People getting banned for taking down PVE Alliance servers?

@jumbie7311 Agreed. Ultimately, alliance servers (no matter what views are applied to them) are a medium for people to play and enjoy the game, and I think those are the metrics that are looked at most, and what matter most.

@theblackbellamy said in People getting banned for taking down PVE Alliance servers?:

@v*ca-hombre said:

I attack ships in normal servers almost all the time. What I've learned from doing this over the years is that this can anger some people. So, should I not? Should I stop attacking, solely because it might anger them, even though their anger wasn't what I was after?

I like tough fights and being focused by multiple ships. These servers are unfairly grinding massive amounts of loot and I want to steal it all, like the non-lovable-schlub pirate that I am. I've been booster-busting since I was inspired by Sandy Ravage in my very early CoD days lol. Is the alliance going to be angered by the fact that I infiltrated them dishonestly? Yeah, probably. I'm aware of that.

But if that's all I'm doing (i.e. no hot-mic'ing, no pirate-chat/RODL-spam, no bucketing, no other forms of taunting); if I only join their vc/party during the set-up, then leave some time after & mind my own business while carrying about my PvP, they really have no other reason to be angry. They certainly have no reason to call it harassment.

Unfortunately, that's not how Rare sees it.

We, as people, play video games. What we do in those video games effect other people. That's real life. It's up to you how you choose to handle that.
However, the company has every right to draw the lines of acceptability where they deem it to be.
Intentionally deceiving people outside of a video game, in order to infiltrate their organized fun time, is a line of ethics you may be willing to cross - but it is a breech. And it is deemed as inappropriate by some.
Up to you what you do with any and all of that information. Everyone just needs to understand that, while we're just playing games - the other pixels on the screen are connected to other real-life people.

I, myself, prefer to only engage other players that want to engage (and that's not an absolute rule I follow unconditionally, so, I'm no hero, haha). That's my choice. It makes me very happy. And it doesn't bother anyone else - which makes me happy. You can either choose to be concerned with other people's feelings - or not. We all draw the line somewhere.
It's really not a big deal, but society, in general, and then companies who run services that we use draw the line somewhere and it's up to the individual as to whether they want to act on those lines and/or across them.

I'd start at whether or not you (universal you, as I'm not simply targeting any individual here) considering deceiving others is appropriate or not. You can add a context of a game. And then you can add the context of going outside of the game in order to disrupt an organization.

And then you can either justify your own position. Or the position of others. It's up to you. And how others react to you, is up to them.
Pretty simple. And I'm glad you finally got a response from the team about your question.

@electricknights said:

I'd start at whether or not you... considering deceiving others is appropriate or not. You can add a context of a game. And then you can add the context of going outside of the game in order to disrupt an organization.

Well, let's unpack that. Is deceiving others appropriate? There are situations in which deceit is done to harm, and situations in which deceit may even save lives. There are too many nuances for a blanket "yes" or "no" to suffice, and so you bring up a good point, that context matters.

So lets add the context of the game. Sea of Thieves. A game of piracy, where players have the freedom to attack or cooperate with each other, form shaky alliances or betray each other. Lying in this game, about the game, is appropriate.

Now lets add the context of going into a discord vc or xbox party. The deceit is not occurring in-game, but exactly what lie is being told? And how dire are the consequences?

Giving this proper context, yes, you are "going outside of the game," but you are only being deceitful about whatever is going on in-game. The lie you are telling is, in and of itself, as benign as other lies you would tell in-game, in order to steal someone's loot. But more importantly, this sort of deceit is far from anything that I would consider "harassment."

Everyone just needs to understand that, while we're just playing games - the other pixels on the screen are connected to other real-life people... I, myself, prefer to only engage other players that want to engage... That's my choice. It makes me very happy. And it doesn't bother anyone else - which makes me happy. You can either choose to be concerned with other people's feelings - or not. We all draw the line somewhere.

I respect that.

