There's No Excuse Why Rare Can't Add Whales (and other marine life)

  • This post will serve as an argument as to why Rare absolutely can and should add whales along with other marine life to the game. I will outline some common arguments I've seen against adding whales, as well as some suggestions of different ways they can be implemented.

    First off, I think we can all agree when it comes to the ocean in video games, Sea of Thieves is unmatched with its water. But it's always been a shame that its underwater, for the most part, has been sub-par (get it?) with what I think it is capable of. Now, this has improved a bit since the release of the siren shrines and treasuries, which have fantastic underwater areas, but these are only select locations around the map that feel more like instanced zones than a consistent underwater biome.

    Now, I'm not suggesting to make the entire sea floor one massive underwater siren shrine type area where people spend more time underwater than above, but rather I'm suggesting to add a bit more life to the areas outside of the shrines and treasuries.

    With the Sea of Thieves being the most mysterious, treacherous place in the entire ocean with the baddest pirates who spend most of their lives at sea, what's under its water should tell as much of a story and garner as much excitement as what's above water as well.

    One of the primary ways I think excitement and character can be added to the underwater is to add marine life. When it comes to consistent underwater life, we have sharks, sirens, and JPEGs of un-interactable fish. That's it. The Kraken (outside of tall tales) doesn't even have a true underwater model, and Megalodons are an event rather than a consistent form of marine life.

    So why shouldn't they add whales and other sea creatures to the game?

    Well, because whaling is a horrible practice that Rare doesn't want to promote

    I agree. But sharks are also harpooned, and sharkfinned, including endangered species. Why does one type of marine life get precedence over another?

    Well, sharks are more aggressive/scary, and we have to kill sharks in-game out of self defense, but a whale in-game wouldn't be as aggressive

    Both animals are predators that eat other marine life. Sharks have an incredibly bad stigma due to popular media, and are far less aggressive in real life than in-game. Keep in mind, it was Rare's conscious decision to reinforce the negative stigma of sharks by choosing to make them all aggressive and violent in-game. They didn't have to be always aggressive and Rare could have opted for a more neutral approach. So clearly they were willing to promote and even encourage killing sharks in game for food and other rewards, but are afraid to do so with whales.

    Well, the sharks in-game like Megalodons are fantasy sharks so it's not the same, and they can't be compared to real sharks

    So by that same logic, why not create a mythical leviathan-like whale creature that exists only within the Sea of Thieves universe, that can be fought and killed for rewards like its counterparts? Then they wouldn't be the same as real whales, right?

    Here's several different ways they could implement whales as well as ideas for other marine life:

    • Make them friendly, unkillable creatures. Maybe add a gargantuan-sized whale that no cannons or bullets can pierce its skin. Maybe it has barnacled chests stuck to it that you can help remove and keep. You get loot and also help a sea creature. This helps spread a positive message about helping marine life while also having a reward incentive.

    • Friendly, unkillable belugas/dolphins that can save you from drowning or carry you back to the surface (similar to mermaids).

    • Aggressive, killable giant whales. They could damage or try to capsize your boat, similar to a megalodon fight.

    • Neutral, killable whales that only attack when threatened/attacked first.

    • Mythical, leviathan-like whales that are distinct enough to where Rare doesn't feel bad about players killing them (megalodons).

    • Giant, friendly manta rays that you can hitch an underwater ride on or something.

    • Aggressive giant eels. Maybe found more in siren/coral areas that attack you like sharks but have a more hit-and-run approach or an electric attack?

    • Sea Monsters Any variety of sea monsters that can be inspired by different folklore, as well as entirely original mythical creatures. Could be highly aggressive monsters that are tracked and hunted for the Hunters Call.

    • More fish species. Actual interactable underwater fish that can be caught with a net or cage similar to pigs/chickens/snakes and turned in to Merchants/Hunters, or added to an aquarium in your customizable Captain's Chamber.

