Suggestion: Ship crew overloading (and underloading?)

  • Zitchas
    Castaway

    OK, my situation is this: I'm a new player, and several of my friends have picked up the game too. Two of us are really into all the various mechanics like sailing and navigating and running the ship; but the other ones are more casual and are more interested in exploring islands, killing undead, perfecting their outfits, and just hanging out as part of the group.

    The problem is ship complexity and intensity. Sailing on a sloop, I can handle the sailing while the rest do fun things like hang out in the crowsnest or change up their outfits or whatnot. But as soon as we've got a third or (rarely, a fourth person) who wants to sail with us; then we have to shift up to a bigger boat. This is problematic because those boats are harder to sail and basically require everyone to take part in running things. Which isn't good when it is basically still just one (or maybe two) of us that are actually interested in doing that stuff.

    Thus a request for an option to "overload" a ship and add extra crew beyond what it is "rated" for. Now, I've read a few opinion pieces that describe how sloops are OP and how allowing them to carry three or four players would make the rest of the ships useless; and I agree (especially since I spend a lot of my time playing solo or as part of a 2-person crew). But I also think it would be a good option to get more people into groups and having fun without pressuring everyone to get intensely involved in the business of sailing a ship.

    So, my thought is that the "overload" option comes with downsides. I've got a few ideas of what they could be, but I'm not sure how much would be necessary to be an effective counterbalance to having an extra player or two onboard a ship.

    My suggestion is to have these three options be selectable choices when starting a new game. The default, of course, would be as things are right now.

    Option A: "Crowded"

    • Benefit: +1 crew member slot
    • Downside: When engaged in PVP all crewmembers on that ship do 33% less damage and take 33% more damage.

    Option B: "Sardines"

    • Benefit: +2 crew member slots
    • Downside: When engaged in PVP all crewmembers on that ship do 50% less damage and take 50% more damage.

    Option C" "Lone Wolf"

    • Benefit: +25% crew and ship health
    • Downside: Crew slots reduced by 50%, rounded down. So only 1 person on a Sloop, 1 on a Brigadine, and 2 on a Galleon.

    Other possible downsides:

    • Loot sold to merchants and factions gives smaller returns
    • Decreased reputation gain
    • Automatic (and unremovable) secondary flag indicating that the ship is "crowded" or "sardines" so that it isn't a surprise to other players.

    My reasoning for the suggested downside regarding PVP damage:
    In terms of PVE, the decision to run a sloop versus any other kind of ship is just personal preference. Some people like small ships, some like bigger ships. Allowing an extra one or two crew on any ship doesn't really cause any problems for the game for PVE environment, so I see no need to penalize it.
    On the other hand, one or two extra crew in the PVP area could make sloops extremely dangerous, especially to players who aren't seeking out PVP or those who are running smaller ships because they don't have the crew for a large one. So it is specifically this PVP aspect that needs balancing. In my interpretation, that damage reduction would also apply to the damage caused by thrown or carried objects such as gunpowder barrels.

    tldr:

    • There are people who enjoy hanging out with friends (the social side of the game) who aren't interested and/or capable of enjoying the intensity of the high-risk high-seas action and/or have trouble with the complexity of being part of a team managing larger ships on the high-seas.
    • It would be nice to be able to invite casual players along on our voyages without having to switch to a more complex ship, particularly when the extra crew aren't likely to be actually contributing to running it.
    • Some balancing would be required to prevent having extra crew being a significant benefit in PVP combat.
    • Provide options at the starting menu to add an extra 1 or 2 crew slots to the selected ship, with an associated penalty (in my example, the penalty is that all crew members do less damage in PVP combat, and take more damage from other players in PVP combat)
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  • RTL Saint
    Sailor

    @zitchas said in Suggestion: Ship crew overloading (and underloading?):

    The problem is ship complexity and intensity. Sailing on a sloop, I can handle the sailing while the rest do fun things like hang out in the crowsnest or change up their outfits or whatnot. But as soon as we've got a third or (rarely, a fourth person) who wants to sail with us; then we have to shift up to a bigger boat. This is problematic because those boats are harder to sail and basically require everyone to take part in running things.

    oh no the bigger ships, intended to be harder require MORE people to turn more sails? now thats just unheard of! rare realllllllyyyy needs to fix this
    solo slooping is meant to be harder. That is because if you get hit off the ship you are almost guaranteed to sink. While having 4 people you need to balance and have the whole crew working so people can actually turn the sails.

