Please increase the amount of alligamce gained whem losing within the higher lvls. I'm lvl 59 Guardians and when I lose I get maybe 1/10 of a lvl and it's super demotivating. Just a slight increase so that it still feels worthwhile would be very much appreciated!!
Hourglass PvP Losses
@davedachicken21 make sure to play during the gold and glory weekends. Also rare is having another community weekend soon for the anniversary of year 5. Those weekend events award double xp and sometimes more!
@davedachicken21 players should receive no allegiance gain when they lose in my opinion. You don’t get gold hoarder rep gain when another crew hands in one of your chests.
A nice QoL change for me regarding losses would be the loot value multiplier used in defensive also applies to the loss value. This would really help players who are struggling and encourage them to take part in the shared world rather than diving constantly. I would certainly play like this if it was the case and continue taking part in hourglass even past rank 100.
@amazingjables if this was the case imagine how fast the mode would die out though. Making losses more rewarding would make me (and possibly others) stick with it more consistently ensuring a healthier matchmaking pool
@amazingjables counterpoint: you always got rep no matter what place you came in arena, more for 1st ofc but even if you were 5th, you still got some.
@vito1700 a dit dans Hourglass PvP Losses :
@davedachicken21 make sure to play during the gold and glory weekends. Also rare is having another community weekend soon for the anniversary of year 5. Those weekend events award double xp and sometimes more!
Do people realize there are abbout 30 pages full of threads asking allegiance to be boosted ?
Do people realise they're actually telling players to wait for certain week-ends to be able to enjoy playing ?
This is what HG has become. "Hey, come over next w-e, maybe you'll have a bit of fun"
@davedachicken21 said in Hourglass PvP Losses:
Please increase the amount of alligamce gained whem losing within the higher lvls. I'm lvl 59 Guardians and when I lose I get maybe 1/10 of a lvl and it's super demotivating. Just a slight increase so that it still feels worthwhile would be very much appreciated!!
My previous suggestion on this was to follow Elo. The Elo rating system works out the odds of each side winning: 85/15, 30/70, 50/50, etc... If your E value is 30 and your opponent's is 70, then they are 40% more likely to win and you should get 40% more allegiance when losing and they should get 40% less for winning. Bunny thumping shouldn't be rewarded. Inversely, you should get 40% more allegiance for beating them and they should get 40% less for losing to someone with much loser MMR.
The challenge is and always will be player participation. This only works if there is a large enough player pool to get everyone close to a 50/50 match. Hourglass simply isn't popular enough to have that level of player participation, so lopsided battles will always be a thing.
@amazingjables said in Hourglass PvP Losses:
@davedachicken21 players should receive no allegiance gain when they lose in my opinion. You don’t get gold hoarder rep gain when another crew hands in one of your chests.
Can you give me three examples of contemporary games where the loser gets nothing at all? That's a really great way to alienate your players and ensure you have zero player base.
@lordqulex It's a full loot game. Rust would be another example of a full loot game where the loser gets nothing if they lose, I guess. You should receive MORE rep when you win and zero if you lose.
@a10dr4651 "rather than diving constantly"
If no one dives the feature is over. Making defense pay too much is the fastest way I can think of to kill off the feature.
@amazingjables said in Hourglass PvP Losses:
@davedachicken21 players should receive no allegiance gain when they lose in my opinion. You don’t get gold hoarder rep gain when another crew hands in one of your chests.
The problem is the feature is not really fun due to cheats and other cheese moves, the rewards are too few and take too much time.
IMHO the real fix is not to reward more but to fix the things that make the feature a chore rather than actually fun.
Granted for people who don't really like PvP it will always be a chore, but for those that like PvP it should be fun and it is not.
@foambreaker I doubt it would. Those who are focussed more on PvP or want instant PvP on demand will dive. Those who want a mixture of PvP, organic gameplay with greater risk and some PvE added in would go defensive. Right now though there is pretty much zero reason to go defensive.
@a10dr4651 said in Hourglass PvP Losses:
@foambreaker I doubt it would. Those who are focussed more on PvP or want instant PvP on demand will dive. Those who want a mixture of PvP, organic gameplay with greater risk and some PvE added in would go defensive. Right now though there is pretty much zero reason to go defensive.
100% agree. Defensive is probably my preferred playstyle if it were worth it. Go do some PVE, guarantee some PVP, love the sound of that. But due to uncontrollable factors I've gone hours and days without being invaded. I can grind my way up to level 5 but when I lose I still get the allegiance of if I had just spent three minutes to dive. And after level 100 I simply don't want any of the rewards. Those need to be fixed before I begin to defend faction treasury.
