Sword Blocking Suggestion (and Damage)

  • Crafek
    Master
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    • When against other Pirates: Every strike that you block is now treated like the third block. Which means, when you block any sword strike attack (Not sword lunge) the attacking player will bounce off immediately.

    Im a huge advocate for good sword-play in this game, and ever since they removed the slowdown when swinging, sword fights have become messy and spammy. Blocking has been so bad ever since then, there was very little change in strategy against someone blocking well because it was suddenly so very hard to block and the meta has changed drastically. To make sword play actually have strategy again, just make blocking powerful to force players to sword lunge against other sword users or switch to guns.

    In addition to making blocks powerful, I would also add:

    • Sword swings now do more damage on the last swing. Each swing did 20 damage. Now, the third swing should do 35 (or 40) damage. Also; a minor new sound effect to make this final strike more obvious to the receiver.

    To accommodate a reward for fulfilling all 3 swings, and making swords deadlier against those without sword, and deadlier as a surprise than possibly the blunder. Which means, you now have a choice to make. Sword lunge first, or swing at them normally.

    Basically, make sword simpler by making blocking more practical and end the chain at the first sign of blocking. (I will miss blocking a flurry of attacks, because the block animation is so cool, but I havent really gotten a satisfying block ever since they removed the slowdown.)

    And to somewhat combat the meta of doublegunning and bunnyhopping pirates, have the last swing be rewarding before bouncing them off away to freedom with a whopping 40 damage final swing, combining to 80 damage if all 3 attacks land. (This also means you cannot be 20% hungry against someone who is about to make those 3 swings)

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  • Kaiyoshi4279
    Rogue
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    Ahoy!

    As an avid cutlass/pistol, cutlass/blunderbuss wielder, I somewhat do agree with what you've said, but I don't think that it's the Cutlass that needs buffing, but the double-gunning that needs nerfing. The exploit of quick-switching still exists and that's the main reason double-gunning is so effective.

    That said, there are ways that you punish cutlass spammers with blocks. If you block a swing, then bunny-hop back while blocking, you can force them to miss their next swing and go into recovery, leaving you open to slash at them with impunity. This is largely due to the recent change in which stuns no longer occur on the defending, blocking player during Cutlass hits. This, of course, is countered by them NOT spamming and instead pulling out a firearm to hit you with, but that's the counter-counterplay.

    As a proposed alternative, perhaps make Cutlass dashing feintable to some extent? Say, if you don't hold the attack button for 1.5s out of the 2s necessary, it plays an animation and sound effect like a lunge but does not actually follow through. This could open additional mindgames and increase viability of the Cutlass without upping the damage output and potentially going from "underpowered" to "must-use meta".

  • UltmateRagnarok
    Master

    @crafek

    I like the 40 damage for finishing a chain. It both gives the cutlass a decently balanced damage buff and punishes bad play on both sides (don't let anyone get a chain on you, and don't skip chains with exploits for infinite ones or simply neglecting it). Your block idea reminds me of the ever-present 'parry' suggestion, but slightly changed, though that means it is slightly less of a skillful move it is also less susceptible to small amounts of lag. I don't think the increased damage will make it more powerful than a surprise blunder, especially a surprise blunder during a sword attack, which still needs to be solved - without its stun (which needed a slight increase to prevent a bug with firing out of it, instead), you can simply fire a gun out of it and being hit is far less punishing for the defender and far less rewarding for the attacker, as the existing chain system prevents it from locking them to death. 20 health is coincidentally equal to a banana, so, a banana a... fight?, keeps the Ferryman at bay.

  • Crafek
    Master
    Insider

    @kafeleskleros I see what you mean, and I do know of the sword block+hop feature against someone swinging at you, but most of the time spent fighting with a sword will be in close quarters where your hop will be blocked by even a tiny amount of geometry or uneven ground, resulting in still having to fully make all 3 blocks while they are fully mobile. Its not fully making itself obvious as to what actually happened, and many times it still resulted in trades because I was JUST not far enough.

    My suggestion tries to make the dynamic between the blockee and attacker more compact, tactile and hopefully, actually, fun in a way that it did played out previously (Before they removed being slowed down on swinging).