    I dont care how much more damage i take, if i have FOUR people on a sloop nothing can take us. one steering 2 repairing and one on cannons at all times?? that is not ok. This is a VERY bad idea, will take a large amount of coding and break the game ending up in rare needing to waste time to destroy the code, making the code, fixing bugs with the code, and fixing bugs that destroying the code would require. this is a SOLID NO.

    not meant to be rude, just in a really sarcastic mood today

  • Zitchas
    Castaway

    @rtl-saint Thanks for the warning about today being a sarcastic day. But yeah, fair enough in regards to the code.

    Alternative: How about having a PvE server where they just remove the crew caps entirely so people can sail whatever they want with however many people they want? 'Cause really, more people is more or less irrelevant for PvE, and I honestly don't want to be in PvP anyway.

    Or maybe figure out some alternative benefit other than crew count for the ship sizes? There is no practical reason why we couldn't have three people on a sloop. Or even four. The only reason is PvP balance. No PvP, then no need for that restriction.

  • RTL Saint
    Sailor

    @zitchas if the pve server has the same rules as current pve servers, no gold, commendation, nothing. Also pve events,flameheart would be a joke, heck, fleets would be a joke.

  • Zitchas
    Castaway

    @rtl-saint What PvE servers are you playing on that strip all of that? That's a hefty stick to keep people stuck living in fear. Why don't you boost the rewards on the PvP side instead to make it worth their while? I don't see any reason why PvE shouldn't get gold or whatnot. They're still overcoming challenges and obstacles. The only rewards I shouldn't get are the ones that relate to PvP combat.

    But either way, this isn't actually about PvP vs PvE, this suggestion is about finding a way to allow groups of 3 or 4 casual players (who aren't interested in PvP or intense teamwork exercises) to play on sloops, so the one (or sometimes 2) players who really like the sailing part can carry the rest of the team. It's either this, or we go find something else to play instead. We're not enjoying the Brig experience, and not looking forward to being forced into a galleon when we are actually on all together.

    And that actually brings up another point. We're a group of 4 new players all starting out together, wanting to play together, although so far, it's only 3 of us online at a time. None of us are veterans, so we're basically thrown into a situation of either "don't play with our friends and get to use the simpler ship" or "get stuck using the more complex ship that we have trouble handling that isn't as much fun."

  • RTL Saint
    Sailor

    @zitchas this has been suggested so many times, an rare have put careful consideration into this. most of the player base is sick of people asking for easier game aka bigger crew size or pve servers so im done talking until some good points are brought up. Its important for a crwe to learn for everyone to contribute and help sail especially in pvp. nobody can be a stowaway.
    im trying to teach not be rude

  • Zitchas
    Castaway

    @rtl-saint OK, an alternate way of saying what I'm saying is this: "Some people have perfectly valid reasons that they can't make a commitment to being a 100% dedicated to the task crew member and are looking for a more casual participation. Why not open things up so that these people can accompany people here? They're never going to be hardcore combatants, they'll probably never be salty sea dogs that can solo even a sloop. They're interested in being here to do stuff with their friends. Sure, call them stowaways if you want. Or Passengers. Whatever you call them, they are players who aren't interested in the complexities of running a ship themselves, and are unlikely to ever gell as an effective team member.

    Case in point, yesterday, we got ambushed and someone boarded us via canon-fire. I barely had time to say "we're being boarded" before they were dead.

    Come to think of it, whoever boarded us seemed to be moving awfully fast. I was on the helm with a clear view of most of the ship, and I couldn't keep my eye on them. They moved like a zephyr. (I died less than 5 seconds after the boarder came onboard. Two people, one of whom was on deck and one beneath, dead in under 5 seconds seems really fast. Is that normal?

    Anyway, that's besides the point. The main point is that I don't anticipate our extra crew being particularly effective in PvP; and much more likely to freeze up.

    But the bigger thing here is being newbie friendly to those starting out. We're starting out as a group of 3 (sometimes 4). So right out of the gate, we're basically faced with the choice of either "one person solos while the other two are together and everyone can learn to do stuff in sloops." or "Right off the bat we have to figure out how to run a more complex ship." Neither one of those options is very appealing.

