The worst part about pvp in this game is the lack of opportunities to learn

I agree, I did an 8 hour twitch stream the other day.
Constant server hopping and chasing reapers, 10 second broadside into a board, battle was over in 30 seconds, learnt nothing meaningful in those exchanges apart from learning muscle memory of knowing where to aim my cannon next time to perfect a board shot...

Near the last 2 hours of my stream me & my crew kept our reapers grade 5 flag and used it to portal hop. We were TWO Man gally at that point, sunk 2 sloops, and a brig in the same server...
TWO Man gally I must repeat...

Guess how many fights in those 8 hours of non stop playing was actually worth the time and learning experience? ONE. And that was a full gally vs gally, fighting a mixed NAL crew. AKA two crews that wanted to fight each other no matter the outcome... It was Glorious and the only memory I had retained in those 8 hours of game time...

95% of PvP encounters, is the hunter, and the prey that will sail away in their wind condition depending on the ship they are sailing, not even going for boards/keg plays... Extremely boring at times...

If im forced to stack treasure, and make my ship a beacon to attract PvP, and going out my way spending 20+ minutes server hopping finding reaper targets that end up just running away, its no surprise why some of the best players in the game no longer play the game often anymore. The Proof is in the pudding.

Doing 2 hours of PvE to hopefully attract some PvP as a result and getting nothing, is not a game that I want to be playing for long sadly.

I have over 11k hours and more organic combat experience than most and I'm not great at pvp.

Learning in this game is a slow process because of how random and chaotic it is, I'm still working on my naval, my gun accuracy, my strategy, my reactions, my responses, my overall performance even with all of the organic adventure combat I've been in.

Some people are very good at game combat and they pick it up early and do well, some play an easier mode with 2 or 3 other people with some skill and that is overkill in adventure so they do well, and there are some like me that don't rely on being excellent at combat (because it's not a realistic option) we rely on our earned knowledge of the environment and our efficiency and strategy to get things done despite losses. Some slowly improve and eventually it just clicks and they become a skilled pvper.

It's all too random and chaotic to truly practice for it. Many of us are forged in the fire. Determination and effort combined with consistency and efficiency will get a sailor without connections where they intend to go.

The competition is too fierce at times, the sea is too unpredictable and harsh, the greatest asset in this environment is figuring out how to lose over and over again and not letting it stop you. Unless you end up on an alliance server or a ship with 2-3 very skilled players you will lose, over and over again and that won't change if you don't stack the deck in your favor, which most people don't in an organic environment. Minimize the losses, set short term goals over and over and reach them over and over. Find your strengths and embrace them, there are many different ways to succeed in this game, it's not all tied to sinks and kills.

Find a way to stay in love with the experiences you enjoy, don't let loss or frustration destroy it. Find what you truly enjoy doing in the game and fortify it with strategy to protect it.

I agree with all being said apart from this nitpick:

As it is now, the runners have all the advantages. Unlimited board attempts with basically no penalty for failing other than perhaps the unmanned ship running into an object.

• Runners don't actually have the advantage as long as the pursuer is consistent, runners cannot sell apart from doing drive bys to an outpost selling 1/2 items at a time, but they cannot safely park and sell their loot if the enemy ship behind is close by. Even forcing runners to redsea is a win in my book. I LOVE how runners claim that they ''wasted'' the chasers time by forcing them to redsea, when the runners really are the ones that spent 1 hour getting their loot just for them to lose it all in a pathetic/cowardice manner. I'd rather be stubborn and chase for hours if need be to get the point across, learn to PvP one day or another to defend your loot and no, you will not get off freely by running all the time.

• Runners will also eventually run out of map space (Outside of redsea if they wish to do so) unless the wind RNG is extremely in their luck 100% of the time, and they manage their sails just as good as the crew chasing, one minute or another they will be cornered and no where to go, as long as the crew chasing is smart and position their ship where the runners cannot use the wind to their advantage, they are usually toast.

You have no idea how many PvE orientated players show their true colors when they finally get caught after a 20 minute chase and them crying/raging.

That being said, theres nothing to learn in those ''PvP'' encounters of an enemy that will do anything to avoid PvP. It's boring, some crews never attempt anything savy let alone boarding, but as mentioned above, they will get sunk in some way at the end of the day.

