthen them? Who cares, but by that same token...I don't care if any changes here wreck them either. Generally, I consider them about as close to an exploit without going over one as possible, but one that has no real impact on the rest of people who play the game.

    I'm just asking about the alliance system itself, as seen by people who play the game as envisioned.
    I see two major issues with alliance as they currently exist:

    1. Forming an alliance can be very difficult, due to the proximity needed, and the overall (deserved) lack of trust that exists in the game.
    2. The current structure of an alliance actually makes it more optimal to join and not interact than to actually ally and work together.

    I think there are easy solutions for #1. I'm not as positive on #2. I think #2 is best served by only providing the 50% cut to crews in the alliance that can be reasonably said to be taking part in a particular activity. Though, atm I'm not sure how to go about solving that particular issue in game. The goal would be to focus alliances on actual allying for a particular purpose, as opposed to merely sailing under a common flag.

    Is #2 a complaint about alliance servers? No. It's merely a different vision for the purpose of an alliance. I see alliances serving the purpose of teaming up to overcome an obstacle, and want the alliance to support that vision MORE than it supports alliances not interacting.

  • Devtryak
    Marauder

    I feel like the for the treasure value system, each ship should get either 100% or 75% of what that treasure is worth so that joint activities are more profitable. Maybe they should make it to where the ship's can like merge their ships and make a mega ship (JK LOL no).

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