    • Cute octopi, cuttlefish, or squid. Similar to the catchable fish above, can be caught and turned in to Merchants/Hunters. The squid could ink you (covering your screen similar to vomit) when trying to chase and catch them.

    • Crabs (in the Shores of Plenty?)

    • Hermit crabs (in The Wilds?)

    • Rock crabs (in the Devil's Shroud?)

    • Horseshoe crabs (in Ancient Isles?)

    • Chest/Skull Hermit crabs - crabs that inhabit a chest or a skull and run around that you have to chase and break them free from the loot (with/without having to kill them).

    • Giant crabs

    • More crabs

    • Giant oysters that can be opened to contain pearls or other small loot.

    • Sea turtles (unkillable, serve as ambience?)

    • Sea jellies that serve as deep sea/siren area land mines, or can be used as a trampoline-like propulsion.

    • Giant anglerfish that use their light to appear as a glint of underwater treasure. As you get closer, they ambush you.

    • Flounders or flounder-like creatures that disguise in the sand. Could be caught or just be ambient.

    • Sea birds. Actual birds that sit on the water or try to catch fish, land on your ship, and actual mobs that fly around islands. Seagulls, Pelicans, Parrots, etc.

    Keep in mind, these are all speculative suggestions for future content, not an all-in-one demand. I understand that this is extra server load, and the server always comes first. But let's not kid ourselves here. Rare is a multi-million dollar company, and if they were able to implement new enemy spawns such as phantoms, sirens, and ocean crawlers, there is no reason why they cannot add more to the sea life spawn pool instead of just primarily sharks. I've worked in the game industry long enough to know that this isn't an unrealistic task, but rather just one Rare deems isn't a priority. But I would wager that for an ocean-venturing game, there should be a lot more to it than just what's on the surface.

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  • In my view the whale topic in regards to the game isn't a complex one I view it as risk/reward just like the foundation of the game. It's high risk for drama/negativity and low reward. It's not gonna be a huge draw as the people that will ohhh and ahhh over whales in the game are already here. It'll do what happens anytime something flashy is added, the people that quit for a year or two at a time will hang out again for a week or two before they bounce, there just isn't any reason to think whales lead to any sort of longevity/reward

    The idea of peaceful content involving whales isn't really an issue but even bringing them in is gonna get that whole debate stirred up like a hornet nest in a cattle gate.

    More sea life in general would be pretty to look at but the servers are getting worse and worse and worse as we go along and that just seems like more strain on an experience that already struggles significantly with performance.

  • @wolfmanbush I see your point but I think of adding whales and other creatures as less of a marvel feature and more of an element of permanent immersion and interaction that is additive to the game. It leads to more time being spent in essentially the gray space of the game.

    I don't think peaceful whale content will stir as much of a debate as violent whale content. After all, there are ways to implement it along with other marine life in a more benign way.

    The bottom line is: If people accept that the sharks were designed to be killed. That is, designed to be aggressive and as enemies that are fought and killed and have no qualms about doing so, then I don't see the problem in adding more sea life that is potentially friendly, wholesome, and/or unkillable.

  • Unfortunately if you kill a mosquito you are a hero, if you kill a butterfly you are a villain. I'll never understand thinking like that...

  • @targasbr said in There's No Excuse Why Rare Can't Add Whales (and other marine life):

    Unfortunately if you kill a mosquito you are a hero, if you kill a butterfly you are a villain. I'll never understand thinking like that...

    Well, I do. One sucks your blood and makes you itchy and the other doesn't...

  • @scurvywoof said in There's No Excuse Why Rare Can't Add Whales (and other marine life):

    @targasbr said in There's No Excuse Why Rare Can't Add Whales (and other marine life):

    Unfortunately if you kill a mosquito you are a hero, if you kill a butterfly you are a villain. I'll never understand thinking like that...

