The Case For Double Gun/General Meta Discussion

  • It's no small secret that the sprint cancel exploit allowing quick double shots with two guns has returned, almost certainly unintentionally at the hands of the devs. As unpopular as this will be with the majority of the player base, I'll attempt to explain here why I believe this change should be left as it is, assuming all other factors in the meta are left unchanged. Yes, this is quite a wordy summary of the issue, but I believe it has to be to touch upon all the relevant issues. Anyone that is truly passionate on the topic/the game should be able to digest this and any following discussion that may emerge. Keep in mind this all comes from someone that has almost always mained sniper/sword, but has played both with and against a number of skilled double gunners consistently for some time. Since the update I've been giving double gun more of a shot, and have reached my conclusion on the matter. Here are my thoughts:

    The Skill Factor:
    First and foremost, despite what some may say, this maneuver is at least somewhat skilled and very situational. Executing the cancel and landing both of your shots against a skilled moving opponent is by no means a free kill. This is especially true since you have to be on the ground sprinting forward, even if only briefly, to pull the cancel off. This is usually the opposite of what you want to be doing—it's far safer to maintain distance from a player charging you with a sword or blunderbuss. The cancel promotes a more skilled and aggressive high-risk, high-reward play style that is otherwise absent when double gunning without the cancel. At the same time the skill ceiling is not so high that an average player cannot learn the technique with enough practice and time. Skill-wise this seems to be a perfect balance to me.

    The Sword/Animation Canceling In General:
    The second main reason I see is the state of the current sword meta. Before some of you immediately disregard this, no, I'm not siding with Summit here (not entirely at least). The lock of a good swordsman is extremely difficult to escape when using two guns. Anyone that knows how to move well with a sword and utilize the X cancel can easily chop up even a skilled double gunner in tight spaces where it's hard to maintain distance. Some suggest adding knockback to the EoR and flintlock again, which would help alleviate this issue. Even then though, I believe the sprint cancel should remain. The very fact that you can cancel the sword animation to achieve deadlier results, which hasn't even been acknowledged as an issue by the devs, makes me think canceling reload animations and swap animations should be fine as well. In all cases these "exploits" encourage more skilled and diverse play styles. Removing animation canceling lowers the skill gap, pandering to less skilled players, and cuts down on the versatility of weapons and the variety of combat.

    Oppressive Capacity Compared to Other Weapon Combos:
    Another reason I see for the cancel staying is the fact that other weapon setups are just as oppressive, if not more. The blunderbuss one tap is of course even faster than the sprint cancel pistol snipe combo, being instantaneous. Again, in even moderately skilled hands the blunderbuss is often then just as oppressive as double guns. There is no faster way to clear a ship than to board and quickly one tap all unaware players, aside perhaps lunge spam which is an entirely different issue unto itself. This is made worse by the fact that neither of these fighting styles takes much skill to master—blunderbuss just requires you to stand in their hitbox and pull the trigger, lunge spam is basically just lunging back and forth until everyone is dead, making sure to hit a player or the deck to avoid exhaustion and keeping distance before initiating a lunge. Of course the blunderbuss only has instant kill potential at point blank range, but much of the combat in the game takes place on ships where point blank range isn't uncommon at all. On top of that the weapon still maintains quite a bit of knockback, which serves a utility in itself for maintaining distance from other players. Given the close quarter nature of most ship combat, the damage potential of the gun and this knockback quickly make the gun fairly formidable even in the hands of relatively low skilled players.

    Counters To Double Gun:
    All things considered, even with the sprint cancel double gun is not difficult to counter in most situations. This is especially true of the pistol snipe combo (which seems to be the most vilified combination) since neither weapon has knockback to assist with spacing in the current meta. All players have to do is rush the double gunner and lock them in place with the sword. This is especially true with team strategies considered. Multiple swordsmen locking down a double gunner will quickly dispatch them, even if they are low in skill, so long as they manage to hold them in place initially. The only time double gun is remotely oppressive in ship combat is when you have multiple skilled double gunners backing each other up with coordinated shots and reloads. At that point something has already gone wrong, and having multiple skilled enemy swordsmen on boat would be no less oppressive. There is no reason a high skilled approach to combat (double gunning with sprint cancel) should be nerfed to be on par with a low skill approach (the typical combo being blunder sword) just because it is oppressive in one specific situation.

    Server Side Issues:
    Finally, with the way the servers have been acting lately double gunning puts players at even more of a disadvantage. Hit registration has gotten even worse with the last update, to the point where I find more backtracked shots without hit markers landing kills than shots that clearly hit my target. Ping spikes are now commonplace, making it a toss-up whether or not shots land during the spike. These issues are not nearly as much of an issue to primary sword users—sometimes they even buff the sword in a sense, reverting it back to the dreaded 10ft mess it was for the last two months. Often times a player chasing someone down with a sword can still land hits from unusually far away because they are essentially backtracking them with the sword—a situation any double gunner is more than familiar with, and that is particularly noticeable on the laggy servers we're all dealing with. To be fair, these issues regarding server lag are unacceptable in general, and will hopefully be fixed at some point. However, as long as the servers are as laggy as they currently are they do influence the feasibility of weapon combinations in the current meta.

