Double Sloops as option for 4-player crew instead of Galleon

@cyaniderush

There are 5 ships per server, if you and your friends are occupying 2 of those slots that means that there are only 3 left. There would be so many benefits of being in a 2 ship setup that the reduction of firepower is really not a big deal; ships and their crew sizes are made in such a way to have a type of balance. Alliances are not supposed to be extensions of your crew.

I am all in favor up being allowed to vote to upgrade or downgrade a ship at a shipwright. Multi-ship combo's are a no go in my view.

I would only be for joining as a fleet if other changes are made along side it.

First, when you join as a fleet, you are put on a server with only crews similar to your own. This way we avoid the incoming complaints of being ganged up on by multiple ships as a single ship.

Second, there is a limitation on how many ships are in a fleet. Only two ships, this way we avoid people gaming the Alliance system even more.

Third, the amount of ships on the server would need to increase. Having possession of 2/5's of the server population is too large of a portion. This would mean, if the other change was made as well, only one or two other groups is along side you.

(Optional) Lastly, any ship within that fleet is required to share the same voyage. At least this ensures that the Fleet is cooperating in some capacity, rather than just going on two ends of the map never to speak to each other again.

@cyaniderush said in Double Sloops as option for 4-player crew instead of Galleon:

@cotu42 I was envisioning this as an extension of 5 crews per server rather than 5 ships. A crew of 4 coming in and selecting dual sloops would be counted as 1 ship as far as the server would concerned (again, in my just speculative suggestion here).

This just shows that you do not understand why the limit of servers has been reduced from 6 player ships to 5 player ships while it doesn't matter what type of ships they are.

The servers aren't limited by the player count, but by our actual ships and I would only hope that once it becomes viable again they will simply up the amount of crews with their ships that can be on the server.

@cyaniderush said in Double Sloops as option for 4-player crew instead of Galleon:

This just shows that you do not understand why the limit of servers has been reduced from 6 player ships to 5 player ships while it doesn't matter what type of ships they are.

You're right, I don't have any technical knowledge about the determining factor for server ship count. Would you be so kind as to explain it for me so I can better understand?

The server has to calculate and determine many things in the game, from the damage, skeletons, world events and the physics in the game. Server based games have a client side, which we play on which handles our input, rendering and some parts but the bulk of the game gets sent to the server and that synchronizes the data, crunching the numbers and sends it back. That is how most multiplayer games function. (Very crudely written)

The water in this game and the physics engine is the most impressive accomplishment, yet this also makes ships one of the most taxing assets on the servers. They even reduced the amount of ships to open up resources to try and improve the performance to combat hit registration issues.

@cyaniderush I think this is a terrible idea. Sorry to be so blunt but it truly is , in my opinion a terrible idea. First off why should one crew hog two ship spots on an already small server? Second off, sloop is already in my opinion the most deadly ship when handled by two good players. Imagine having one on each side of you with skilled players attacking? Too OP in opinion. You would grind faster and also there is another huge advantage of stacking all loot on one ship while leaving the other ship to attack while the other flees to an outpost.

Yes I know people can alliance up and attack ships together or stack all loot on one ship or grind faster but still there is that sense of betrayal risk when teaming up with a stranger. Your way takes that risk away and gives you all the advantage and none of the downfall as its with people you know and trust. Also how often have I been attacked by duo alliance ships while out on Sea? Once that I can remember in recent play time, and it was at a fort. If this was an option I feel like tag teaming ships would become a thing.

@combatxkitty instead of saying its a terrible idea, they should maybe look into stronger servers. People are paying Emporium and seasons now, their should be better options and not just depend on xbox because of their limitations.

We should have options to have more boats on a server. ONLY limited to a boat of 4 is ridiculous, how many people iv gotta turn down because of ship limitations. resorting into getting another ship on a server to alliance to take a boat.

THIS NEEDS CHANGE period.

@kadaj1991 If you allow people to queue into the game with multiple ships you start to throw off the balance, it is just a bad idea all round and I highly doubt it is ever going to happen.

@kadaj1991 said in Double Sloops as option for 4-player crew instead of Galleon:

@combatxkitty instead of saying its a terrible idea, they should maybe look into stronger servers. People are paying Emporium and seasons now, their should be better options and not just depend on xbox because of their limitations.

We should have options to have more boats on a server. ONLY limited to a boat of 4 is ridiculous, how many people iv gotta turn down because of ship limitations. resorting into getting another ship on a server to alliance to take a boat.

THIS NEEDS CHANGE period.

I see you picked only one aspect of why I think its a terrible idea.

The fact that Rare had to drop servers down already shows there are clear issues. I am sure if it was so easily fixed they would have fixed it instead. I personally think the game running storms,volcanoes the realistic waves, the events is server overload and that is why they did what they did. I also think this is why hit reg is such an issue. Rare can only do so much because SOT is not solely a PC game. I actually do lag in certain areas of the map because sometimes its all just too much and I run a good new gaming specific PC and usually play fine on it.

Anyways even if Rare did somehow fix servers to point of allowing more than five to a server its still a terrible idea in my opinion due to the other reasons I listed which you ignored.

