@sweltering-nick
"You seem to be confusing realism for immersion... A game doesn't have to be realistic to be immersive... A cartoon fantasy game is the last game on this planet, that needs realism to enhance immersion. :P"
are you suggesting that realism doesnt provide emersion?? because it does indeed. and i believe i did mention how fortnite provides players with many things to interact with in order to emerse players, like campfires, trollies, and the ability to hide in bins/ hay bails. anyways your whole point is kinda meaningless because sure the game is cartoony but the game is still realistic, sure the art style isnt realistic, but does that mean everything has to be cartoony. should we make it so anvils randomyl drop on peeps heads, should we give people a pencil that allows them to draw portals. sea of thieves follows realistic things to improve emersion, for example the sail mechanics, sails in wind = faster.
"I'm all for more immersion, but i'm not necessarily for realism."
what wouldnt you like about realism? or the ability to gather logs to make a quick campfire in order to cook food.
"it would be redundant, pointless, a waste of everyones time, and would never be used."
i would like to point you to the example of crafting we already have, it is used and people like it. now i understand what you are saying about it being a waste of the developer time, they really do have better, more important things to do, but does that mean if the ability to pick up logs to place on a fire were magically added, the game would be worse for it, nah. it truely would add a new aspect of immersion, sure there are campfires already on islands, but i was just using campfires as an example of how crafting could positively effect the game. although being able to make one at a sea post would be great, that way you can just chill there and fish without your boat.
"The only way to add a crafting system in a way that would improve the game, is to add one that has meaning... That means Atlas crafting, more or less."
false, i think i just explained how crafting doesnt have to mean anything for it to be positive. i will point you at fortnite again, does pushing a trolly have meaning. il tell you the anser, no it doesnt, do people push trollies still. yes, why cause its cool that you can. and i think you just exemplified how you are in a biased thinking method in wich you believe crafting can only mean atlas, just think abit more creatively about how crafting could do something cool. like i said with that merchant aliance idea, where you collect cloth and silk and you get a cool shirt. that feels pretty SOT to me.
il give another example, what if we could pick up rocks and move them. we could place them in the sand and draw messages for other adventurers, i think that would be pretty cool
"Then they would need to make trees an interactable object, with a respawn time... What this would do, fyi, is just remove all trees from every island in the game, making all the islands look weird. xD"
true
"Because everyone on the server would chop down every tree they see to get as many planks as possible, or to see how naked they can make the game look."
i mean players wouldnt chop every tree down just for planks. i mean do you stop at every island to loot barrels? i doubt it cause it would be a huge waste of time.
would players try to get rid of every tree. maybe, but they could just make them regrow when they are out of render. but anyways idk if i like the whole cutting down trees idea. there are enough ways to find planks.
"My point is, this game isn't make for these things, so adding such things isn't a good idea. :P" in what ways is the game not made for these things? in what ways is anything new added to the game any different.
"It's interesting how you immediately contradict yourself in the same sentence. First you claim you don't have to do things like in Atlas, and then immediately describe the exact things you do in Atlas. xD"
it isnt like atlas though. you spend hours in atlas collecting wood, so that you can build millions of things. in SOT all you would be able to build is a campfire, just like i said, you could only do basically meaningless things with it. i seen the similarity, but i thought hmm would this make sea of thieves like atlas, and i concluded that it wouldnt.
"Doing it in a survival game where built objects have a finite lifespan and must, inevitably, be replaced or rebuilt? Not to much... There's a reason why games like that aren't popular, because very few people actually like engaging in tedious and time-consuming boring stuff like that." are you saying rust and ark survival evolved arent popular? i thought and felt like they are.
last i checked ark had like 50000 concurrent players. the servers never seem dead and their servers hold a heck of alot more players than SOT.
