I'm putting this way more politely than I should to get Rare to take this issue seriously and actually fix it, but Rare, you really need to rework the entire sword fighting system. Completely and utterly. Like say for example I go up to someone with a sword and get the first swing off without him even knowing I'm there. That should mean he is stun locked at least until the third swing, right? No! Because you guys can't get your bearings and implement this properly into the game to begin with, he can just turn around during my second swing, hit me once and stun lock me without fail, end my set of sword swings, and get the killing blow in with me being completely helpless. Can't swing a sword, can't block, can't try to back up to try and run to eat food and go for a second round. NOTHING! THEN, there's the infernal issue with hit registration you guys can't seem to get down. Let's say it's a similar situation where I walk up behind a guy who's completely oblivious to my presence and I start swinging at him. When you hit an enemy in the game, you're supposed to be able to follow up with two consecutive swings afterwards. But there is an issue where you will hit someone, the damage will register on their health, but the action of you swinging your sword and hitting someone will not, so it will act as if you missed your target, even though didn't. This doesn't just happen when fighting players, by the way. It happens on anything you can damage with your sword. So skeletons, sharks, pigs, etc. And on the subject of who this issue affects across all platforms: EVERYONE suffers from this. Whether you're on console with a controller or PC with a keyboard, this happens on both sides of the spectrum. No one is excluded from suffering this nonsense. It is completely unacceptable and an outright lazy effort on your part Rare. FIX. THIS. IMMEDIATELY. Stop shoving extra content down our throats every month and POLISH YOUR GAME. Of all technical issues. Not just these ones. If you don't, I can almost guarantee you that your playerbase is going to drop off the face of the earth in a big freakin' hurry.
Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.
Frist off i just want to say i feel your pain. The sword fighting system is basic and cumbersum an could use a rework.
However as far as the Hitreg issue is concerned that is not a software issue it's a network issue. The people that make content are NoT the same people whos job it is to fix hit reg. So please stop asking for them to stop making content cause your just having more people doing nothing.
It's also not an easy thing to fix as a positive fix for one player can negtively affect another. There is no such thing as a cure all to hitreg. You need very powerful servers with high tic rates, very well written net code perdictive algarthyms/priotization and a player base of high bandwith to host local data. Even with all that you still gonna have issues.
Basically your barking up the wrong tree. Rare is working diligently on the issue but they are limited. Let the dev do what they do best and dev content, there another Team who's job is expressly ment to solve issues.
@noelt2000
Sword vs sword pvp does need changes. But hopefully I can shed some light as to why the hit registration sucks.Someone did a test, they created a mod that tracked the tickrate of the server. The video was months ago, but it should still hold true. Anyways, when they were just walking around the tickrate was between 10-12, and when they were shooting their weapons it went down to an 8 tickrate. For reference, CSGO has a tickrate of 64 and Valorant has a tickrate of 128. 8 is an abysmal tickrate and opens up the door to a lot of hitreg.
The reason for why the servers have an 8 tickrate is because of the Microsoft Azure servers, the servers Sea of Thieves runs on. Since the servers and Sea of Thieves are owned by Microsoft, it's probably in Rare's contract that they have to use the Azure servers for SOT. And I would assume that Microsoft isn't going to let a gaming company completely change how the Azure servers work, because there are many other people who also use those servers, so changing it for SOT would affect other people.
That's why hitreg is so bad for Sea of Thieves, the servers themselves are the problem. And because Rare is partnered with Microsoft, they can't just change servers, so they are stuck fixing a broken machine instead of just replacing it.
@kaijoi said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
@noelt2000
Sword vs sword pvp does need changes. But hopefully I can shed some light as to why the hit registration sucks.Someone did a test, they created a mod that tracked the tickrate of the server. The video was months ago, but it should still hold true. Anyways, when they were just walking around the tickrate was between 10-12, and when they were shooting their weapons it went down to an 8 tickrate. For reference, CSGO has a tickrate of 64 and Valorant has a tickrate of 128. 8 is an abysmal tickrate and opens up the door to a lot of hitreg.
The reason for why the servers have an 8 tickrate is because of the Microsoft Azure servers, the servers Sea of Thieves runs on. Since the servers and Sea of Thieves are owned by Microsoft, it's probably in Rare's contract that they have to use the Azure servers for SOT. And I would assume that Microsoft isn't going to let a gaming company completely change how the Azure servers work, because there are many other people who also use those servers, so changing it for SOT would affect other people.
