I don't know what's going on with reapers trying to run to the red sea, in the last four days I have encountered 6 crews of reapers that run through the red sea at first sight of our ship, not even shooting a single canon shot, just running towards their wind andvantage until getting into the red sea and going through the despawn wall, we are never able to retrieve anything (not even with a rowboat with a harpoon) I understand when normal emissaries do this, but at least in my opinion reapers should at least leave the treasure behind so it can be retrieved, the map is bigger, there is more miles to get chased and to get away from other crews I don't like that the map is bigger because they run towards the red sea anyways. I think the despawn wall should be moved far into the red sea, so the loot can be taken at least with a rowboat.
Red sea FINAL WALL
That's how they win the ego battle and waste your time which is a win in itself to some
It's your responsibility to figure out how to adapt to their methods like they adapted to yours
People get tired of getting sank by crews while they are showing up to the hideout that have been on the server for 5 minutes total before they are harpooning stolen loot onto their boat. Just how it goes.
Preventing loot dumping is a safety net for half the conflict. No.
Reapers are just a faction that are engaging in higher risk and higher reward, that's it
no obligations
another part of it is what I consider to be a terrible respawn algorithm that greatly benefits not only the loser of the fight but the one with nothing to lose
imo sinks should result in significant consequences as far as respawn location goes. For everyone. Pve pvp pvepvp doesn't matter. The environment of being nearly forced into trying to sink the same ship twice in 5 minutes is not healthy imo and contributes to a lot of running.
reaper 5 near the hideout
server hopper arrives to take them out
even if they win there is nothing to gain and they are most certainly going to have to fight that same crew again within a few short minutes. People simply would rather kill your time rather than keeping losing loot in that scenario.@red0demon0 said in Red sea FINAL WALL:
I propose that if a ship sinks in the Red Sea, the treasure floats back to the game borders
+1 to this idea. Red sea Runners are cowardly sea rats.
@red0demon0 said in Red sea FINAL WALL:
I propose that if a ship sinks in the Red Sea, the treasure floats back to the game borders
yeah, how about a NO on that. All that does is make it easier for the pursuer to cash in, as now all they need to do is corner a ship at the edge of the map and would become a new meta in the game. If you want the treasure, be better and don't let it get to that scenario.
If you can't secure the treasure, you do not deserve it...much less have it served up to you on a silver platter by floating back to your awaiting ship. Let's reward skill and cunning, not just who can force others off the map because they can't get the loot before then.
Being cornered is not a meta as it's more of horrible gameplay choice on the pursues part. Your really not making sense here since you have every single ability to evade other ships in the game area, a meta and taking advantage of the system is using the red seas, so how about a yes on this. Anyone who supports the current system is just a sore looser who doesn't want the spoils to go to the victor. If you allow yourself to get cornered, then you deserve the loss
How is it a silver platter when you have to chase the person across the map, using all effort and experience to catch up to said ship, and probably wasting some resources along the way to steal the loot?
It's been said before but the treasure isn't yours until you cash it in, it should be fair game for everyone as long as it's out in the sea
@red0demon0 said in Red sea FINAL WALL:
That's not a meta as it's more of horrible gameplay on the pursues part. Your really not making sense here since you have every single ability to evade other ships in game, a meta and taking advantage of the system is using the red seas, so how about a yes on this. Anyone who supports the current system is just a sore looser who doesn't want the spoils to go the victor. If you allow yourself to get cornered, then you deserve the loss
How is it a silver platter when you have to chase the person across the map, using all effort and experience to catch up to said ship, and probably wasting some resources along the way to steal the loot?
It's been said before but the treasure isn't yours until you cash it in, it should be fair game for everyone as long as it's out in the sea
Since when did pirates care about "fair play" or sportsmanship? And who says every encounter needs a victor? If you didn't get it before they made it to the Red Sea, you certainly were not the "victor" so deserve nothing - it is a no-win scenario/stalemate, deal with it!
Chasing a ship across the map is not skill, if you had skill (or at least a sound strategy) you would not be chasing for that amount of time. If someone wants to use the no-win scenario, then good for them as you certainly do not deserve it if you failed to get it before they reached the Red Sea...simple as that.
I don't know how much clearer I could have made it, cornering a ship at the edge of the map really takes little skill and having the loot float to you is a cheap win. Then all people would do is force others to the edge instead of actually trying to engage or outsmart their opponent, because it is easier to do the former...which is the definition of a Meta bub! And this would make the game more boring in general and frustrating for inexperienced, peaceful minded players. Let them have their moment of defiance.