@nitroxien said in The worst part about pvp in this game is the lack of opportunities to learn:

@wolfmanbush remember this is a post by a new player in the game. Most people are not willing to play 11k hours of a game and still be losing a lot of fights. The issue now is that this game is no longer new player friendly as we have taken away crucial tools allowing them to practice and rival others on the seas.

Forcing your decision to not practice aggressively to improve on new players is like telling them they will never rise to the top of the food chain just because you joined the game late.

In my mind the most important thing to keeping a game healthy is a strong new player experience and if this is a post from a new player and the best answers we have is you are forced to play the PVP since it is a PVPVE game but there is not effective way for you to practice the PVP like in other PVPVE games than this constitutes a bad new player experience.

It's easier now. Pve has been significantly nerf'd repeatedly. More content means more options and more style freedoms. There are ways to get rich in this game in ways that didn't exist when I and others started.

The point is not that people need to put in as much time and effort as I have the point is that the environment will always be difficult to some people as long as this game remains as the foundation has been. "If only I had this/that" things would change for me is a common view but the reality of this environment and this foundation is struggle and loss are inevitable and will always be around. Accepting that and adapting to it leads to success. That's what will get pirates where they want to go. The skill gap will most likely always be massive, the shared environment will likely always bring session based hardship, sometimes.

They get to choose, they get to adapt like everyone else.

5 thousand gold a day isn't any less significant than 5 million from the perspective of individual journey. Any positive and forward moving goal is strong and valuable. Build that foundation as an individual pirate. Hit the goals as an individual pirate. What others do is irrelevant. Everything that matters to the individual is valid. Everyone will not do everything that everyone else has done but the individual gets to do something they value.

They are capable and in my view they should not be treated as if they aren't. They are capable of succeeding here and that's how I think they should be treated, as people of potential with opportunity in front of them. Personal and piratical successes in the making where they get to define what was valuable to them on their journey, where they get to define accomplishment.

I simply refuse to believe or support narratives that suggest that they are not capable of finding individual based success here.

Set the goals, hit them, set more. They will do incredible with effort and determination. They will bring value to the seas through their participation. Stick with it, one step at a time and one session at a time. It all adds up, it all matters, it all leads to learning.

@nex-stargaze said in The worst part about pvp in this game is the lack of opportunities to learn:

@wolfmanbush said in The worst part about pvp in this game is the lack of opportunities to learn:

It's easier now. Pve has been significantly nerf'd repeatedly. More content means more options and more style freedoms. There are ways to get rich in this game in ways that didn't exist when I and others started.

The point is not that people need to put in as much time and effort as I have the point is that the environment will always be difficult to some people as long as this game remains as the foundation has been. "If only I had this/that" things would change for me is a common view but the reality of this environment and this foundation is struggle and loss are inevitable and will always be around. Accepting that and adapting to it leads to success. That's what will get pirates where they want to go. The skill gap will most likely always be massive, the shared environment will likely always bring session based hardship, sometimes.

They get to choose, they get to adapt like everyone else.

5 thousand gold a day isn't any less significant than 5 million from the perspective of individual journey. Any positive and forward moving goal is strong and valuable. Build that foundation as an individual pirate. Hit the goals as an individual pirate. What others do is irrelevant. Everything that matters to the individual is valid. Everyone will not do everything that everyone else has done but the individual gets to do something they value.

They are capable and in my view they should not be treated as if they aren't. They are capable of succeeding here and that's how I think they should be treated, as people of potential with opportunity in front of them. Personal and piratical successes in the making where they get to define what was valuable to them on their journey, where they get to define accomplishment.

I simply refuse to believe or support narratives that suggest that they are not capable of finding individual success here.

Individual success in your eyes comes from a player that does what an 11k hour player from launch has done. You might have a relatively healthy playstyle that continues to give you a reason to boot up the game, even amidst your failures. However, that's not the core issue mentioned in this thread, it's that the new players are screwed out of something that was once accessible, it's kind of like a "skill creep" issue.

Instead of getting into fights that often lead to the ability to learn, you're just thrashing lesser skilled boats hoping you learned something out of hitting a parked boat on its water line while it barely fires anything back, or worse, have to learn how to out-sail a running player to then try to chainshot them instead of experimenting what cursed cannonball combo with specials might work in some scenarios, or even better ways to deflect boarders under heavy pressure.