That's why hitreg is so bad for Sea of Thieves, the servers themselves are the problem. And because Rare is partnered with Microsoft, they can't just change servers, so they are stuck fixing a broken machine instead of just replacing it.
I've seen you state this before but recently i saw a video showing a tic rate of 30 and flucturates between the areas such as on a ship, dock, in water and on an island. The issue seem to be more with th large gap between client reciving packets vs sending packets so even tho the tic rate is at 30 which is still preety low i'll admit it has to do more with the client side then server side.
Still more info is needed and Rare has made changes to the system. It hard to say for sure where the problem lies. The Azure servers do however are soley responsible for the merging machnic tho from the research ive done.Is this a recent video? The video I saw was showing an 8 tickrate, if it changed I need to update the copy paste.
Wasn't sure how recent it was compared to th video you mention as oddly enough i was resarching looking for your video that you mententioned and found that one which was about a mounth old on youtube.
Do you have the link to that original video?
@kaijoi said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
@enf0rcer No, but I remember watching it about 8 months ago, so it was a while ago.
Dang, awe well at least they are making improvements. More test need to be done into this.
While I do have the occasional issue with hit-reg, it's not so extreme that I have to stop playing. I see it maybe once every few weeks. It is still frustrating, and I agree that it needs to be improved, but I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as many purport it to be - then again, I rarely play Arena, so... Yeah.
Also, @Noelt2000 - Stun lock just slows your movement and makes it harder to turn. However, there is a way out of it. Simply sword dodge (move+block+jump). It will hopefully block the attack and/or get you out of the way of the killing blow. It's a way for you to move away from danger, even while stunned.
@galactic-geek said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
While I do have the occasional issue with hit-reg, it's not so extreme that I have to stop playing. I see it maybe once every few weeks. It is still frustrating, and I agree that it needs to be improved, but I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as many purport it to be - then again, I rarely play Arena, so... Yeah.
The issue is not mainly in arena each person depending on there network setup an location will experience hit reg differently. You like me just happen to luck out. Player just report it more in arena cause combat is more fequent in arena that all.
Also, @Noelt2000 - Stun lock just slows your movement and makes it harder to turn. However, there is a way out of it. Simply sword dodge (move+block+jump). It will hopefully block the attack and/or get you out of the way of the killing blow. It's a way for you to move away from danger, even while stunned.
I have found stun-loc to be rather inconsitant some times it doesn't effect me at all and other times its like i'm rooted. Where i cant move, turn, jump, block, or block side step. This applies both to when i'm attackin or defending. Agian hit reg and connection issues play a big part in this. But another big part of this that i don't hear complianed about is the constant equipment/invetory load failures that ethier takes forever to load or requires a full respawn cycle to fix.
@enf0rcer I have had similar experiences with stun where it's inconsistent - sometimes it's fine, and other times I feel like a tree being chopped down.
As far as connections go, mine is far from perfect - it's wired, thank goodness, but it's still just DSL @ 6mbps down and 0.4mbps with ~40-100ms ping on average.
@galactic-geek said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
As far as connections go, mine is far from perfect - it's wired, thank goodness, but it's still just DSL @ 6mbps down and 0.4mbps with ~40-100ms ping on average.
Man you still DSL. I feel sorry you, that must suck i have cable with 200/20mbps. Avg ping of 15ms local 110ms when i play with my overseas freinds.
@enf0rcer Yep. All thanks to my ISP, which is a monopoly. They are the only service I can get where I live, and what I have is the best that they offer. Unless I move, which I can't afford to do, it's not going to change. It's so bad that if you go to their site, it says they don't even offer Internet in my area anymore, and if you quit, they won't let you come back, which means NO Internet at all - I only benefit from continuing with their coverage, which costs me and my family over $200 a month because of their self-imposed data limits that they use to gouge us. What's worse is that we know other people are getting 10x better Internet at only a fraction of the cost and it's absolutely infuriating! We've been fighting for better Internet for over 10 years, and it's like screaming into the void.
Sorry for ranting, but it's a hot-button topic for me.
@kaijoi said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
@enf0rcer No, but I remember watching it about 8 months ago, so it was a while ago.
The servers have never been on a 8 tick rate. Has been 32 ish since launch. And Microsoft Azure has nothing todo with it. There servers can run easily 128 tick rate or higher. Has more todo with how the sea of thieves server software has been designed and build.
