Combat and sword

  • Now, just to be clear. This is a very controversial topic. Please keep the comments appropriate and do not harass anyone. Everything you say can be misinterpreted. So make sure you respect everyone and their opinion.

    So about a year ago now, rare decided to change how the sword mechanics worked. Now I'm sure alot of people understand what I am talking about but to those who don't let me recap. There have been numerous PvP nerfs and changes. Let's start from doublegun. Doublegun was an issue from the start of sea of thieves. In a way where people had to press 3 buttons within a short period of time to kill someone that was something that needed to be fixed. Wasn't really a problem people were encouraged to use a sword even more. So that did. It was a known mechanic where if you were to lunge a floor or a wall or something, you could do a block jump in a direction followed by a normal jump to cancel the cool down. It was a pretty skillful technique but not in a way where people could macro it and make it completely unfair against eachother. However on pc, you could easily bind your scroll wheel to your jump key and go at the speed of a lunge. A simple fix to this could be something as simple as making it so you can't use scroll wheel to jump. That got patched. The thing that frustrated me the most is I was playing on xbox and that feature was giving me a chance against skilled pc players. When that got removed, people still diddnt want to double gun because of the god awful slow delay. Let me run down what animation canceling is, say you head over to dig a chest, you would tap the chest, put your shovel away, then pull it out and it would dig faster. Anyone who learnt that mechanic would be more efficient towards anyone who diddnt. And because the good pvpers understood that, they tried doing it with sword, and behold, the double stow exploit. A simple 3 button combination where you would gain an advantage over someone who wasn't doing it. In this case, natural selection made a few some of the best known sword players.

    These players would go on islands and fight eachother. Using these mechanics to them it would be a whole lot of fun. And I agree. It was fun. It was incredibly fun. The best part about it was a skilled xbox player who knew the mechanic could win against a skilled pc player. Times were very balanced. Everyone was having fun. New players who wanted to learn did learn. Double gun exploit was also something. Double gun at the moment is another topic. The really irritating thing, is rare nerfed the x cancel with the sword, but the diddnt do the same thing with doublegun. For a pvper who was somewhat experienced with the sword it felt like rare was hindering on our play style and making our time less enjoyable. This is an amazing game but I was heart broken about this nerf. The real competition was in this mechanic. If you were to put a skilled sword user against 4 unskilled sword users, the skilled sword user would win 9 put of 10 times. Now with the sword being what it is now, you will always get outnumbered and outspammed.

    These is 2 suggestions I would hope to see in this game before I quit, I would love to see the sword being balanced in a way where it is skillful to an extent. Where I believe rare went wrong, when you miss a slash you were punished with a walkspeed slowdown. But on a hit slash, the enemy was punished with a walkspeed slowdown. This was the main key that balanced doublegun to sword. Because a skilled sword user was incredibly hard to hit when he was doing a lockdown. Now, the sword feels too simple and clunky. Rare, please listen to this, sword needs to be both skillful, and unskillful. The skillful players understand the mechanics. And the unskilled won't. Over time people will improve. People have improved.

    Sword needs to be 20% damage, a missed slash slows your walkspeed, where as a hit slash needs to slow down theirs, and we need to be able to do a block jump quicker after a slash. Good momevent will throw off a doublegunner.

    As for the second suggestion, I don't even know if it's possible, just an idea, but this idea would change the way pvpers would play tremendously. Take Minecraft for an example, people were used to spam clicking for PvP. Then, when 1.9 rolled out and took that out of the game, so many people stayed back in 1.8 to PvP. We need this rare. We need to be able to go back to anniversary edition. We need to be able to have fun and host tournaments. We need to be able to see who the best player is when the sword was a skillful weapon. This game has changed. I understand not everyone will agree, but I'm 100% certain that majority of PvP oriented players would agree with me. We need to go back to anniversary edition. Even if it's not anniversary, and it's the same game. When custom servers release, we need to be able to tick a box that says "old combat" where these techniques were in the game. If you think about it, it will make everyone happy.

    The way I saw old combat, if you had a good player against a bad player, the good player would always win. But if you had 2 good players, it would be a sweaty fight to the death .

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  • Not to mention how atrocious hit reg still is.

    I agree that their nerfs were bad and weren't fleshed out much at all. They have honestly been taking things out of the game that would keep players around. I love the PVP, but I also liked being able to earn things people couldn't now that time limited stuff seems to be gone and pvp is so broken what is the point of playing? The cosmetics don't really matter anymore because they just give it away through monthly events now, especially cosmetics you had to GRIND for the current give away of arena cosmetics is a pretty big slap in the face to everyone that ground arena pvping to get everything unlocked.

