Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map

@dlchief58 You seem to be ignoring many of our arguments. Much of the time, it is impossible to catch someone because of how sailing works. It is no argument that a sloop against the wind is fastest, as an example. They can just go straight. When they reach the edge, they should have to try to manoeuver their way out. Developing better strategies is not a solution to deal with what is an unintended strategy and what is very close to an exploit if not blatantly one. There is one way to sneak up on wary people and that is by rowboat/swimming.

When loot sinks or despawns, there is a chance to get it. If someone wants to scuttle their ship in attempt to make loot sink, by all means, do it. At least there is a chance to save it before that happens.

If they are competant, they should deserve to not let you have their loot is completely opinionated. My argument is as well, which is that if a crew catches another crew or puts them in a checkmate, they deserve the loot. People can escape being trapped on the edge pretty easily, though it might require running the blockade and takig some damage, but not one tries.

Unrelated, as I’m sure you know, none of us are right nor wrong, it is up to the developers whether to consider this.

@prescafatty said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

@dlchief58

Your supposition that "destroy your loot" makes no sense in this game is very false as there are examples of it all over the place.

Nowhere else in the game can a player destroy treasure. That leads me to believe that red zone scuttling is an exploit, not a feature.

Technically the player does not destroy it in the Shroud either, it sinks after a set amount of time...just like it does in the rest of the game. By the same token a player can accomplish the same thing in the game by dumping treasure unseen or hiding it well on an island. They could also dump treasure in an inhospitable place such as in the center of a Kraken's ink or the center of a skeleton fleet, where it will likely sink before it can be safely recovered. The end result is the same, the pursuer is denied the treasure because he doesn't know where it is or can't get to it easily.

It most definitely is not an exploit as it is used by a Rare staff member as mentioned in a different post. So much for that theory.

@dlchief58

Technically the player does not destroy it in the Shroud either, it sinks after a set amount of time...just like it does in the rest of the game. By the same token a player can accomplish the same thing in the game by dumping treasure unseen or hiding it well on an island. They could also dump treasure in an inhospitable place such as in the center of a Kraken's ink or the center of a skeleton fleet, where it will likely sink before it can be safely recovered. The end result is the same, the pursuer is denied the treasure because he doesn't know where it is or can't get to it easily.

Except in all the examples you listed, the pursuer has the chance to recover it without dying.

@combatxkitty This has happened to me exactly 4 times in my past 2 sessions. I estimate 1 in 5 people do it.
The people who you caught may not have been as experienced as some and I have also done it many times, but I wouldn’t know. When we know our victims are good we might leave someone to swim to the outpost. We always set up the heading in the case that they run off to another outpost rather than the one(s) that we secretly ‘lock down’. People flee to the Roar to sell, but we have kept them away from any outpost most times. It always ends up in us chasing them across the map (which I have no problem with) and then either we catch them, or they sink in the Shroud.

@prescafatty said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

@dlchief58

Technically the player does not destroy it in the Shroud either, it sinks after a set amount of time...just like it does in the rest of the game. By the same token a player can accomplish the same thing in the game by dumping treasure unseen or hiding it well on an island. They could also dump treasure in an inhospitable place such as in the center of a Kraken's ink or the center of a skeleton fleet, where it will likely sink before it can be safely recovered. The end result is the same, the pursuer is denied the treasure because he doesn't know where it is or can't get to it easily.

Except in all the examples you listed, the pursuer has the chance to recover it without dying.

Only if you see where it is. And in two of the instances I mentioned you very much have a chance of dying or at least be occupied until the treasure sinks, thus creating the same situation.

You just need to develop better skills to prevent them from getting to the Shroud instead of whining about your inability here.