(lol you just edited something while im typing this)
you think 43000 concurrent players is dead??? also i might mention its pc only. (only recently being added onto xbox soon).
im sure SOT has less players and its cross platform. but i mean rust servers can hold up to 100 players each, and they never feel empty. all SOT has to do is hold 6 ships and it always feels empty. just saying maybe your definition of dead is off.
i also believe your deduction/ mathematics is irrelivent. star wars battle front was very popular, how many players are playing it rn. doubt its more than 100.
also i would love to see SOT statistics, i think all we have been told is that 8 million people own the game.
again i will say your maths is irrelivent. i love rust and i havent played it in years. your maths means nothing. GTA 5 only has 83000 players playing rn on pc and it sold like 110 million copies. now 110 million divided into the 5 consoles it was sold on = 22million, now lets be generous and divide that by 3 and we have 7.3 million estimated sales on pc and 83 thousand conccurent players, that equates to 0.0113% of the playerbase. so if my math is correct (idk if it is, havent done math in years) then you are telling me gta is increadibly unpopular and that rust is more popular than gta at times.
i hope this helped show you why your math is irrelevant, because i mean i hope you understand that gta is increadibly popular. like its still winning records for its popularity.
"Sounds like a voyage for the merchant alliance to me. xD"
true and thats what crafting can be for SOT, sounds like you like it to mee xD
much like how cooking is a voyage for the hungering deep.
"I don't have anything against Atlas, i just think Sea of Thieves doesn't need to be like it"
i agree, my whole point is that SOT doesnt have to be like atlas. my whole point is that you can implement a crafting system and still be unique, much like how SOT devs already did. with fishing and cooking. the devs are smarter then you seem to make them out to be, they are pretty creative folk.
"You know in Atlas, the world is large enough to support 40 000 players at once, right?"
if you played atlas you would know that this is a lie. literaly it is a lie. and then even figuratively the amount that atlas does support it really cant. like its biggest issue with the game is that the map itself cannot support that many players. literally only 20% or less were actually supported.
ok with the rest of your argument with this point, that having a guild of 100 people is what makes you get stuff done, i will point to rust. i used to play rust solo, theres a thing called zergs btw (basically massive clans, cause technically if the server can hold 100 people you can have a clan of 100 people) anyways in rust i would play solo, i would get my stuff stolen all the time. did that stop me from getting top tier gear, did that stop me from raiding people. nope, did i have to work harder, maybe, since i guess in a zerg you could have some people farm and others not, where as solo i do it all. but anyways point is, you can have your stuff stolen and still get stuff done, just as i said in my previous post
furthermore, like you said, everyone is limmited to 3 crew mates, for this reason everything should be fair, and their is literally no reason why you wouldnt be able to get stuff done.
and holy moley i just realised something. the point im about to make is basically a nuke on this discussion my brother.
everytime you logg off you lose everything, therefore for this reason SOT likely cannot become the Survival type game you are affraid of. just think about it. unless of coarse you think adding the ability to craft a camp fire will lead to them completely re designing the servers and stuff. but yea anyways, not that this kinda matters cause like you i believe the kind of survival game you are affraid SOT will become is a bad idea, as in craftable weapons, like i said i only think crafting should be available for meaningless things. although this discussion has more become about wheter sea of thieves would ever become that or watever, idk this discussion is now just us making points and countering them lol, this is alot of fun and is very interesting, thanks for your time Btw. anyways back to the interesting discussion
"You are, you're just not aware of it. : /"
i really am not asking for atlas, like i mentions earlier. nothing that gives people an advantage. furthermore my point about the servers, and il bring up that merchant crafting mission that you yourself didnt see as an atlas like thing.