    I think the biggest issue honestly is when they opened up insider to the public and started giving rewards for an hour a week of play. So many bugs go unnoticed, or just flat out ignored. I don't know how many bugs, glitches, and problems I have reported that I just get the thank you note only to see that issue make it to the retail. So I also think they should remove insider from being public and give it back to the hardcore people that actually want to game to succeed.

    But all in all I agree with you, what you have stated is about 60% of the reason I have uninstalled the game on all my devices but my media xbox in my basement. Along with numerous other reasons, but the PVP, Lies about PL content, and no challenge/thrill anymore due how easy it is to get stuff.

    The PVP is BROKEN in a PVP game.

  • @umiboshi03 I agree. This game needs alot of work. I just want to see a future where I get to have fun and fight my friends. Not just fighting my friends with this god awful combat

  • Ya that would be nice to go back to old combat so I could double faster.

  • Really hoping we get to see the option of being able to choose what combat build to play on once private servers roll out

  • @sparrowhxwk exactly. I would love to have a few good sword duels with my friends. It's not not as fun as it used to be

  • You are asking for Rare to go backwards? They're not even done going forward yet! From the get-go, they said the combat changes would take time. They are still working on it, piece by piece, ensuring that no more major mistakes are made along the way.

    Most of what was removed was exploitive in nature, and many issues have been resolved due to numerous fixes.

    While combat was bad for a time, it has greatly improved in numerous ways. Sword combat is faster, with less stun, there's practically no DGE, the sword dodge works great, the charge is balanced, you can no longer combo off the environment, and your next attack is delayed if you miss - all of this, and oh so much more.

    If you want a fair fight on Xbox, sail on the Xbox-friendly Sea - it's always an option nowadays.

    Reducing damage would automatically make DG users better as they could tank a sword hit and still kill you - ranged weapons aren't supposed to have the advantage in melee.

    In my experience, most pirates are woefully under-skilled when it comes to the sword. For example, most don't know that you can use the dodge to go through an enemy space to setup a backstab, or how to do a running slash at diagonal angles to get around a block, or even how to move effectively to maintain their block.

    The only legitimate issue combat wise, that I see at this late-stage in the game, is hit-reg. Once that gets resolved to an acceptable degree, than all will be good combat-wise upon the waves, IMO.

  • @galactic-geek said in Combat and sword:

    You are asking for Rare to go backwards? They're not even done going forward yet! From the get-go, they said the combat changes would take time. They are still working on it, piece by piece, ensuring that no more major mistakes are made along the way.

    Most of what was removed was exploitive in nature, and many issues have been resolved due to numerous fixes.

    While combat was bad for a time, it has greatly improved in numerous ways. Sword combat is faster, with less stun, there's practically no DGE, the sword dodge works great, the charge is balanced, you can no longer combo off the environment, and your next attack is delayed if you miss - all of this, and oh so much more.

    If you want a fair fight on Xbox, sail on the Xbox-friendly Sea - it's always an option nowadays.

    Reducing damage would automatically make DG users better as they could tank a sword hit and still kill you - ranged weapons aren't supposed to have the advantage in melee.

    In my experience, most pirates are woefully under-skilled when it comes to the sword. Most don't know that you can use the dodge to go through an enemy space to setup a backstab, or how to do a running slash at diagonal angles to get around a block, or even how to move effectively to maintain their block.

    The only legitimate issue combat wise, that I see at this late-stage in the game, is hit-reg. Once that gets resolved to an acceptable degree, than all will be good combat-wise upon the waves, IMO.

    You're not understanding the whole point of this post are you, I'm talking about an old version of combat. A skillful version. You're wrong for saying combat is quicker. It was way more quicker before compared to now. Back in anniversary, a good sword player could beat a good dg player. It all depended on the scenario. Things are so much slower compared to how they used to be. Simply pulling our your weapon to block takes about a half a second. And that dosnt even count towards ping either. It used to be instant. If you want me to show you a video of old sword and how quick it was compared to new sword I will show you. Let me know. But you are incorrect. Leave this one to the big boys ok

  • I wish the old sword was a thing 😪

  • @vrollix said in Combat and sword:

    I wish the old sword was a thing 😪

    Exactly why I'm suggesting that in custom servers they make an option to use the old combat system. Duels were so much more intense and way more fun. Now it feels like it's a constant go in for a dash attack, x cancel and dash back out, where as it was hit a slash walk around x cancel dash through hit again jump over hit again dash attack and you got the perfect and cleanest looking lockdown. Way better than what we have now