@dlchief58 It is easy to ignore the Kraken and get to the centre; it is even easier to tank the hits from skeleton fleets for enough time to secure the loot; it is a bit more difficult to find hidden loot, but it does shine when looking at the right angle. Hiding loot is a good strategy. The loot in the Shroud is 100% impossible to retrieve, no matter how many people are bucketing, repairing, sailing. At a certain point, when a ship gets far enough, it will instantly sink no matter how dry the hull is. It teleports all players back to their ship. I have caught a sloop in the red sea and gotten most of the loot before escaping, but that is because we managed to catch them before they made it to the end of the sea. When a ship sinks in that zone, the loot cannot be found. I have had a FoTD key, which can be seen on the map, float up on the other side of that zone which cannot be reached.

@stayoutofhouse I'm ignoring them because they are but mere excuses showing your lack of skill and tactics in this situation. No where in this game is there a guaranteed winner and loser, nor are you guaranteed loot until you turn it in. If someone is fine with their suicide run to deny you the spoils, I say more power to them in finding a way to stick it to someone.

There are more ways to sneak up on a person than that, but for someone actually paying attention you are mostly right. The fact they were paying attention and able to flee shows they are not as unskilled as you think, playing to their own strengths rather than yours.

Finally, take a look over at a similar thread where one of the Rare crew chimed in and endorses this tactic of sailing into the Red (though they do so with no treasure on board to troll the chasers). It is most certainly not an exploit and no reason for you to get loot swept up into your nets for simply running someone out of space on the map.

@stayoutofhouse said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

@dlchief58 It is easy to ignore the Kraken and get to the centre; it is even easier to tank the hits from skeleton fleets for enough time to secure the loot; it is a bit more difficult to find hidden loot, but it does shine when looking at the right angle. Hiding loot is a good strategy. The loot in the Shroud is 100% impossible to retrieve, no matter how many people are bucketing, repairing, sailing. At a certain point, when a ship gets far enough, it will instantly sink no matter how dry the hull is. It teleports all players back to their ship. I have caught a sloop in the red sea and gotten most of the loot before escaping, but that is because we managed to catch them before they made it to the end of the sea. When a ship sinks in that zone, the loot cannot be found. I have had a FoTD key, which can be seen on the map, float up on the other side of that zone which cannot be reached.

Then get it before it goes into the Shroud - problem solved. Since you cannot get it, sounds like a good strategy to me.

You running someone off the map does not entitle you to any of the loot on board, you need to secure it before then by corralling them away from the edges. If that (pushing them towards the edge to force them to surrender) was your strategy, then it is a poor one and doomed to fail anyway so is ridiculous for you to ask for the game to adapt to you instead of the other way around. If you are unable to do so before then, perhaps they are better than you thought and you are not as good as you believe (by being taken in by a "no-skill maneuver"). It is really that simple. Deal with it.

@dlchief58 What here isn’t an excuse? I’ve given valid reasons and scenarios against all of your arguments. Your reasons are no better than mine, we are arguing from two different opinions, yours are not more correct or anything of the sort.
If they had no loot aboard and they wanted to troll the persuers, there is no problem, I am fine with that. That says nothing against it being an exploit though, that you can go any direction you want and eventually reached a place where all loot is completely lost.
It also seems apparent that I have more experience with this issue, as you are not the one chasing people. From what you have said, I assume you have not encountered this issue nearly and often as I have. That is why you have no problem with it and I do.

@dlchief58

Your view is very narrow, as there are many VALID reasons why someone will sail off into the Red.

If people wish to sail into the Red for the hell of it, sure go for it. However, the minute you add loot into the equation, then I have a problem with it. The analogy of popping the ball so no one play fits perfectly here. Its weird seeing names of people who will argue all day about how exploits are bad, but have zero issues with people using the Red as a method to ensure no one can get the loot. The Red (Shroud), I prefer the Red, serves a purpose in this game, that purpose is to keep ships within bounds, not to destroy loot. There is no valid reasons to destroy loot in this game. There is no tangible benefit besides feeding some smug satisfaction to sore losers.

