Cancel/Re-start reload animation on taking damage (Doublegun nerf)

I've always used a sword and I've never really seen the issue with any of the weapons outside of hit reg issues/performance issues

the really really skilled double gunners are gonna take me out no matter what, as they should

the skilled ones it'll be a toss up

If I have let them on board I have already messed up a huge chunk of the battle.

I never view it as them winning because of 2 guns or quick swapping or any of that, I view it as someone won a fight because during that fight they performed better and/or luckier depending on the situation

No. Literally worse than when being hit with a sword prevented you from being able to ADS. The sword is not underpowered at all. Double gun is not overpowered at all. Without exploits and on stable servers, both counter the other.

@targasbr Tight spaces is GREAT for gun actually.

@toxie-will-kill said in Cancel/Re-start reload animation on taking damage (Doublegun nerf):

@scurvywoof sword lunge should not be cancelled by being shot then, right?

They should be. A failed sword lunge can be recovered from because you will usually be able to heal after having it cancelled. This was not the case with being unable to ADS. You simply couldn't deal enough damage to take the pressure off, so you simply died. I believe it also caused eating to cancel within this update too.

If you stupidly use a sword lunge, you deserve to be shot (obviously in-game, not real life).

@targasbr said in Cancel/Re-start reload animation on taking damage (Doublegun nerf):

@kakaroto9766 said in Cancel/Re-start reload animation on taking damage (Doublegun nerf):

@targasbr Tight spaces is GREAT for gun actually.

Fighting an M1 sword spammer on the inside of a sloop is virtually impossible.

Someone doesnt knows blunderbus exists and can 1 shot. While sword takes 4 slashes.

@scurvywoof said in Cancel/Re-start reload animation on taking damage (Doublegun nerf):

@toxie-will-kill said in Cancel/Re-start reload animation on taking damage (Doublegun nerf):

@scurvywoof sword lunge should not be cancelled by being shot then, right?

They should be. A failed sword lunge can be recovered from because you will usually be able to heal after having it cancelled. This was not the case with being unable to ADS. You simply couldn't deal enough damage to take the pressure off, so you simply died. I believe it also caused eating to cancel within this update too.

If you stupidly use a sword lunge, you deserve to be shot (obviously in-game, not real life).

Stupidly using sword lunge = penalised
Stupidly using shots = not-penalised.

makes all the sense...not.

@kakaroto9766 said in Cancel/Re-start reload animation on taking damage (Doublegun nerf):

@scurvywoof said in Cancel/Re-start reload animation on taking damage (Doublegun nerf):

@toxie-will-kill said in Cancel/Re-start reload animation on taking damage (Doublegun nerf):

@scurvywoof sword lunge should not be cancelled by being shot then, right?

They should be. A failed sword lunge can be recovered from because you will usually be able to heal after having it cancelled. This was not the case with being unable to ADS. You simply couldn't deal enough damage to take the pressure off, so you simply died. I believe it also caused eating to cancel within this update too.

If you stupidly use a sword lunge, you deserve to be shot (obviously in-game, not real life).

Stupidly using sword lunge = penalised
Stupidly using shots = not-penalised.

makes all the sense...not.

So, regardless of if I hit a shot, regardless of if it does damage or not, I should literally lose the fight? Because that's what you're suggesting. With your logic, if I double tap you and get hit-regged, I should be penalised?
makes all the sense...not.

@sweetsandman said in Cancel/Re-start reload animation on taking damage (Doublegun nerf):

@kakaroto9766 said in Cancel/Re-start reload animation on taking damage (Doublegun nerf):

@scurvywoof said in Cancel/Re-start reload animation on taking damage (Doublegun nerf):

@toxie-will-kill said in Cancel/Re-start reload animation on taking damage (Doublegun nerf):

@scurvywoof sword lunge should not be cancelled by being shot then, right?

They should be. A failed sword lunge can be recovered from because you will usually be able to heal after having it cancelled. This was not the case with being unable to ADS. You simply couldn't deal enough damage to take the pressure off, so you simply died. I believe it also caused eating to cancel within this update too.

If you stupidly use a sword lunge, you deserve to be shot (obviously in-game, not real life).

Stupidly using sword lunge = penalised
Stupidly using shots = not-penalised.

makes all the sense...not.

I frequently double gun but occasionally switch back to sword to mix it up (or when I get frustrated by hitreg), and I sympathize with that statement when I'm using sword.

Even one pellet of a blunderbuss will cancel your sword lunge.

I think weapon damage should only cancel a sword lunge if more than 40 damage is done in under 1 second.

That way, a pistol shot, EOR shot, two sword slashes, a direct impact blunderbomb, or a cannonball, could cancel it, but a blunderbuss snipe from bow to stern would (likely) not cancel it.