    Well, I do. One sucks your blood and makes you itchy and the other doesn't...

    alt text

  • @targasbr said in There's No Excuse Why Rare Can't Add Whales (and other marine life):

    Unfortunately if you kill a mosquito you are a hero, if you kill a butterfly you are a villain. I'll never understand thinking like that...

    One carries disease (many of which are deadly to other creatures) and feeds off other life forms, the other is one of the creatures that fertilizes plant life (like bees) which makes food possible for many other creatures...including ourselves. If butterflies went instinct, so would many other creatures and plant life....possibly even humans.

    If you can't make that distinction then that tells a lot about you.

  • @dlchief58 said in There's No Excuse Why Rare Can't Add Whales (and other marine life):

    @targasbr said in There's No Excuse Why Rare Can't Add Whales (and other marine life):

    Unfortunately if you kill a mosquito you are a hero, if you kill a butterfly you are a villain. I'll never understand thinking like that...

    One carries disease (many of which are deadly to other creatures) and feeds off other life forms, the other is one of the creatures that fertilizes plant life (like bees) which makes food possible for many other creatures...including ourselves. If butterflies went instinct, so would many other creatures and plant life....possibly even humans.

    If you can't make that distinction then that tells a lot about you.

    If a life is only valid when it's useful to you then that tells a lot about you.

  • Server load

  • @targasbr said in There's No Excuse Why Rare Can't Add Whales (and other marine life):

    @dlchief58 said in There's No Excuse Why Rare Can't Add Whales (and other marine life):

    @targasbr said in There's No Excuse Why Rare Can't Add Whales (and other marine life):

    Unfortunately if you kill a mosquito you are a hero, if you kill a butterfly you are a villain. I'll never understand thinking like that...

    One carries disease (many of which are deadly to other creatures) and feeds off other life forms, the other is one of the creatures that fertilizes plant life (like bees) which makes food possible for many other creatures...including ourselves. If butterflies went instinct, so would many other creatures and plant life....possibly even humans.

    If you can't make that distinction then that tells a lot about you.

    If a life is only valid when it's useful to you then that tells a lot about you.

    Yes it does, and that is that I am capable of rational thought.

  • @dlchief58 said in There's No Excuse Why Rare Can't Add Whales (and other marine life):

    @targasbr said in There's No Excuse Why Rare Can't Add Whales (and other marine life):

    @dlchief58 said in There's No Excuse Why Rare Can't Add Whales (and other marine life):

    @targasbr said in There's No Excuse Why Rare Can't Add Whales (and other marine life):

    Unfortunately if you kill a mosquito you are a hero, if you kill a butterfly you are a villain. I'll never understand thinking like that...

    One carries disease (many of which are deadly to other creatures) and feeds off other life forms, the other is one of the creatures that fertilizes plant life (like bees) which makes food possible for many other creatures...including ourselves. If butterflies went instinct, so would many other creatures and plant life....possibly even humans.

    If you can't make that distinction then that tells a lot about you.

    If a life is only valid when it's useful to you then that tells a lot about you.

    Yes it does, and that is that I am capable of rational thought.

    I don't think we should go into points like this here on the forum, but I'll tell you that several people in the history of humanity have had this same "rational" thought, and they are quite hated.

  • Good lord what did this topic spiral into

    Whales, regardless of implementation, are already a can of worms to go into.

    "Peaceful, unkillable creatures" in a world where our mere survival and piratical functions are limited to fruit, fish caught on a fishing rod, remains of sea monsters and animals that may spawn on an island you're on, is quite illogical. Outside of the un-ineractiable fish that can be found near the shores of many islands most entities can be damaged either by accident, by obligation, or... just because you can.

    It will be inevitable that someone brings up the concern of unkillable whales being spotted on the seas, to the point that it will cause unwanted and unneeded bickering and arguing in the game's community, all the way down to "why was it even implemented?"