@kermar-tutu

If you want to scold me on my position then you should include my entire opinion and not cherry picking my arguments. Read my first post, where I talk about balance and not server performance.

Their counter argument was to just add more ships and asked for additional information on how server based games work. It has been Rare that informed us that ship assets are demanding on the servers, they are the ones that reduced the amount of ships on the server to boost performance. Just because I don't work there doesn't mean I cannot use the information they provided. To which I also stated that I would want them to just increase the amount of crews on a server again instead when that would be viable.

Either follow what the developers say or don't. Yet get off your high horse and inform yourself before you try and bash someone else for listening to what the developers say and then cherry picking what people say to hold it against them. I am so fed up with people ripping what I say out of context and using a fraction of what I state to then tell me off.

People are saying this is over powered because of having four friends on two sloops. And that is true.

It can even get worse: imagine having those four friends on a single sloop ... (and the other sloop just floating somewhere or used as bait).

Or they use eachother's sloop and when one of them encounters another crew, the other crew mermaids back to their sloop and it instantly becomes a 4 person crew on a small boat.

It can be fun for the four friends, but they'll have to wait until the private or custom servers become a reality.

@alymon said in Double Sloops as option for 4-player crew instead of Galleon:

I mean, it obviously changes balancing and might require tweaking a few factors to implement. I guess all I'm hearing from detractors is "no it's not possible" or "no it would be unfair", rather than if it's done right, it would open up new strategies and gameplay options that would expand how the game plays.

Nobody is saying two sloops wouldn't be advantageous over using just a galleon, but were it to be implemented, Rare certainly could rebalance to account for it.

Just because you disagree with an idea, doesn't make it terrible. There's plenty of reasons why it's a great idea if implemented correctly.

Giving players the ability to firebomb ships seems like a bad idea at face value if nothing else was changed, but Rare implemented water barrels on ships and implemented fire damage in a way that adds to overall gameplay mechanics and gives new and interesting ways to engage with others. Implementing duo sloops for crews of 4 may need some tweaks/balancing to make it work, but it still remains that being on two smaller ships like that is lightyears more fun to me than being on a galleon.

Well sorry you arnt hearing what you want to hear but that is all you are hearing for a reason. People are disagreeing because it would be unfair and it would be rather silly having two ships on a server being one crew. I am allowed to have my opinion that it is a terrible idea by the way whether you agree or not.

Also comparing one crew having two ships to fire bombs? Really? Rare needed to bring more weapons to the table so I find fire bombs a welcomed addition. Fire bombs are something we all have accsess too whether you are a one person crew , two, three or four and they sure do not grind the game faster! Fire bombs they had to add a water barrel, one adjustment. How many adjustments would be needed for something like this?

Let me outline some obvious issues with this since you seem to be so bewildered by the fact people dont think this is a good idea. You know it would be an advantage but as you can see here this is quite abit for Rare to balance.

1)If me and my crew have two sloops we have two slots on the server and now only have to worry about three others.

2)If one sloop is working on a quest then I can send over other sloop to go do an event. We get 100 percent of those profits since we are all same crew. No risk of betrayal.

3)We can coordinate attacks on other ships. Me and my one crew mate use to sink gally's just two of us on one sloop. If were were to team up with two other veteran crew members and split into two sloops, yeah good luck to anyone sinking us.

4)If more than one crew chooses this in a server you can be caught in a server with two of these four man sloop crews. So now its you and two other crews, fun.

5)You can loot stack all loot on one of your ships and use the other to attack any ship that comes close while not having to worry about betrayal if you wanted to try this approach with a crew you just met.

What exactly do you propose to make balance this since? Throw out some ideas if you think all these advantages (this is just what I could come up with im sure there are plenty more) can be made fair. How would you rebalance to make one crew having two ships to themselves on a five ship server fair? Adding ships is not that easy as Rare already had to remove a ship slot so keep that in mind. Also how would you balance the duo sloops not having an advantage in combat or in being able to grind faster ? Suggestions?

Also keep in mind four man crews already have an advantage having more hands on deck to do voyages ect, now you want them to have an entire new advantage of having two ships to themselves. Well how about letting us all have two ships then? Why just four man crews get two ships? How about duo crew and brig crews, me and my friend(s) should be able to have two sloops aswell, no? Maybe we dont want a brig when our third friend joins us, maybe we want sloops! For me and my friend we dont use the sloop because its too boring for us since we are both expert solo sloopers and can run a sloop blindfolded if need be alone. So how about we get the choice of two sloops so we dont have to choose the brig to keep us busy?

What RARE actually needs to spend time working on in my opinion is allowing us to change ship sizes from an outpost.

@alymon said in Double Sloops as option for 4-player crew instead of Galleon:

@combatxkitty It's not that I'm not hearing what I want to hear. Don't be so condescending. Nobody is saying you aren't entitled to your own opinion, but you can be respectful in how you present it.

Try not to be so sensitive. I said in my opinion its a terrible idea , not that it was for certain one. I then listed reasons why I felt that way. Its not like I just said Terrible! End of post.

