Remove the weapon unstow animation for guns and remove the firing lock during ADS animation

@mintharp184509 said in Remove the weapon unstow animation for guns and remove the firing lock during ADS animation:

Removing them entirely is unnecessary and plus there has to be a stow animation since you can stow weapons and equipment.

The stow animation isn't an issue as it doesn't actually lock you out of doing anything and most of the time you stow your weapon without even seeing the animation anyways.

What they could and should do is de-clunk all of the animations in the game by removing the weird pause at the end of them.

When you go to pull out a gun it rises up from the bottom of the screen then sort of lowers a tiny bit and rests - there’s this momentary awkward pause where you can not ADS when you feel like you should be able to ADS.

The same thing happens when digging up treasure. When you get towards the end of the dig animation there is this awkward pause again delaying you momentarily where you have to wait to dig again.

Hint: Remove the awkward pauses from any and all animations.

Then remove the ability to sprint cancel the stow animation meaning if you choose to sprint you will first have to unstow or ready your weapon/equipment before you can use it but the awkward pause at the end is now gone.

This is a really bad idea and doesn't solve the actual issue here that makes the guns feel clunky which is that the unstow animation prevents you from doing certain actions. Right now the animation can be canceled by sprinting and this was not an oversight by the devs- when they were adding these unstow animations they actively made a decision with patch 1.4.5 because the alternative felt horrible. Even if you removed the endlag on the animation it would still feel terrible. All players will naturally cancel the unstow animation by sprinting, not just double gunners who actively choose to do it.

Also none of this addresses the fact that the unstow animations were added explicitly to nerf the original version of the quick swap, but this isn't necessary any more since there's now a hardcoded cap on how fast you can fire two consecutive shots. If you just remove these unstow animations not only will gunplay feel smoother for everybody but sprint canceling will no longer be worth doing. This is honestly probably the only way you're going to actually remove the "sprint cancel" in a way that won't feel bad for everybody, removing it like this probably won't bother people who use it either. (I sprint cancel and am asking for these changes)

@magus104 said in Remove the weapon unstow animation for guns and remove the firing lock during ADS animation:

Even worse than the weapon draw delay though is not being able to animation cancel the digging. Its hard to describe just how good it felt to speed dig. Left click, x, x, Left click... As a solo slooper 100% of the time now it just feels disgusting having digging take twice as long as before specially when the chest is a deeper one. If solo sloops had a max of 2 digs to unbury things that might be ok but when you have to dig like 5x without speed digging thats like 10x the time it used to take. Its so dang slow now that i find myself just reading stuff on another screen while i spam the dig button because its just wasting my time at this point

Like every game out there though when someone finds an exploit then abuse it. So people using macros to more easily circumvent bad game design choices seems to be something rare might not agree with but they figure its such a small % of the player base that its fine. A lot of these nerfs seemingly were made for the sake of arena though. Considering they deleted that mode maybe some quality of life combat changes would be nice. Heck even slashing skeletons doesn't have an impact any more. I don't recall fort skeletons being so brutal in the past your attacks would have more impact. Like hitting them would stop them eating now I think it only happens when you actually knock them back when it used to happen just on a normal hit. Slashing a group of melee skeletons (without swords) and you just get torn apart.. Like I used to be able to tear through them. The last 2 forts I have done were FoF so obviously those guys are scaled up a bit more. But even then like the movement speed you can barely back away and charge a sword lunge because they move so fast and they can interrupt your lunge so easily being so fast. The combat feeling so bad has me using firebombs as much as possible. Skeletons are annoying as hell. It's weird but when I am not on a voyage and skeletons spawn that only take 2 hits... That feels AMAZING. I love that so much it just feels good... They are weak and frail... Like you would expect a skeleton to be. But then you got something like an athena skeleton that can take 9+ hits if they manage to eat or 1 with a keg and if you want to save the keg shoot them like 4x in the legs...

I'm not sure they ever balanced around Arena, the gamemode was routinely broken by balance updates that were rolled out and was neglected for years before it got removed- when they added the Disney update everyone was baffled by the fact that Sirens were spawning in Arena. Shovel canceling was actually only removed because the changes they made to bucket canceling effected all equipment. I hate that bucket reg is now a thing and bucketing feels so clunky now (it could use some further tweaks IMO) but in retrospect removing the bucket cancel was absolutely necessary, I can't imagine how bad naval combat would feel if ships were as tanky as they are now and could still bucket cancel.