That's a nice work around. It's not unbalanced in any way and wouldn't greatly enhance the sword/ reduce the effectiveness of guns.

@targasbr
Someone doesnt knows hit reg also affects swords. And has different effect on each gun.

@captainbrrr1100 said in Cancel/Re-start reload animation on taking damage (Doublegun nerf):

@kakaroto9766

Double gunning already got a nerf a while ago and to this day it still bothers me. seeing this its laughable how painfully bad I can tell you are.. The sword is not underpowered in any way shape or form Double gunning requires a lot of skill..at least to be good at it now I'm not saying that using the sword doesn't but its certainly much quicker and easier to learn how to use the sword. if double gunning is seriously so overpowered that people constantly cry about it why don't you try to double gun yourself? Probably because you're not good enough too.. So your entire post is just you complaining about your own skill issue.

In my opinion doublegunning is a free pass for noobs. I do agree it requires skill to MASTER (same as the sword + any other gun). But its by far the easiest combination to get good results with little practice. Its very forgiving.

You can make any assumptions you like about my skill. Doesnt really makes any argument about why you think doublegunning is balanced, and you dont even say how it was nerfed.

It only shows you likely have no argument.

I am fairly aware of updates and I do not remember any noteworthy nerf to guns. The only thing that comes to mind is the FIX they made so people could not ABUSE the BUG that allowed them to cancel animations and shoot faster than the weapon was balanced for. Is that what you are calling your HUGE nerf? Patching an abusable bug?

If you have any other arguments feel free to throw them around and Ill engage on examples of doublegun vs other combinations. Or you can keep showing lack of arguments by going ""skillskill idont know you but you likely suck but I am so desperate to keep my guns non nerfed please""

@kakaroto9766 said in Cancel/Re-start reload animation on taking damage (Doublegun nerf):

@captainbrrr1100 said in Cancel/Re-start reload animation on taking damage (Doublegun nerf):

@kakaroto9766

Double gunning already got a nerf a while ago and to this day it still bothers me. seeing this its laughable how painfully bad I can tell you are.. The sword is not underpowered in any way shape or form Double gunning requires a lot of skill..at least to be good at it now I'm not saying that using the sword doesn't but its certainly much quicker and easier to learn how to use the sword. if double gunning is seriously so overpowered that people constantly cry about it why don't you try to double gun yourself? Probably because you're not good enough too.. So your entire post is just you complaining about your own skill issue.

In my opinion doublegunning is a free pass for noobs. I do agree it requires skill to MASTER (same as the sword + any other gun). But its by far the easiest combination to get good results with little practice. Its very forgiving.

You can make any assumptions you like about my skill. Doesnt really makes any argument about why you think doublegunning is balanced, and you dont even say how it was nerfed.

It only shows you likely have no argument.

I am fairly aware of updates and I do not remember any noteworthy nerf to guns. The only thing that comes to mind is the FIX they made so people could not ABUSE the BUG that allowed them to cancel animations and shoot faster than the weapon was balanced for. Is that what you are calling your HUGE nerf? Patching an abusable bug?

If you have any other arguments feel free to throw them around and Ill engage on examples of doublegun vs other combinations. Or you can keep showing lack of arguments by going ""skillskill idont know you but you likely suck but I am so desperate to keep my guns non nerfed please""

You can’t tell captainbrrr he has no arguments when you literally ignored me. I highly doubt that you just so happened to ‘miss’ my post.
Double gun is not hard to learn, but it certainly takes much more skill to use than sword. From the way you talk about double gun, it sounds like you’ve never used it in your life. I’m not saying you haven’t, but it certainly sounds like it.
Double gun is not forgiving in the slightest. You miss your shot and there’s a high chance you die. It’s a glass cannon. All the damage, no defence. You can also get regged. And, unlike what you’ve said, swords barely ever reg. I’ve only had it happen once with the sword, and that was on an entirely different server region. Guns get regged with about 40% of shots you fire. This is usually the fault of the servers, but occasionally the player’s own internet. Server issues with the sword are things like hitting through blocks and mega long swords, rarely ever hit reg.
The nerf people refer to for double gun is indeed the quick swap exploit, as that was what made double gun so OP at the time. Regardless of the fact that it was an exploit, it’s removal was still a nerf to double gun, albeit a necessary one.
I hope you respond to this post. I would like to continue our conversation.

@targasbr said in Cancel/Re-start reload animation on taking damage (Doublegun nerf):

Its hard to tell without knowing the code. But I am fairly certain Sniper is less likely to be affected by hit reg than sword given the lack of animation (shot is immediate) and range (Sniper can hit anything in a way bigger area than sword, so character movements are less likely to affect it).

