How would you personally gauge the health status of PvP in general? Do you think there should be new ways to stimulate PvP (Against Reapers specifically) ? {Thought Dump} Lengthy, TL;DR at very end.

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  • roaming around the seas looking for PvP. Spending say 6+ hours a session a day at times during the week...

    and yet other players seem to always find PvP players within 5min of login at the Outposts....and they dont want Pvp

    Feels like a drag trying to find PvP at times, can take hours upon hours finding a worthy opponent.

    Define "Worthy" because I dont deem anyone worthy if they dont have Loot to fight or defend for. Meanwhile..everyone without Loot seems to attract these PvP and they sink them regardless of 'worthy'

    by far traditional server hopping is the most efficient in finding willingly targets.

    Or not hunting, just play the game as you said before, collect treasures and wait....Dont hunt.

    wasting hours upon hours trying to find decent fights is de-motivating over time...

    Single minded players who only want PvP. Meanwhile the real dedicated players who do PvpvE are still having a blast with no need to quit because one side is pity.

    Sorry to say, the average player is a ''bot'' that cannot defend a boarder if their lives literally meant it...

    Try not boarding for once, the ship combat is much more engaging. Until you disable there mast and pull up beside them, then Board.

    As much as I love the PvE and story of this game, I have completed FotD over 100+ times, done countless world events, PvP is the thing which I am liking the most as of lately, a lot of experience to be had...

    Commendations completed? Achievements acquired? How about that Shrouded ghost?

    some players seem way to lax and give up/scuttle on the sight of a PvP encounter and complain how it's toxic

    Only if PvP offered me a reward. Non loot carrying players I dont mess with or care to fight back and risk my own or nothing else. If both ships have nothing, I dont pvp because it pointless fighting with no end goal other than to "be skilled" at a skillless game.

    So far. PvP has no reason to be engaged with other players who aren't seeking it or want it. As you mentioned, maybe some rewards/commendations would help?
    Or those will be ignored and left in the dust for those who still dont wanna do them.
    and reading all this, As many PvP players Ive noticed, do the same thing. Sink ships because they are bored. Meanwhile...Im still working on FotD commendations (since Im not part of any dedicated discord or alliance stuff) and Im basically an casual gamer who just, plays.

  • and yet other players seem to always find PvP players within 5min of login at the Outposts....and they dont want Pvp

    Seems to be a luck based thing, if you afk at an outpost getting ready for 20 minutes, then yeah, some other ship in the area is going to show up..

    Define "Worthy" because I dont deem anyone worthy if they dont have Loot to fight or defend for. Meanwhile..everyone without Loot seems to attract these PvP and they sink them regardless of 'worthy'

    I define a pirate that can shoot back and hit their targets and has 2 working braincells as ''worthy'', showing up to a broadside and pummeling an enemy ship where they just stare at you like A deer looking at headlights or looking like a badly coded AI bot that doesn't move an inch, I wouldn't consider a fun/worthwhile opponent, I'm sorry, but no...
    Sure having loot can be considered worthy, but even then unless they have more then 100k worth of loot I don't bother.

    Or not hunting, just play the game as you said before, collect treasures and wait....Dont hunt.

    You seem to miss the part where I stated I had sessions where I stayed in a server or two and stacked for hours upon hours with no interference from other players, putting reaper/bounty chest with a reaper flag to gain attention, yet... Nothing... (Just bad luck until at what point it becomes a common occurrence?) Which leads to my counter-argument, why should I have to wait for a long time to find PvP in a game that where its core pillars focuses on the hybrid PvE/PvP?

    Single minded players who only want PvP. Meanwhile the real dedicated players who do PvpvE are still having a blast with no need to quit because one side is pity.

    ''Real dedicated players'' ok bud, ok. I get the argument that doing both pve and PvP is good, which I do, but again, if you have read the post, PvP encounters where fair and skill-full skirmishes happen is far and between.

    Try not boarding for once, the ship combat is much more engaging. Until you disable there mast and pull up beside them, then Board.

    Don't need a lesson on boarding/naval. I think having sunk thousands of ships and good players I can judge how to win naval battle to a good degree.

    Commendations completed? Achievements acquired? How about that Shrouded ghost?

    Ah yes that shrouded ghost that is based purely off luck... im not looking for a 99% completion of the game.

    Only if PvP offered me a reward. Non loot carrying players I dont mess with or care to fight back and risk my own or nothing else. If both ships have nothing, I dont pvp because it pointless fighting with no end goal other than to "be skilled" at a skillless game.