I don't attack: obvious noobs; tall talers; sloops when I'm in a larger ship. I don't chase for long. I leave low-level, non-reaper emissaries alone (albeit temporarily). I understand the importance of leaving certain types of players be, and allowing them to grow. It benefits the environment and helps the game stay alive. On the other hand, pre-made grind servers are bad for the game's health. They take activity out of normal servers, they devalue cosmetics and titles, and they make a mockery of emissary leaderboards. Not saying this is a reason to go out of your way to target them, but this is a reason that I feel they don't need to be spared, like the other groups I mentioned.

I have no issue with organic alliances. I like them. They add another level of silliness and suspense to the game, and I always enjoy them more when I get betrayed first. And if they don't betray me, I'll most likely betray them, unless they fit in the aforementioned categories. Or if it's a crew full of kids or a family, I'll play nice.

I've also come across (via merge or hop) crews who were already allied. These include organic alliances as well as pre-made ones. And my experiences from fighting both is what would have motivated me to infiltrate/betray a server. It's just way too fun.

They have the advantage in numbers and supplies, so I don't view it as punching down. They sail & attack in tandem, or use 8-man galleys with perma-boarders or strategize to create traps. Sure, some of them have disbanded easily, but then some have spent the whole session trying to bully me out of the server lol.

Anyway, I agree it is important to consider feelings; and it's reasonable to not want to PvP, or not want to have your alliance betrayed. But imo, in this game, these feelings are no more or less valid than one's desire to PvP or infiltrate and betray. And while you could add the context of the deceit happening outside of the game, you shouldn't lose sight of the context that the deceit is still about whatever is occurring in-game.

Had support told me that my intent was to be deceitful, I would have said yes. All in the sport of the game, but yes. However, I was told that my intent in infiltrating and betraying, despite remaining polite and sportsmanlike, would be to harass. And that's good enough for me to pull the plug on the idea. Not because I agree, but because I like all my stuff.

@maximusarael020 said in People getting banned for taking down PVE Alliance servers?:

I guess, reading through all the responses, I'm on the fence about this. I don't know if I believe the initial story (I'm guessing there was more going on than just betraying an Alliance Server), however should there be repercussions? In essence, you are absolutely targeting a specific group of people. If you replace "Alliance Servers" with a "Pride Server" or "female server" where a group of individuals created a curated space for similar and specifically-qualified people to play together, and someone specifically infiltrated that server by way of deceit, then wouldn't that be specifically targeting? You discovered a group that wanted their own space, you invaded it through deception and then violated their conditions for accepting you into their group. Now, Alliance Servers aren't a protected class by any means, so the analogy isn't perfect, but it does call into question what in this scenario would be considered "targeting?" Because you are going above and beyond to find a particular sub-set of the population and specifically engaging with them, would that not be targeting, and in kind harassment?

I dunno. I see it from both sides. It's tricky, and grey, and perhaps should be outside the purview of Rare to monitor, but it is interesting.

I mean if we are going to say that a group has been "targeted" as reason for a ban for attacking alliance servers then I think it's time the ability to completely lock down a server be looked at as a MM exploit and patched out. Sure they could go back to the old ways of asking every ship on a server they start on to donate their ship, but then there are now grounds for ban via intentional exploiting.

Point is they are abusing MM to play in a way Rare never intended. Rare says they are monitoring it all and the impact, yet continually make balancing decisions based on this play style and allowing it to continue to the point of an outside player getting banned for accessing a PUBLIC server and sinking ships to sell stolen loot and flags seems absurd.

Once again, as someone who plays in alliance servers, and was staff in two large ones, I HIGHLY doubt that we are being given the full story here. Because alliance servers generally do not report people to Rare for doing PVP at the servers. They kick them from the servers, block them from the Discord, and move on. Not report to Rare. Blocking a player from the Alliance Discord is enough to keep them off of any further servers.