    Immersion at sea is not a good enough reason to introduce more sea life, they have to have a function, or be insignificant enough to the game's world that it can work (ala the small schools of fish found at the shorelines and docks of several islands). Sea of Thieves is beautiful, but it is beauty that works into the game's functions and keeps a dynamic pace within all of that. Looking at a whale you can't hurt might look nice, but it's going to be a giant fish that gets in the way of a naval battle that might cost you a fight you didn't want to lose (and the Megalodon is in that same ball park don't you worry.)

    The seas, and the servers, are busy enough making so much of the game beautiful in its current state (which is not a good state, mind you), let's let new things happen when the devs, and the servers, are ready to let it happen, besides, there are more important matters to have implemented/fixed in the game over having a large fish roaming the seas and tiny creatures scuttling about islands.

  • @nex-stargaze Not afraid of arguments, if you do, stay away from the forum.
    Hate to see an idea being dismissed purely because of the possible arguments it would bring, so? We'll live

  • No excuse to not add whales?

    Because we don’t need an issue from people complaining about hunting, shooting or harpooning whales. Got enough of that in real life

  • @phantaxus that's what I'm saying. If we can't support 6 ships then we probably don't need to be jamming more stuff like this (stuff with no actual function to the game but probably pretty taxing on servers) into the game. It's unfortunate because I think it would be great.

  • @bupzy the more things that get added, the more optimization and stabilization the game requires. and right now, adding whales and a bunch of other life, will only make the 5 minute black screens even worse. I would absolutely love more sea life added, and I think they will add more, it just takes time and a lot of work on servers.

  • @faceyourdemon said in There's No Excuse Why Rare Can't Add Whales (and other marine life):

    Not afraid of arguments, if you do, stay away from the forum.
    Hate to see an idea being dismissed purely because of the possible arguments it would bring, so? We'll live

    Maintaining a shared family friendly environment where there is a priority of peace within co-existence is a delicate process.

    Imo everyone is free to have their opinions and they have their individual voice but content in this game specifically should be created to avoid getting involved in known contentious issues. That's how escapism is preserved and that's how a mostly pleasant shared environment can be maintained.

  • @faceyourdemon said in There's No Excuse Why Rare Can't Add Whales (and other marine life):

    @nex-stargaze Not afraid of arguments, if you do, stay away from the forum.
    Hate to see an idea being dismissed purely because of the possible arguments it would bring, so? We'll live

    We still have PvE server/peacemaker enthusiasts trying to make suggestions and put blame onto any player that participates in an unfair PvP battle in Adventure, and we still have PvP/Arena enthusiasts trying to make suggestions and point the finger at the devs for not making more content that guarantees PvP or edges players into PvP more steadily (and prevent them from evading the inevitable sinking from a skilled server hopper like them).

    We still have people arguing over the functions of the IPG for Ramsey's sake. EXCUSE ME if I don't want whale slaughter discussion to be added to the pile of arguments these forums will endlessly have.

  • @burnbacon Didn’t even try reading the post, did you? That way of thinking is incredibly biased and suggests there is no peaceful way to add whales. And the fact that sharks were designed to be enemies with rewards for killing them, which are also an animal suffering from harpooning shows this bias. Either decide that none of the harpooning/hunting of marine life is okay in a video game, or that it is a fantasy environment where it is passable. You shouldn’t get to pick and choose which endangered, struggling marine life is okay to kill in a video game while disallowing others.

  • It would be nice in theory but so long as there are server issues I do not see this helping performance issues in any way, so I'd rather pass.

  • I find it so funny, when people say "We can't have that in the game, because killing whales is bad and people will be offended". First of all, there is no reason to pander to a minority of people who can get offended by a game. Also it is extremely hypocritical to say that killing whales is bad, but killing megalodons is somehow much better.

    We have weird looking fish. We have kraken. We have damn glowing megalodons. Devs could easily add more variety to marine life, including some bigger creatures. It doesn't have to be literal whales. Hell, just reskin a megalodon and make him friendly.