    Seems shallow and close minded, always something to be learned in every encounter but hey, each their own I guess...

    So far. PvP has no reason to be engaged with other players who aren't seeking it or want it. As you mentioned, maybe some rewards/commendations would help?
    Or those will be ignored and left in the dust for those who still dont wanna do them.
    and reading all this, As many PvP players Ive noticed, do the same thing. Sink ships because they are bored. Meanwhile...Im still working on FotD commendations (since Im not part of any dedicated discord or alliance stuff) and Im basically an casual gamer who just, plays.

    And that is fine. No one is forcing to PvP you. What I find funny is the double standard, yeh sinking ships is fun in a pirate game, WHO WOULD OF THOUGHT!?!?!?
    PvE like to cry and poke about PvP orientated players not finding targets, fine, on the same token PvE focused players have no right to cry when they encounter PvP crew who ignore their crys of alliancing/leaving them alone.
    Since in the end, both get what they wanted in some way shape or form correct?

  • You know, some of us just don't like pvp regardless of the reward.

    I think it's perfect the way it is.

  • @pithyrumble Ok, that is fine for players that hate PvP.
    But what about the ones that want to PvP from time to time and are not finding players to fight against that are willingly to fight back?
    Nothing worse and mundane then fighting a target that simply lacks the ability/willingness to shoot back, it's just not fun.

  • In my opinion

    performance is poor
    risk/reward balancing has largely been poor
    this new respawn is not a positive decision overall

    some will enjoy pvp still, some will love it

    but imo it's not in a healthy place as a part of the shared environment.

    All of the stress is on the producer and all of the combat luxury leans for the server hopping hunter.

    Quality of combat encounter has steadily declined. Content created is far less interesting on average because of the imbalances in risk reward.

    So many things are leaning one way that I don't see any significant improvements being made.

    What I see happening is custom servers eventually becoming necessary to pick up the slack and a lot more contrived combat occurring for pvp and for content creation.

    There is no real incentivizing quality risk/reward pvp without massive changes being made and a lot of decisions being reversed or significantly altered imo and that isn't gonna happen.

    This new respawn thing is just gonna amplify what chainshots/paid supplies from the dock amplified. Running, running and more running, stick-it-to-em plays, lower production.

  • @wolfmanbush

    • I agree that the ''balance'' in reality is tipped heavily towards players that just ignore it, might as well become a purely PvE/Adventure based game. Shooting opponents that don't want to PvP is like hitting a dummy bag. No real ''substance'' in it.

    ''I don't want to PvP, So I refuse 100%, easily said and done.''= TRUE.
    ''I don't want to PvE''= Wow your so ungrateful, the game has to be a balance of PvE AND PvP, look at how much the game has to offer!... Yet those same people don't actually dare to PvP in reality and will take any opportunity to negate PvP focused players, lets be honest and stop the cap... PvP is also a big part of what the game offers, which they negate...

    Quality of combat encounter has steadily declined. Content created is far less interesting on average because of the imbalances in risk reward.

    So many things are leaning one way that I don't see any significant improvements being made.

    -Fighting a reaper 5 as you are a gold hoarder 4 for example, why risk your loot against a reaper 5 sweaty Galleon that probably has no loot on board, is their grade 5 flag really worth the hassle over your loot? 99% of the time it's no, no wonder they avoid PvP like the plague... Your chances of winning against a crew like that are slim to none. Risk reward as you put it is greatly unfavorable. I don't find it surprising why people run from reapers ALL the time instead of confronting them...

    • New respawn time should of only been for Sloop players.

    • To this day I find it stupid that to get PvP in a PvEvP Orientated game, a LOT MORE TIME has to be spent looking for PvP then it is for PvE, by ten fold... I have had days where I didn't have a single good PvP encounter where I felt good about, mostly runners or PvEs, scuttling and crying, fun...

    • Custom servers for PvP kinda exists, Partners give Private servers to teams, but even then it has its drawbacks.
      1.You need connections to acquire said private servers. (Building a relationship with SoT partners is no easy task, managing a date + time to respect as well as building trust to hand over a server to two teams= 8 players that are responsible in behaving)
      2.The time management and actually getting resources to setup PvP scrims/events in private servers takes time...

  • @ix-indi-xi said in How would you personally gauge the health status of PvP in general? Do you think there should be new ways to stimulate PvP (Against Reapers specifically) ? {Thought Dump} Lengthy, TL;DR at very end.:

    2.The time management and actually getting resources to setup PvP scrims/events in private servers takes time...

    already seeing more of it out necessity to make up for the issues within the environment.