    Final Thoughts:
    To those of you that vehemently oppose the sprint cancel without ever having tried it (or even having tried double gunning in general), I encourage you to equip two guns yourself, attack an enemy ship, and see how well you do. You might very well find that it takes more skill to pull off than you realize. Even if it is very powerful in the hands of a good player, that doesn't mean it should be removed, especially with the movement sacrifice and overall risk involved with having two guns. Double gunners are essentially glass cannons, even with the cancel, and nerfing such a play style into oblivion in favor of a smaller skill gap is quite frankly ridiculous. If that's really the goal here then they should remove all animation canceling, buff sword and blunder further, increase base movement speed, etc. At that point they may as well add those ridiculous PvE servers a vocal minority are clamoring for, since the PvP combat will be simplified to death. Such changes would certainly spell out the end of the game for the majority of the skilled players I know in the very least. It's no wonder so many skilled players have left already given the state of things.

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  • @imcreepingdeath It has been stated as unintended and unwanted and attempts have been made to remove/nullify it in-game, trying to find another workaround rather than playing as intended is still just exploiting something that is not supposed to be possible.

    Regardless of how much practice it may take to perform what is a clear exploit, doesn't mean it is not an exploit that should be removed or nullified as much as possible.

    I would also apply the same reasoning to the sword exploit and would hope it will be fixed sooner rather than later.

    Both are ridiculous and should have no place in Sea of Thieves even when performed manually and both are far too easily hotkeyed/macro'd to make them even more cheaty and worthy of removal.

    If something is 'fixed', adapt and learn a way to play that is within the confines of the rules, rather than finding another way to simply bend them to the point of breaking.

  • @triheadedmonkey I would agree that in the case of all animation canceling the ease of assigning macros is an issue. The same can be said for any action really though, and I don't believe such issues should be the basis for the argument against animation canceling. As far as I'm aware the devs have clearly stated that macros are considered unacceptable—the issue then is macroing in general, which is not restricted to animation canceling. Macros can be used to gain an edge in all sorts of situations. I understand that the devs are against the double gun sprint cancel in the very least, and potentially against all animation canceling, because yes, all canceling does fall under the category of game exploits. However, exploits or not, my core argument is that they raise the skill ceiling in PvP and make it more competitive and diverse, especially in fights between skilled players. There are plenty of games that have skill based exploits that have become a core part of higher skilled gameplay. Smash Melee comes to mind as a competitive, extremely popular example. Sometimes things that were once exploits in games are later turned into accepted features because of their widespread use and gameplay benefits. Canceling reload animations in CoD comes to mind—being able to cancel the final portion of the reload animation was initially an exploit, but has since become a standard feature in every title. This example lines up directly with the Sea of Thieves reload cancel equivalent.

    I understand not everyone sees this game as a competitive title, and that some of these players would rather see such exploits removed and the skill gap narrowed. At it's heart perhaps it isn't a competitive title, although arena was repeatedly referred to by the devs as a new competitive mode. However, many players do take the game quite seriously in a competitive sense, and as such a player it is from that direction that I am approaching the issue.

  • These exploits are pc players benifits only. Therefore you cannot proclaim 'skill' when the other half of your player base cannot obtain this 'skill'.

    Rare you really need to implement a resolution to the double gun exploit and revert sword play to how it used to be. Combat right now is completely and utterly broken and I do not believe for one minute everything is working as intended. Your whole playerbase who was here from day one are screaming at you we want sword play as it originally was. This game is dying because you are deaf.

  • @captain-fet Though it has been a while, I believe I would be fine with the sword being reverted back to how it was day 1. The range back then felt fine. X canceling was still a thing, there were just few people that knew about it. Blocking and comboing felt far more consistent. Being able to combo on the environment was questionable at best, but was more or less negated by the movement speed slowdown that was applied on swinging a sword without first blocking (a feature I wish they had never changed). I do have to wonder how many of the issues with the sword are simply attributable to laggy servers. I suspect the current issues with inconsistent combos and blocking may be due in large part to the current server instability.

    All that said, no these exploits do not benefit PC only. I played on Xbox for the first year or so of release, and even now play on a lower end laptop, so I think I can speak to this matter to some extent. First and foremost, all of the techniques described above can be pulled off just as easily on Xbox as PC because Xbox has M&K support. None of them are at all impacted by frame rate or graphics settings. They can even be pulled off on controller, though some of them are of course more difficult. Still, I know a number of very skilled PC players that choose to use controller because they're more comfortable with it, and they have no issue performing any of this. I even know some Xbox players that pull it off to great success. If anything pulling such maneuvers off on controller/console is just further example of skill.