Imagine this scenario if you will, two kids are playing together. Trent wants to play with the toy, Kyle doesn't. Kyle decides to destroy the toy when his time was up for it. Does the Guardian go up to Trent and explain to him that Kyle has valid reasons for destroying the toy? That Trent should have tried a different approach to get the toy before before he destroyed it. I mean he could have stealthily stole it before that little terd of a child Kyle smashed it, right?

I don't see sailing into the Red as smart or strategic, its either giving up or an act of spite. Defiance? Hardly, this is a game, and while we may be video game Pirates, within the confines of a game sportsmanship will always play a role. You will never see me running into the Red just to avoid giving up something, then again, I was taught basic sportsmanship early in life. Its ok to lose, might as well lose with dignity then spoil all the fun.

Are you familiar with Rust? I've got an example of something similar there that people do and are despised because of it.

@nabberwar said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

Are you familiar with Rust? I've got an example of something similar there that people do and are despised because of it.

Despawning loot while being online raided?

@stayoutofhouse
Bingo. Its not enough that they give you the courtesy of an opportunity to actually defend yourself, but your that big of a sore loser that you will essentially self sabotage for some stupid smug satisfaction? They could have offlined you, but chose not to. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

@nabberwar By the same token there is no guarantee that the victor gets any spoils or that every encounter needs a victor. If someone can get a feeling of victory by denying it from someone else, then let them have that piece.

As I have said repeatedly, if you cannot secure the loot before they escape into the Shroud then you are not worthy of it. Same thing I tell PvEers when they get sank before turning in. If they choose to have it sink, that is their prerogative because the treasure belongs to no one UNTIL IT IS TURNED IN. You want it, get it faster and prevent them from accessing the Shroud.

There are many ways to deny loot to others, this one is just right in your face. This is a sandbox with no set way to play. Just because your set of morality thinks it is "poor sportsmanship" does not make it so, for one this is no sanctioned competition we are talking about here. Some consider it poor sportsmanship to fire on an unmanned ship, an outmanned ship or a freshly spawned one, yet I'm sure I've seen you defend such actions (not saying you participate though). So why are these "unsportsmanlike" examples not comparable to the Red Sea Suicide? You can't have it both ways.

In a game that has fragile alliances and betrayals, this "tactic" fits in rather well.

@nabberwar said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

Imagine this scenario if you will, two kids are playing together. Trent wants to play with the toy, Kyle doesn't. Kyle decides to destroy the toy when his time was up for it. Does the Guardian go up to Trent and explain to him that Kyle has valid reasons for destroying the toy? That Trent should have tried a different approach to get the toy before before he destroyed it. I mean he could have stealthily stole it before that little terd of a child Kyle smashed it, right?

In the case of the game, that toy belongs to neither Trent nor Kyle and is of no value to either until traded or sold. Whatever happens to it while in the possession of Kyle is entirely up to Kyle. Trent can cry for mommy, but it really doesn't matter as neither of them has the right to outright keep it. The toy would most likely be taken away or discarded as it didn't belong to them and was causing friction, resulting in neither of them having it in the end anyway.

These analogies of flipping the checker board, or popping the ball are complete rubbish. You are attempting to relate an open world adventure with a scenario in which two players are squaring off in a competition with clearly defined rules and a singular goal. You are told exactly what you can and cannot do and are not allowed to deviate unless you wish to be thrown from the match.

That is clearly not the case with the game which encourages many ways of play, including running into the red. It has been in the game from the start, and fits perfectly with the lore.

The loot isn't technically irretrievable as you could attempt to your way out and harpoon it.

@dlchief58

@nabberwar By the same token there is no guarantee that the victor gets any spoils or that every encounter needs a victor. If someone can get a feeling of victory by denying it from someone else, then let them have that piece.

Just because there isn't always a victor, doesn't mean we should go out of our way to ensure that there isn't one.

As I have said repeatedly, if you cannot secure the loot before they escape into the Shroud then you are not worthy of it.