@dlchief58 @red0demon0
dlchief58 said:If you want the treasure, be better and don't let it get to that scenario.
I'm decidedly neutral on this topic, but let me be the devil's advocate:
If you want to keep the treasure, be better and don't get cornered.
If the red sea put loot back in the game world, then runners would have to know not to go straight for the red sea just as much as a PvPer has to know not to go straight for a galleon's broadside.It's not about who deserves the loot. Everyone can throw around arguments about that all day, and each one of those arguments can be flipped in a second.
The question is: Does the runner have full control of the loot on their ship or not? Because they can decide to drop all their loot gradually off the side and the chaser isn't going to get all of it... Currently, Rare has not seen a good enough reason to take away some of the runner's control over the loot.
I think it would make sense to make going into the red sea akin to scuttling, but the fact is that doing so would take away some of the runner's control of the loot. There are plenty of ways to fight a chaser without shooting a cannonball, but if the crew decides that's not the route they want to take... then they'll give up. And we know that not many can stomach giving up and giving their loot to their aggressor.
The way it is now, the attacker has surprise tactics to catch an enemy off guard. If they screw up and get in a running scenario (or if the enemy sees them coming), then the power to shape the encounter is in the hands of the runner. Currently, there just isn't enough reason to change that, whether or not loot coming back from the red sea makes sense.
I don't know if I articulated that well enough, hopefully you understand my viewpoint.
There are 3 perspectives that I can see:
- The runner has given up. They no longer deserve to control the loot and therefore the chaser should receive the loot from the red sea.
- The chaser has failed to catch the runner. They don't deserve anything.
Where I seem to be living in the third perspective: - The runner failed to defend their loot. They didn't have the resolve to fight. So they get nothing. The chaser failed to surprise/catch the runner, so they get nothing as well.
It's a lose-lose situation but I don't think there's going to be a change unless Rare changes their perspective.
Personally, I don't give enemy ships a chance to run often, so I rarely see it play out this way. The types I fight are always too cocky about how they're going to end up selling the loot, or too caught off guard to mount a defense.
Posts like these are so annoying, and frankly dime a dozen.
What many chasers fail to realize is the concept of...wait for it.. backing off. People just chase for hours, then whine when the fleeing ship red seas the loot, then they come to either here or the subreddit to complain about how unfair it is.
It's not unfair. There's numerous things that can be done, besides b-lining for your target all the time, and chasing them for hours on end.
Learn to adapt.
@valor-omega said in Red sea FINAL WALL:
Posts like these are so annoying, and frankly dime a dozen.
What many chasers fail to realize is the concept of...wait for it.. backing off. People just chase for hours, then whine when the fleeing ship red seas the loot, then they come to either here or the subreddit to complain about how unfair it is. (…)
OP didn't chase for hours, he stated:
reapers that run through the red sea at first sight of our ship,
@ninja-naranja said in Red sea FINAL WALL:
Maybe try backing off before they hit the Red Sea. Some players may turn away if they feel they don’t have to dumb their loot.
That right there is the advice I always give in this situation.
@dr-orchamedes said in Red sea FINAL WALL:
@red0demon0 said in Red sea FINAL WALL:
I propose that if a ship sinks in the Red Sea, the treasure floats back to the game borders
+1 to this idea. Red sea Runners are cowardly sea rats.
True, but they're cowardly sea rats that are allowed to be cowardly sea rats 'cause sandbox.
@galactic-geek said in Red sea FINAL WALL:
@dr-orchamedes said in Red sea FINAL WALL:
@red0demon0 said in Red sea FINAL WALL:
I propose that if a ship sinks in the Red Sea, the treasure floats back to the game borders
+1 to this idea. Red sea Runners are cowardly sea rats.
True, but they're cowardly sea rats that are allowed to be cowardly sea rats 'cause sandbox.
Yeah... I know. And I also know we have had this exact discussion on several other threads lol. They are absolutely free and allowed to do this within the parameters and technical tools of this amazing game. Just as those opposed to this tactic are allowed be upset at it and call them cowardly rats.
that run through the red sea at first sight of our ship,
just running towards their wind andvantage until getting into the red sea and going through the despawn wall,
Okie. So what is the problem? They saw a ship and ran toward the Red Sea. Were..you by chance chasing them.... Im confused here. If they ran, and sank themselves as well losing ALL loot they collected. That be a win in my book. Nobody got the loot and lost there flag. Fear is glory to me.
Admit: I Do this too. why? Because I can. "I am the master of my ship and fate" and if my loot is worthless to me, but I dont want anyone to have it? Im gonna dumb it off at the red sea. Why? Because of OP type of people, cries and whines. Salt for the sea because they didnt get "My" time wasted loot.