@mentimjojo said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
@kaijoi said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
@enf0rcer No, but I remember watching it about 8 months ago, so it was a while ago.
The servers have never been on a 8 tick rate. Has been 32 ish since launch. And Microsoft Azure has nothing todo with it. There servers can run easily 128 tick rate or higher. Has more todo with how the sea of thieves server software has been designed and build.
Just courious how do you know this? Can you provide a source for this info.
@enf0rcer said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
@mentimjojo said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
@kaijoi said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
@enf0rcer No, but I remember watching it about 8 months ago, so it was a while ago.
The servers have never been on a 8 tick rate. Has been 32 ish since launch. And Microsoft Azure has nothing todo with it. There servers can run easily 128 tick rate or higher. Has more todo with how the sea of thieves server software has been designed and build.
Just courious how do you know this? Can you provide a source for this info.
Here are the results of someone actually testing it and posting their results:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Seaofthieves/comments/axpl3h/server_tick_rate_boat_vs_off_boat/@cotu42 said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
@enf0rcer said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
@mentimjojo said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
@kaijoi said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
@enf0rcer No, but I remember watching it about 8 months ago, so it was a while ago.
The servers have never been on a 8 tick rate. Has been 32 ish since launch. And Microsoft Azure has nothing todo with it. There servers can run easily 128 tick rate or higher. Has more todo with how the sea of thieves server software has been designed and build.
Just courious how do you know this? Can you provide a source for this info.
Here are the results of someone actually testing it and posting their results:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Seaofthieves/comments/axpl3h/server_tick_rate_boat_vs_off_boat/Thankyou i saw this video b4 it was the one i mentioned earlier. But this doesn't explian the issue being with the software but instead point to a large descrepency between packets upload and download client side this could be cause ethier by the net code or banwith limitations of the client or just packet delay to network config.
@enf0rcer said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
Thankyou i saw this video b4 it was the one i mentioned earlier. But this doesn't explian the issue being with the software but instead point to a large descrepency between packets upload and download client side this could be cause ethier by the net code or banwith limitations of the client or just packet delay to network config.
Tick rate has everything to do with software - it's the number of updates to the game state that the server makes in a second. The higher the tick rate means more cycles through the game loop and more updates sent out to players.
Tick rate has nothing to do with upload or download speeds.
@d3adst1ck said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
@enf0rcer said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
Thankyou i saw this video b4 it was the one i mentioned earlier. But this doesn't explian the issue being with the software but instead point to a large descrepency between packets upload and download client side this could be cause ethier by the net code or banwith limitations of the client or just packet delay to network config.
Tick rate has everything to do with software - it's the number of updates to the game state that the server makes in a second. The higher the tick rate means more cycles through the game loop and more updates sent out to players.
Tick rate has nothing to do with upload or download speeds.
Yes but the video showed a descrepency with the packet data so yes even tho tic rate is controled by the sofware netcode which is shown to fluctate in the different areas this does not explian hit reg when both players are in the same area which often happens. So even tho tick rate is the amount of packets requested it does not control how many packets are sent/recived which is a network issue.
@enf0rcer said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
@d3adst1ck said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
@enf0rcer said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
Thankyou i saw this video b4 it was the one i mentioned earlier. But this doesn't explian the issue being with the software but instead point to a large descrepency between packets upload and download client side this could be cause ethier by the net code or banwith limitations of the client or just packet delay to network config.
Tick rate has everything to do with software - it's the number of updates to the game state that the server makes in a second. The higher the tick rate means more cycles through the game loop and more updates sent out to players.
Tick rate has nothing to do with upload or download speeds.
Yes but the video showed a descrepency with the packet data so yes even tho tic rate is controled by the sofware netcode which is shown to fluctate in the different areas this does not explian hit reg when both players are in the same area which often happens. So even tho tick rate is the amount of packets requested it does not control how many packets are sent/recived which is a network issue.
That's not what tick rate is at all.
@d3adst1ck said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
@enf0rcer said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
@d3adst1ck said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
@enf0rcer said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
Thankyou i saw this video b4 it was the one i mentioned earlier. But this doesn't explian the issue being with the software but instead point to a large descrepency between packets upload and download client side this could be cause ethier by the net code or banwith limitations of the client or just packet delay to network config.