    In a risk reward environment the power needs to be on the side of effort/investment/production and it's long been the opposite of that. The issue is that balancing was sacrificed for "qol" and when talking about combat that really just comes down to trying to create a hybrid arena of quick action for content. Something that was never and will never be sustainable in a shared risk/reward adventure environment.

    Video killed the radio star, Internet killed the rock star, and no investment chain shots killed the balanced organic experience.

    No effort power to immobilize producers in an environment with a massive skill gap was devastating to the organic experience and quality pvp within it.

  • @burnbacon "I dont pvp because it pointless fighting with no end goal other than to "be skilled" at a skillless game."

    Actually naval fighting takes quite a bit of skill, and gets pretty intense. Especially as a solo sloop of course. IMO

    however the gun play is pretty shallow and clunky, low skill gap, compared to competitive shooters, yes.

  • @ix-indi-xi said in How would you personally gauge the health status of PvP in general? Do you think there should be new ways to stimulate PvP (Against Reapers specifically) ? {Thought Dump} Lengthy, TL;DR at very end.:

    Ok, that is fine for players that hate PvP.
    But what about the ones that want to PvP from time to time and are not finding players to fight against that are willingly to fight back?

    It's just the side effects of a game that walks the line between PvP and PvE.

    SoT was designed to be PvPvE and is at it's strongest when being played that way. You have the choice to focus on one more than the other, but you have to accept that doing so brings limitations and inconveniences.

    People who only like to PvE, like me, have a lot of stuff they can do. But they must accept that they will never be safe, will miss out on the big payday events, and, if found, will almost certainly lose their haul.

    People who only want to PvP have to accept that they won't always be able find someone willing and/or skilled enough to satisfy their preference.

    Trying to incentivize one playstyle almost never works. Making the incentives unobtrusive won't change anybody's behavior. While making them obtrusive enough TO change behavior is just going to create frustration and bad blood.

  • People who only want to PvP have to accept that they won't always be able find someone willing and/or skilled enough to satisfy their preference.

    This is pretty much the whole core of this discussion.

    People who only want PvE have to accept that, sometimes, they'll get attacked by others. And I'd say for the most part, they do. I mostly do PvE and I love the fact that others are out there to hunt me. If they get near, I'll fight them, sometimes I'll win, sometimes they will. It's what makes the game great.

    People who only want PvP, in turn, obviously need to realize that this is not a deathmatch game and therefore there will be times when they can't find anyone for a while or they run into someone that doesn't put up much of a fight.

    That said, from the times I've played actively as a PvPer, I do admit that it can get a bit boring if it takes too long to find others to fight. As a PvEer this is not as big of an issue, because there's always stuff to do around you and the occasional PvP encounter can be part of a fun experience. Searching the seas with no luck isn't so much fun.

    I'd say this may have something to do with the way the Reaper faction is designed at the moment.

    Since Reapers are essentially player-controlled boss enemies, perhaps they should have the ability to always see where the other ships are in the same way everyone can see them. Or at the very least, have the ability to see every emissary, regardless of rank. And perhaps most important of all: Reapers should only accept loot stolen from other players in order to incentivize player combat. That way there wouldn't be so many people playing as Reapers and simply collecting treasure to level up without bothering anyone.

  • Well, most ships I find with treasure on, start to sail away as soon as they spot me, they could sail away for 3hs just to save around 30k worth of loot, the ships that actually chase me and want a fight, either come completely empty or just stacked with supps (they spawn, loot the OP and go chase for a fight)

    Most fights are boring because you either find completely new crews which you can single handedly sink with a few firebombs and blunder shots, or extremely skilled pvp players which take hours to sink (in most cases when I "lose" they end up either escaping or sinking me out of boredom after a long long fight)

    I've seen countless people ditch a FOF or even FOTD just to not contest it, even when they only need to kill the last boss.

    Tons of players dc or scuttling ship with out even trying once to fight back.

    It's like there are no intermediate level players around anymore, and I personally been blaming alliance servers on that for months now in this forum and reddit, can't help to picture them on discord waiting for countless hours to finally get inside the game, hours regular players use to just play as intended.

    For some context, I'm a pvpve player, who always flags as reaper, I go around farming loot to reach lvl 5 while waiting for a fight, and if I reach lvl 5 and my server is empty or no one wants a fight, that's when I appeal to server hop and I start chasing emissaries through different servers (something I personally hate but feel forced to do) I rarely attack new players or empty ships, if I do I command my friends to not sink them and on most cases I don't even fight them, just board and greet, sometimes if I'm low on supps I'll politely rob them with no guns fired unless they fire first.
    And most importantly I'm never toxic, on wins or defeats I always say gg, drop some friendly jokes, sing some songs on the ferry and try to have fun and even meet my adversaries and get to know them a bit.