    More backs and forths, decision making, and still have it be obvious to all players.

    For double gunning, I do realize that it is powerful, but ive been using double guns normally without exploit and that still feels pretty powerful. My suggestion simply adds to punishing those who cannot block with the last swing dishing out extra damage. This does not combat double gunning directly, but it rewards using the sword when you do succeed it.

    Now, in combination with both changes, I think and Feel like that would make for a more clear dynamic with the sword onto itself and some against double guns. Because right now, I am un-afraid of sword users. With a sword however, I hate having to be approached by another sword. Its just not fun.

    Feinting however, would be good. Especially if the dynamic of sword is Solid enough. "For Honor" does this by having to press B on the controller.
    That could be the button you are looking for.

    So during the first half of your sword lunge, you can press B (Or X on keyboard) to cancel it.

    As simple as that. Although, I am not sure if SoT needs it. Like I said, the dynamic of the sword needs to become Solid for something like feinting to be a thing.

  • Kaiyoshi4279
    Rogue
    Insider

    @crafek said in Sword Blocking Suggestion (and Damage):

    So during the first half of your sword lunge, you can press B (Or X on keyboard) to cancel it.

    I would keep it bound to the Charge Weapon input, since X is stash your equipped item as is, but that's assuming such a thing was implemented. This might mean additional muscle memory, but hey, double-gunners already do that if they aren't macroing.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    I consider myself an authority when it comes to the sword, due to my long-standing experience as a pirate since the closed alpha - and sword-fighting, as far as I am concerned, is perfectly fine. For example, I won a 3v1 while boarding a brigantine the other day using only the sword.

    I find that, most pirates, even long-time PLs, are woefully ignorant of what you can do with a cutlass.

    ...and that 3v1 fight? I won it without relying on the charge or by bunnyhopping. Ask me how!

    Go ahead, I can wait. 😏

    As for bouncing off of every block and that damage buff? That would slow down close-range combat, shorten fights considerably, and would strengthen the use of firearms, since they could just shoot you after you bounce.

  • Crafek
    Master
    Insider

    @galactic-geek This sounds like a joke, but il play.

    How did you do it... I mean, were they any good? What did they use? I dont know what youl answer and im just expecting disappointment. I mean, even I have stories like that with the cutlass but its not ever that worthy.

    As for bouncing off of every block and that damage buff? That would slow down close-range combat, shorten fights considerably, and would strengthen the use of firearms, since they could just shoot you after you bounce.

    Yes! Nice input. It would slow down fights among 2 sword users (In some ways thats the point), but it would not shorten them. It would make them longer, You still have to reload a gun, and there is still an unsheathe animation to the sword. There are ways to get a normal slice in, as well as playing around the lunge. The person who bounced can still dodge or switch as well, nothing too different about bouncing from how its like now.

    And this dynamic of having to decide what to do and switch to is a good dynamic. Blocking someone 3 times running at full walk speed is just messy and kind of aimless. Previously (when you were slowed down), you and your opponent had a moment. Not really a romantic one though.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @crafek said in Sword Blocking Suggestion (and Damage):

    @galactic-geek This sounds like a joke, but il play.

    How did you do it... I mean, were they any good? What did they use? I dont know what youl answer and im just expecting disappointment. I mean, even I have stories like that with the cutlass but its not ever that worthy.

    As for bouncing off of every block and that damage buff? That would slow down close-range combat, shorten fights considerably, and would strengthen the use of firearms, since they could just shoot you after you bounce.

    Yes! Nice input. It would slow down fights among 2 sword users (In some ways thats the point), but it would not shorten them. It would make them longer, You still have to reload a gun, and there is still an unsheathe animation to the sword. There are ways to get a normal slice in, as well as playing around the lunge. The person who bounced can still dodge or switch as well, nothing too different about bouncing from how its like now.

    Fights would be shortened because of the damage buff - with a potential 80 damage in 3 swings, that means 4 swings kills a pirate, not the 5 we have now. You don't have to reload a gun if it's already preloaded, nor do you have to unsheathe a sword if it's already unsheathed. A pirate who bounces CANNOT dodge or switch during the bounce - they are completely vulnerable during that animation sequence, however brief it is.