Ships that 'go rogue' is not an uncommon risk or occurrence, and while it can be annoying to lose a server to one, it does not warrant a report. Blocking from the Discord is enough. It would take much more toxic language and behavior then 'just going PvP' and shutting the server down. Other servers can be, and often are, restarted.

It is doubtful that any player was actually blocked from the game for 'breaking no rules' and 'Just PVP'. It is far more likely that there is more to the story with things that happened behind the scene/off screen, that we're not being told about here.

@vac-hombre "And since I don't see regular posts about people stumbling into alliance servers"

You can't stumble into them because they keep all 5 ships manned at all times.
Also i can't @ you cause the profanity filter won't allow me to type your name lol.

@tre-oni you don't know how alliance servers are set up.

@lackbarwastaken And you do?
Please enlighten us on how they are then.

@kommodoreyenser said in People getting banned for taking down PVE Alliance servers?:

I mean if we are going to say that a group has been "targeted" as reason for a ban for attacking alliance servers then I think it's time the ability to completely lock down a server be looked at as a MM exploit and patched out.

I apologize, I'm not sure what this means. I do think any exploit the game has should be patched out (except sword-hop lunge for speed through water. Keep that forever). The quick-fire double-gunning exploit, whatever "duplicate flags" are that people talk about, any of them. Is the "lock-down" server exploit the one that streamer used to do that FOTD stack? At any rate, if Alliance servers are using an exploit or glitch, any exploits and glitches should be patched out. However, that is for Rare to know about and decide what to do, not for any individual player to punish a player or group for using an exploit besides reporting it to Rare.

Like I said, I'm on the fence about this situation, and I do think that there is more to the story than "I sunk people in an Alliance server and got banned for it." Other people who utilize Alliance servers have stated that people "going rogue" is not uncommon, and therefore you would think that this issue would come up a lot more if it were true that this is the reason the OP got banned. Since it does not, I'm guessing there is more to the story. But I think the overall point of what I was saying is that what they did does seem to be targeting a population that goes beyond the general scope of the game. The OP, in every sense, tracked down a user-base outside of the game and used means to intentionally target those players for PVP. Would it be different if OP really disliked 1 particular players and found them on Discord, lied and misrepresented themselves to getting invited to that player's group or game, and then intentionally hunted that player? In essence, what OP did is still intersecting a community outside of the game and then utilized tactics to specifically "attack"/disrupt them. Could that be grounds for punishment from Rare? Potentially. It certainly seems to be taking a good amount of effort outside of the regular scope of the game to find a particular group and target them. shrug

@tre-oni said in People getting banned for taking down PVE Alliance servers?:

@lackbarwastaken said in People getting banned for taking down PVE Alliance servers?:

@tre-oni you don't know how alliance servers are set up.

Sure chief. Whatever you say.

They set them up magically I guess. They're just gods apparently. Alliance servers killed your family and they're ruining your life. Big bad, horrible alliance servers. Because you couldn't get in to sabotage.

I don't think there is any need for that kind of tone.
Besides, he might be right.

You said

People still need to actually get in and set those up, and then sail around trying to get the other ships to alliance, or gift the ships.. all you have to do is.. say no.

While I guess some (partial) alliance servers are created in such a way, larger groups (AFAIK) set up such a server by having several people trying to get on one server by logging in repeatedly (disrupting the servers where they don't find 4 of their friends) until 5 of them are in one and the same server.
Then they invite people from their discord, these don't do any of the set-up and they'll get replaced when they quit, keeping the server alive until it's shutdown.

They repeat this process for other servers if their discord demand is large enough I guess.

@lackbarwastaken said in People getting banned for taking down PVE Alliance servers?:

@tre-oni you don't know how alliance servers are set up.

Although it is not preferred, and not usually a method used by the largest alliances, sometimes that is how an alliance server is set up. There could be days where there are three or four ships on a server, and they will ask the others to join. I have recruited other players to an alliance sever before through doing this method.

It doesn't happen often with the larger alliances, and is done more often with medium sized ones and smaller. There could be days where there have been attempts to set up a server but had been going for a while and unsuccessful (it can happen more often on slow days). Sometimes all that can be initially set up is three or four ships.