  • @wolfmanbush I agree that we dont need real life problems here (even though the devs time after time showed otherwise) but hunting whales in a pirate game is not a far strech.

    Yes people hunted whales, same for anything else they could grab, do we need to cancel fishing and hunting animals in SoT?
    Ive seen people saying shooting pets from the cannons is animals cruelty, so if I hunt a whale in a game means I dont care about real whales?
    This level of extremism by itself denies escapism! And that is the irony.

    And my point stands, arguments/ debates can contribute tremendously to the forum, as long as it remains respectful.

    @nex-stargaze I hear you but hunting animals in a video game is not slaughter.

    Long time ago ive made a post of an idea to go around it and do something good, a TallTale about a whale who died and got possessed by evil spirits.
    Hunter's Call is sending us to investigate Nidhog's fate and fight him in order to free his soul.

  • @bupzy said in There's No Excuse Why Rare Can't Add Whales (and other marine life):

    Didn’t even try reading the post, did you? That way of thinking is incredibly biased and suggests there is no peaceful way to add whales. And the fact that sharks were designed to be enemies with rewards for killing them, which are also an animal suffering from harpooning shows this bias. Either decide that none of the harpooning/hunting of marine life is okay in a video game, or that it is a fantasy environment where it is passable. You shouldn’t get to pick and choose which endangered, struggling marine life is okay to kill in a video game while disallowing others.

    You are viewing it through the lens of your personal morality and viewing what you believe to be hypocrisy.

    When maintaining a shared environment it's an imperfect process. Those that maintain it will need to remove their personal views on specific topics from the decision making process. It all comes down to gauging risk of conflict vs reward to the environment.

    The focus isn't right and wrong, consistency within morality, these are not universal. The focus is creating a fun, safe, and mostly peaceful escapism experience where the individual has the opportunity to participate without being surrounded by personal attacks and conflict that makes the experience less pleasant.

    Someone could say "if it's not about right and wrong or moral consistency then what about this.." in regards to something extreme but when focusing on the individual's safety and the pleasantness of the environment that offers their experience it handles mistreatment and extreme social views that would target or clearly harm specific people or groups within the community. This is a welcoming place and one where the majority values a sea filled with all different types of people that follow the rules of the game.

  • @wolfmanbush The issue is the argument “because harpooning whales is bad” which suggests a few things:

    A) That we, the players are going to engage in the harpooning of whales and thus contributing to whaling

    B) It turns a blind eye to the design of sharks being aggressive enemies with rewards for killing, and the equally horrible practice of harpooning sharks

    C) Once again, it suggests that there is no creative or peaceful way to implement other marine life. I’ve outlined how, with a game mechanic, you can promote the exact opposite message of harming whales

  • I'm not sure there is enough purpose to these additions to justify the server load. I agree that the ambience would be awesome, but unless the additions create some tangible interaction then you are probably making a net-loss situation where the ambience is outweighed by the server issues created. Taking whales as an example, I think folding them into the game would have to look like a world event or something related to a voyage (like if they ever expand the Hunter's Call, a voyage could be to travel into the belly of a whale to get something, etc). This way there are clearer parameters around when this asset is used and there is only 1 to 5 (at most) on a server at once. Or I could see something like a spectral whale that eats your boat to transport you to a tall tale server. Something like that. Otherwise you have a ton of assets milling about on a server adding load, and not really doing anything other than existing or adding novelty.

    Also it doesn't really matter anyones personal opinions of killing whales here. A large enough swath of the actual world does not like the idea and there is a stigma around it. The developers aren't gonna walk into that mess, so there is probably no option to ever make killable whales (or other sea mammals for that matter).

  • @nex-stargaze

    I never argued that adding whales and other marine life is the biggest priority for Rare. Of course server stability comes first. But I am arguing that adding life and more content to the gray space of the game is more important than it seems.