    As for my 3v1 experience, for context, they were all using blunderbuss or sword. I was simply able to use a sword dodge and running sword slash to sow confusion as they all tried to attack me at once up on their deck.

    Many pirates know about the sword dodge (block+move+jump), and its ability to get in close, retreat, or sidestep - but most fail to realize 2 things in regards to this mechanic:

    1. Most pirates hold their block too long, which slows their own movement upon landing, which in turn leaves them vulnerable and mistakenly believe that this is a cool-down period. Simply release the block mid-hop, and you can instantly do anything upon landing, including attacking, jumping, etc.
    2. Normally, you can't move through a space occupied by an enemy pirate - they're like a solid object or wall. However, the sword dodge allows you to pass through an opponent's space as if they were a member of your own crew. This opens up a bevy of flanking and backstabbing opportunities. This aspect, in particular, is where most are ignorant.

    Even fewer pirates know how to do a proper running sword slash, much less even know of its existence, despite the fact that it has been in the game as a mechanic since day 1. It's actually remarkably simple too. You do a sword dodge, but instead of hitting your jump button, you tap attack instead (so, block+move+tap attack). Emphasis on tapping, because holding it and getting a charge instead is not what you want. It's a very subtle animation that feels almost like ice-skating when performed correctly (most easily seen when watching a friend do it). It's similar to a regular attack in nearly every respect (it does the same damage and can be used in a combo for example) with a few key exceptions:

    1. It gives you a subtle, momentary speed boost to your movement on the initial attack.
    2. It slightly extends your movement when compared to a normal running attack.
    3. It increases the length of your sword slash, allowing for you to potentially hit multiple targets at once or bypass their block at certain angles, since it's omni-directional like the sword dodge (but is offensive in nature, rather than defensive).

    Using both of these techniques, I was able to effortlessly move between, around, and through my 3 opponents, using each 1 as a defacto shield from 1 another, able to hit them in the back consistently while they struggled to turn around, block, and find me. All 3 died within 10 seconds. As the last 1 perished, I received a "Well played!" quick-chat message. All 3 were PLs as was indicated by their clothing.

    Try it! 😁

  • UltmateRagnarok
    Master

    @galactic-geek

    Always good to see players bested and rightfully congratulating their opponents. That's part of the Ferry's purpose, even. As for shortening fights, if you are up against an opponent who is doing well enough with blocking to prevent chains, but not enough so to prevent slashes, they still take 5 hits to kill and arguably longer overall without the chain.

  • Crafek
    Master
    Insider

    @galactic-geek

    Fights would be shortened because of the damage buff - with a potential 80 damage in 3 swings, that means 4 swings kills a pirate, not the 5 we have now.

    Know that, not ever will a fight be "Shorter" because of that damage number on a less likely swing, especially if you consider the block changes. Again, its a potential 80dmg. Against someone without a sword, that could be considered justified. I am not placing these changes in a vacum, in a single scenario where nothing but 2 pirates fight eachother. I am considering what and where and what is their condition. If they forgot to reload or not. Also, I have never been shot after bouncing off of someone who blocked me fully, im at a slight disadvantage, yes. But circumstances change, such as in CQC environments.

    Those are some great tips! well, I know about all of them, but I dont think ive ever considered using running slash and just leaving it to 1 swing. Maybe that was my problem, because 90% of the time, the opponent wildly clicks to swing and we somehow trade on my second swing. That is where my frustration happens, no matter how solid I try to be, there is this minor hichup that still rewards the opponent for mindlessness.

    Im gonna try mastering running slash, but I still think the dynamic should be more obvious or tactile.

    But, 3 people in 10 seconds with running slash? You must have been circling someone who tried to block you (full 3 swing combo) at some point.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @crafek The running sword slash used to be a lot better and was obvious. It was, however, somewhat nerfed due to the movement speed boost to cutlass all around, but it's still useful.