B-lining to the Red is hardly this grand achievement of strategy. Its brain dead easy, and it requires little to no game knowledge. Running in this game is stupid easy, it takes low game knowledge to extend a chase long enough to reach the border. You might suggest resorting to stealth, but this game isn't a stealth game, and its stupidly easy to spot people. Ships are easy to spot, just as rowboats, and mermaids. I could lay an ambush at an outpost, but again, mermaids, rowboats, and ships are easy to spot. Ya'll keep saying we need to get better, meanwhile the people running have the easiest avenue available of denying loot. There is only so much that can be done on our end.

Just because your set of morality thinks it is "poor sportsmanship" does not make it so, for one this is no sanctioned competition we are talking about here. Some consider it poor sportsmanship to fire on an unmanned ship, an outmanned ship or a freshly spawned one, yet I'm sure I've seen you defend such actions (not saying you participate though). So why are these "unsportsmanlike" examples not comparable to the Red Sea Suicide? You can't have it both ways.

I don't consider what you described as a sportsmanship issue, because within the confines of Sea of Thieves, this is what the sport is about. I mean the code of conduct mentions how stealth, stealing, and battle is all apart of the fun. It even says be a good sport about it. Does destroying loot fit being a good sport when you are defeated. When I argue attacking ships regardless of occupancy, its mainly out of necessity and threat management. Removing threats is in the nature of the sport that is Sea of Thieves. That is, in my opinion, being sporting in this game. I get a tangible game benefit from removing a threat in this game, right? Now my loot is more secure and my overall risk in this game is lowered. What benefit does one get for destroying loot? None, that is the difference here. I can still benefit from sinking boats both small and large, but nothing is gained if I destroy loot.

@dlchief58

You just need to develop better skills to prevent them from getting to the Shroud instead of whining about your inability here.

I've never been chased into the Shroud, nor have I chased anyone else into the Shroud. My opinion is based on the merit of the arguments on this thread.

@dlchief58 What is this about there being no defined victors or victims? There are. If one ship sinks to another, whether it be by cannon or by Shroud, the one that does not sink is the victor. That doesn’t mean they will stay the victor though, as the losing ship can always come back and try again. In fights, there are either victors, or it is a draw. That applies to everything, the game, other games, war. The winner of a fight in SoT should always have a chance of getting the spoils. I am not saying it is guaranteed, but sinking in the Shroud should not be a way to deny loot. As I said before, hiding it works, other ways work, it should never be completely lost with no chance of getting it though.

@prescafatty said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

@dlchief58

Your supposition that "destroy your loot" makes no sense in this game is very false as there are examples of it all over the place.

Nowhere else in the game can a player destroy treasure. That leads me to believe that red zone scuttling is an exploit, not a feature.

Actually, you can easily destroy treasure anywhere, just stash it in a bush and wait for a server merge and Ka-Poofie! it's gone! Or just drop it in the water, and it will sink after about 5 minutes.

@redwoodtheelf said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

Actually, you can easily destroy treasure anywhere, just stash it in a bush and wait for a server merge and Ka-Poofie! it's gone! Or just drop it in the water, and it will sink after about 5 minutes.

Ok fair enough. Should read: "Nowhere else in the game can a player destroy treasure without other players having the chance to first recover it."

@redwoodtheelf As I have stated before, there is a chance that it can be retrieved. If you want to sink loot in the ocean without anyone around, I don’t care. It’s not as if I would have known you had it in the first place. Its when you’re in a fight where it becomes a problem.

@stayoutofhouse said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

@redwoodtheelf As I have stated before, there is a chance that it can be retrieved. If you want to sink loot in the ocean without anyone around, I don’t care. It’s not as if I would have known you had it in the first place. Its when you’re in a fight where it becomes a problem.

Ah, but if you're chasing me and I start tossing gems and chests overboard as I turn around rocks and stuff, are you going to stop to pick them up, or have someone constantly on the harpoon to try to snag it? if you stop for every empty collector's chest I toss overboard, I'm going to get away.