You're right about combat feeling bad in general especially when fighting PvE. Enemies in this game have always felt like weirdly unresponsive bricks with too much HP and the sword is particularly egregious and unsatisfying to use. There's a reason a lot of players just don't even really engage with the PvE at all these days. I really wish there was a general update to the game feel of fighting enemies, along with some other changes like maybe adding a new enemy type on Athena voyages instead of just increasing skeleton HP which feels awful.

@mintharp184509 said in Remove the weapon unstow animation for guns and remove the firing lock during ADS animation:

@moogbeard

I pressed the quote button and it was so much I just couldn’t even bother.

I don’t think you know what you’re talking about honestly.

The stow animation is 100% what causes the ads delay because the game will not allow you to ads until the stow animation ends.

The stow animations are what is CLUNKY and need trimming (at the end).

Get good.

You definitely don't know what you're talking about. Why would you be ADSing after stowing your weapon? Do you know the difference between stowing and unstowing? The stow animation doesn't even happen unless you actively trigger it yourself by pressing X. It's the unstow animation that happens after switching to a weapon that locks you out of performing certain actions.

Read a dictionary before coming at me with this attitude.

@mintharp184509 said in Remove the weapon unstow animation for guns and remove the firing lock during ADS animation:

@moogbeard

The stow animation doesn’t imply the state (stowed or unstowed) it’s a toggle.

Obviously you have to unstow your weapon completely then the game will let you ads.

That is still considered the “stow” animation.

They are different animations. "Stow animation" does imply a state, the word stow literally means to put away.

When you weapon switch, you are stowing and unstowing weapons.

Yes. But the stow animation is only ever triggered by pressing X, it doesn't happen when you switch weapons.

@mintharp184509 said in Remove the weapon unstow animation for guns and remove the firing lock during ADS animation:

@moogbeard

Whatever you want to refer to the animations that play when you select a weapon or a throwable or food

This animation then causes the weapon or throwable or food to rise from the bottom of the screen

Those are unstow animations. Like I said before stow animations are different and only happen when you press x. If what you originally meant was unstow that's fine I don't care (just say that), but don't act like you not understanding what words mean is my fault.

All have an unnecessary pause at the end of them that until the animations fully complete that will not let you fire/throw/eat

This is the clunky-ness you speak of..

They can trim these animations so there is no awkward pause at the end of them so that players can fire/throw/eat sooner aka less clunk

This would not solve the issue since you'd still be locked out of performing actions during these animations. It's still going to feel clunky. Also not all unstow animations lock you out from performing actions, it mainly effects firing- you can grab a bucket almost immediately after switching to it for example, even after the changes they made to remove bucket canceling.

They are not going to remove them entirely I guarantee you

Why wouldn't they? These animations didn't prevent you from firing or ADSing originally, this was changed in 1.4.3 specifically to deal with the instant quick swapping with guns. A majority of these animations for most items are also purely visual (which is fine) and an alternative to outright removing them is to just make it so all actions cancel them.

The only way to remove the sprint cancel without just removing these unstow animations from the game (or making them canceled by all actions) is to change them so that sprinting no longer cancels unstow. But I guarantee you this would feel awful and there's a reason it's not in the game right now.

@mintharp184509 said in Remove the weapon unstow animation for guns and remove the firing lock during ADS animation:

@moogbeard said in Remove the weapon unstow animation for guns and remove the firing lock during ADS animation:

@mintharp184509 said in Remove the weapon unstow animation for guns and remove the firing lock during ADS animation:
It would feel awful?

Lol that’s hilarious.

Yes, it would feel awful. Do you really think being prevented from sprinting every time you switch a weapon is going to feel good? I assure you Rare tested this internally before they added these unstows and actively chose to make it so sprinting interrupted it because the alternative felt bad.

The majority of the casual playerbase does not intentionally skip the “un”stow animation. They deal with the clunkyness that is programmed in to the you guessed it “un”stow animation. Because I have to be super specific.