  • @unleet1 But that's how pve only players want to picture the game, as a skill less friendly game with no objective, challenge or whatever, because that way they can justify having pve only servers and not working towards a goal like becoming a skilled pirate, if only they new this game is as skill based as the best shootes out there, and even a bit more since here you have a lot more variables to calculate mid fight.

  • I'm just gonna say: I don't like PvP. I avoid it as much as possible.

    So, if you find my ship, I will try to go away, if you catch me, then I'll try to defend myself (I'm not good at fighting) but I won't try to sink you, and then you can kill me, and sink me. I will respawn somewhere else and continue my PvE journey.

    Don't expect me to engage in PvP. Just because someone else wants to PvP doesnt mean that others have to engage in it too. And just because I want PvE I don't expect everything to go smooth and not be attacked by someone else.

    The problem is that players expecting PvP and players expecting PvE got inside the same server and both will have their ideals collide. PvPers will have to suffer from boredom of not getting combat, just like PvEers will have to suffer from stress from other coming and attack them. Both have their own way to play it. And I respect others' playstyle.

  • When I want to PvP, I will usually go and find a high visibility world event to do. FoF is perfect for this, it may be a slog to do but you are almost guaranteed to have players show up to take a pop at you. And there is a decent reward at stake too, which gives the PvP more point and a nice payoff for the eventual victor.

    Sometimes you get a good battle, sometimes they disengage when they realise you wont be a pushover.

    Once we have the loot on board, it morphs from "sink or get sunk" to possibly pulling off a bamboozle in order to keep your loot. Rowboat plays are one of my favourites, very reliable as it seems nobody ever sees it coming (or going, as it were). The way I see it is selling the loot matters more than keeping the ship at that point.

    For me, fighting against/trying to outsmart other crews is the fun behind PvP. Loot is incidental and best used as a way to instigate PvP to begin with.

  • @clasico6730 said in How would you personally gauge the health status of PvP in general? Do you think there should be new ways to stimulate PvP (Against Reapers specifically) ? {Thought Dump} Lengthy, TL;DR at very end.:

    Well, most ships I find with treasure on, start to sail away as soon as they spot me, they could sail away for 3hs just to save around 30k worth of loot, the ships that actually chase me and want a fight, either come completely empty or just stacked with supps (they spawn, loot the OP and go chase for a fight)

    Most fights are boring because you either find completely new crews which you can single handedly sink with a few firebombs and blunder shots, or extremely skilled pvp players which take hours to sink (in most cases when I "lose" they end up either escaping or sinking me out of boredom after a long long fight)

    I've seen countless people ditch a FOF or even FOTD just to not contest it, even when they only need to kill the last boss.

    Tons of players dc or scuttling ship with out even trying once to fight back.

    It's like there are no intermediate level players around anymore, and I personally been blaming alliance servers on that for months now in this forum and reddit, can't help to picture them on discord waiting for countless hours to finally get inside the game, hours regular players use to just play as intended.

    For some context, I'm a pvpve player, who always flags as reaper, I go around farming loot to reach lvl 5 while waiting for a fight, and if I reach lvl 5 and my server is empty or no one wants a fight, that's when I appeal to server hop and I start chasing emissaries through different servers (something I personally hate but feel forced to do) I rarely attack new players or empty ships, if I do I command my friends to not sink them and on most cases I don't even fight them, just board and greet, sometimes if I'm low on supps I'll politely rob them with no guns fired unless they fire first.
    And most importantly I'm never toxic, on wins or defeats I always say gg, drop some friendly jokes, sing some songs on the ferry and try to have fun and even meet my adversaries and get to know them a bit.

    This is exactly my experience as well, and much of the reason why I take extended hiatuses from the game.

  • @clasico6730 said in How would you personally gauge the health status of PvP in general? Do you think there should be new ways to stimulate PvP (Against Reapers specifically) ? {Thought Dump} Lengthy, TL;DR at very end.:

    Well, most ships I find with treasure on, start to sail away as soon as they spot me, they could sail away for 3hs just to save around 30k worth of loot, the ships that actually chase me and want a fight, either come completely empty or just stacked with supps (they spawn, loot the OP and go chase for a fight)

    Most fights are boring because you either find completely new crews which you can single handedly sink with a few firebombs and blunder shots, or extremely skilled pvp players which take hours to sink (in most cases when I "lose" they end up either escaping or sinking me out of boredom after a long long fight)

    I've seen countless people ditch a FOF or even FOTD just to not contest it, even when they only need to kill the last boss.