@a10dr4651 said in Hourglass PvP Losses:
@foambreaker I doubt it would. Those who are focussed more on PvP or want instant PvP on demand will dive. Those who want a mixture of PvP, organic gameplay with greater risk and some PvE added in would go defensive. Right now though there is pretty much zero reason to go defensive.
Ok first, pirating is about getting paid, loot. Non-Profit Piracy is not a thing :)
If you make the defense pay significantly more, everyone will defend, because pie rats want to get paid the most they can.
If that happens the feature is over. Even if the ratio falls to 5 defending 1 diving, the wait times would be in the range of hours. In order for the queue to function there must be equal or greater numbers of divers. That is a math limitation that comes with the defense vs dive concept.
This is why it is especially important that the extra rewards for defense not be tied to non-fight based actives, like farming loot while waiting. Because then the change simultaneously increases the defense wait time, pays the defense for not fighting and kills the feature due to the ratio falling out of place.
I can see the reward model changing, it is not great now, but the changes have to keep an eye on the ratio of defenders to divers.
I think I understand your logic here, but I can only talk from the experience of Rust because I haven't played Tarkov.
There are some big differences between SoT HG and Rust. Rust is a persistent open world crafting sandbox game that is full loot because you can raid by base or my sleeping body and steal the stuff I've taken time to collect. SoT hourglass is epsodic not persistent, in a bubble not open world, and hardly full loot because when I dive to invade I don't take loot with me.
Envision your ideal hourglass match. Good volleys, good plays, satisfying tug-of-war pace, and probably less than 30 minutes. Rust is not episodic, it's long-play survival. There is no match-based game like Fall Guys, or Overwatch, or DotA 2, that reward the loser nothing. It's simply not contemporary game design.
@foambreaker said in Hourglass PvP Losses:
@a10dr4651 said in Hourglass PvP Losses:
@foambreaker I doubt it would. Those who are focussed more on PvP or want instant PvP on demand will dive. Those who want a mixture of PvP, organic gameplay with greater risk and some PvE added in would go defensive. Right now though there is pretty much zero reason to go defensive.
Ok first, pirating is about getting paid, loot. Non-Profit Piracy is not a thing :)
If you make the defense pay significantly more, everyone will defend, because pie rats want to get paid the most they can.
If that happens the feature is over. Even if the ratio falls to 5 defending 1 diving, the wait times would be in the range of hours. In order for the queue to function there must be equal or greater numbers of divers. That is a math limitation that comes with the defense vs dive concept.
This is why it is especially important that the extra rewards for defense not be tied to non-fight based actives, like farming loot while waiting. Because then the change simultaneously increases the defense wait time, pays the defense for not fighting and kills the feature due to the ratio falling out of place.
I can see the reward model changing, it is not great now, but the changes have to keep an eye on the ratio of defenders to divers.
That's blatantly not true. No one is defending now because it's not worth it, and there are tons of PVP'er out there playing submarine. Increasing the reward for defending will convince PVEVP'ers like me to vote hourglass and defend instead of mindlessly grinding out dive after dive after dive. I would play like I cared if I won or lost because I have more to gain from winning, instead of simply hyper-aggressively attacking my opponent hoping they sink before I do (most of my matches end with a double sink because my goal is simply to sink them first). It would raise the tide for both risk and reward in the game and be more engaging.
Perhaps some people would switch from invading to defending, and I'm not saying to reward a dozen levels for grade five faction treasury, but it needs to be buffed mate. Nobody is doing it because it's crazy inefficient.
Like everything else it's supply and demand. There will always be pirates who prefer to invade rather than attack, but there are pirates looking for allegiance efficiency that will flock toward which ever is more rewarding. I know that vaguely saying "don't cross that line" isn't terribly helpful, but there's got to be a balance and right now the meta is invading. Defending needs to be an equal choice, not a bad one.
@Foambreaker I think you're overestimating how many PvP'ers will switch to defensive. I'm fighting in HG regularly, most of my opponents have the curses. I really don't think they are going to spend time collecting loot when they are in that mode solely for the PvP. The PvP'ers who are winning frequently already don't take advantage of the loot bonus to allegiance already on offer. If they don't work towards that boost with the confidence they have of winning, they certainly won't do so if they receive a bonus for a loss also. This change would benefit the PvPvE players with a reward for taking on risk for opting in for PvP and still allowing them to take part in the shared adventure varying there play session.
@lordqulex "No one is defending now because it's not worth it"
Why not, it pays the same, plus you get to choose the location and you get to keep any loot you have.