On the smaller sized alliances, where there are less active players who are there to help out, it can happen more frequently. I have my foot in several alliance discords and will hop in to help if I see someone trying to set up a server. It doesn't always work out and sometimes the server settles for three or four ships so people can game. On those times, other ships encountered could be invited to join.

@lem0n-curry said in People getting banned for taking down PVE Alliance servers?:

@tre-oni said in People getting banned for taking down PVE Alliance servers?:

@lackbarwastaken said in People getting banned for taking down PVE Alliance servers?:

@tre-oni you don't know how alliance servers are set up.

Sure chief. Whatever you say.

They set them up magically I guess. They're just gods apparently. Alliance servers killed your family and they're ruining your life. Big bad, horrible alliance servers. Because you couldn't get in to sabotage.

I don't think there is any need for that kind of tone.
Besides, he might be right.

You said

People still need to actually get in and set those up, and then sail around trying to get the other ships to alliance, or gift the ships.. all you have to do is.. say no.

While I guess some (partial) alliance servers are created in such a way, larger groups (AFAIK) set up such a server by having several people trying to get on one server by logging in repeatedly (disrupting the servers where they don't find 4 of their friends) until 5 of them are in one and the same server.
Then they invite people from their discord, these don't do any of the set-up and they'll get replaced when they quit, keeping the server alive until it's shutdown.

They repeat this process for other servers if their discord demand is large enough I guess.

this. Its super lame that you just choose not to play the game and not allow other people to play the game with you.

@shadowrain142 Id rather play an open world pirate game shame alliance servers close off their servers.

@lackbarwastaken said in People getting banned for taking down PVE Alliance servers?:

this. Its super lame that you just choose not to play the game and not allow other people to play the game with you.

'choose not to play the game' - Players literally ARE playing the game. They are fishing, doing quests, running around forts (sometimes meg hunts. those are fun.).

'not allow other people to play the game with you.' - Alliances invite people to play with them all the time??

There are a lot of people who play in alliances and regular recruitment and invites to other people to join. Just about anyone is invited in many alliances so long as they follow the rules of playing friendly with fellow players. You could probably join an alliance server at any time at all if you searched for one and applied... Try taking a look at Xbox Looking For Group, do a search for Sea of Thieves Alliance servers. Just look for one and put in an application. It's not that hard.

... unless, of course, you do it just to PvP at the other ships and then I don't know what to tell you. Players can PvP on other ships at any time in the open seas. Being mad that they can't PvP against other people who aren't interested, when they can easily sail around in the open general seas and PvP with anyone there is kind of ridiculous.

@tre-oni said in People getting banned for taking down PVE Alliance servers?:

@lem0n-curry said in People getting banned for taking down PVE Alliance servers?:

While I guess some (partial) alliance servers are created in such a way, larger groups (AFAIK) set up such a server by having several people trying to get on one server by logging in repeatedly (disrupting the servers where they don't find 4 of their friends) until 5 of them are in one and the same server.

You're more likely to get 2 - 3 at best, unless you're real lucky, and then these guys sail around asking for already present ships to invite friends, or sink them and hope they leave..

With a large enough group the odds of getting more, even a complete server, go up.

If thats you, you're free to say no, and then you've got the PvP you might be after if you were looking to upset an alliance server/setup.

You could also.. say you're interested, join up, and wait it out for a few while they actually gather loot, and then decide to hit them and try and start the betrayal.

Once they've made one.. and you're not already in it.. who actually gives a damn.. move on.

Who cares what anyone else thinks about how other people play "Oh wow it sucks that you can't just play the game for what it is and open yourself up to PvP..."

People who play in Adventure and try to get emissary rewards but have limited time, care cause the thousands (wild guess) of people in PvE Alliance Servers take up loads of the first Tier, might care.

People who try find friendlies to do Glitterbeard or a multi-crew Adventure objective might care, as loads of people have done them in Alliance servers.