    Tons of players dc or scuttling ship with out even trying once to fight back.

    It's like there are no intermediate level players around anymore, and I personally been blaming alliance servers on that for months now in this forum and reddit, can't help to picture them on discord waiting for countless hours to finally get inside the game, hours regular players use to just play as intended.

    For some context, I'm a pvpve player, who always flags as reaper, I go around farming loot to reach lvl 5 while waiting for a fight, and if I reach lvl 5 and my server is empty or no one wants a fight, that's when I appeal to server hop and I start chasing emissaries through different servers (something I personally hate but feel forced to do) I rarely attack new players or empty ships, if I do I command my friends to not sink them and on most cases I don't even fight them, just board and greet, sometimes if I'm low on supps I'll politely rob them with no guns fired unless they fire first.
    And most importantly I'm never toxic, on wins or defeats I always say gg, drop some friendly jokes, sing some songs on the ferry and try to have fun and even meet my adversaries and get to know them a bit.

    FWIW if I'm at a FoF and you show up before its finished, you'll get a fight from my crew. If you win, GG, the FoF is yours!

  • @clasico6730 "And most importantly I'm never toxic, on wins or defeats I always say gg, drop some friendly jokes, sing some songs on the ferry and try to have fun and even meet my adversaries and get to know them a bit."

    wish this attitude were more pervasive!

  • I don't believe he is genuine when he says it though. Pretty sure the "gg" has become nothing more than a force of habit.

  • @kalgert said in How would you personally gauge the health status of PvP in general? Do you think there should be new ways to stimulate PvP (Against Reapers specifically) ? {Thought Dump} Lengthy, TL;DR at very end.:

    I don't believe he is genuine when he says it though. Pretty sure the "gg" has become nothing more than a force of habit.

    low context scenarios call for frequent benefit of the doubt

    if someone opens a door for someone when both are entering a shared space there is no real value or accuracy in assuming something negative about the person or their intentions.

  • @like-500-ninjas I will join the crew :p

    I choose not to PVP in SOT. I already play so many other competitive PVP games that in this game just do PVE and chill solo or with a friend.

    I don't like fighting in SOT, however I am good at sailing.

    So you want to fight me, fine. I want to waste your time.

    Try to catch me baby. If I have loot I will stay across the edge of map and drop a chest overboard every 15 minutes especially for you, which you certainly will ignore. If after an hour or more you might happen to outplay me I gladly scuttle before you set even foot near my deck.

    But you will not sink me, I can assure you of that :D

    The PVE population will probably outlive the PVP crowd though. I barely get attacked these days and some of the PVP playerbase might shift to Skull and Bones in November.

  • Too much overfishing of PvE players. Yes, it's PvPvE, which involves PvP, but PvP players would have a much better time going after PvPers, instead of only going for PvEers, and annoying them until they quit.

    We have Reapers mark for a reason. Use it.

  • @like-500-ninjas
    Speak for your self with that statement, I personally nor my crew that I play with have ANY fun smashing defenseless sloops.
    It's boring, and it doesn't stimulate any of us in having fun/getting better PvP wise...

  • The PVE population will probably outlive the PVP crowd though. I barely get attacked these days and some of the PVP playerbase might shift to Skull and Bones in November.

    Press 'X' to doubt, Skull & Bones is already getting heavy flak, and I know you can no longer see dislikes on youtube videos, but it doesn't take 2+2 to realize the views and like ratio that its probably not receiving good reviews from the get go, and the comments reflect that... I suspect the game is going to be a flop before it's even released...

    Skull & Bones is not the same as SoT outside of being pirate themed...
    Any game that you could compared to SoT would be something like Blazing sails.
    SoT is very unique and despite its constant problems, a gem in video games.

  • @like-500-ninjas said in How would you personally gauge the health status of PvP in general? Do you think there should be new ways to stimulate PvP (Against Reapers specifically) ? {Thought Dump} Lengthy, TL;DR at very end.:

    PVP'ers don't want a fair fight. That's why Arena failed.

    They'd rather roll PVE solo sloops minding their own business and claim their awesome. Sad but true.

