The Loss Farming Fallacy

I am yet to meet one ( I don't play the hourglass much tho )

And if they want to exclusively do it to reach level 100, well that's on them.

I really don't understand the constant attention to these players and why would it matter? XP for loosing surely could be better, regardless if the loss was intentional or not. Besides you guys saw there are commendations for having 10 wins in a row, good luck achieving that against try hards, you will surely run into someone who is better than you and you won't mind to meet one of those farmers.

@LordQulex I am sure you were happy with those 4 free wins.

Let people be and let them play how they want, there are bigger issues than that.

P.S. If the community really wants to get rid of loss farmers, here is a suggestion. It's super clear that they are only doing it for the curses. So you should nag Rare to add other highly sought after exclusive items like Obsidian, perhaps arena or whatever people want for higher levels of hourglass 150 - 500, heck fill it up all the way to 1000.
Increase the XP gains for loosing until level 100 significantly and this 'problem' will solve itself out quickly.

@lordqulex I guess that makes sense.

But imagine if you spent all that time yesterday in a Brig or Galleon. I'm sure you would have had a lot more fun in wins and losses. (Maybe you were having a time of your life, I am just assuming you were a bit bored apart from gathering statistics)

I believe these loss farmers are usually solo players. I would bet a million (in game) that such instances for Brigs/Galleons rarely ever happen at all.

So I would not be surprised that a lot of people are like me and don't enjoy the 1v1 combat that much. For me personally PVP on Brig/Galleon is like driving on a motorway compared to 1v1 is like driving in London(or any other metropolis) - stress.

In a brig I fire cannons, board the enemy, help with bailing and if I get the chance fix a plank or two.

In a solo sloop I feel like pulling out my hair when I need to do 100 things in 1 minute. I don't ever see myself becoming like Blurbs, calm, happy face multitasking like a maniac.

Although for players like him and thousands of others, 1v1 is very important to maintain. Personally I would prefer a lot more to have improved open crew for this particular game mode.

@lordqulex I agree. The allegiance gains yesterday felt balanced and it should be the norm. Like you, I played all day and only encountered one loss farmer that wanted to roll a D20. Everyone else seemed to be good faith PVPers. The rep from losing a battle wasn't as punishing as normal and it felt good regardless of the outcome. When my crew sank, we weren't as demoralized and we're more inclined to jump into the next battle. The rep gains felt more inline with how arena felt.

@lordqulex said in The Loss Farming Fallacy:

[ ... ] And yes, all the loss farmers I encountered we solo slooping. [ ... ]

So shouldn't you use the time spend / number of "fights" when you solo slooped to have some meaningful numbers, instead of including time spend on a brigantine as well ?

@zig-zag-ltu a dit dans The Loss Farming Fallacy :

So I would not be surprised that a lot of people are like me and don't enjoy the 1v1 combat that much. For me personally PVP on Brig/Galleon is like driving on a motorway compared to 1v1 is like driving in London(or any other metropolis) - stress.

In a brig I fire cannons, board the enemy, help with bailing and if I get the chance fix a plank or two.

In a solo sloop I feel like pulling out my hair when I need to do 100 things in 1 minute. I don't ever see myself becoming like Blurbs, calm, happy face multitasking like a maniac.

Wow really ?

I guess it must depends on youur personality and people you play with (my friends went away from SoT with s8) but it's the opposite for me.

I find it WAY more stressful and difficult when I'm not in charge of everything because there are too many variables. At least on solo sloop battles I can know where the ENTIRE opposing crew is and doing what.

And sailing on a motorway means SPEED, damn on duo sloops and brigs already I feel like I miss 30 more fingers and half-second reflexes all the time ^^

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Back to the topic,

I didn't encounter more loss farmers (nor less) than usual. Definitely LESS runners though (although I can see the "we have only 24h I'm not gonna start running this time" attitude playing a part, maybe).

All in favor to keep the rewards at the level they were yesterday (for both losses and wins). It can only benefit the mode as it really seemed it drove good faith particiipation and encouraged the least willing to at least give it a try.

It even gave me confidence enough to try and manage (at the 3rd try though) to become a champion ship for the 1st time as a solo.

@jolly-ol-yep I know what you mean and I guess it's what it is. I just find the bigger fights more chaotic and try to use it to my advantage if I can. Where as in sloops its really difficult to surprise your opponent/s, with anything really. Also on brig there is someone on the helm, there is someone in the bilge and I can do what I feel I do best in fights - fight. Instead of focusing on everything. Idk it's just me maybe.