@stayoutofhouse said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

@combatxkitty This has happened to me exactly 4 times in my past 2 sessions. I estimate 1 in 5 people do it.
The people who you caught may not have been as experienced as some and I have also done it many times, but I wouldn’t know. When we know our victims are good we might leave someone to swim to the outpost. We always set up the heading in the case that they run off to another outpost rather than the one(s) that we secretly ‘lock down’. People flee to the Roar to sell, but we have kept them away from any outpost most times. It always ends up in us chasing them across the map (which I have no problem with) and then either we catch them, or they sink in the Shroud.

Well they had the rank 50 order of souls ship set so they were not terribly inexperienced , some people are just not cautious no matter how much experience they have. I have acted like a paranoid old sailor since day one lol.

Anyways that is an unfourtanate number of times its happened. I dont really have an answer, I understand peoples frustrations but if the ship isnt sunk by you its not sunk by you. What if Rare did something like make a dome around the sea so you do not sink but hit an invisible wall? The water can still be red so you have warning but ship wont sink? That may be a horrible idea, I dont know.

I also have to wonder, cause I never tried due to really not caring when people run treasure off, but the ship tends to die off pretty quickly after the boundary that players get held at, so wouldn't loot be in harpoon range potentially. If so, you just gotta work it.

Regardless, much like the sword dash exploit that became a feature in the long haul, I'm fine with this being a thing. Rarely does the Red Sea factor into me sinking someone or trying to.

@redwoodtheelf

Ah, but if you're chasing me and I start tossing gems and chests overboard as I turn around rocks and stuff, are you going to stop to pick them up, or have someone constantly on the harpoon to try to snag it? if you stop for every empty collector's chest I toss overboard, I'm going to get away.

Exactly! This is a totally rad strategy and creates for really interesting play decisions in a way that a Shroud self-destruct does not.

@comrade-molly said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

@archangel-timmy said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

If the loot drifts from Red to Blue, sailing into the Red would be akin to scuttling, giving up, rolling over.

Yup, because that's what it is.

That's what it would be, not what it is nor should become.

Just leave the server and go find a new one to PVE in if you're not going to turn in your loot or fight.

Could take your own advice. You failed to secure the loot, buck up and find someone else to chase and throw insults at.

@comrade-molly said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

The kind of people who do this are just delusional mid-tier players who can't stand the thought of there being anyone significantly better than them, so they call anyone they know they can't beat a toxic sweatlord and run into the red.

Oh noes, you failed to get the loot, better head to the forum and throw insults!

If you do this, you're throwing a cowardly tantrum akin to flipping over the chess board rather than accepting a lost game. You still lost, you just wanted to make sure nobody can say that they won, because you're salty that you didn't.

Not the same as sailing into the red at all. More in line with not getting your way and then coming here to throw insults and complain. Nothing gained and nothing lost.

@comrade-molly said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

@archangel-timmy said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

@comrade-molly said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

@archangel-timmy said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

If the loot drifts from Red to Blue, sailing into the Red would be akin to scuttling, giving up, rolling over.

Yup, because that's what it is.

That's what it would be, not what it is nor should become.

Just leave the server and go find a new one to PVE in if you're not going to turn in your loot or fight.

Could take your own advice. You failed to secure the loot, buck up and find someone else to chase and throw insults at.

---

@comrade-molly said in Simple Reaper's Bones/PvP changes - loot in red water returns to the map:

The kind of people who do this are just delusional mid-tier players who can't stand the thought of there being anyone significantly better than them, so they call anyone they know they can't beat a toxic sweatlord and run into the red.

Oh noes, you failed to get the loot, better head to the forum and throw insults!

If you do this, you're throwing a cowardly tantrum akin to flipping over the chess board rather than accepting a lost game. You still lost, you just wanted to make sure nobody can say that they won, because you're salty that you didn't.

Not the same as sailing into the red at all. More in line with not getting your way and then coming here to throw insults and complain. Nothing gained and nothing lost.

Oh hey look it's one of those people I was talking about!

If you weren't an established liar, perhaps your statement would be believable.

Glad you remember me though, or did you have to find me on your little list?