    There are no fair fights in organic SoT play with or without hopping pvp

    Sometimes they are competitive and people have shown to enjoy competitive fights to some degree but the priority is the treasure and commonly, perceived social gain. That's ultimately what activity regularly leans to.

    Arena struggled because of the lack of what adventure offers. The treasure steals, the stealth plays, combat was random in arena but the environment was far less random.

    What the activity shows in this game is that pvp largely leans towards stealth and ambushing.

    Outside of people making content with hot mics the hunting in this game is largely based on steals which is why high reward targets have always been the priority in this game.

    The crews that only tdm isn't a large part of the community. Nearly everyone tdms to some degree even if it's not high skill but the ones that only tdm aren't a big group. This group isn't all the same, some are very much looking for high competition and some are just messing with people. Some just enjoy the style and anything is something.

    It's fair to say a lot of people don't want or look for a fair fight, that is just what the activity shows but it has nothing to do with arena's issues and has really nothing to do with solo slooping being any kind of a specific target. There is a lot of content being made in this game so socially there is a lot of peacocking but it isn't about anything exclusive to solo slooping pvers.

    There isn't a social gain market for wrecking solo sloops.

    A solo pvper wrecking brigs and galleons has a social gain market but nobody or crew is going to get a lot of social gain from taking out solo pve sloops specifically.

  • @like-500-ninjas said in How would you personally gauge the health status of PvP in general? Do you think there should be new ways to stimulate PvP (Against Reapers specifically) ? {Thought Dump} Lengthy, TL;DR at very end.:

    My friend, if you don't think large crews seek out small crews to bully and make themselves feel good....I don't know what game you are playing.

    They don't care about social status, etc. They just want to ruin someone's day. It happens ALL. THE. TIME., yet other veteran players here will say, "I've never seen that", "I've never had a bad experience" and that's blatantly untrue for anyone who has played this game long enough to hit pirate legend.

    Taking minority of scenarios and trying to paint them as the majority while accusing people of denial/cover up/condoning is common manipulation but isn't accurate.

    I've personally encountered plenty of nonsense myself when it comes to other crews as a solo slooper but it's not a significant portion of the population or the experiences, especially in a random environment.

    Sinking a solo as an act by itself isn't toxic, it's not bullying, it's not anything negative.

    If they say nothing at all or gg or something similar and non-aggressive then it's a completely clean kill

    Then we move on to separate unpleasant from toxic.

    People being snarky, passive aggressive, condescending, cocky, arrogant, generally unpleasant isn't often a violation of the rules. Unpleasant and it's perfectly understandable if someone doesn't like it or feels off-put by it. Solution = move on from the server and the unpleasantness

    People targeting based on personal info, serious personal insults, mixing poor behavior with gameplay to where it looks like mistreatment on video, this is all stuff that is unacceptable but it's not a daily thing. Might not even be a monthly thing given the randomness of the environment. This is objective toxicity based on the rules of the game.

    Toxicity absolutely happens on the seas. Racial slurs, slurs about people's sexuality and identity, generally unacceptable verbal/text treatment of others does happen but it's not condoned by the majority, it's not done by the majority. That includes pvpers.

    The randomness of the environment and how the servers are set up cuts down most harassment within game to harassment of known people that get chased around by people looking to cause trouble against specific targets.

    Bullying falls within the unacceptable behavior and is largely not tied to gameplay. A lot of the people attempting to bully aren't even on different crews. I've seen more attempted bullying in open crew and between crews that get upset over losing/differences than bullying attempts involving pvpers from other crews.

    Adults clearly harming feelings and confidence of young people on a crew. Attempts to degrade people and make them feel useless or worthless. These type of scenarios are unacceptable and would be considered bullying.

  • @like-500-ninjas said in How would you personally gauge the health status of PvP in general? Do you think there should be new ways to stimulate PvP (Against Reapers specifically) ? {Thought Dump} Lengthy, TL;DR at very end.:

    I have to disagree with you on what is and isn't bullying/toxic behavior.

    and you are absolutely free to do so and I fully support your contributions to what you think is bullying

    Mine are based on common rules of shared experiences where behavior and gameplay are largely separated so people can enjoy gameplay but mistreatment by behavior isn't condoned during the participation.

    In my view it's very important to not loosely use accusations against others, to not paint a minority of behavior as the majority, to not blame a community for the actions of an individual. To not shame people based on gameplay. To not attempt to control others through public pressure against their preferences.

    The rules are about protecting the individual from personal attack. Gameplay on its own in this environment is not a personal violation against another. It's not abuse, bullying or mistreatment of another.