People who are on servers where they can't seem to find any other crews might care, because other spots are taken by those that are looking for their discord friends and might alt-f4 instead of leaving the server. They might use alt-f4 when they know there are other crews, so they and their friends won't get the same worthless spot again for 10 minutes of server spiking (I think that's the term).

I can't fathom how plenty of crews can sit for hours server hopping back to back literally only looking for FoF or FotD to jump in on.. but hey.. do whatever you want

Not how I play.

Not everyone who has issues with alliance servers (and hopefully you understand it's not about their easy millions of gold for everyone or completely) is a server/portal hopper. You can put that straw-man back into the field where it belongs.

@tre-oni said in People getting banned for taking down PVE Alliance servers?:

@lem0n-curry said in People getting banned for taking down PVE Alliance servers?:

Not how I play.

Not everyone who has issues with alliance servers (and hopefully you understand it's not about their easy millions of gold for everyone or completely) is a server/portal hopper. You can put that straw-man back into the field where it belongs.

And?

Alliance servers and hopping isn't how I play either... you know what I do though?

Go about my business playing my normal way, and having my normal engagements. Literally as easy as that. Every session still pretty much facilities every way of play. Alliance servers haven't obliterated PvP, loot or other coopoerative crews out of every other server. Acting like that's the case is just trying REAL hard to blame every problem you have on alliance servers.

You use obliterated, that's not what I said or implied. Your field must be full of strawmen by now.

If I ever want to, I can hop too, if I'm ever approached by a server alliance crew I can join and participate if I want to, I can join and sabotage if I want to, or I can just aggro them off the hop if I want to...

Why does anyone else need to care about how YOU play, when what they do still allows you to play?

See the points I made you left out of your quote.

@kommodoreyenser I think the fact of the matter is that Rare simply doesn't view alliance servers as big of an issue as some in the community. At this stage in SoT's lifecycle, I honestly can't believe that alliance servers pose a huge threat to the game, or its longevity. I would agree that a few years ago, it might have posed some issue with active servers, but with the amount of players SoT has garnered in the last year and a half alone, coupled with the ever-dwindling amount of active AS, I just don't see it, now.

Say/think what you will about them, hate them if you like, but I don't think they're going anywhere, and nor should they imho. Again, regardless of whether people agree with them or not, they are in-fact an avenue for a subset of players to enjoy and play the game - which is logistically all that matters.

@tre-oni said in People getting banned for taking down PVE Alliance servers?:

@lem0n-curry said in People getting banned for taking down PVE Alliance servers?:

@tre-oni said in People getting banned for taking down PVE Alliance servers?:

@lem0n-curry said in People getting banned for taking down PVE Alliance servers?:

Not how I play.

Not everyone who has issues with alliance servers (and hopefully you understand it's not about their easy millions of gold for everyone or completely) is a server/portal hopper. You can put that straw-man back into the field where it belongs.

And?

Alliance servers and hopping isn't how I play either... you know what I do though?

Go about my business playing my normal way, and having my normal engagements. Literally as easy as that. Every session still pretty much facilities every way of play. Alliance servers haven't obliterated PvP, loot or other coopoerative crews out of every other server. Acting like that's the case is just trying REAL hard to blame every problem you have on alliance servers.

You use obliterated, that's not what I said or implied. Your field must be full of strawmen by now.

You mean like implying I suggested hoppers and people hating alliance servers were one in the same, when it was a comparison between how someone on one side might not understand why someone else might want to play the way they want, so why should anyone really care in the end?

You really like calling everything a strawman don't you?

Whenever I spot one , I do. Not everything ...

It doesn't change that your words pretty much blame alliance servers for all of the problems you listed, as if because alliance servers exist you're entirely unable to do glitterbeard, or play the game and do.. literally everything still.

They contribute, I never said they are the sole reason.

Alliance servers exist, plenty of us still got, and get glitterbeard done.