    You used to be able to quickdraw a firearm by holding block with the sword and simply switching weapons - it would instantly aim down sight (ADS) allowing you to fire. This was particularly useful for punishing someone off of a bounce, and rewarded good defense by punishing a bad offense. Sadly, it was nerfed into oblivion when the animation delay changes were instituted to prevent the double gun exploit. Unlike the exploit, however, it was actually balanced, because it required the sword to do, and you only got 1 shot, which wasn't even a guaranteed kill for exactly that reason. I would love for this mechanic to make a return, because then you could more easily punish those bounces like I used to do.

    These 2 mechanics are perfect examples of how Rare ruined certain positive aspects of personal combat to fix 1 major problem by doing too much.

  • Crafek
    Master
    Insider

    So after a few days of practicing more sword and getting the running sword slash down, all I can say is... Its still so horribly messy.

    Im a controller and M&K player, and honestly, I feel as if the sword is like the HARDEST weapon to use with the controller. Even at 8 sensitivity, the visual confusion that is happening on screen is so unbelievably messy. Its the aiming thats the problem here, but trigger discipline is higher.

    Even with M&K, its much easier to aim but still so gosh darn messy. Its unbelievably messy. And even with getting down Running slash at people, its still more rewarding to be more strategic and precise with double gunning, and bunny hop away. Its literally cleaner and more comprehensive and less confusing to use guns. And makes for the more favourable playstyle perhaps because of those reasons.

    I tried @Galactic-Geek I did get more used to the sword, got out of dangerous situations versus other sword users aswell, hacked down a bunch of people in arena continuously, almost with proper intent, but the amount of times that I killed pirates off-screen with the SWORD is so weird and was not that fun.

    I still standby that the Third hit doing 40 damage, and a single block bouncing other sword users away to make this sword actually have some proper strategy and threat to it.

  • Crazed Corsair
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    Honestly I feel they should just roll back all the post-launch changes to sword combat, except the combo-bug, and just call it a day. Sword combat was at its best before they started trying to tweak it.
    It couldn't be spammed mindlessly and required an element of skill to master, and blocking was actually useful...nay... required.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @crafek Funny you choose now to post, because just this morning, as I was playing SoT, I was specifically thinking about your 40% damage boost with the sword. I was attacking a sapphire mermaid statue when I thought about it - and I realized that the way it's designed is specifically for balance. Now you might think, "well duh!" Think about it though - you have 2 attacks; a slash that does 20% damage and that can be comboed, or you can risk a delay and possible cooldown on a miss for a whopping 50% damage. However, it's the combo of the slash that sets it apart and creates both versatility and the balance; if you hit with all 3 attacks, that's a potential 60% damage! More than the charge, and at no penalty other than potentially getting blocked.

    So, it gives you these scenarios where you can get 20, 40, or 60 damage depending on how many of your attacks are missed or blocked, or you can counter the block but leave yourself momentarily vulnerable for 50. Regardless of the method you choose, there's ALWAYS a risk. Go for less damage, and your opponent's still alive. Go for more and you either do less damage than you intended or are left vulnerable.

    The more I dive into the details of design in this game the more I realize just how ingenious the developers over at Rare really are - they legitimately put a lot of thought into this. Because of this, I don't think we should be so quick to discount their ability (and no, I'm not accusing you of doing that 😅).

    If we used your method of 80% damage combo, there'd be no real reason to do the sword charge because the benefits (30% more damage) would far outweigh the cons.

  • Crafek
    Master
    Insider

    @galactic-geek Good insight, but the difference here is to cooperate the damage change with the block change and give a lasting deterrent for the sword against those who cannot block, and make a dynamic with the sword that has people actually use it properly.

    The 40 damage last swing will/could shift peoples focus on blocking. But with that, the block has been made strong. As soon as both people strikes keep getting blocked, you are going to want to do sword charge or switch weapons. This is why you want to sword charge, to attack through the block. This is actually how it played out back in launch sword settings, Block all swings, then consider a strategy. Swing back, charge or switch guns, or something else entirely.

    The 40 damage also combats people who keep chuggin food up their noses while being struck. That still will happen, but the last swing damage will punish those who cannot block, or arent blocking. Coconuts heal about, what was it... 30-35? A banana heals 20. So as long as a double gunner jams up food up his behind, he will negate most damage. But as soon as 80 damage is applying on him, the food wont actually help him and someone chasing him will get him eventually.