The majority of the casual playerbase unintentionally skips the unstow animation constantly. This is one of the reasons so many of them complain about the sprint cancel in the first place, they have no idea how or why it actually works and have no idea what removing it would actually entail.

You don't need to be super specific, and you can use the wrong words all you want, I don't care- when you're incorrect about something though you might want to consider just correcting the mistake instead of acting like a child and telling the other person to "get good"

So yes they should have stopped the sprint cancel exploit long ago in combination with trimming the “un”stow animation so that it takes less time to play and therefore less time before you can ads/throw/eat

You can eat immediately after switching. As for throwables, this is one of the things that makes me certain Rare actively chose to make it so sprinting cancels the weapon unstow, because for whatever reason it doesn't cancel the unstow animation for throwables- that unstow animation will happen after you finish sprinting no matter what. Probably because they want throwables to be a more deliberate and risky action than pulling out your gun.

You should NOT be able to switch weapons and instantaneously ads that’s ridiculous in a cartoon pirate game but it also doesn’t need to feel clunky either

Sounds like somebody needs to get good.

@mintharp184509 said in Remove the weapon unstow animation for guns and remove the firing lock during ADS animation:

Why would they add the stow animations in the game bruh?

This is covered in the OP post. Unstow animations in their current form were added to guns in 1.4.3 specifically to address the instant quick swapping. They are no longer necessary since quick swapping is already covered by the hard-coded timer that prevents you from firing consecutive shots too quickly, which was added in a much later update to nerf the sprint cancel. If you've ever done the quick swap you know that you can cancel the sprint animation and get into a full ADS long before the game will actually let you fire your second bullet. It literally does nothing at this point except make the gunplay clunkier than it needs to be. That's the whole basis of this thread.

@mintharp184509

I'm not sure what the point of these videos are other than to show you know how to sprint cancel. There is still a hardcoded limit on how fast you can fire two consecutive shots, one that did not exist when they added these unstow animations in 1.4.3.

@mintharp184509 said in Remove the weapon unstow animation for guns and remove the firing lock during ADS animation:

@moogbeard said in Remove the weapon unstow animation for guns and remove the firing lock during ADS animation:
Clearly the point is that sprint canceling the unstow animation is ridiculous when compared to not sprint canceling the unstow animation.

So remove the unstow animation rather than slowing the game down even further by adding more limitations to when you can fire/ADS.

Therefore the sprint canceling needs to go and the unstow animation needs to be tweaked. Like I said all along.

The devs disagree with you. The ability to fire/ADS instantly after sprinting is not an oversight, the devs explicitly made the decision to allow players do this in patch 1.4.5.

@mintharp184509 said in Remove the weapon unstow animation for guns and remove the firing lock during ADS animation:

The devs will hopefully continue removing exploits from the game to ensure a new player and a veteran player ads at the same speed after switching or unstowing a gun.

Finally, we can stop awkwardly sprinting when we really want to just ads not by removing the stow animations but by the devs making them better for fast paced gameplay.

All they need to do to "remove" the exploit in a way that is not clunky is to allow you to cancel them with any action.

@moogbeard said in Remove the weapon unstow animation for guns and remove the firing lock during ADS animation:

This would not solve the issue since you'd still be locked out of performing actions during these animations.

I'm confused. Are you saying that you don't like that you have to wait until the unstow animation has finished to shoot or ADS? Isn't that the point of the animation? To have a short time it takes to pull out the weapon, and this animation dresses the one second firing delay, no? Do you want to be able to shoot as soon as you switch to a gun?

@mferr11 said in Remove the weapon unstow animation for guns and remove the firing lock during ADS animation:

@moogbeard said in Remove the weapon unstow animation for guns and remove the firing lock during ADS animation:

I'm confused. Are you saying that you don't like that you have to wait until the unstow animation has finished to shoot or ADS? Isn't that the point of the animation? To have a short time it takes to pull out the weapon, and this animation dresses the one second firing delay, no?

No, the point of the animation in its current state was to nerf the original quick swap. This change was made in patch 1.4.3 as stated in the opening post. It's a change that I believe should be rolled back since there's now a less intrusive function in the game that effectively nerfs quick swapping in the form of a hardcoded delay between consecutive shots.