    The issue with the way you approach these topics is that there is no accountability for your accusation. It's not based on an objective approach to maintaining a healthy environment or of protecting individual from personal attack, it's entirely how you feel about something and another involving gameplay. Justice requires accountability. Integrity of approach requires accountability and consistency. There just isn't accountability in loose accusations like you use them which makes accuracy a concern. It's you giving yourself a significant amount of power that is being used as a weapon. It's a significant amount of power because public and repeated accusations have very real effects against person and community.

  • @like-500-ninjas said in How would you personally gauge the health status of PvP in general? Do you think there should be new ways to stimulate PvP (Against Reapers specifically) ? {Thought Dump} Lengthy, TL;DR at very end.:

    @wolfmanbush said in How would you personally gauge the health status of PvP in general? Do you think there should be new ways to stimulate PvP (Against Reapers specifically) ? {Thought Dump} Lengthy, TL;DR at very end.:

    @like-500-ninjas said in How would you personally gauge the health status of PvP in general? Do you think there should be new ways to stimulate PvP (Against Reapers specifically) ? {Thought Dump} Lengthy, TL;DR at very end.:

    I have to disagree with you on what is and isn't bullying/toxic behavior.

    and you are absolutely free to do so and I fully support your contributions to what you think is bullying

    Mine are based on common rules of shared experiences where behavior and gameplay are largely separated so people can enjoy gameplay but mistreatment by behavior isn't condoned during the participation.

    In my view it's very important to not loosely use accusations against others, to not paint a minority of behavior as the majority, to not blame a community for the actions of an individual. To not shame people based on gameplay. To not attempt to control others through public pressure against their preferences.

    The rules are about protecting the individual from personal attack. Gameplay on its own in this environment is not a personal violation against another. It's not abuse, bullying or mistreatment of another.

    The issue with the way you approach these topics is that there is no accountability for your accusation. It's not based on an objective approach to maintaining a healthy environment or of protecting individual from personal attack, it's entirely how you feel about something and another involving gameplay. Justice requires accountability. Integrity of approach requires accountability and consistency. There just isn't accountability in loose accusations like you use them which makes accuracy a concern. It's you giving yourself a significant amount of power that is being used as a weapon. It's a significant amount of power because public and repeated accusations have very real effects against person and community.

    "Accountability" and "justice" do not exist in this game.

    Sure it does. If I say something to attack you seriously and personally and you have that recorded and report it I will be held accountable through removal of access. That's accountability.

    If what I say to you violates your experience that is intended to be welcoming to you and one where attacks against you are not condoned and I am held accountable that is justice within the system we are a part of.

    This is the system that currently exists. It's not perfect, there will be mistakes as everything is imperfect but there is a system that supports accountability for violation of another and justice based on the accountability.

    The reason it's true accountability and justice is because no matter who you are as a person and no matter who I am as a person this system applies. Imperfect in outcome but solid in design.

  • @like-500-ninjas NO ONE Here is denying that they are Sh***ers crew out there that use hacks/target players that can't fight back. But you also GREATLY Over-exaggerated with that comment:

    " =PVP'ers don't want a fair fight. That's why Arena failed.
    They'd rather roll PVE solo sloops minding their own business and claim their awesome. Sad but true."

    Normally one of two things happen:

    • They get banned repeatedly for harassing/spawn camping one day or the other.
    • They quit sooner or later once they realize that there's really nothing more going for them in reality.

    Most PvP community's do not support those kinds of behavior:
    Again, let me elaborate that NO ONE is saying this doesn't exist/occur, but to make it out as if ''Every PvP aim is to roll PvE Solo Sloopers'' is just blatantly wrong and harmful to state.
    You are just dividing people and pushing people away from PvP by stating these harmful comments.

    I could go out and state that PvE players are more toxic in my experience, and that's not even a debate from my experience. I've got plenty of footage/evidence, don't worry about that.
    Good humble PvP crews drop a "GG" after a fight, a quick mic conversation about our experience and who we are, before we go our separate ways.

    You steam roll a PvE crew, they will cry, call you homophobic slurs, say how ''toxic'' you are because you chain shotted them and sunk them doing a world event/emissary quest when your flying a reapers flag. Then it starts to get ugly with clashes, next thing you know PvE play the victim game on social media claiming how ''toxic'' PvP'ers are, lets not beat around the bush, that happens way to often.

  • @ix-indi-xi Then put up a Reaper's mark, and encourage others PvPers to do it too. Then you can all PvP 24/7.

  • @mrat13 You haven't read the post have you?