People dive versus not, given the rewards being equal, for all kinds of reasons. Currently I am grinding Reapers, I dive because I hope the new server will have a chest that is closer, or a target. But if the reward was different I would go for the most rewards because I can always hop for chests.
@foambreaker said in Hourglass PvP Losses:
@lordqulex "No one is defending now because it's not worth it"
Why not, it pays the same, plus you get to choose the location and you get to keep any loot you have.
People dive versus not, given the rewards being equal, for all kinds of reasons. Currently I am grinding Reapers, I dive because I hope the new server will have a chest that is closer, or a target. But if the reward was different I would go for the most rewards because I can always hop for chests.
Do you defend? I'm assuming by "pays the same" you mean in gold not in allegiance. No one who wants gold raises hourglass, it's not worth the risk (you only keep the loot you have if you win). No one who wants allegiance is defending, because it's inefficient.
Because turning in grade 5 faction treasury nets you less allegiance than a win, and takes substantially longer to obtain. On top of that, I have gotten grade 5 and sat in the open sea for HOURS waiting to be invaded. The matching engine seems to prioritize matching invaders with invaders, anecdotally, or there are no defenders to invade. I think maybe one in every fifteen matches or so I invade a defender? But most of the time they have no treasure or were trying to vote down the hourglass at an outpost...
If you can get as much allegiance defending as invading, I'd love to hear how. I haven't been able to figure out how.
The point of grade 5 treasure isnt turning it in, its a boost PER win. You get grade 5 and defend it going for killstreak + treasure bonus.
The problem is currently defending just doesnt seem to trigger as often, so you spend 15 to 30+ mjnutes waiting for a fight, whereas the diver gets back into the action as fast as they can.
Whatever rep difference there is PER WIN is lost in the amount of matches played in the same amount of time
If they simply locked HG rep at 1 win at full killstreak = 1 level and 1 loss is current rep boost PER KILLSTREAK I think that would fit a bit more in effort given out.
That way youde always gain 1/4 1/2 1/3 1 level per win on offense, with defending gaining the same in Treasure grade on top of that, so a 4 killstreak 5 treasure grade win would be 2 levels.
A loss at full streak would be about a solid half a level or so.
What do you guys think? All of a sudden lvl 100 isnt 175 sinks and 200 losses to gain, its around half that.
@foambreaker said in Hourglass PvP Losses:
@a10dr4651 "rather than diving constantly"
Making defense pay too much is the fastest way I can think of to kill off the feature.
Defender is slow and methodical with 20 minute cool downs between fights.
Diving allows back to back fights
The 2 methods CAN exist together but they both need to be worthwhile.
As it stands, only diving is a viable method of leveling up atm
@paparug420 said in Hourglass PvP Losses:
@foambreaker said in Hourglass PvP Losses:
@a10dr4651 "rather than diving constantly"
Making defense pay too much is the fastest way I can think of to kill off the feature.
Defender is slow and methodical with 20 minute cool downs between fights.
Diving allows back to back fights
The 2 methods CAN exist together but they both need to be worthwhile.
As it stands, only diving is a viable method of leveling up atm
And the problem there is the cooldown, making defense reward more for less battles is not a solution, making defense have more battles is.
Really, the rewards could be bumped for both.
Which is actually the topic of the thread, the defense discussion is a hyjack :)
@ajm123 said in Hourglass PvP Losses:
@lordqulex you can try to win and still lose
Then you did not win. 😉🤣
@davedachicken21 said in Hourglass PvP Losses:
@amazingjables if this was the case imagine how fast the mode would die out though. Making losses more rewarding would make me (and possibly others) stick with it more consistently ensuring a healthier matchmaking pool
Until you have the curse, then chances are you leave anyways. I’m almost not against no win/no rep
@amazingjables big difference is this isn't gold hoarder it's a completely separate element it's a faction yes but the way you gain rep is completely different. Curses should only be locked behind a pvp wall if it doesn't take weeks of pvp to unlock. Losing and getting rep is a way for Rare to keep players online.
@zig-zag-ltu a dit dans Hourglass PvP Losses :
Tbh if the reward was like 1-3 per win and at least 0.5/1 per loss, and the curse was at level 150-200 or so, nobody would make these topics - change my opinion
Definitely agreed.
Just make the same system but with a different twist to it and everyone will be OK.
Just see what they did with Warcraft. They wanted to encourage players to take ssome time off the game and touch some grass at one point. They decided to nerf XP in prolonged sessions. Community reaction : outrage.
They eventually did the SAME system, but twist the narrative and some UI so it wasn't "a nerf of XP for continous playing", more "a boost when logging on after a time off". Community reaction : they adopted and loved the system.
1 out of 33
