The game has a truckload of different swords of many types. Thus, it would make sense to use the swords a they should, for example, it makes no sense for the Sword of Souls to be used for cutting, as it is clearly a thrusting sword. So, I propose a visual overhaul of the swordfighting in SoT. The mechanics could stay the same, as they already work well, but the animations should be changed to match the swords used.
Sword fighting styles
What you're suggesting is impossible. The sword is a slashing weapon, and it can hit multiple targets in one swing. Changing attack animations is not just arbitrary, but it would be confusing and unfair. People will very loudly complain about getting hit while inside the sword's regular hit arc, while seeing a stabbing animation that clearly misses them.
@blam320 This problem already exists with the chaged sword attack though: you can hit people clearly on your sides and not in the way of the sword...
The animations already look different outside of the charge too. Simply try swinging the Order of Souls sword and it looks like it should not reach as far as other swords - but it does.
That's because the hurtbox for this weapon is the same across the board, regardless of cosmetic used - as it should be. It's got a wide arc, is reasonably far-reaching, and is also long-lasting. Its angle of trajectory changes depending on where you move and/or look, giving you as an attacker a myriad of potential ways to get around an opponent's block, even hitting them if they're about to stab you in the back (due to the back-swing of the arc just reaching past your own hip).
@somalian-sans said in Sword fighting styles:
@blam320 This problem already exists with the chaged sword attack though: you can hit people clearly on your sides and not in the way of the sword...
Then why make a suggestion that would make the problem worse?
@blam320 Point in this was that people don't complain abbout the charge even though there is a "problem".
But after thinking about your comments I can see a problem in how I proposed it. So should the mechanics also be changed? Make swordplay more interesting, for example by dividing swords into three types: choppers, thrusters and slashers that had some kind of three way balance, kind of like rock-paper-scissors?
@somalian-sans said in Sword fighting styles:
@blam320 Point in this was that people don't complain abbout the charge even though there is a "problem".
But after thinking about your comments I can see a problem in how I proposed it. So should the mechanics also be changed? Make swordplay more interesting, for example by dividing swords into three types: choppers, thrusters and slashers that had some kind of three way balance, kind of like rock-paper-scissors?
In doing that, though, you're arbitrarily limiting a pirate's choice in which melee weapons to use. What if I like the look of 1, but not the mechanics associated with it?
What I find interesting is just how clueless virtually every pirate is with a sword's mechanics as is. Yesterday I sailed with 1 new pirate, a seasoned pirate, and a skilled pirate from as far back as the open beta days - and all 3 were shocked when I showed them the combat secrets that I know, and that in my experience, 99.9% of pirates that I have encountered don't even know exists. And that is not just an arbitrary percentage either! It's legit! I share this information with any half way decent pirate I encounter, and have been doing this since the early days - in that time, only 1 has ever known about it (the 1 who taught me).
In doing that, though, you're arbitrarily limiting a pirate's choice in which melee weapons to use. What if I like the look of 1, but not the mechanics associated with it?
This is already true in the guns: what if you like the look of the flintlock, yet like the YoR and blunderbuss for their mechanics?
And yes I agree, the current sword's mechanics are delightfully unknown to almost all. I can often kill crews many times over when boarding with the cutlass as they pretty much never know it's quirks.
Myself, I'd love to see rapiers show up in the game with an emphasis on rewarding accuracy.
LMB = Thrust (33% Damage) 3 hit combo
No AoE/cleave, compensated by higher damage, 3 stabs and you're out.
Like the guns, good for dueling, bad for 1v2+Hold LMB = Lunge (60% Damage)
Identical to the cutlassRMB = Parry (Default block)
Identical to the cutlass, just an animation of the sword flicking upwards from a low-guard and sparks flying@somalian-sans said in Sword fighting styles:
In doing that, though, you're arbitrarily limiting a pirate's choice in which melee weapons to use. What if I like the look of 1, but not the mechanics associated with it?
This is already true in the guns: what if you like the look of the flintlock, yet like the YoR and blunderbuss for their mechanics?
I thought someone might bring that up. While true, the firearms are still broken down into their most basic aspects, and have their own cosmetic varieties within them. If Rare adds more melee options, I would want it to be considerably different like the guns - a dagger and boarding axe, for example.
@galactic-geek said in Sword fighting styles:
@herrdave3849 You can already parry with the sword.
I think his point wasn't the parry, but the introduction of a new sword.
Also, to your point in adding more melee weapons: what I was after was not new weapons, my suggestion specifically mentioned sword styles because swords already exist, but aren't used as they should/as would make sense.