Do you want to be able to shoot as soon as you switch to a gun?

Yes, you should be able to shoot your gun or ADS immediately after switching. You can already do this by sprint canceling which is easy and prevalent. This is the rationale behind my suggestion:

• It effectively removes sprint canceling from the game in a way that does not aggravate people who use it by making the game slower/clunkier for them.
• It makes gunplay smoother for all players, even those who don't already sprint cancel.

I sprint cancel and I'm okay with losing the minor "advantage" it gives in combat, my main concern is with gunplay feeling better than it currently does.

@moogbeard said in Remove the weapon unstow animation for guns and remove the firing lock during ADS animation:

It's a change that I believe should be rolled back since there's now a less intrusive function in the game that effectively nerfs quick swapping in the form of a hardcoded delay between consecutive shots.

What I'm saying is that when you press the key to unstow your weapon, that begins the 1 second firing delay, yes? During the delay the unstow animation plays. Why do you want this animation removed, it's to communicate that the 1 second delay has not finished?

Yes, you should be able to shoot your gun or ADS immediately after switching. You can already do this by sprint canceling which is easy and prevalent. This is the rationale behind my suggestion:

I guess I just disagree here. I think you should have to wait for the unstow animation to finish before you can begin another action. I don't think you should be able to press your weapon button and immediately shoot or ADS. Maybe make the animation faster if you want it to feel smoother, but I don't think you can just not have an animation for when you unstow your weapons. It would look janky.

@mferr11 said in Remove the weapon unstow animation for guns and remove the firing lock during ADS animation:

What I'm saying is that when you press the key to unstow your weapon, that begins the 1 second firing delay, yes? During the delay the unstow animation plays. Why do you want this animation removed, it's to communicate that the 1 second delay has not finished?

No. The firing delay is not triggered by unstowing, it is triggered by firing a prior shot. The unstow animation is longer than the firing delay. It was also added literally years before the firing delay was added to the game, they are essentially two entirely unrelated additions to the game which do not have any relation to each other other than the fact that they were both introduced to solve the same problem.

I guess I just disagree here. I think you should have to wait for the unstow animation to finish before you can begin another action. I don't think you should be able to press your weapon button and immediately shoot or ADS. Maybe make the animation faster if you want it to feel smoother, but I don't think you can just not have an animation for when you unstow your weapons. It would look janky.

The game looked fine on launch, before the current version of the unstow animation was added. Again if you really want to keep it for cosmetic purposes just make it skippable by all actions.

The devs explicitly chose to make it so you can fire instantly after sprinting in patch 1.4.5 for a reason. They don't prevent you from sprinting immediately after switching weapons for a reason. The sprint cancel existing is a consequence of the devs trying to make the gunplay feel less clunky, and the gun unstow animation's original purpose was to prevent instant quick swapping but this is no longer necessary due to the hardcoded firing delay. It's just easier and cleaner at this point to remove that animation or make it skippable by all actions- this would make gunplay smoother for everyone, it would remove the advantages of the sprint cancel, and would be minimally intrusive to how gameplay feels currently (would actually make things feel better for players who don't sprint cancel)

If you want to add some kind of additional visual/audio cue to let the player know when they can fire again that's fine, but the unstow animation is a poor solution for this.

@lleorb said in Remove the weapon unstow animation for guns and remove the firing lock during ADS animation:

Have you seen how this works? Without the animation pause you can simply kill instantly. Sword combat is already obsolete because of the double gun, your suggestion will make the sword completely useless.

Yes I have seen how this works, have you? You cannot kill instantly with this change because this change would not actually effect balance. People can already ADS and shoot instantly via sprint canceling. You would still not be able to fire two consecutive shots instantly because of the hardcoded firing delay.

The sword will never be useless so long as it cancels reloads and can be infinitely swung.

I'm really begging people in this thread to spend the 30 seconds learning how sprint canceling works before replying.

@moogbeard
<The sword will never be useless so long as it cancels reloads and can be infinitely swung.

For that it would need to effectively cancel reload at all time. The number of times I've had someone reloading their blunderbuss while I chop them off is too damn high. :p