"Crafting in games is a menu where you combine various items create a new item... This is what crafting is, in games... UNIVERSALLY."
honestly im not sure what you mean by this point? like yea crafting can be that. it doesnt have to be, im trying to think about what game it is, but it has a really cool crafting system where their is no menue you are basically on your own but you can make things and craft things ( oh wait i might be thinking about dayz) dayz has no menue.
and il hit you with a google definition
crafting in games: A crafting system is the collection of game mechanics which enable a player to create virtual objects within a game, with examples ranging from making a pickaxe or placing blocks in Minecraft , to combining ingredients to create items in World of Warcraft , or designing a city in SimCity .
now im not sure how simcity is the same as atlas but according to the point i think you are making wich is, no matter what if it has crafting, its the same as atlas, i guess you are technically saying simcity and atlas are the same. wich i mean if you believe that i mean i dont see it, but if you believe it sure i mean go ahead man
"In a crew of limited players where everyone has a crucial job to maintain, if one of my crew were busy gathering wood and making bonfires, instead of just using the ones already on the island or on our ship and doing their job as a crewmate, it would be a tremendous waste the crews time trying to complete voyages, or defending our ship from attackers or... well... anything really... Now that they are essentially lacking a crewmate."
how long do you think it would take to find a few sticks my guy???? lol also whats the difference between that crewmate going and finding a place to cook, or going and actually fishing. you now make me wonder, do you believe fishing should not be in the game? im genuinely curious.
"(pointless bonfires)"
they are for aesthetic and emersion. what is someone wants to role play a cast away, they could craft a bonfire to gather the attention of other sailers, idk you cant disagree that would be cool. furthermore they wouldnt be pointless cause your pirate friend could cook you all a great big meal on it.
"In Atlas, however, you ARE an individual, and anyone within the guild can replace you if you aren't available when you need to be... You have less responsibilities due to the sheer number of players per server"
not sure why this is relevant, but i believe you to be wrong. first of all, not every crew is big. for example my crew when playing was a wee 2 man crew. secondly each charecter does have an important role and if someone is lacking, the whole crew lacks. say you send one man on a hunt for iron for tools, say that man never comes back, hes only one man, but now the whole crew has no iron, so now they gotta send another man out to find iron and now they are delayed. in this big world there is pvp, its basically a race against time, who can get top tier loot first. if your crew keeps messing up because of these kinda things, a different crew that isnt messing up because of these things would probs absolutely destroy this crew.
"Starting to notice a pattern in your suggestions yet? That you might actually be asking for Atlas, but not be aware that you are? ._." honestly no i genuinely do not, i kinda feel dumb not gonna lie, please tell me what the pattern is. im being serious i really do feel kinda dumb, i do not know what the pattern is.
"You were suggesting using 2 components to fix ships, instead of just 1... A plank, and a Hammer."
???? what was the second component? are you talking about the hammer?? what do you think we do rn in SOT, do you think we just place a plank there and hope it stays even though water is gushing through. what do you think that hammering noise is?? i dont remember mentioning a second component unless you really are talking about the hammer, in wich case. idk what you think i mean, like do you think i mean we should put a plank there pull a nail out of out pocket, grab a hammer, aim the hammer at the nail in a wierd little mini game and start going in on that nail. if so no that was not what i was suggesting.
"The SoT repair method is already good enough, we don't need to complicate it any further... That is all i'm saying."
?? yea i agree mate lol
"Survival games are not defined by their cooking, they are defined by things like hunger meter, thirst meter, bla de bla bla." well in that case we are good for life and SOT will never be a survival game. all they gotta do is keep cooking the same.
"If cooking is a survival element, then minigames based only on cooking would be survival games by default. Which makes no sense. :P"
true i have no idea what you mean lol : )
"Yeah, like World of Warcraft, and Shadow of the Tomb Raider... of which i have already mentioned and described how their crafting differs from games like Atlas, because they are not survival games."
good then we agree that SOT can have crafting and does not have to be like atlas right? from what you said about wows crafting i dont think it could fit in SOT, but what about tomb raider, i got no clue what its crafting is like. if its like the last of us, then it would mean you find stuff and use it to craft weapons, wich i too feel wouldnt fit SOT. the kind of crafting i think would be good for SOT is its own crafting mechanics, like it already did with fishing, like i said with the merchant idea. there are ways crafting hasnt been done, and there are always new creative ways that SOT could implement it. all im saying is be open to the possibility of it, cause crafting like fishing is really cool and fits SOT well imo. i even think the ability to make potions would be cool. meaningless potions, like ones that make you look funny or watever. just because its meaningless doesnt mean it wouldnt be fun. honestly the ability to craft cursed cannon balls wouldnt be too bad either, but you probs would hate that, and you will probs say that this is an atlas like suggestion, but i do not believe it is.