    Basically, the baseline of this whole thing is to divorce the number of crew and the complexity of the ship. I don't really care how it is done, and admitedly the current setup works pretty nicely for an arena or other pure PvP setup. With this crew, though, if we're ever in PvP, then I failed as a Captain. None of us are interested in PvP, but we love the environment and the other challenges, and collecting the outfits to outfit our pirate is fun too.

  • RTL Saint
    Sailor

    @zitchas no, the game is not going to cater to new players. if they decide to get good they dont need EIGHT PEOPLE on a galleon. that would be one person steering, 2 on repairs 2 on cannons and THREE boardings at all times. that would be op no matter what.

  • Zitchas
    Castaway

    @rtl-saint eight people? Do Galleons normally allow 6? My original idea up there is +2 people. So on a Galleon, as I understand it, it would enable 6 people instead of 4, but everyone both does 50% less damage to other players and takes 50% more damage from other players. Two extra, not four.

  • RTL Saint
    Sailor

    @zitchas still a terrible idea. you just need to get some playesr that acually help out and not ring a bell 10 thousand times

  • Zitchas
    Castaway

    @rtl-saint That's about as helpful as saying "Get gud." I'm not ditching my friends to find some better players. I'm playing the game to have fun with my friends, not trying to recruit new strangers.

  • RTL Saint
    Sailor

    @zitchas let's say you couldn't breathe. You're asking for +2 extra lungs because you don't know how to breathe and you don't want to go to the hospital. Either get gud and learn how to breathe or operate with your own crew and have them become useful. or go to the hospital and get something to help you, aka better players.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @Zitchas This is a terrible idea. Reducing damage for having more pirates doesn't make things balanced, because they would still be unsinkable and 1 heck of a nuisance.

    It also overcomplicates things unnecessarily. 1 of the best features of this game is its horizontal progression, where everyone has the same tools and weapons available to them - this includes the static damage across the board, and allows for true skill to shine through. If 1 pirate does more or less damage than another, then all of a sudden, it's no longer about that skill.

    Your REAL problem is having a few lazybeards for crewmates. Either get them into ship-shape and contribute to the crew, or do the work of finding replacements.

    Lazybeards do exist, unfortunately, but they're not often tolerated for long. Don't let them put yourself in that position, especially if your goal is to be successful.

  • Zitchas
    Castaway

    @galactic-geek The actual goal is to have an enjoyable time with friends that, due to real-life circumstances including the plague, we can't spend time with in person. SoT looked like a really cool game, and we all like adventuring as pirates, so seemed like a good fit.

    Also, don't presume that they are lazy. Some of them have medical conditions that make multi-tasking and excessively twitch based actions... difficult... (case in point combat. Skellies are reasonably predictable, and said players enjoy fighting them. Players, on the other hand, are like drugged bunnies leaping and zipping around all over the place with very little rythm or reason. Intentionally so, since the less predictable they are, the harder to hit. They can't handle that at all, and just die. This is one reason why we'd love a PvE version of the game. Just dealing with a storm while avoiding a skellie will tax their abilities on a bad day, but that's manageable.)

    So yeah, to use your example, I'm asking for the option to get +1 lungs because one of my friends only has 1 lung and can't get a second; so they'll always be operating at half the lung capacity. This is a terrible analogy, but I suppose it works. No amount of "getting gud" will ever overcome the fact that they have half the lung capacity. And no, finding a new crewmate is not an option. I play games to enjoy time with friends, not the other way around. People come first, game second.

    Anyway, the point is literally to splinter the experience a bit. I am really enjoying most parts of the game, but the lack of support for groups of people to get involved as a group is disappointing. As far as I can tell, if we login in two sloops, I don't think there's even any way for us to guarantee that we're on the same server so we can sail together.

    This whole thing is purely to support having extra crew members. Sure, call the stowaways or passengers. Either way, people who will not be engaging in PvP combat, and who are purely here to enjoy the beautiful world and the PvE challenges in the company of their friends.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @zitchas Wow, talk about throwing a curve ball. Don't expect a pity party from me regarding your friends. I don't know them. What I care about is balance - and simply having an extra set of eyes to spot other ships, and another set of hands to carry, dig, shoot, interact, etc. that you're not supposed to have breaks that overall balance.