  • @galactic-geek also how do I sail the xbox "friendly" sea? That sounds like a slaughtering on its own

  • @galactic-geek When I think of the old sword, I think of this:

    If you pay attention also, theres a few times a doublegunner stands still trying to figure out where the sword player went only to find out when he 180s, the sword user is already on the other side of him. It's this meta that gave sword the edge. Also double stow made the block work instantly. Now block dosnt even work half the time. It mainly has it him dumpstering new players, he also has some really sweaty fights against other good sword users.
    But when we look at new sword, I instantly think of this:
    What looks more fun? You decide

  • @vorxet said in Combat and sword:

    @galactic-geek said in Combat and sword:

    You are asking for Rare to go backwards? They're not even done going forward yet! From the get-go, they said the combat changes would take time. They are still working on it, piece by piece, ensuring that no more major mistakes are made along the way.

    Most of what was removed was exploitive in nature, and many issues have been resolved due to numerous fixes.

    While combat was bad for a time, it has greatly improved in numerous ways. Sword combat is faster, with less stun, there's practically no DGE, the sword dodge works great, the charge is balanced, you can no longer combo off the environment, and your next attack is delayed if you miss - all of this, and oh so much more.

    If you want a fair fight on Xbox, sail on the Xbox-friendly Sea - it's always an option nowadays.

    Reducing damage would automatically make DG users better as they could tank a sword hit and still kill you - ranged weapons aren't supposed to have the advantage in melee.

    In my experience, most pirates are woefully under-skilled when it comes to the sword. Most don't know that you can use the dodge to go through an enemy space to setup a backstab, or how to do a running slash at diagonal angles to get around a block, or even how to move effectively to maintain their block.

    The only legitimate issue combat wise, that I see at this late-stage in the game, is hit-reg. Once that gets resolved to an acceptable degree, than all will be good combat-wise upon the waves, IMO.

    You're not understanding the whole point of this post are you, I'm talking about an old version of combat. A skillful version. You're wrong for saying combat is quicker. It was way more quicker before compared to now. Back in anniversary, a good sword player could beat a good dg player. It all depended on the scenario. Things are so much slower compared to how they used to be. Simply pulling our your weapon to block takes about a half a second. And that dosnt even count towards ping either. It used to be instant. If you want me to show you a video of old sword and how quick it was compared to new sword I will show you. Let me know. But you are incorrect. Leave this one to the big boys ok

    You're right, it was faster in the past, but that was largely due to the very exploits you mentioned in your initial post. Also, going back to the Anniversary update was when the combat was at its worst - that's when a single sword strike, even blocked, would stun you to the point of death, and the dodge didn't work at all. You want to talk about clunky? It doesn't get any worse than that. Since then, sword combat has been sped up again, but in a different manner. It's clear that you're just not used to, or adapted to, that. Drawing weapons is slower, but for good reason - it brings balance. As for the block, it's near instant, not a half second.

  • @galactic-geek also the other problem about sword, when fighting other really good players it's horrendious. There is no dashing behind people to catch the off guard. Yea it might work against an xbox player on 3 sensitivity, but against someone who also knows how to do it, that's where the lockdown and x cancel comes in. Half of the 1v1s are just people blocking hits and managing to get maybe a 2 hit combo in and then back to blocks

  • @galactic-geek again, you're very incorrect. As a player who used the sword before anniversary, during anniversary, and after anniversary, combat right now is very clunky. How come they don't patch the quick shovel? Compared to how it used to be, sword and combat overall is very terrible

  • @galactic-geek also,

    11 months ago, enough time for people to learn the sword and get goodwith double stow, to me it dosnt look like blocks and dashes wernt working

  • @vorxet said in Combat and sword:

    @galactic-geek again, you're very incorrect. As a player who used the sword before anniversary, during anniversary, and after anniversary, combat right now is very clunky. How come they don't patch the quick shovel? Compared to how it used to be, sword and combat overall is very terrible

    They can only do so much over time. In regards to the shovel, I asked myself that same question with silent ship repairs, and that just got fixed last patch.

    I've been sailing virtually nonstop since the closed alpha, so don't start thinking that I don't know things.

  • @galactic-geek yes I'm aware, but the sword combat right now, is horrendous. Do you know doublegun isn't the only time people encounter hitreg?

  • @galactic-geek I slashed my mate 8 times with sword on insider a few weeks ago

  • @vorxet said in Combat and sword:

    @galactic-geek yes I'm aware, but the sword combat right now, is horrendous. Do you know doublegun isn't the only time people encounter hitreg?

    I rarely encounter issues with hit-reg. Once a week at best, and almost never with sword. Then again, it's largely based upon the server, and network connection, so maybe I'm just lucky compared to most.