"I mentioned these things to drive home the point that the only way to bring substance/meaning to crafting systems, is by implementing survival elements to compliment them... Because a crafting system without survival elements, is ultimately just an annoying, tedious and boring gimmick."
maybe it is, but like i said it wouldnt be meaningless in the fact that it could improve immersion. for example, i remember when ps4 was coming out, people were freaking out about how in games, players clothes would move in the wind. is this meaningfull, no it doesnt do anything, but it does improve immersion and makes the game feel way better. again il mention fortnite and trollies (or shopping carts, watever you call them from wherever you are), they do nothing really, but they are still cool. recently fortnite added the ability to swim, did it do anything meaningfull, i mean we used to be able to just walk through water, there really isnt anything special about swimming, but you know what, its cool that you can, and you know what i actually logged onto fortnite just to check it out. i know can you believe that, wierd. my point with this is that, meaningless things can be meaningfull, tedius things can be cool (fortnite water being tedius cause it slows you down when swimming against stream). is it boring, idk i wouldnt describe water as boring, the focus isnt really on the water, more on the game as a whole. i guess what im saying is that it would improve the quality of life, (is that what a quality of life improvement is, idk)
"We already went "wah du hek" when they added crossplay preference to the game... The devs said they were never going to remove crossplay, and whoop de doo, they about to go back on their word, because a very loud minority wants optional crossplay."
true maybe you are right, but i mean you fear crafting because you fear that crafting will make SOT a survival game, but i mean the devs can satisfy peoples crafting needs without turning it into a survival game. it is hard to satisfy peoples wants for the removal of crossplay without actually removing crossplay.
if you fear that crafting would make people want it to be a survial game, lets say we can craft campfires, devs let us craft houses. then maybe instead of doing that they give us an alternative, like private islands that you buy pre made, like in gta. in this case, people cant really ask for the ability to craft houses, cause they can already buy them.
despite this, i do think the devs are jumping the gun on crossplay, there is still stuff they havent tried, in order to improve crossplay, such as aim assist, like seriously devs, why isnt there aim asist, alot of xbox games have aim assist and they arent even online games or anything. lol have the devs seriously never thought of aim assist, i mean it boggles my brains that they made an online game without aim assist on xbox, then it boggles my brains even further that they made it crossplay and still it doesnt have aim assist, idk aim assist just seems like the obvious answer to me.
(why are people asking for reverts on the sword combat? sword combat has always seemed the same to me.)
"And the Rust community is dead, as i've already established... For good reason, probably because the devs made a series of extremely terrible decisions, and listened to the wrong people about suggestions for their game. : /"
i believe rust is actually really good at listening to their community, and like i said it really isnt dead, and i would be genuinely suprised if SOT had more players than rust. are you an xbox player cause i feel you are. rust is a pc exclusive atm so i feel like thats why you underestimate its popularity, im sure most pc gamers know of rust. idk also your whole math thing was wrong i already explained how that was irrelevant.
"There's The Forest, survival game with crafting... Though there's no stealing in that game, because it's not a PvP game, you can play Co-op with friends though. :P"
true but you already argued this point for me, you said crafting and survival go hand in hand, and now i will provide you with statements you provided me "Yeah, like World of Warcraft, and Shadow of the Tomb Raider... of which i have already mentioned and described how their crafting differs from games like Atlas, because they are not survival games."
so either way there you go, i debunked your original point
my point about stealing from people is wrong, i mean if it were right SOT itself would already be a survival game, we steal planks and what not. we should probs define what a survival game is next time, just to remove all this pointless confusion
google definition of survival game: "Survival games are a subgenre of action video games set in a hostile, intense, open-world environment, where players generally begin with minimal equipment and are required to collect resources, craft tools, weapons, and shelter, and survive as long as possible."