    Regarding your friends, you're choosing to play with them, which is perfectly fine, but knowing their limitations means that you have to expect that things will be harder. It's the same as a solo slooper - they expect things to be harder because they also lack manpower, but they don't complain because they reasonably understand that.

    You can't ask the game to change to meet those limitations anymore than they already have, at least not in the way that you're asking. Your friends have numerous accessibility settings, not to mention the accessibility controller that has already helped so many.

    Rare is only able to do so much for your friends while still maintaining balance. Instead of attempting to put pressure on them, try putting pressure on yourself and yours. Experiment with new ideas or ways to do things, or try something different if it doesn't work. For example, if your friends have trouble during combat, then how about you pick up the slack there and let them handle the ship?

  • RTL Saint
    Sailor

    @zitchas said in Suggestion: Ship crew overloading (and underloading?):

    So yeah, to use your example, I'm asking for the option to get +1 lungs because one of my friends only has 1 lung and can't get a second; so they'll always be operating at half the lung capacity. This is a terrible analogy, but I suppose it works. No amount of "getting gud" will ever overcome the fact that they have half the lung capacity. And no, finding a new crewmate is not an option. I play games to enjoy time with friends, not the other way around. People come first, game second.
    pay attention to the analogy do not twist it into somthing that benifits you. I said your 2 lungs (your teamates) are not good and you dont want to go to the hospitol to get new ones, so your asking god to give you 2 more so your other lungs can feel useful. your thinking makes no sense not the analogy.

  • Zitchas
    Castaway

    sigh

    And this is why, in that other PvE / PvP thread, I mentioned that I support having a seperate game mode that lets people play the game as pure PvE. Me getting to play pure PvE with just my friends would mean that Rare could be more flexible about numbers of crew without worrying about PvP balance. It would mean that people could play the game without having to be good at everything in the game. It would mean we could enjoy playing the way we want to play. I'm not insisting that you play the game that way. Nor anyone else, it is simply a request that these other non-pvp options be available.

    But anyway, you lot seem to prefer stomping on people's ideas and insisting on "Getting Gud" as the only possible remedy, rather than offering actually useful suggestions, variations, or changes. You also don't seem to understand the problem. The problem is that a group of new, inexperienced, players (including 1 with medical conditions that prevent them from handling PvP) want to be able to learn the game using a simple ship. The only two options you provide are... Get new friends, or jump in the deep end and learn a complex ship that is designed to make full use of all the crew. Neither of these are solutions.

    Circling around to the earlier point about PvE - This problem is at the core of why some people want a version of this game that de-emphasizes PvP. Because then purely artificial restrictions like the crew capacity of a sloop no longer matter. Just because a version of the game that de-emphasizes your preferred gameplay doesn't make yours any less relevant... But it would make a lot of us happier. Isn't that a good thing for the user base as a whole? What are you afraid of? That you won't have easy pickings in people that don't like PvP to pick on anymore?

    Honestly, I am beginning to suspect that all of you "insiders" and "founders" are so far removed from what it is like to actually start this game and learn it that what you have to say is basically irrelevant to the issue at hand. Why don't you go gather up a hundred or two players with less than 30h of gameplay and see what they think about the topic? Probably be a lot more relevant.

    Actually, that's not a bad idea. Use "total number of player kills" that a person has achieved as a ranking, and then group people into servers based on that. Then at least everyone will be roughly the same experience level. That'd at least make things feel a bit more equal.

    Anyway, I'm kind of salty about how this community treats any suggestion that would minimize PvP or cater to a more social environment for this game, so I'm ending this here.

    Good luck to you all, and here's hoping someone clones this game into a PvE that I'll be able to more fully enjoy.

  • RTL Saint
    Sailor

    @zitchas sigh im sick of kids coming from minecraft screaming at people for taking their loot. And then they come to the forums asking for an easier game. sigh i will never understand the "my friends are disabled so give me extra crewmates"

  • Lem0n Curry
    Vanguard
    Insider

    @zitchas
    Or,

    • you could have tried to sail on a sloop, and use that experience to sail on a brig or galleon with only two people doing things - they have more sails, go faster, slower wheel and turning circle. They are not impossible to handle with less than the maximum number of crew.
    • you could have asked experienced players how to master sailing on a brig or galleon with an understaffed crew or asked to sail with them
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