    In game design, when you have an open world environment, a fundamental goal is to reduce the amount of gray area in your map (aka empty space). Gray area creates more downtime between actual points of interest, and breaks immersion. It is the bane of every open world game.

    A good example of minimizing this can be seen in games like Elden Ring or Breath of the Wild, which minimize gray area to the point where there is always something to interact with within a short reach, rarely having moments of when you’re in an area devoid of content.

    Rare has already taken steps to address this, as siren shrines, treasuries, and spanish forts are strategically implemented in “in-between” zones of the sea to minimize the downtime of having emptiness.

    I’m simply arguing for more of this, just in the largely barren underwater areas.

  • @bupzy said in There's No Excuse Why Rare Can't Add Whales (and other marine life):

    @nex-stargaze

    I never argued that adding whales and other marine life is the biggest priority for Rare. Of course server stability comes first. But I am arguing that adding life and more content to the gray space of the game is more important than it seems.

    In game design, when you have an open world environment, a fundamental goal is to reduce the amount of gray area in your map (aka empty space). Gray area creates more downtime between actual points of interest, and breaks immersion. It is the bane of every open world game.

    A good example of minimizing this can be seen in games like Elden Ring or Breath of the Wild, which minimize gray area to the point where there is always something to interact with within a short reach, rarely having moments of when you’re in an area devoid of content.

    Rare has already taken steps to address this, as siren shrines, treasuries, and spanish forts are strategically implemented in “in-between” zones of the sea to minimize the downtime of having emptiness.

    I’m simply arguing for more of this, just in the largely barren underwater areas.

    See, you say there is grey space but outside of the borders between regions or the Shores of Gold, I most definitely don't see it, there is an island you can get to within 2 minutes, whether you decide to interact with that or not is your own decision. Yes, voyages will send you to islands far away from your current location at times (to an irritating degree), but that doesn't mean there is a lot of grey space.

    There are rocks to avoid, and islands nearby that you can stop at/cannon yourself off towards in order to grab supplies, interesting/useful pieces of treasure, tools like Tridents of Dark Tides, gunpowder barrels, even a skeleton captain that could lead you to even better goodies than usual.

    Grey space in Sea of Thieves is purely over-exaggerated, there is an island fairly close to where you are at almost all times, you just never choose to do anything at it because it's irrelevant to your voyage/objective. Which is why the addition of extra sea/island life is unnecessary to me. Every island is close to each other, the voyages and quests make us think otherwise, but you'd be surprised how often you need to pay attention to where you're sailing. To check horizons for other ships, to not run into rocks, to not run into islands, to find shipwrecks or barrels o' plenty, to adjust your wheel while sailing northwest specifically, etc.

    Extra environment is always appreciated, but in this game's case, it's not necessary in the slightest.

  • @nex-stargaze

    Absolutely. But dive underwater for a few seconds and what do you see in almost every case? Nothing.

    This is vertical gray space, not horizontal.

  • @bupzy

    That's what we call a necessary evil in these cases.

    I don't think Xbox Ones are going to appreciate a Sea of Thieves with an active sea bed spanning all corners of it (even Sunken Pearl and the entirety of the Sunken Kingdom are pushing that idea pretty far as it is, rip stability).

  • @nex-stargaze

    I said before that I’m not asking for a massive siren shrine area underwater.

    I’m simply asking for some more content and character outside of the siren areas underneath the water. More spawns of other marine life, and more underwater events.

  • @bupzy here is an excuse, it takes dev time away from other more valuable projects.

  • @lackbarwastaken Minimizing the amount empty gray area in your game isn’t valuable? There’s a very clear trend with successful, critically acclaimed open world games that do this well, and others that do not.

  • @bupzy "more valuable"

  • @lackbarwastaken Such as? Aside from server stability, hitreg and all that, I’d like to know what else content-wise is more valuable than filling white space.

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