@scurvywoof said in Cancel/Re-start reload animation on taking damage (Doublegun nerf):
Double gun is not forgiving in the slightest. You miss your shot and there’s a high chance you die.

Ill give you a few examples where this is easily demonstrably false.

• You miss your sniper shot. You can still 1 shot the enemy with a blunderbus a full hp opponent. (This would be fixed simply by reducing pellets from 10 to 9, another option of a nerf)
• You Fire your blunderbus like a moron, only 3 out of 10 pellets hit. (Pretty much a miss by blunderbus standards, as you barely even have to look at the enemy for this). You can still finish off your opponent with the 70 damage the sniper does.
• You COMPLETELY miss your both shots like a chump. The faster weapon to reload is the blunderbus, so unless you are a moron thats the one you reload. Reloading the bus is faster than it takes for a player to slash you 4 times (25 damage for the sword). Now, you COMPLETELY failed skill wise in this scenario, and a sword guy might have done all good by staying away and safe and made you waste your shots, having slashed you 2-3 times. He now has to back away or be at a disadvantage and likely 1 shot by blunder bus.

Now, of course all of those examples can have a lot of variations, different uses of weapons, orders, blunderbombs and such. But no. Doublegunning is not a glasscannon. Honestly simply removing 1 pellet from the blunder and not allowing it to 1 shot full hp people would fix a lot of issues, as it would make doublegunning a lot less forgiving than it is now.

Sniper specifically also has a huge advantage in naval combat, as its all usually fairly close quarters, and its easy to pull enemy to corners where he has only 1-2 small routes to get to you, where you barely even have to aim to get them for sure. (Feels kinda stupid that eye of reach is so good close combat to be honest, since its supposed to be a long range weapon)

As for you saying what % of gun shots get hit regged vs sword slashes...I must say you should be aware the number you said is 1000000% made up in your mind. Sword hit regs a lot too, and there's absolutely no way you or me or any other random player actually knows numbers. Please differentiate between facts and opinions, and dont make stuff up. Each gun has different issues with hit reg. Pistol in my OPINION is by far the worst. Sniper's bullet are too fast to care much about hitreg, and blunderbus is a hug-enemy weapon. Pistol has neither of those hitreg advantages.

So I should also clarify. When I say I think doublegun needs a nerf, I mean blunder/sniper. As in my opinion pistol is in a fairly bad state in the game.

@streichkase Indeed sword takes as much skill to master as doublegunning, except its a lot more punishing.

• Blunderbus beats it at close range. 1 shot kill. Even if you miss you can do a lot of damage. Faster reload than it takes to do 4 slashes. So technically you can kill 2 people with a blunder in the time it would take the sword to kill 1.
• SNIPER has advantage against you close range too. In half a second it can do 70 damage while a sword user does 25. And the sword user has to get close, making it easier for the sniper to hit you. Sniper should suck close range, but its actually quite good close quarters.
• Pistol is kinda the worst weapon of all I think. And I have never seen anyone doublegunning with it.
• Sword lunge is WAY too punishing. It takes time to charge. It tells your opponent you are doing it for a few moments, it limits your movement, if you miss you get stunned, in close quarters (IE) in a sloop, there are PLENTY of places where a doublegunner can hide which are pretty hard to reach. Yet with all of that it does very little damage. Less than blunder for sure. Less than the Sniper.

@kakaroto9766 My numbers are not made up. I’ve tested it with some dude I found sailing who was just as fed up with hit reg as I was in that session. In five blunderbuss shots, it regged twice. In five sniper shots, it regged once. I am unsure of how many flintlock shots regged as he performed it on me and didn’t actually tell me. (Multiple tests were performed, the above results are the rounded average of all the tests)
One shot blunders seem almost non-existent this update. I haven’t been one shot and I haven’t one shot anyone, regardless of how close I was to them. I don’t know what changed, but they aren’t very common now.
I said swords don’t reg much because that’s my experience with them. Maybe not for others, but for me, it’s just blocking and ‘noodle-arming’.
Double gun is a glass cannon. If you’ve used your blunder shot - which the opponent survived - and the idea in your original post has been implemented, then you cannot reload. If you’ve used your sniper shot already? Dead. If you’ve got a sword? Probably still dead because the block won’t work or sword stun will stop you from blocking altogether.
I could agree with a quick scope nerf. It doesn’t seem right, especially for a game like Sea of Thieves. I myself don’t use it (mainly because I can’t be bothered and I know if I do learn it then Rare will immediately patch it😅)

Any sword player will die to double gun if he, like a chump, fails to utilise sword lunges and block-jumps, which can be used to literally jump through enemy players. This means you can slash 2-3 times and, by the time the enemy has reloaded their gun, you have block-jumped behind them and finished them off.
A skilled sword player and a skilled double gun player are, honestly, fairly matched. On paper anyway. In practice, server issues and client side issues will always favour one side as it is never truly fair in terms of FPS and ping.