I'm condescending yet you refer to people who disagree and have clearly stated why as detractors? Yeah ok. I did not point that out because I am not overly sensitive but referring to people who disagree with as "detractors" is rather rude.

Unless someone here is a game designer/developer with direct experience in balancing gameplay mechanics, suggestions are a bit moot. Others have provided some ways they could try to balance it. Others have provided some concern over ship limits and such. It's for Rare to decide if they think the idea is worth implementing or technically feasible over other enhancements people have recommended or they have come up with.

Not moot at all. Anyone familiar with the balance of this game and how the mechanics work can see how OP this can be. You dont need a game design degree to see this and I find it rather incredible and insulting you suggest ones does.

To address your specific questions...

• If I personally were going to balance it, I would look for ways to improve the galleon and potentially allow 3-4 on a brig instead of just 3. But without being privy to the inner workings of all of the balancing that Rare has done, any balancing suggestions from players here is always going to be coming from a place of ignorance.

So your answer to balance this is to is to make other ships OP aswell? Now Rare is to change all ships because some crews of four want to play on two ships? Where does that leave solo players? Or maybe you can attach rocket launchers to solo sloops to add balance when they are being attacked by a four man brig and a newly improved gally?(that is abit of sarcasm).

• I am absolutely aware that Rare has changed the ship counts and there are technical challenges to increasing it. There are technical challenges with all changes to all games. This isn't a reason to shy away from trying something. Limited resources and time and potentially limited interest in a new change are all reasons they might not pursue it, for sure.

Well fact that they had to drop the count down doesnt seem to promising now does it? One does not need a game design degree to see that. I hope they can get it fixed as well as long as it doesnt break the game in the process. With that said though even if they can fix the game to handle more ships per server that is only one of the many potential issues with this.

• I have zero concern with people "grinding faster". Grinding as a gameplay mechanic and having to spend massive amounts of hours to achieve goals in a way that discourages fun is counterintuitive to game design to me. However, if you'd like to balance it out so that grinding takes roughly the same amount of time that it does today, you still treat it like an alliance in game. 100% value to the ship crew turning it in, 50% value to the second ship. If being coordinated with friends is too much of an advantage for grinding, you decrease the percentages for both ships to 90% and 40% or some other variable that makes sense (again, that would be dependent on Rare to decide).

Well that is nice you have no concern but others do. So basically you suggest the game is to recognize you as being two separate crews? Ok well even with that you can still make out better and you can still have less risk than if all loot was on one ship.

• My comparison to fire bombs was not meant to be an exact comparison. I was pointing out that any new implementation requires balancing, testing, rebalancing, etc. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be implemented. Pick any gameplay mechanics you'd like, and the comparison still stands.

You have listed some pretty large re balancing for this. From changing brigs to four man , to giving Galleons "improvement", to adding more ships per server, to changing loot value and recognizing one crew as two.

You say "Pick any gameplay mechanics you'd like, and the comparison still stands" only shows me you really lack an understanding here. No, some additions require much much much more rebalncing. It does not stand at all.

Also what about what I said about why is the four man gally crew the only players allowed to have two ships? Do you think its fair to not allow lets say the new four man brig you just proposed to have two sloop option as well? Also why cant duo players get two sloops instead of one?Thoughts on that? I think if Rare added something like this it should be an option for all crews.

I do appreciate you coming up with ideas though. This is a feedback forum. I can think ideas are terrible , hey this is by far not the worst ive ever personally seen. Also yes we all know it is up to Rare to figure out we are here to hash out ideas that is all.

@cyaniderush said in Double Sloops as option for 4-player crew instead of Galleon:

Hello SoT devs!
Having just the most fun with your sandbox, and it's been especially helpful as an escape with my friends during lockdown (the gorgeous vistas!).

Anyway, my friends and I are all logging on at different times, coming and going, and it makes it a challenge to play small while having a scalable option when friends join.

By the same token, last evening a pair of us in a sloop saved a stranger adrift in a row boat. His companion departed him, and he allowed one of our friends to join his crew. We spent several hours running missions and goofing off in double sloops. It made me wonder: would it be a reasonable addition to allow 4 person crews to select whether they would like a galleon or a pair of sloops? It's still fewer cannons overall; it adds some additional rp and ship formation fun; and it would allow for people to scale up crew size when friends sign on, rather than restart a new crew.

Anyway, cheers!

it breaks the core gameplay but the way you did it that's fine but what you are thinking of breaks core gameplay

@alymon said in Double Sloops as option for 4-player crew instead of Galleon:

@combatxkitty

Okay. I'm done. Calling "detractor" condescending is a far cry from reality.

Detractor-"A detractor is someone who puts you down. When you're proposing ideas at work, your detractor is the person who finds fault with everything you say. Use the noun detractor for someone who is always critical."

This is a feedback forum, not everyone is going to agree and that is ok. Calling people who see faults with an idea and voice those faults as "detractors" is a bit much.

You be done then. I laid out a thought out counter post and you come back with that? Weak. What is the saying? "If you cant take the heat then get out of the kitchen".

Oh well nice chat!