  • @like-500-ninjas said in How would you personally gauge the health status of PvP in general? Do you think there should be new ways to stimulate PvP (Against Reapers specifically) ? {Thought Dump} Lengthy, TL;DR at very end.:

    Nah no exaggeration in my experience. It has happened to me and others FAR too frequently.

    If I had a dollar for every time I was doing a gold hoarder mission on a small island only to look up and see a fully crewed Legend Galleon rolling in with insults spewing through their hot mics as they try to blast my empty, anchored sloop like it takes skill....I'd be a rich man. And experiences like that are toxic to me, regardless of what the "rules" say. When you set out to intentionally ruin someone else's day, that's toxic AND bullying. Call it pirating. Call it PVPVE. Call it whatever you want to hide behind so you can sleep at night. It is what it is. And then they get mad when the player scuttles before they can land a chain shot on a stationary, unmanned ship and troll you with toxic messages through Xbox Live after you've left the server. Yeah, that's real wholesome.

    I've played since day one. I've never encountered a friendly or even decent PVP crew. They have ALL been incredibly toxic, and for some reason when I say that people want to come in here and say that's an exaggeration like they were sitting right next to me when it happened and have first hand knowledge. "Oh you're dividing people". How so? By sharing my experience? People are free to make their own choices. There's posts here all the time, one just posted yesterday, from new players who are getting wrecked on the seas by toxic crews. And if you want to go by the "rules" and say that harassing new players is within the code, then you should also be fine with telling those new players up front "you're gonna get rolled...repeatedly...and that's just part of the game." So stop with the "PVP'ers are angelic players" junk.

    Those things all happen, and that's not an opinion. I've had them all happen to me hundreds, if not thousands, of times on the seas. And you wonder why people dislike PVP players? 🙄

    Why do you participate in an experience where you believe so many of the other participants are toxic and that they mistreat/bully vulnerable people?

    Do you stand by what you view as decency? do you stand by your accusations? At what point do you walk away from an environment that engages in what you believe to be significant amounts of toxicity?

    At what point is the entertainment not worth the cost of the toxic environment you believe it harbors?

  • @ix-indi-xi being honest mate, at least from my experience the pver's who refuse to fight back is because they're broken from PVP players who refuse to get the idea that they don't want to fight. When you ignore players insistence that they don't want to fight and sink them anyway, there's a very solid chance that it just makes them stop caring, even more so if its after continual instances of being almost instantly killed because somebody snuck up on them while they were doing something else and didn't have 1000% paranoid vigilance active. i understand your desperate for a fight, but maybe the problem is you don't acknowledge your not going to get one until after you've sunken another ship.

  • Here's my two cents.

    In short, I think that there could/should be more incentives to do PvP, than there are now. However, and this is a big however, I think that many of the hardcore PvP community are mistaken in their presumptions that SoT should be as PvP heavy as games such a R6S, CSGO, and the like. I think there are a lot of over expectations as to what PvP should like in this game, and that in turn sets up for a lot of disappointment. SoT was never intended (much less advertised) to be this uber-competitive game, like people are trying to make it out to be. It was always advertised as an open, shared-world pirate adventure with elements of PvP as well as PvE.

    When you have a grand majority of the community being predominately PvE, it makes sense that many aren't super into PvP. At the same time though, it's understandable that PvP players want competition to test their skills, but I don't think this game was really meant for that in the first place. I think that Arena was created with PvP players in mind, but look how that turned out - a largely dead game mode, where PvP players circumnavigated how the mode was intended to be played, almost regularly.

    All that said, I think both sides need to realize that due to the nature of this game, not everyone is always going to get what they want; PvP players or PvE players - PvE players aren't always going to have chill sessions without PvP encounters, and PvP players aren't always going to have action-packed sessions where they can test their mettle against "worthy" players.

  • @nova-shino

    There are two scenarios where I don't fight back:

    1. I'm solo slooping with little to no loot to my name and a galley decides to pick a fight because of coarse they did.
    2. My ship's already done for and I'm impressed. This happened recently when I was on the back end of an outpost digging up a chest of ancient tributes I stashed in anticipation of a fight with a ship that had since been sunk. I came back and sold the chest just to notice someone anchored there with a default ship set and my ship completely gone, to which the guy just apologized. I didn't hear a single cannon shot or explosion so I can only assume he bucketed my ship full of water or something.

    Though in general once my ship goes down I'll stop fighting and just chill with an instrument. Usually they still try to kill me but sometimes they just let me do my thing and I find a rowboat to paddle into the horizon.

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