@scurvywoof said in Cancel/Re-start reload animation on taking damage (Doublegun nerf):

If you do not understand how your supposed tests are not meaningful at all, there's no amount of explaining that will get someone like you to understand. But still I will explain it some:

1- Your numbers and even your tests could be made up. No one in this forum has any way to verify it
2- IF you made any tests. The way you did your tests could be botched.
3- Even if you followed a perfectly balanced, documented, and easy to reproduce scientific method to perform your tests. (Which I am 100% sure you did not. Even if you did ANY test at all). And even if you did them while keeping track of the pings of the players to account for variation in results due to ping rather than gun. There are elements which not you nor anyone can possibly reproduce. If you had even the slightest idea how hitreg works or why its an issue, you would understand there are elements 100% out of your control. Even if you had the intelligence and ability to setup semi-decent testing. You might be testing pistol now, and the server is VERY busy, so it hitregs a lot. And 3 minutes later you test the same pistol, under the exact same circumstances and it doesnt hitregs at all. (Which, in case you do not understand, can give wildly inaccurate results not only within the same weapon but across different weapons)

Hence...your numbers are made up, whether if you understand it or not. A developer with full access to a dev environment where he can control server loads and in a LAN where he has full control of the packets would have a difficult time documenting accurate numbers of hitreg. Its impossible a random nobody on the internet has anything even remotely accurate.

So please, if you want to have a logical argument, dont bring made up numbers to the table. Because your made up numbers are not an argument.

@grumpyw01f said in Cancel/Re-start reload animation on taking damage (Doublegun nerf):

My experience has been the opposite. It's been very hard to get away from the one blunder in this update.

I dont think I have had any different experience since the last update. I created this because I think doublegunning has been OP for a while now. But I dont feel any difference myself

have gotten a lot of reg on sword lunges, though. Since I don't use lunges any more

Indeed sword lunges are highly inaccurate, highly risky, and with little reward. One way to balance things would be to remove some of the disadvantages of the lunges. Freedom of movement for one.

(some compare its implementation to a hand-cannon rather than a long range weapon

Part of the issue with the sniper is that the most IMPORTANT battles take place on a ship, either defending or boarding. And ALL ships have some very tight quarters and spots. Any half decent doublegunner knows where to hide so the enemy player/s will have to come to him down 1-2 routes where he will EASILY hit them without missing. And the way it is implemented now its just TOO GOOD close quarters. AND long range. AND high damage.
Quick scope nerf could be an option indeed, where it takes you longer to shoot from the moment you scope.
If specifically we went for nerfing the sniper, another option would be to make it unable to shoot or hit anything at very close range.

I am honestly not sure what would be best to nerf.

• 1 less pellet for the blunder
• Turn the hand cannon in to a proper sniper
• Restart/cancel reloading animation when damaged.
• Something else

blunderbuss has too much pressure/reload speed

Certainly blunderbus reloads QUITE fast. I feel the issue is more in the ability to 1 shot rather than in the ability to reload fast. But both things certainly add up.

@kakaroto9766 You are absolutely right. However, you did not respond to any of my other arguments. I get breaking down each post, but you focused on one argument and ignored the others. I indeed did perform the tests, and they are entirely circumstantial, but it still serves as an argument to be made.

So please, argue all the points, not just one.

@GrumpyW01f I literally just spent several hours using the sword, went against several double gunners, and absolutely demolished them. They were by no means good, but were definitely better than most double gunners I find. It was easy to block jump through them and it was easy to sword lunge and do several cheeky lunges with cancels to gain the upper hand. I swear, most arguments against double gun (and sword as well) make it seem like they have only the basic functions available to them. There are many ways to fight that don't require endless sword rushing. Blunderbombs, your gun, tridents, grabbing ladders through the hatch, etc. They all play a massive role against double gunners.
I understand your argument about the blunderbuss but I only semi-agree with it. I wasn't one shot in the whole session I played today and haven't been one shot at all the entire season so far. There is the risk of back-tracks with jumping through players, but they are far less common than a couple months ago. I do think that blunderbuss spread should be increased, though. At mid-range, like you said, it does too much damage. 50-60% of your health - if your lucky - is too much for a shotgun.

Let's review what I think everyone can agree on in this thread so far. Sweetsandman's idea of having only more than 40 damage cancel a sword lunge, taking away the quick-scope ability of the sniper and increasing the blunderbuss spread. Honestly, given we don't have much in common in the way we play, that's pretty good.