"It truly is impressive how much you lack self-awareness. o_o"
i feel like im aware of what you are refering to here but i also feel you are simply not comprehending the differences. i am seeing the differences where you are broadly generalising things in order to make things fit your view of what atlas is and what is like it. idk though maybe you are right.
"...What blanks? The gaps in your knowledge about Atlas? ._."
have you played atlas? i played atlas? and i played many other survival games, for alot of hours. i believe i am just more aware of the differences, because i have spent alot of hours, probs over 5k hours on survival games. who knows maybe you have more but i just dont think you do based on how you view them.
my statement v
"yes i played atlas, it was terrible, i spent 50 hours and didnt get to do anything"
your reply v
"That explains the gaps in your knowledge, i guess... I don't blame you though."
so you are telling me that my actual experience causes a gap in my knowledge, compared to your 0 experience in wich you must have extensive knowledge, idk that just doesnt seem right.
"This is like your third of fourth time mentioning bazookas, what is it with you and bazookas all of a sudden? xD"
hypoble, makes something more apparent.
"I get what you mean though, but i'm not exaggerating, as these things that we're afraid of happening, have already happened, meaning the chance of it happening again are very real, my dude. : /"
i think some people were affraid of cooking and fishing too, but look how that turned out. im sure people were affraid of the extensive ship dmg, and cursed cannon balls too.
"It's not crafting, though that didn't stop you, and other people from thinking it is. When this was first implemented, we actually had several people making posts about expanding this perceived crafting system, cooking recipe's at first, which then evolved into just crafting spears and stuff..."
cooking recipes could be cool, maybe you cook lasagnya and the hunter gives you 1500 instead of just 1k. anyways the idea that cooking can lead to spears, is silly, with that logic, adding wood at all leads to spears. for example we have planks, what if they aded the ability to carve into planks, maybe we could add a name to our ship with this, omg knife + wood = spear, now we have spears. see how this is silly and is just irrelevant, if the adding of cooking is correlated to an increase of spear suggestions, oh well? should we weave away from anything that could possible lead to anything, no you are a very affraid man, i feel like you are jaded to the world of sea of thieves and now believe we gotta tip toe on some sort of spiderweb, something like that anyways.
"Luckily the forum community disagreed as hard as they could at the time, and guess what? That's when people first started using Atlas as an example of what NOT to do to SoT. :P"
lol atlas is used as an example of what not to do with every game in existance, just dont do it. although idk if you even know what its issues are.
lol you have been contradicting yourself in your post but i havent been bothered to mention it cause im not trying to attack you, but here you mention that the forum saved us from survival. there we go il leave it at that cause this is already going to be impossible for you to read and we have been typing so much i feel like theres no way you are getting this far and its all probs for nothing.
my statement v
"ok so now that i explained how it is crafting"
your reply v
No, you didn't... You simply explained that "one could do these things"... You didn't connect them to crafting in any way.
Was there a menu? Did you use coal to fuel the furnace? did you use a knife to rip the shirt?"
i already explained you dont need a menu to have crafting, you dont need a knife to rip a shirt, and idk why adding coal to a furnace matters, it really doesnt.
"It's not a new item, it's the same item with a different appearance. Just like changing clothes doesn't craft a new pirate, you're the same pirate, just with a different appearance. :P"
with this logic when you build a spear you didnt craft nothing, its still the same stick it always was, its the same item with a different appearance.
"I understand, but i don't think you do... Apparently, you seem to think any change in item-state classifies as crafting. Which is straight up wrong."
what classifies as crafting to you? i truely believe you dont understand what crafting is. i think i provided a definition somewhere lol.
lol hey brother i made it to the end ROFL, mate goodluck getting to the bottom of this one, hhahaha like holey moley there is no way. if you see this hello and congrats for making it to the end