Well that's name calling... so technically on the forums they can't.
I say push the despawn wall out further and increase red sea damage rates, include damaging rowboats and swimmers. Loot doesn't get past the despawn wall so it's retrievable. You can waste more of your time and resources fishing it out. Which is really a good 30% of why I red dump. It takes your aggression away from other players & wastes your time.
It should not float back out for someone who can't properly ambush a solo slooper.
In all honesty, most crews that target Reaper Vs don't even need the loot. They simply want to be rewarded for aiming a cannon, swinging a sword, and shooting a gun.
I've always argued that the time dedication for PvE is completely imbalanced to the time dedication for PvP. Since it's so much easier to find a ship, shoot cannons at it and sink it for loot, than to go exploring islands, fighting island enemies and obtaining treasure and gold directly on the island, it features 2 wildly different playstyles that only neutralizes itself on player skill/awareness, and the chance a tentacle monster, a giant shark, and a rickety boat emerge from the waves.
If you are chasing a Reaper V that shows no signs of turning to fight, you are making a choice to enter that chase. It is your choice to consider going after a boat marked on the map, just as it's theirs to simply "avoid conflict" when they have everything to lose and practically nothing to gain.
Most of the people I find that have issues with red sea runners are experienced players that feel confident in their ability to track down a Reaper and sink them simply for the pointless reward of world event/random emissary loot. They go after Reaper's simply because they look for loot and they know the boat has players on it. That's not something to shame or talk down to, as it's a valid style of play, the "role of the hunter" as Mike Chapman calls it in the 2nd Episode of the SoT Podcast.
The question I come around to asking is what are you looking for exactly: PvP for a reward or PvP for PvP sakes? Cause I can tell you, most people that go after a Reaper V care more about the reward than they do the fight most of the time. Yes, most Reaper Vs are a PvPer's disgrace and are simply a loot pinata for any brave, worthy pirate to smash to pieces, but if you really wanted the PvP, you'd fight any boat that has any amount of loot on it.
@nex-stargaze said in Red sea FINAL WALL:
but if you really wanted the PvP, you'd fight any boat that has any amount of loot on it.
it's just cutting down on time significantly.
reaper is marked and it has a general indicator of how much activity that boat has engaged in.
checking tables within the complete unknown of activity levels on those emissaries or just doing it old school and checking out event spots is slow, real slow
from their perspective it's just the most realistic way to find some action without knocking around a bunch of random vessels that aren't very active or skilled
I completely understand both sides of it and support both of their freedoms to do what they do it just comes with too much complaining
a lot of the skilled pvpers don't actually wanna spend their time just sinking new players and tall talers and super casual crews. Reaper is a good mark. They are willingly marking themselves for death in exchange for a chance at greater reward. Totally fair target and one that is overall healthier for servers imo as it does take focus off random ships just doing their own thing.
@dlchief58 said in Red sea FINAL WALL:
@red0demon0 said in Red sea FINAL WALL:
I propose that if a ship sinks in the Red Sea, the treasure floats back to the game borders
yeah, how about a NO on that. All that does is make it easier for the pursuer to cash in, as now all they need to do is corner a ship at the edge of the map and would become a new meta in the game. If you want the treasure, be better and don't let it get to that scenario.
If you can't secure the treasure, you do not deserve it...much less have it served up to you on a silver platter by floating back to your awaiting ship. Let's reward skill and cunning, not just who can force others off the map because they can't get the loot before then.
I strongly disagree wtih you on this one brother.
The whole pursuing process is a massive dance between actions and counteractions. While LITERALLY everything a runner can pull off on you as a pursuer can be countered, there is one single thing to which there is no counter - despawning the loot. That's just not fair.
I will take your arguments one by one:
All that does is make it easier for the pursuer to cash in, as now all they need to do is corner a ship at the edge of the map
So instead of rewarding the pursuers for being able to corner the runners, we should instead vaporize the loot? How is that any fair? Pursuers must be able to counter that process. Just like they can counter anything else that's going on.
Oh, and PLEASE DON'T SAY "backing off is your counter play" because that's quite absurd. Backing off only resets the process. The moment the chase is resumed, the runners will hop over in the red sea again. Backing off solves nothing. If anything, it adds more time that both sides waste before the loot is ultimately despawned.
If you want the treasure, be better and don't let it get to that scenario.
Funny, I can use your argument against itself.
If you want the treasure, be better and win the fight/chase over it. Don't despawn it like a coward.