    So the dynamic that I hope these changes would do is:

    • Get people to block, because its actually useful now. It completely negates the swords simple strikes and puts the pirates at a somewhat neutral situation immediately.
    • Encourage strategy because of the blocking potential that also kills spamming the sword.
    • Every one to feel threatened by the faster time to kill with the sword. If were not going to see stronger stuns against bunny-hoppers, we might as well apply damage that justifies hitting with at least the third swing.
    • The damage actually competes with the guns. The sword is mostly applicable at certain situations (Regarding PVP), while the guns show to be applicable in most places. If the sword can get its damage where it is most appropriate, it would challenge the loadouts. Create a proper Conflict of Choice.

    I would suggest for something more complex, like forcing someone that is swinging their sword to immediately be slowed down when hitting someone blocked, or a greater stun that catches mid-air opponents as well. But im mostly toying with what I think rare can easily change. And I really am thinking about the consequences, I am particularly hopeful but also afraid about the Block suggestion.

    Sure the block changes may actually force people to strategise but it also could make things boring. I dont think it would but this is something I want to see, if were going to keep the full-speed walking while swinging, might as well up the speed of killing or defending and make swords fast and great at CQC, but most importantly, fun.

    Sorry if Im repeating myself.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @crafek I'm going to have to reread your post a few more times to fully comprehend it, simply because I'm too tired and can't really think straight right now, but 1 thing I will touch on is that as it is now, the mobility options that the sword has now easily defeats block (as seen above in my previous posts) even after the changes to stun and the running sword slash - this is because you're automatically slowed when blocking. So, SoT still favors offense over defense, but it's still far better than it used to be. In this instance, the attacker has to move more, having to get around the block, whereas the defender merely has to turn in place to keep his assailant in front of him. Look sensitivity, naturally, helps even out the balance a bit more - mine is set to the highest settings (I trained myself by gradually increasing the setting each week).

  • PabIo Escobar
    Marauder
    Insider

    I’ve been trying to keep up with this post. It’s very interesting.
    I’m old... and find it difficult to keep up with “ the meta “
    Can you clarify for me one thing. Today, playing sea of thieves, using the cutlass, should I be blocking hits or slashing wildly.

  • Crafek
    Master
    Insider

    @pabio-escobar

    In short: Swing wildly, but be mindful about mixing things up to get some upper hand.

    The meta (Or, the strategy that a majority of players use), is to use double guns, and maybe jump around like a bunny.

    For swords, blocking other swords successfully is incredibly difficult. People who run at you swinging wildly will be circling you, and you will have to keep up with your aim and block wherever they are at around you.

    So dont block. But...
    The most recent patch made it so that you can block+jump (sword hop i call it) while you are blocking strikes. You can use THAT to get out of these sword spammers. The sword hop also lets you phase through enemy pirates, this causes lots of confusion.

    You can block a strike, and as soon as you block it, hop into him and behind him. Or away from him. You may still trade though...

    Regardless of all that, you will find more success swinging wildly than being methodical about it, but learn that it could lead to random deaths. Block+jumping will maneuver you around enough to get out of dodge sometimes so be mindful of how to apply it, but even that wont fully save you or land a kill.

  • Crafek
    Master
    Insider

    @galactic-geek

    In this instance, the attacker has to move more, having to get around the block, whereas the defender merely has to turn in place to keep his assailant in front of him.

    Thats... the problem. You are saying as if its easy to block someone circling you, when in reality the opposite is true. Its much easier jumping and circling someone while slashing at them than to block him, there was a reason the previous(Launch release) sword had a slowdown back then, it was to make it simple to block the attacks.

    And, the dynamic just looks messy because of all the circling around. You have a saving grace now with block+jumping while blocking attacks, but that still can trade with you and still isnt the most clear of a mechanic. Especially since you can fly through your opponent with it, creating for more of a messy feedback.

    Im just advocating for simplicity versus the high movement speed, and a deterrent.

  • Galactic Geek
    Seafarer
    Founder

    @crafek Not to worry - I was never a fan of the faster movement speed while using the cutlass either. Supposedly, it was adjusted so gun-users couldn't run away so easily, but I never recall having that problem.

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