You might have figured that out in your 11k hours with the addition of arena, a player with 100 hours though, yeah they need to get rich quick, but what if that isn't what they want to do. maybe they want to hunt their loot down from other pirates, and are stuck either chasing boats or getting screwed by scummy galleon/brig maneuvers such as the turret (where the ship doesn't need to use sails to obliterate you, it just fires cannons and keeps rotating a broad on you unless you have an anchorball, or manage to board and anchor the crew). PvP is not in a good state, while PvE, and shorter sessions are thriving.

Why can't we have more competent hunters on the seas go toe to toe with arena veterans? Why does it have to be RNG if the crew we want to fight is actually going to fight or not?

I believe that some veterans are enabling new and struggling players that are looking for a reason to quit on themselves or to have negative views about the environment. They should not quit on themselves. They should not rob themselves of their potential.

Everyone should believe in their ability to improve because it's a fact, with effort and dedication they will improve at finding their place within the environment. They might not become a highlight reel pvper, they might lose fights and loot, but they will improve. They will get to a place where it is less difficult with effort and dedication. They can take their time and put in the time that their schedules allow.

Put in the effort and stay focused on the short term goals. It won't surprise me any when they start doing alright but it might surprise them with what they are capable of.

@like-500-ninjas said in The worst part about pvp in this game is the lack of opportunities to learn:

What is with this "PVP Learning Experience" garbage? That keeps getting bought up. "Oh, you got attacked while anchored at an island? Learning experience", "Oh you got ripped soloing by a 4 man PL crew? Learning experience." The only learning experience you take from that is how to scuttle and go play something that doesn't waste your time.

Why put baggage on those that are starting their own journey?

Some play this game even though they display resentful and negative views about the environment, a privilege they have to exercise but why put that on others that haven't developed their own experiences?

I've seen you talk about how you think many within the community cause issues, how does this help? How does trying to convince new players of negative views help improve things from your perspective?

In my view their piratical beginnings are served by supporting them with a positive outlook, one that encourages them to reach their potential, to hold strong against difficulties they currently face. They are the future of activity. One day they will be experienced pirates. They will be the ones there to welcome newer pirates. If they begin by being surrounded by pushed negativity that may lead them to embrace it and spread it as well.

Learning is more than learning how to win, how to fight, it's also about self improvement as a person and a pirate. How to observe more efficiently, how to strategize with more consistent outcomes, how to process difficulty, how to respond and react to it in a way that creates sustainable and positive outcomes.

They have the opportunity to improve and grow here. In my view things improve when veterans offer sunlight and water to those that are struggling as piratical seedlings. They will become self-sufficient existences that improve the environment around them with a support system that remains positive and confident in their potential.

@nitroxien You know why they can't learn?
I'll tell you why, because every single mid tier player, who focuses on PVE, is stuck inside a discord server for hours waiting in line to get inside a "custom" server where there is no threat, so they can farm pointless gold and cosmetcis with no risk at all.
So now the actual community, the one who plays as intended and doesn't abuse the game into oblivion, is split in two categories.

Sweatlords, gods of pvpve content who can sink you in a blink of an eye.
Completely new players who doesn't know how to even steer properly.
Plus most players mentality is to gather loot and sell, they get in love with their loot, and no one from rare tells them, it's far more important to lose loot while learning how to defend it, than just gatherin and selling loot while sailing away as fast as possible from any threat.

I for example started to play this game a lot more on this instance, and since I'm a tryhard and have that mentality, I've been spawn camped and insta sinked so many times by this gods I even lost record, yet I never gave up, and continue to turn around and fight even with my ship loaded af, and now I've made the transition into a sweat lord myself, I can challenge those type of players (resulting in the most amazing, enjoyable and competitive fights I could ask for) and instantly sink noobs with no effort or even
no cannon balls as well (which I don't because I know how it feels, so I just greet, sometimes steal supps and leave them be)

And where are all the mid tier players? Or the pve oriented players who doesn't pack a lot of skill and could be a great practice or even mentor for this fresh new players?
Abusing alliance servers, playing their own separate game, abusing leaderboards and farming pointless cosmetics, and I say pointless because what this players don't understant, is that the value of earning 8m gold for DA sails, is not having free time or farming endless braindead mobs, is to earn that amount in a hard enviroment where several people will try and stop you from succeding, and that's the beauty of this game, which is slowly being ruined.