Tick rate has everything to do with software - it's the number of updates to the game state that the server makes in a second. The higher the tick rate means more cycles through the game loop and more updates sent out to players.
Tick rate has nothing to do with upload or download speeds.
Yes but the video showed a descrepency with the packet data so yes even tho tic rate is controled by the sofware netcode which is shown to fluctate in the different areas this does not explian hit reg when both players are in the same area which often happens. So even tho tick rate is the amount of packets requested it does not control how many packets are sent/recived which is a network issue.
That's not what tick rate is at all.
Tic rate is the the amount of times game state is calculated and upadted this is tied to data packets because the packets contian the data that needs to be upated when a player shoot a shot a packet contains the data of what that shot hit if a player gets hit he sends a packet when the server recives the packets the data is compared. Netcode decides what info will be added to the game state and how often it is updated. Higher tic rate advatages the player with the better connection that can send more packets to the server faster because the game is forced to update the game state with the data that it has recieved.
Thats how that works. Tic rates are tied to packets and there latency there noway around that. All ghe netcode can do is request more packets to be sent to compsate for a higher tic rate.
@enf0rcer Tick rate is independent from latency and packets. The only way it would depend on latency is if it was waiting on responses from the client, in which case the entire game would hang if you lost or had delayed packets.
Data packets give you an idea on what the server tick rate is because they are observable, but they do not influence the tick rate. The server will continue sending data updates at 30 ticks even if the internet is completely disconnected. Nothing will get to it's destination, but that doesn't mean that it still isn't processing cycles at 30 ticks per second.
@d3adst1ck said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
@enf0rcer Tick rate is independent from latency and packets. The only way it would depend on latency is if it was waiting on responses from the client, in which case the entire game would hang if you lost or had delayed packets.
Data packets give you an idea on what the server tick rate is because they are observable, but they do not influence the tick rate. The server will continue sending data updates at 30 ticks even if the internet is completely disconnected. Nothing will get to it's destination, but that doesn't mean that it still isn't processing cycles at 30 ticks per second.
Yes the packets don't influnce the rates the netcode can only request more packets from the clients. The decrepency i see is client side in this video not server side. Tick rates are at 30 ish which is amittly low but due to the simplicity of the game not that big of a deal. This video only explians why hit reg is an issue if players are engaging eachother in spreate areas like from water to ship as the tic rate is different which is not normal in fps games. However this does not explian hit reg when fighting in the same area like a ship. This video shows that it will adjust tic rates accordingly to the amount of action so it doesn't make sense why it would be an issue figthing on ships. This decrepency canonly be explianed by the packet data. Unless you have another theory?
@cotu42 said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
@enf0rcer said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
@mentimjojo said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
@kaijoi said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
@enf0rcer No, but I remember watching it about 8 months ago, so it was a while ago.
The servers have never been on a 8 tick rate. Has been 32 ish since launch. And Microsoft Azure has nothing todo with it. There servers can run easily 128 tick rate or higher. Has more todo with how the sea of thieves server software has been designed and build.
Just courious how do you know this? Can you provide a source for this info.
Here are the results of someone actually testing it and posting their results:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Seaofthieves/comments/axpl3h/server_tick_rate_boat_vs_off_boat/@KaiJoi is this the video you were refering to? Or was there another one?
@enf0rcer said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
This decrepency canonly be explianed by the packet data. Unless you have another theory?
All the graph shows is that the game client updates the server more when you are on a boat, which makes sense to update more often because a boat is usually moving which means your player changes position more often. It's not uncommon that client update rate is less than the server update rate.
The server tick rate is pretty constant no matter where you are however the little dips could be either lost packets or the server tick rate being brought down by low performance on the server end. If it is performance problems on the server (due to simulation calculations taking too long or whatever), then that could cause hit registration problems because less game updates are being processed in that time slice.
@d3adst1ck said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
@enf0rcer said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
This decrepency canonly be explianed by the packet data. Unless you have another theory?
All the graph shows is that the game client updates the server more when you are on a boat, which makes sense to update more often because a boat is usually moving which means your player changes position more often. It's not uncommon that client update rate is less than the server update rate.
True but from what we know the island are streamed in from the server. So yeah i would expect client updates to be less.
The server tick rate is pretty constant no matter where you are however the little dips could be either lost packets or the server tick rate being brought down by low performance on the server end. If it is performance problems on the server (due to simulation calculations taking too long or whatever), then that could cause hit registration problems because less game updates are being processed in that time slice.