    As for that video, I've seen it before and all it shows is everything that was wrong with sword combat (the aforementioned exploits) - it's too fast, and over relied on the lunge. Now, you can use the normal attack effectively, have a reason to dodge, can block, and now it feels more like an actual pirate fight, and not some sort of slip and slide trampoline paradise.

  • @galactic-geek okay, but it was skillful, you refer to it as exploiting, but exploiting means:In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, speed or level design etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers. Exploits have been classified as a form of cheating; however, the precise determination of what is or is not considered an exploit can be controversial.
    Being good and understanding a mechanic shouldnt be looked down upon, it was easy to do, its the fact that we were so used to it and rare just took it out like it was nothing. yes we adapted. but the whole purpose to this post was maybe just maybe having a chance to use it again. in private servers, where the game dosnt matter, people could do tournamants with it, friends could have fun, because i know, if i had to pay a montly subscription just to use those mechanics again, i would buy a subscription without any question. i'm sure alot of players would do the same

  • @galactic-geek i'm not here to argue, i respect your opinon, but i would do alot just to go back to the old times where pvp was fun. and yes. to me and ALOT of other players, doublestowing and using the old sword was very fun

  • @vorxet said in Combat and sword:

    @galactic-geek i'm not here to argue, i respect your opinon, but i would do alot just to go back to the old times where pvp was fun. and yes. to me and ALOT of other players, doublestowing and using the old sword was very fun

    The exploits, or if you prefer, unintended mechanics, were largely removed chiefly for 2 reasons - an imbalance to gameplay, and unintended side effects. Take the sword-lunge cool-down reset, for example - it had both issues. Not everyone could do it, so how could it possibly lead to a fair fight? For it to be considered true skill, the decision has to rely solely on the pirate's choices during combat, not whether they have access to a specific mechanic or not. It also created unintended symptoms that needed to be treated - for example, an over-reliance on lingering instead of other known mechanics. That means less versatility during a fight, and less fun overall. Even you, I'm sure, would get bored with constantly lunging.

    The double-stowing you refer to is also known as the infinite sword swing - it's very name implies what's wrong with it.

    Why would you think the devs would want either of these mechanics when they're both supposed to have cooldown after?

    I'm glad you're airing your opinion, but I just want you to look at the bigger picture as a whole. The game itself isn't designed for just you, or even me. It was designed with everybody in mind. Regardless of that, ultimately, it's not your game, or even ours - it was made for us, sure, but it still belongs to Rare. Your only real choice is whether or not you choose to play it.

    In the end, the only real difference between us is that I find the changes agreeable and am looking forward to what's to come, while you don't, and are reminiscing about the past.

    Remember, it's not about going back in time - it's about learning from the past to move into a better future.

  • @galactic-geek i know xbox players with disabilities who play on adaptive controllers who used to do the sword lunge reset. if someone wanted to learn they could have. i learnt. i have a feeling you never got to experience the fun in it though. you never know, if they make an old combat version in custom servers you might enjoy it. i know it was really fun and easy. like riding a bike. it was hard at first to learn, but it was easy as after you do it. its the way of explaining it that differs.

  • @galactic-geek also i've never heard anyone call it infinite sword swing. hop reset? maybe double stow? slash reset? animation canceling? put it this way, i know xbox players who can do it and use to clap pc players who did it. so if anything it helped with the skill cap

  • @vorxet You're right about 1 thing - I couldn't do it. I practiced it a lot too. Never was consistent. That doesn't make me a bad player though. I have placed on numerous fighting game leaderboards and tournaments over the years, so I'm no stranger to high-speed mechanics and timing.

  • @galactic-geek its the way of explination that i struggled to learn also, over time it just came naturally, put it this way, not that it matters much anymore, but put a block jump in front of a normal jump, then before you land, you should already be blocking when you land, and when you do, do a block hop again. really simple, but some of the ways people explained it were hard to understand. rare shouldn't have nerfed it, instead teamed up with good pvpers, and gotten them to add in game hint videos or something. instead of blocking out the community

  • @galactic-geek another idea, instead of making it an x cancel, if thats too hard, they should make it where you can just dash straight away.

  • @vorxet said in Combat and sword:

    @galactic-geek also i've never heard anyone call it infinite sword swing. hop reset? maybe double stow? slash reset? animation canceling? put it this way, i know xbox players who can do it and use to clap pc players who did it. so if anything it helped with the skill cap

    It's not necessarily about who's good on which platform - it's about balance as a whole. If anything, IMO, such things actually widened the skill gap, and not necessarily because of skill.