If you can't secure the treasure, you do not deserve it.
Funny again.
If you can't secure the treasure, you do not deserve it, and thus, you should not be provided with the non-counterable trump move to one-sidedly decide the fate of the treasure, just so the people who outplayed you and cornered you can also not have it.
Cornering a running ship is a feat, it should not be punished, it should be rewarded. You failed to escape? Time to hand over those chests and reward the people who outplayed you and managed to corner you.
As example I can give you myself. If I want my ship to flee, I guarantee you that it will take you literal HOURS before you pull off some miracle predictment on one of my jukes and catch me. By that time I would have already sold the loot through X, Y or Z method. THAT'S THE SKILL PLAY! Running into the red sea and despawning the loot just because you can, doesn't mean that others failed to outplay you and don't deserve it. It's in fact quite the opposite!
Let's reward skill
Funny for the third time, as that's MY POINT EXACTLY! Getting people cornered is indeed a skill.
@mostexpendable said in Red sea FINAL WALL:
Just acknowledge that it’s a pathetic ego saving play. Laugh to yourself that they threw away their loot in an act of spite. And pity them, for they will never improve at the game.
Absolutely!
My crew always laughs at those[mod edit], and we just move on after.
@nightflash said in Red sea FINAL WALL:
@realstyli
Something needs to change and I’m tired of spending 1-2 hours just chasing a ship full of loot down. Chaser Cannons would be a quick 3-4 shot and then boarding hooks.So you're looking for the game to make up for your shortcomings in tactics? Don't chase down a ship if your naval abilities are not up to it. There's only so many places they can go to sell their loot, if you know the seas then you can plan a trap.
They could also sell chaser Cannons for 10 million that way only a minority of pirates have them
Your idea just gets worse and worse.
The DA sails are already pushing the boundaries of giving players with more gold an advantage. The game is supposed to be an even playing field for old and new players alike. The only advantage should be experience and knowledge.
I have read the thread with interest changing my mind on each post. Now, even if i think that if you can't defend/gain the loot you don't deserve it, i think that something like the OP suggested shouldn't be too bad.
If my (bad) english does not betray me, no one thought about this: if running through the despawn wall the loot were spawed in a spot where the chaser could pick it up then runners would have no reason to do so. The remaining options would be two: fight for the loot or keep running wich in turn could end in a fight or a give up by the chasers.
In both cases (well...three cases) skills count, loot will end in the hands of the pirate who deserves it the most and the game will be more fun, because remember, this is just a game.Don't chase down a ship if your naval abilities are not up to it. There's only so many places they can go to sell their loot, if you know the seas then you can plan a trap.
naval abilities, huh? What about my sloop chasing a brig who will just run into the wind while I cover all the outposts and corner them because that’s all I can do on my slower duo sloop even tho we were the better sailors. They couldn’t cash in but would just run finally into the red sea. no chance to get the loot because blocking sell spots was everything we could do. Take things like mast reg into account that ruined our chainshot play and made us waste them. The new, bigger map after the PotC update is a heaven for runners and they are clearly in a better situation which isn’t fair at all. They were Reapers btw.
@j0sh-bones said in Red sea FINAL WALL:
Don't chase down a ship if your naval abilities are not up to it. There's only so many places they can go to sell their loot, if you know the seas then you can plan a trap.
naval abilities, huh? What about my sloop chasing a brig who will just run into the wind while I cover all the outposts and corner them because that’s all I can do on my slower duo sloop even tho we were the better sailors. They couldn’t cash in but would just run finally into the red sea. no chance to get the loot because blocking sell spots was everything we could do. Take things like mast reg into account that ruined our chainshot play and made us waste them. The new, bigger map after the PotC update is a heaven for runners and they are clearly in a better situation which isn’t fair at all. They were Reapers btw.
If they were reapers then you knew from the off where their ship was and which way they were facing. You could plan your approach to cut them off and been more sneaky. Get to know lines of sight and use rocks/islands to your advantage when getting in close initially.
Or, you know, sail on a brig if you're into chasing down ships regularly. If you're a good duo, you'll be able to manage it.
@nightflash said in Red sea FINAL WALL:
@realstyli
That’s because chaser Cannons are my answer to running ships; I’m tired of chasing a ship for 1-2 hours and unable to do anythng because the wind is always against me.Well then don't chase a ship for 1-2 hours! Do something else.