If the server tic rates are indeed consitant then thats simply not the issue. Then the issue must lie in the netcode or tic rate of 3o is simply to low which i really don't think is the issue i'm sure the azure servers have the abilty to go to 128 and the netcode can be made to dynamicly adjust tic rates.
If you look at the chart it is clear that it has a 32-ish hertz frequency overall, if the servers had a 64 or 128 tick-rate you would have the packages per second be significantly higher overall in my opinion especially as he doesn't seem to be in a high demanding situation. I think we can based on the information seen there we can safely assume that the tick-rate of the servers is indeed set to 32 and correlates with my personal experience. Would I state this with 100% certainty no, the information is limited after-all, but it is the only information I can go on. If you have found better sources, feel free to share...
The information is limited. If I would speculate why that is the case and why the tick rate is lower than what we see in other games is simply due to the physics of the seas themselves and all the objects on it. The water in this game is done extremely well, but it remains a very demanding aspect in software to emulate and I do think it has a huge impact on the rates we experience. I do think this is more a limitation that is coming from the games networking/server code than the servers capabilities. May I repeat, this is just me speculating, I don't have hard numbers on this.
Why we experience the discrepancy between the clients is partially due to the rate at which it is checked on the server end. Why the blue and red line are so varied, I don't dare state as I don't have enough information.
@cotu42 said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
If you look at the chart it is clear that it has a 32-ish hertz frequency overall, if the servers had a 64 or 128 tick-rate you would have the packages per second be significantly higher overall in my opinion especially as he doesn't seem to be in a high demanding situation. I think we can based on the information seen there we can safely assume that the tick-rate of the servers is indeed set to 32 and correlates with my personal experience. Would I state this with 100% certainty no, the information is limited after-all, but it is the only information I can go on. If you have found better sources, feel free to share...
The information is limited. If I would speculate why that is the case and why the tick rate is lower than what we see in other games is simply due to the physics of the seas themselves and all the objects on it. The water in this game is done extremely well, but it remains a very demanding aspect in software to emulate and I do think it has a huge impact on the rates we experience. I do think this is more a limitation that is coming from the games networking/server code than the servers capabilities. May I repeat, this is just me speculating, I don't have hard numbers on this.
Why we have large variants between the red and blue line in those findings... it is hard to say there are so many variants to account for.
I think we can all agree that there is to little info out there to ever have a firm conculsion as MS keeps all the info on there IP's close to there chest. All the info i gather was from bits and pices from the azure data anlytics manual as well as promotional material and from what the dev were allowed to say which isn't much. Everything here is pure speculation.
I think the Azure servers themselves can handle at least a 64 tick-rate, yet whether Rare can have that stable with the seas as well. I do firmly believe that a lot of the tick-rate is based on the complexity and server demands that the game has. Could it be that due to those software limitations of that they are using less powerful servers... that might be the case but Rare and Microsoft ain't going to tell us if they do.
@cotu42 said in Stun lock and hit registration with sword fighting.:
I think the Azure servers themselves can handle at least a 64 tick-rate, yet whether Rare can have that stable with the seas as well. I do firmly believe that a lot of the tick-rate is based on the complexity and server demands that the game has. Could it be that due to those software limitations of that they are using less powerful servers... that might be the case but Rare and Microsoft ain't going to tell us if they do.
Well from the little info that is out there the server have the hardware compute power and network effiecent that would allow for a 128 tic rate game and they do infact have games running on thoses servers at 128 so 64 is definitly possible but do to the unique arcthecture on this games code which incoporates some quite groundbreaking and technically innovative systems the limitations of such systems are still being explored. I only hope the dev and there coders get some acknowledgment on their achievements which rarly ever happens. Only time will tell.
What i do know for a fact this game could not be run on any other server then the Azure server simply for the fact of the server merging feature and the island stream system these two thing are only made possible due to the tech inside the azure servers and how they process data and allocate resources.
When people act like: just fix it! I am like... it if was easy they would have already, they are complex systems that they are dealing with and just changing small things can have big impacts.
Not that I don't think that it shouldn't be fixed, but I get that it isn't as simple as some make it out to be. The fact that the game has the best water I have ever seen... talk about hard things to program, I think liquids is one of the most difficult ones to get right and the seas is well 90% water.