Aye, so did we, after 10 or 11 months after its introduction. Ironically with a Galleon we sunk & robbed just before (and a sloop that initiated the request to do Glitterbeard).

Alliance servers exist. Plenty of us still end up in the top reward tier for emissary.

So do we. Then again, I play a lot. Note that I said people with more limited time to play SoT ...

Alliance servers exist. We still get plenty of PvP.

Oh, we get PvP. There are also sessions that we can't find another ship (whether we're looking for a fight or just keep a look-out).

Alliance servers exist. There's still tons of loot to steal from other crews.

Never said otherwise, there are times that servers seem empty. Dozens of people trying to create a PvE Alliance server might contribute to that.

Alliance servers exist. Everyone still manages to get their commendations.

I wouldn't say everyone...

Keep shaking your fist at at alliance servers for some reason for somehow ruining everything I guess though. To me anti alliance rants just exude the same vibe that people ranting for PvE only servers get, just on the opposite side.

It's the arguments against PvE servers, whether they would be implemented by Rare (as the people ranting want) or "hidden" behind PvE Alliance servers.

We're just playing our way when sinking PvE guys, and thats exactly what we tell them when they post a thread begging and complaining for PvE servers. It'll never happen.

I certainly hope not as well. These Alliance servers are just that though: PvE servers. They are just aren't as easily set up with a choice in the menu.

Some of them have managed to set themselves up within the structure of the game, in a way that provides a little more safety, they set it up. They're just playing their way. Deal.

They harm (in some quantity) the game and affect other players just as PvE servers would.
The argument some use, as in they don't affect other players at all, so let them be, is false.

@lem0n-curry wait taking away loot stacking players out of the player pool leads to less target rich servers? What a wild concept.

@lackbarwastaken said in People getting banned for taking down PVE Alliance servers?:

@lem0n-curry wait taking away loot stacking players out of the player pool leads to less target rich servers? What a wild concept.

I do still get loot from others though - would be more without Pve Alliance servers, but I've learned that being greedy gets you sunk 😁.

@tre-oni said in People getting banned for taking down PVE Alliance servers?:

@lem0n-curry said in People getting banned for taking down PVE Alliance servers?:

They harm (in some quantity) the game and affect other players just as PvE servers would.
The argument some use, as in they don't affect other players at all, so let them be, is false.

I think your personal opinion on how much damages are caused by alliances are just that. Opinions.

Opinions are opinions, correct.

How much damage or impact exactly - I don't know. A few servers with a few friends fooling around for a few hours, hardly.
Loads of discord servers with constant crews, more than that, and IMO too much.

Fact is, if Rare saw them as damaging and problematic to nearly every aspect of the game as you like to see them, they most likely would have done something about them by now, considering all the other things they've quickly nerfed into the ground once people found out how beneficial something was.

I think, or perhaps hope would be a better word, that with Custom servers Rare will have also an alternative for people who just like to sail around peacefully or with friends or like-minded people &c (and not just for content creation or streamer events), so they can do something about the PvE Alliance Servers.

They have in fact, done something about it: they removed most alliance servers from their social media thingies.

I also might be misremembering, but I'm also pretty positive a few years back Joe on a live stream, or interview was even asked about his views on alliance servers, and he basically gave a "it is what it is, they did their thing, set it up.. whatever" and mentioned the usual zero tolerance for toxicity that might arise from either setting one up, or betraying, and that's there they left that.

Mentioning "setting up", guess he thought more about people spending half an hour or more to have a server for a 2-to-3-hour session with friends. Doubt the (I imagine) more quicker way that larger discords use for a multitude of players.

@mackdi It seems like your playing the wrong game my friend. If you log on to adventure your automatically opening yourself up to PVP. The whole purpose of the game is to get loot and always have a risk of losing it. If you separated pvp and pve there would be no reason for pvp and it would make pve pointless.

@burnbacon yup. I know a lot of people who got banned after the alliance server crews mass reported them. it’s a big [mod edit].