But you are somewhat correct in saying they should be different. Now thinking some time after the initial post, the concept of refined swordfighting by dirty pirates kinda doesn't fit in the game. Still even after all this it does bug me that you can slash with an edgeless thrusting sword.
@somalian-sans said in Sword fighting styles:
In doing that, though, you're arbitrarily limiting a pirate's choice in which melee weapons to use. What if I like the look of 1, but not the mechanics associated with it?
This is already true in the guns: what if you like the look of the flintlock, yet like the YoR and blunderbuss for their mechanics?
And yes I agree, the current sword's mechanics are delightfully unknown to almost all. I can often kill crews many times over when boarding with the cutlass as they pretty much never know it's quirks.
The comparison to the game's firearms is terrible. Night and day difference, and completely illogical.
@blam320 How so?
Different guns for different situations
EoR = Long range Ship-to-ship and barrel sniping
Blunderbuss = Boarder-B-Gone
Pistol = Good all-rounderSaying "BuT sWoRdS aRe OnLy FoR sLaSh" is kinda-- lame, man.
Why would you be against more variety in weapon types?Sure bread is great, but imagine bread and butter!
@somalian-sans Which sword has no edge? The Sword of Souls? Sure, it may primarily be for thrusting, but there's no reason to believe that the edge isn't sharp (or has been sharpened). Most people look at it and think it's similar to a foil, or other similar sword, when it isn't. If anything, it's more like a Chinese Jian sword.
I have always likened it to Xianghua's sword in the Soul Calibur series without the tassle on the pommel (shown below).
If you want to talk about styles, specifically really fancy ones that are probably inappropriate for a pirate game, her style will probably top the list. 😅
@galactic-geek Well, if I think about it as a Jian, it almost makes sense, but as it tapers down into nothing, unlike a Jian's blade does, its cuts would have almost no power. But also the sword in question does glow with something supernatural so...
@somalian-sans said in Sword fighting styles:
@galactic-geek Well, if I think about it as a Jian, it almost makes sense, but as it tapers down into nothing, unlike a Jian's blade does, its cuts would have almost no power. But also the sword in question does glow with something supernatural so...
Yeah, that's definitely another way to look at it - it's definitely not your typical sword.
@herrdave3849 said in Sword fighting styles:
@blam320 How so?
Different guns for different situations
EoR = Long range Ship-to-ship and barrel sniping
Blunderbuss = Boarder-B-Gone
Pistol = Good all-rounderSaying "BuT sWoRdS aRe OnLy FoR sLaSh" is kinda-- lame, man.
Why would you be against more variety in weapon types?Sure bread is great, but imagine bread and butter!
By "more variety in weapon types," especially with regards to melee weapons, the requests have always been genuinely different weapons, and not just sword variants. We want more weapons that pirates traditionally used, like hatchets and boarding pikes. All of the firearms aren't just variants of each other; they're unique. The only common request for firearm variants is for a proper musket, literally that's just the Eye of Reach without a telescope taped on. Which is redundant, just like different swordfighting styles. What role would they even fill?
@blam320 Ahh, that's what you mean.
Yeah, as far as fighting "styles" I don't see the need for new ones to be added, but new weapons would always be nice.
A Musket could have a bayonet for it's Alt-fire
A Rapier could reward the player for accurate thrusts
A Boarding Axe could be thrown with Alt-fire
A Pike could have greater reach and a Halberd variant for our Swiss players"What role would they even fill" is a bit of a silly question:
They're weapons! Mix and match them, find what combinations feel the best for you to cruise with, and have fun!If we had to justify the existence of everything in the game, we wouldn't have the Hunter's Call or Grogballs.
@herrdave3849 said in Sword fighting styles:
@blam320
A Musket could have a bayonet for it's Alt-fire
A Rapier could reward the player for accurate thrusts
A Boarding Axe could be thrown with Alt-fire
A Pike could have greater reach and a Halberd variant for our Swiss players"What role would they even fill" is a bit of a silly question.
I don't think it's silly at all. I think it's worthy of a deeper discussion. Try answering some of my questions:
How would you balance said musket and bayonet in relation to other weapons that we have now? Or how would you adjust the others to allow it to fit in in a balanced manner?
When a hit to the head is the same result as a hit to the toe how exactly are you going to be rewarded for more accuracy with a rapier?
How are the mechanics going to work once you throw the ax? What will the unarmed mechanics be?
Greater reach with a pike? Have you not seen the complaints regarding the sword's reach all those months ago before its reach was nerfed? And a halberd? What about non-Swiss pirates that want to use it too?
Many a pirate think that they have a good idea to improve combat, but they rarely consider it from all of the angles, or by looking at the bigger picture. And trust me, when you're considering altering a core aspect of the Sea such as combat, you don't want to be leaving any stones unturned.