Also the nerf for chainshots really does not make any sense sloop v sloop. But with bigger ships if you hit their mast it goes down and I feel like back in 2020 chainshots were the meta to win the fight.
Apologies for off topic.

@zig-zag-ltu a dit dans The Loss Farming Fallacy :

@jolly-ol-yep I know what you mean and I guess it's what it is. I just find the bigger fights more chaotic and try to use it to my advantage if I can. Where as in sloops its really difficult to surprise your opponent/s, with anything really.

I really do play 99.99 % of my time soloing so I'm biased here. But youu'd be surprised how easy it is to disturb a solo sloop fight by just doing anything that goes against the "meta". Yesterday I found a cool firework I never saw. I just fired it at the beginning of the fight. My opponent just stopped his ship, and explained to me after the fight he thought I wanted to roll a dice or something. Or something that I first did by mistake : a solo slooper is gonna confused as hell if you crash into a nearby island, leaving your ship with a tier 1 hole, then proceed to swim to theirs with a found keg....

Also the nerf for chainshots really does not make any sense sloop v sloop. But with bigger ships if you hit their mast it goes down and I feel like back in 2020 chainshots were the meta to win the fight.

I don't know really. Some solo fight would really only last 30 seconds then. I'm kinda used to it. And breaking the mast still kinda is the meta in solo sloop games where you're both bad at close combat quarter and way better at naval (my case. And me vs people like me is a nightmare. No way to secure a sink vs an average-competent players other than really fill his ship with tier-3 holes, since you're only safe boarding if you're consistently better than your opponent at close range)

It DOES feel so overpowered vs bigger ships though, i agree.

Apologies for off topic.

Same ;)

@jolly-ol-yep Hmm thanks for the idea, I always wanted to try my beloved kegs in this mode just never found a good opportunity ^^

Also, I need to try this firework tactic. Apologies for honest members of community, I have been betrayed so many times in this game and people who would drop my guard down with 'hey we are friendly' and then proceed to spawncamp me.
So yeah, if someone is not on my pre made crew with a green nickname - I don't believe them. And honestly I don't believe that if I did the d20 and won that they would just allow me to win, I would get blundered and they would use that time to spam cannons. So yeah if Fireworks can work as a distraction for some good opening shots, I shall try it xD

@zig-zag-ltu a dit dans The Loss Farming Fallacy :

@jolly-ol-yep Hmm thanks for the idea, I always wanted to try my beloved kegs in this mode just never found a good opportunity ^^

Yeah ^^ As a master skeleton exploder I love keg plays. I'm happy I could do a couple since they added the new fights locations or when people defended (found one guy who had one ON his ship once while boarding, which somehow didn't blow up after shots were fired, couldn't be happier )

And honestly I don't believe that if I did the d20 and won that they would just allow me to win, I would get blundered and they would use that time to spam cannons. So yeah if Fireworks can work as a distraction for some good opening shots, I shall try it xD

There ARE deceivers and bad sportsmanship amongst dice rollers. When I find one and I'm not grade V or in a streak, I usually go for it, it's cool, but happened to me once that I rolled a 20 right off the bat. The dude began to explain to me that "y'know, since you have the curse on already you could be cool about it man...." without even trying to roll one too. Had to chase this one down for 2 hours after I respawned and fixed my ship cause he was also a runner but that was worth it.

Also, don't forget to yell "Oh no, fire ! My only weakness !" when they try to board, fail, and throw a fireball on your ship. Just like the with the other aspects of the game, communication achieve great things, even in this PvP mode. For once, they'll stop assuming you're just a nuisance but aknowledge you're an human being, and can lead to a stop to the most toxic behaviours.

@jester1027 ikr I liked it too. This should be the new normal

@jolly-ol-yep For me toxic is someone who would start flamming something in broken english, or last time I had a guy who was blasting some rubbish techno from his ship, was kind of funny when you think about it, the closer the ship gets the louder the 'boom boom boom' gets...Didnt speak, just played music through his cheap mic, I took it personal and sank him, then told him to shut that stupid music off :D

I was the only loss farmer I saw in my 3 dives...😅

@lordqulex

1. Rare did not tell us the exact boosts, so most didn't know loss farming was as optimal as it was
2. On a day with boosts, many are desperate to get as much reputation/allegiance as possible, so they will do something more risky like playing the mode

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When I was getting towards the end of the lvl 100 grind, I did loss farming over xCloud while I was taking breaks, so I understand why players are doing it.