There is a new trend between pve only players, they claim there is a 3ird breed of players who only cares about pvp, and never even waste time on pve events, and that is not true, those players are new ones who understood is more important to know how to defend your loot than to spend hours to stack your ship, so they spawn and sail away looking for fights just to practice, this kind of players either quit out of boredom (too much time wasted looking for fights, lack of care on cosmetic progression) or they eventually find something to work towards and slowly become a sweatlord themselves (that if they don't get seduced by the dark side on discord if you know what I mean)

@mintharp184509 that trail idea sounds fantastic m8!!

I mainly PvP and I haven’t had a learning experience in well over a year. I 100% agree, Sea of Thieves needs more learning opportunities. I still use my inventory on the cannons to switch cannonballs, despite recently learning I could just use the radial! That was never made obvious.

@scurvywoof said in The worst part about pvp in this game is the lack of opportunities to learn:

I mainly PvP and I haven’t had a learning experience in well over a year. I 100% agree, Sea of Thieves needs more learning opportunities. I still use my inventory on the cannons to switch cannonballs, despite recently learning I could just use the radial! That was never made obvious.

I did that for so long lol

Not really a fan of the "fights are extremely quickly" can't learn any thing argument if for nothing els it's pretty weak...

And I have to say even when "we" had arena it was not like something the "new" players did pick up and used as practice to get better or that is not my impression of how the "new" players used arena

I started playing around a month ago, maybe around 4/5 days of playtime. Used to PVP & PVE games alike (previous CS player on PC, Halo player on Xbox).

The first issue on Sea of Thieves that I've experienced so far is players that have thousands of hours of practice, just spawn-camping new players until they switch servers to maybe have some peace or simply quit. Perhaps balancing the servers based on the number of hours would slightly level the playing field? This way, everyone gets a chance to play against people with the same amount of experience. This setting could be disabled for people looking for a more significant challenge.

The second issue is a community problem and the nature of PVP. Sea of Thieves has alliances and allows friendly interactions too, but as a new player, it seems like the default gameplay is: sink, steal, repeat. Some players try to make the game fun and unpredictable, where interactions don't necessarily have to end in an ego battle, and even if they do, it can happen in a creative and fun way for everyone. I've watched some streams of experienced players, and it's hilarious (even though they are mainly PVP); it's creative and fun, with unique interactions. But they are infrequent, and many players just like to boost their ego by endlessly sinking new players (with less than 100 hours), usually with no microphone, no interactions whatsoever, or insulting them in the process.

Many folks in this thread seem to want a way to "track" people when escaping, but here's the thing: running away is part of PVP. So is retreating. It's not because you want a fight that others do too. And even if they do, they have the right to choose to escape for now and maybe come back later with a counter-attack or try to bring this fight to a familiar terrain to possibly gain an advantage.

Also, as mentioned earlier in the thread: not everyone can spend 20 hours a day practicing PVP. Some of us would like to enjoy 3/4 hours of fun with our friends (including some PVP) without wasting 80% of that time trying to avoid toxic players.

Just my swabbie two cents.

@foxted42 said in The worst part about pvp in this game is the lack of opportunities to learn:

The first issue on Sea of Thieves that I've experienced so far is players that have thousands of hours of practice, just spawn-camping new players until they switch servers

How often has this happened to you?

Camping to secure the sink is common, people might steal supplies, they might not be in a super hurry to sink the boat but generally I don't see many examples of it happening to try to force a scuttle or server bounce, it happens but not often. The less experienced/more new a player is the more damage they will typically take and the quicker that sink is going to happen.

Most pvp crews avoid it if there isn't personal beef not only because it's not a very pleasant way to conduct an interaction but also because many pvp crews are interested in self-preservation and don't want to get caught up in a report. Pvpers are like pvers in that they often have many hours of personal investment in the game and they are aware that certain things don't look good if a report is made with evidence. Most pvpers aren't looking to lose access or their accounts.

A lot of the camp till they quit crews are off chasing around known players as they consider them bigger fish. Doesn't mean you will never see them it's just not a regular thing in the organic experience, especially if you aren't running around reapers or obviously stacking out in the open.

Sometimes you might get an organic crew that does it but they don't usually last long on the seas because they are often less subtle/strategic about how they do things and how they communicate.

@galactic-geek I learnt that because a friend told me. With over 700 hours of playtime, you would’ve thought I’d of known that much sooner.
I’ve looked, and I remember trying to in the past, obviously before it was introduced. I don’t really bother with the patch notes because my friend is such an patch notes heavy guys, they tell me pretty much everything. Except this when it was introduced, apparently.