@galactic-geek No problem man :)
*Edit
Man, you weren't kidding about these things needing some thought. While writing these out and running little simulations in my head, I had to walk back a few of the more complex attacks/effects so it'd work for Xbox players. Those sticks are a menace.The Musket;
[LMB] - An inaccurate 50% damage shot with a 15 degree inaccuracy cone.
[RMB] - A bayonet thrust dealing ~10-20% damage to a single target, bumping them back.
Long 3-4 second reload to compensate for the utility the bayonet brings.
A good melee-oriented weapon for those double-gun enthusiasts.
It could inspire a 'Fire & Bayonet Charge' style of gameplay.The Rapier;
My bad, by 'Rewards the player for accuracy' I mean it in the sense of a pistol shot. It'd reward you for accurately tracking and hitting your target without relying on the broad sweeping hit-mesh of the Cutlass.
[LMB] - A thrust that deals 33% damage for it's primary attack (2 hit combo)
[Hold LMB] - You spring forwards with a low thrust after a 3-second crouch, inflicting a 50% bleed and limp on your target.
[RMB] - You slow to a walk and your sword becomes a dancing barrier.
(Or 'pretty block' if you want to boil it down that much)
It could inspire a 'Duelist' fighting style, very focused on single-target engagement, but not what you want when you're fighting crowds.The Boarding Axe;
[LMB] - I think it could be a slow-swinging 33% damage weapon with an overhead 2-hit combo.
[Hold LMB] - This could wind back a broad 80% damage swing which hits in a 180 degree arc in front of you and staggers you for 2 seconds.
[RMB] - This could ready your axe to throw and zoom in a bit, and you'd fling it in a grenade-like arc for the same damage as in melee. After thrown, you switch to your secondary weapon while the axe "recharges" or you run over it again, thereby picking it back up. Cannot block.
This is essentially an inversed Musket, a slow melee weapon with an optional ranged attack.
This could give rise to a 'bruiser' fighting style, a lumbering menace on deck.The Pike;
You move slower with this weapon, as it's long and awkward to use.
[LMB] - A poke! Deals 20-25% damage from a distance in a 2-hit combo.
[Hold LMB] - A skewering thrust, charge time 3.5-4 seconds, deals 40% damage +30% damage over time, knocks back or slows/staggers attackers.
[RMB] - You shoulder the pike and run at normal speed.
Cannot Block.
Historically, Pikemen fought in tight defensive squares, since if something makes it's way past the tip, good luck blocking anything.This could be employed by more defensive crews to peel boarders off of ship ladders, and be used to poke at skeleton bosses from a distance if the player feels nimble enough.
I'm not saying "Swiss players only, lololol"
The Halberd skin idea was just a nod to the Swiss Guard, renowned mercenaries used from Late Medieval times to the present day. It'd be cool to see Halberds appear as pike skins, since the animations fit.
(Granted, you'd have to go back to EARLY sailing years to see halberds at sea, we're talking Hernan Cortes here, but hey we have Conquistador armour, so why not weapons.)@herrdave3849 Now we're getting somewhere.
I think the rapier should be a faster hitting weapon than the cutlass with lower damage - perhaps the old sword stats (20% damage across 5 hits, but with a 4-hit combo)? I think this would make up for its narrower attack angle while still balancing it out with the cutlass. It will also separate the damage from being similar to your proposed boarding ax.
Regarding the ax, could an enemy potentially pick it up and use it against you after it's thrown? And what if you miss and throw it into the Sea?
@galactic-geek
-highfive-
Excellent idea, with faster attack speeds we could use more sleek rapier/foil designs weapon skins for more variation :)As for bad throws into the sea, or into a cliff-face way out of reach...
I think the Boarding Axe could come with a new UI element.
A recharge icon of a whirring axe near the healthbar or on the crosshair.When you throw it out, it appears and fills up over 10-15 seconds then flashes and vanishes when it's recharged.
At that point, the one in the ground or sea fades and a new one appears in your hand.10-15 seconds is a sort of spitball range.
Ideally, the recharge rate for the Boarding Axe should be about x3-5 times longer than the time it takes to reload a gun to dissuade players from relying on it as a spammable ranged option.About enemies being able to pick fallen axes up, I think if they have the Boarding Axe equipped, they should be able to pick it up if they have already thrown their own.
Hey, enemies who don't have it could even stand over it and prevent you from picking it back up, forcing you to wait on the cooldown.I'm down...
It would play into the 3 weapon scenario I'd like to see to nerf DG. 2 guns of choice + sword. Now plus sword styles? Noice!
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