I think if Rare makes it public that they're multiplying the loss reward by 3, we'll see a lot more loss farming because there's no boost otherwise.

@lordqulex said in The Loss Farming Fallacy:

• Most pirates will continue to be good faith PVP participants even if loss allegiance is increased 200-300%.
• Many pirates have complained and left the game mode because allegiance gains for losses is too small to make the game mode satisfying.
• Ergo, some of the pirates that left the game mode because allegiance gains for losses is too small to make the game mode satisfying will return as good faith PVP participants if loss allegiance is increased 200-300%.

There's a very large piece missing from that chain of logic: Everything else was boosted, too.

People may farm losses during times when they weren't going to actively play, anyway. Community day offered tasty carrots in every department; you can't just assume that loss farmers would continue grinding towards HG rewards when they could be using the chance to get gold, or maybe Hunter's Call rep, or whatever.

@lordqulex said in The Loss Farming Fallacy:

The best reason I've encountered not to reward more allegiance for an hourglass loss is because it would encourage loss farming.

Yes... PvP is a part of the game that a lot of the playerbase are not willing to improve their best strategies and maneuvers on. It frustrates people, especially when poor matchmaking forces them to fight players who have spent up to 4 years hunting down PvE players with loot to lose, succeeding, and fighting even tougher pirates who have become better at defending themselves.

Point is, yes, that's very much going to be the case whether allegiance gets boosted or not. If people don't want to participate in the content the way it was essentially designed, they'll find ways to circumvent it. Only difference is this makes people that want to participate frustrated because if they like PvP more than the grind, they're cheated out of a fight because someone who has a terrible mindset in regards to the existence of the content is not participating in a satisfying way for both parties.

It looks like a loss gave 3-4x the amount of allegiance it usually does, my suggestion would be to make that the standard level of allegiance gain for a loss. I hypothesize hourglass would see a healthy boost in good faith PVP participation in hourglass, which is what would be needed to revitalize the game mode if released alongside the cross stamp match making feature.

"Healthy".

Healthy, would be an ideal world where people who decide to play this game keep an open mind and deal with their losses with pride instead of exhaustion, disappointment, and frustration. I'm fully aware that the efforts in these fights aren't mattering much because you're losing, but that why every single person that's argued against this is recommending to spend time on the hourglass trying to improve, because making the curse the goal while you don't know how to guard your ladders in a PvP encounter is a recipe for disaster, as these forums have shown over the past 2-3 months since Season 8 has released.

Good faith PvP is for people who understand and DEAL with the struggles of PvP. They say GGs, they know where they messed up, and instead of complaining on the SoT Forums expecting a hivemind of people to agree with their fragile state of mind, they make the decision to move on to another activity temporarily, or go back to diving and hope the next match doesn't go too badly.

"Encourage loss farming" isn't a fallacy, it's an expected consequence to rewarding losses. At this point, because of loss allegiance gain, people think it's validating to just not try while they sit in their little bubble of proudness thinking they deserve a cosmetic without going through the struggles other people are having. I'm almost in the camp where losses shouldn't be rewarded period, because at this point, players need to embrace the playstyles some content is intended for.

@nex-stargaze a dit dans The Loss Farming Fallacy :

Healthy, would be an ideal world where people who decide to play this game keep an open mind and deal with their losses with pride instead of exhaustion, disappointment, and frustration.

You really don't get it. We said it many times though. It's not losing that is frustrating, disappointing and exhausting, it's the reward that looks like a slap in the face.

You're talking to video-game players here. Noone have any problems with losing. What is a problem is the reality that it will take those players THOUSANDS of hours to unlock rewards. SoT is not Fortnite. The average player is not a kid who can enjoy playing 12 hours a day.

Look at every post that mentions community day. We had fun. It was awesome. We didn't encounter more loss farmers. Everyone was more relaxed. You know why ? Because the rewards felt RIGHT. It was ENJOYABLE for the 1st time in 2 months. Still a buggy mess of a "competitive" system but ENJOYABLE. This is all we ever wanted. For it to be more enjoyable so people play it. It worked on Saturday. Thay might have come up with the right solution here. People enjoyed it.

Next day it was a pain again. 3 runners in a row and a everyone tense as hell. Really felt like Day and Night to me. Now I'm just grinding some commendations for skelly parts then I won't touch this HG before the next community day.