@greengrimz said in Red sea FINAL WALL:
@dlchief58 said in Red sea FINAL WALL:
@red0demon0 said in Red sea FINAL WALL:
I propose that if a ship sinks in the Red Sea, the treasure floats back to the game borders
yeah, how about a NO on that. All that does is make it easier for the pursuer to cash in, as now all they need to do is corner a ship at the edge of the map and would become a new meta in the game. If you want the treasure, be better and don't let it get to that scenario.
If you can't secure the treasure, you do not deserve it...much less have it served up to you on a silver platter by floating back to your awaiting ship. Let's reward skill and cunning, not just who can force others off the map because they can't get the loot before then.
I strongly disagree wtih you on this one brother.
The whole pursuing process is a massive dance between actions and counteractions. While LITERALLY everything a runner can pull off on you as a pursuer can be countered, there is one single thing to which there is no counter - despawning the loot. That's just not fair.
I will take your arguments one by one:
All that does is make it easier for the pursuer to cash in, as now all they need to do is corner a ship at the edge of the map
So instead of rewarding the pursuers for being able to corner the runners, we should instead vaporize the loot? How is that any fair? Pursuers must be able to counter that process. Just like they can counter anything else that's going on.
Oh, and PLEASE DON'T SAY "backing off is your counter play" because that's quite absurd. Backing off only resets the process. The moment the chase is resumed, the runners will hop over in the red sea again. Backing off solves nothing. If anything, it adds more time that both sides waste before the loot is ultimately despawned.
If you want the treasure, be better and don't let it get to that scenario.
Funny, I can use your argument against itself.
If you want the treasure, be better and win the fight/chase over it. Don't despawn it like a coward.
If you can't secure the treasure, you do not deserve it.
Funny again.
If you can't secure the treasure, you do not deserve it, and thus, you should not be provided with the non-counterable trump move to one-sidedly decide the fate of the treasure, just so the people who outplayed you and cornered you can also not have it.
Cornering a running ship is a feat, it should not be punished, it should be rewarded. You failed to escape? Time to hand over those chests and reward the people who outplayed you and managed to corner you.
As example I can give you myself. If I want my ship to flee, I guarantee you that it will take you literal HOURS before you pull off some miracle predictment on one of my jukes and catch me. By that time I would have already sold the loot through X, Y or Z method. THAT'S THE SKILL PLAY! Running into the red sea and despawning the loot just because you can, doesn't mean that others failed to outplay you and don't deserve it. It's in fact quite the opposite!
Let's reward skill
Funny for the third time, as that's MY POINT EXACTLY! Getting people cornered is indeed a skill.
We've had this go around many times, neither of us are going to change their stance. You keep going on about "fairness", yet since when do pirates and cutthroats care about fair play?
Cornering a player is skillful? Oh my, that is rich. It takes very little skill to corner a ship along the map's edge (or at least the majority of them, skillful veterans like us are harder to corner as well as less likely to do the Red Run anyway)...about as much as it takes to spawn camp a ship. Nothing more than shooting fish in a barrel. This is even easier if the target has no intention of fighting. Let them have their Kobayashi Maru.
I never once said that fleeing to the Red was a skillful move (but can be a strategic one, see comment below), so don't try to twist the argument here with that bull. They played you to a stalemate, you lacked the skill, planning and/or opportunity to prevent it - deal with it and plan better next time. However if you can get them before they make that move, then you've proven skill and strategy and deserve your rewards. But if you just run them off the map with ham-fisted approaches or hours long chases, then you deserve nothing. If someone wants to play as a "coward", that is their prerogative as they have no obligation to engage with you much less willingly hand over what loot is on board. Isn't the mantra of the game "tools not rules", yet you are wanting to enforce your own rules of engagement here. Adventure is not Arena.
This is nothing more than playing to a stalemate, as in chess one of the most strategic games ever devised. People may view it as cowardly or defiant, but it is nonetheless a valid and acceptable strategy in the game. Let these people have their moral/mental victory as those ones you chase likely didn't have enough to make it worth your while. A few times I've jacked with people that decide they want to pursue by leading them on a chase with little to nothing aboard and led the ship into the Red as a strategic move...basically drawing them away from my true mission so I can respawn and complete while the followed my decoy. I've also done it with an unmanned ship, jumping off at a location to complete my voyage unseen to pick up previously dropped/hidden loot. Now this is not something I have done often (or even in a long while come to think of it), but have had instance to use these specific strategies to free myself of annoying gnats...or just to annoy them further. But when done in the right instance can save you time in your quests, which really is the most valuable thing in the game. So don't be so quick to judge people's intentions when they head that way...you actually may have been outsmarted but your ego won't let you realize it.
But as I said, we are on completely different ends of the spectrum here with no common ground so will never come to an agreement.