    A good example of accessible gameplay with a virtual unending skill ceiling is Rocket League - another of my favorite games. Anyone can pick up and play, but even the players at the highest levels are still learning new things and improving all of the time.

  • @vorxet said in Combat and sword:

    @galactic-geek its the way of explination that i struggled to learn also, over time it just came naturally, put it this way, not that it matters much anymore, but put a block jump in front of a normal jump, then before you land, you should already be blocking when you land, and when you do, do a block hop again. really simple, but some of the ways people explained it were hard to understand. rare shouldn't have nerfed it, instead teamed up with good pvpers, and gotten them to add in game hint videos or something. instead of blocking out the community

    I learned that during a sword dodge, if you hold the block for too long, you get pinned in place due to the slow movement of the held block, almost like the sword-lunge cooldown. So, over time, I forced myself to let it go so I could do more upon landing much faster. Based upon your explanation, this might have been why I couldn't do it. Heck, even as good as I am, even I fudge an advanced sword lunge and jump from time to time.

  • @vorxet said in Combat and sword:

    @galactic-geek another idea, instead of making it an x cancel, if thats too hard, they should make it where you can just dash straight away.

    Nah. Again, that defeats the purpose of having a cooldown in the 1st place.

  • @galactic-geek screw the cooldown. all they do is make it slower. the game is better without them.

  • @galactic-geek said in Combat and sword:

    @vorxet said in Combat and sword:

    @galactic-geek its the way of explination that i struggled to learn also, over time it just came naturally, put it this way, not that it matters much anymore, but put a block jump in front of a normal jump, then before you land, you should already be blocking when you land, and when you do, do a block hop again. really simple, but some of the ways people explained it were hard to understand. rare shouldn't have nerfed it, instead teamed up with good pvpers, and gotten them to add in game hint videos or something. instead of blocking out the community

    I learned that during a sword dodge, if you hold the block for too long, you get pinned in place due to the slow movement of the held block, almost like the sword-lunge cooldown. So, over time, I forced myself to let it go so I could do more upon landing much faster. Based upon your explanation, this might have been why I couldn't do it. Heck, even as good as I am, even I fudge an advanced sword lunge and jump from time to time.

    yea, the sword takes countless hours to master, once you learn it you can beat other players with it. or thats how it used to be. put a sword god against another sword god today, sword god fight gonna be slow sluggish and broken, but put a sword goat against 4 sword semi noobs, the sword semi noobs would win 9 out of 10 times. go back a year, put a sword god against 4 sword semi noobs, sword god would win 10 out of 10 times. skill gap and skill cap is reduced, and that's what i dislike about it so much

  • @vorxet said in Combat and sword:

    @galactic-geek screw the cooldown. all they do is make it slower. the game is better without them.

    Depends on who you're talking to, 'cause balance.

  • @vorxet said in Combat and sword:

    @galactic-geek said in Combat and sword:

    @vorxet said in Combat and sword:

    @galactic-geek its the way of explination that i struggled to learn also, over time it just came naturally, put it this way, not that it matters much anymore, but put a block jump in front of a normal jump, then before you land, you should already be blocking when you land, and when you do, do a block hop again. really simple, but some of the ways people explained it were hard to understand. rare shouldn't have nerfed it, instead teamed up with good pvpers, and gotten them to add in game hint videos or something. instead of blocking out the community

    I learned that during a sword dodge, if you hold the block for too long, you get pinned in place due to the slow movement of the held block, almost like the sword-lunge cooldown. So, over time, I forced myself to let it go so I could do more upon landing much faster. Based upon your explanation, this might have been why I couldn't do it. Heck, even as good as I am, even I fudge an advanced sword lunge and jump from time to time.

    yea, the sword takes countless hours to master, once you learn it you can beat other players with it. or thats how it used to be. put a sword god against another sword god today, sword god fight gonna be slow sluggish and broken, but put a sword goat against 4 sword semi noobs, the sword semi noobs would win 9 out of 10 times. go back a year, put a sword god against 4 sword semi noobs, sword god would win 10 out of 10 times. skill gap and skill cap is reduced, and that's what i dislike about it so much

    I disagree. I am an expert sword user, and know things about it that literally, no joke, no other pirate I encounter knows - regardless of skill level (and remember, I've been sailing virtually nonstop since the closed alpha). I teach my methods to those willing to listen, and as a result, they too improve.

    Be that as it may, I do lose from time to time. But do you know why? Because of my own mistakes. Knowledge of mechanics is incredibly useful, but it only gets you so far. Even a fresh pirate off the boat can get lucky from time to time.

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