I'm fully aware that the efforts in these fights aren't mattering much because you're losing, but that why every single person that's argued against this is recommending to spend time on the hourglass trying to improve, because making the curse the goal while you don't know how to guard your ladders in a PvP encounter is a recipe for disaster, as these forums have shown over the past 2-3 months since Season 8 has released.

The good ol' "Git gud" argument. You probably know this one won't get you very far.

Good faith PvP is for people who understand and DEAL with the struggles of PvP. They say GGs, they know where they messed up, and instead of complaining on the SoT Forums expecting a hivemind of people to agree with their fragile state of mind, they make the decision to move on to another activity temporarily, or go back to diving and hope the next match doesn't go too badly.

I manage to do both just fine. Grinded both my curses the hard way, solo. Should I be on the hardcore PvPers' side ? Maybe. It's just beyond me that some people here - and they are the ones listened to by Rare it seems - just fail to grasp what a VIDEO GAME should be : fun, inclusive and accessible. Life is grindy and stressful enough, thanks.

"Encourage loss farming" isn't a fallacy, it's an expected consequence to rewarding losses. sAt this point, because of loss allegiance gain, people think it's validating to just not try while they sit in their little bubble of proudness thinking they deserve a cosmetic without going through the struggles other people are having.

You realise you're talking about maybe 5% of solo sloopers when you say "people" here ?

It's crazy how these 5 people are the main focus of discussions here while ALL the good faith players that are on the losing side have been voicing their suffering and frustration for 2 months. Can they at least have some consideration ? Their losses are your wins. Your levels come from them.

Yes, they shot themselves in the foot here.

Anyone non-top-tier player who played during community day is just gonna wait until next one to touch this mode again. I sure am. Yesterday was a pain too. It really shows that people are more frustrated than ever, seeing what could be done, and toxicity peaked during the last 2 days it seemed, at least for me.

See you then Sea of Thieves. I'm out too. Continue to listen to the no-life kids and make the rest of us your slaves. Im going to games where players are respected.

@magus104 said in The Loss Farming Fallacy:

Like they want the curses to be an exclusive club that makes them feel special and it shouldn't be obtainable any way outside of winning.

/shrug. That's what I want, and I'm certainly not likely to get the curses anytime soon. I like that some things are special. That they're difficult to obtain. That they have meaning. Those features are what makes them desirable in the first place.

@eldritchbear a dit dans The Loss Farming Fallacy :

@magus104 said in The Loss Farming Fallacy:

Like they want the curses to be an exclusive club that makes them feel special and it shouldn't be obtainable any way outside of winning.

/shrug. That's what I want, and I'm certainly not likely to get the curses anytime soon. I like that some things are special. That they're difficult to obtain. That they have meaning. Those features are what makes them desirable in the first place.

They don't tell anything else than : "Lost or won, this dude is a no-life and wasted thousands of hours improving cannon aim in a ship video game. Or maybe he cheesed it. Or bought levels on Chinese eBay"

That's what the curses mean and tell anyone. Like ANY cosmetic in this game. Sorry to disrupt the legendary pirate fantasy.

The gatekeepers are actually little kids trying to reproduce that Gandalf scene in their garden. You really want to be seen like that ?

@jolly-ol-yep said in The Loss Farming Fallacy:

@eldritchbear a dit dans The Loss Farming Fallacy :

@magus104 said in The Loss Farming Fallacy:

Like they want the curses to be an exclusive club that makes them feel special and it shouldn't be obtainable any way outside of winning.

/shrug. That's what I want, and I'm certainly not likely to get the curses anytime soon. I like that some things are special. That they're difficult to obtain. That they have meaning. Those features are what makes them desirable in the first place.

They don't tell anything else than : "Lost or won, this dude is a no-life and wasted thousands of hours improving cannon aim in a ship video game. Or maybe he cheesed it. Or bought levels on Chinese eBay"

That's what the curses mean and tell anyone. Like ANY cosmetic in this game. Sorry to disrupt the legendary pirate fantasy.

The gatekeepers are actually little kids trying to reproduce that Gandalf scene in their garden. You really want to be seen like that ?

Counter-question - do you want to be seen as the bitter, entitled dude that degrades others' accomplishments and attempts to belittle those that did earn them (with some far fetched fantasies included at that - buying "levels on Chinese eBay"??? C'mon Man!), just because you are not up to the task of earning them yourself?

Your whole argument is based on your own sense of entitlement and seek to cover that by accusing others who want some sort of accomplishment behind the achievement of "gatekeeping" and using tired insults on those that have earned them to attempt to bolster your own narrative. Not a good look at all dude!

Ironic isn't it.