  • @imcreepingdeath xbox players cannot make macros which is the exploit I'm talking about

  • @captain-fet Fair enough in regard to macros (although technically I do believe macro controllers exist—we'll assume very few people actually use them). I don't support the use of macros for these exploits, merely the exploits themselves, which anyone can learn to master.

  • @imcreepingdeath said in The Case For Double Gun/General Meta Discussion:

    @captain-fet Fair enough in regard to macros (although technically I do believe macro controllers exist—we'll assume very few people actually use them). I don't support the use of macros for these exploits, merely the exploits themselves, which anyone can learn to master.

    Whatever, usually an exploit means its against the rules, and exploits are obviously not about skill, they are easy win.

    Also most games ban people for using exploits

  • @captain-fet That's where I'm disagreeing. Yes, I believe they are technically against ToS. My point is that they shouldn't be because they do require skill, and shouldn't be removed or considered exploits in the first place. As to how they require skill, I'm not gonna repeat what I said in the original post.

  • @imcreepingdeath they ARE against TOS, not technically. You are advocating cheating

  • @captain-fet I wouldn't necessarily say I'm advocating cheating, but rather a rethinking of what is considered cheating. My whole point is that they are currently considered cheating, but they don't have to be considered as such, largely because they contribute to gameplay in ways I (and many other skilled players) find beneficial. And trust me, I fully expect most people to disagree with me here. Just starting a conversation.

  • @imcreepingdeath lol no its cheating and you cannot spin it any other way

  • @captain-fet Again, I'm not saying it isn't cheating currently, just that it shouldn't be considered cheating in the first place. Yes, macros are cheating. Some exploits are definitely cheating as well. Hacks are the most obvious case of cheating. Animation cancels should not be considered cheap in my opinion. That is all.

  • @imcreepingdeath currently it is cheating. Why can you not see that? Or are you just trying to justify your cheating play style?

  • @captain-fet Are you reading what I'm saying? I just said it is currently considered cheating. We are in agreement in that regard.

  • @imcreepingdeath said in The Case For Double Gun/General Meta Discussion:

    @captain-fet Again, I'm not saying it isn't cheating currently...

  • @captain-fet Reread what you just quoted please. Again, we are in agreement in the fact that it is currently considered cheating. Where we disagree is on whether or not it should be considered cheating. As simply as I can possibly put it, I don't think it should be considered cheating, you do. And I should be clear that I am referring only to animation canceling (sword cancel, reload cancel, sprint cancel, sprint swim/run loot, etc.). Not saying any other exploits are acceptable. End of story.

  • I appreciate the effort in this post, and I read it all.

    Although, I would never double-gun. It's cheating, unintended, and frowned upon from the community. Frankly, I highly dislike the side of the playerbase that encourage it and use it.

    Summit, unfortunately and to no surprise, is an example. He double-guns and throws a fit when the sword is back in play. He's an influencer and a face of the game. If we were to revert back to "Slot 1 - Sword & Slot 2 - Gun" like back in alpha, this would be more than solved.

  • 2 guns is fine. Switching between them faster than intended, even if skillfully executed, is not. If Rare figures this is a problem they are going to keep trying to patch it out.

  • @weepaperboats said in The Case For Double Gun/General Meta Discussion:

    (...) If we were to revert back to "Slot 1 - Sword & Slot 2 - Gun" like back in alpha, this would be more than solved.

    At least until Rare has finally worked out how to negate the use the double gun exploit.

  • More or less the response I expected. Under no situation do I think you should be forced to equip a sword—that does nothing but limit player choice. This is especially true given the buggy state of the sword at the moment. If they are going to remove the sprint cancel again (which they will presumably at least try to do) it seems hypocritical to leave all the other animation canceling exploits in the game. I'd rather such cancels be allowed because they diversify play styles and raise the skill ceiling in combat. That, in essence, is my argument.

  • @triheadedmonkey agreed, my issue with this is that it becomes trivially easy with a macro. Which would give some PC users an actual "I win" button and be unfair to our xbox bretherin.

    I also think, given that Mike Chapman has confirmed additional weapons are coming, maybe we should wait and see how Rare shake up the meta first before talking about bringing back things like double gun which Rare have already decided doesn't fully fit with their vision.

  • Here's my opinion.

    Remove doublegunning by making the cutlass constraint!

    Get rid of any animation breaking!!!

    Not even to dig up faster anything.

    Why?

    It's a game about fun, also fun PvP.
    If you cater to hardcore gamers, you can do so, if you want this game a fun game mainly and not the next E-sport or serious PvP game, dont cater to mechanics pro hardcore gamers use to destroy others.

    Make it a playful cooperative and competetive game or make it a hardcore game.

    If you want the first, get rid of double gunning, animation breaking, Sprint and whatnot exploits.

    If you want it a hardcore PvP game.
    Improve it either and give them more tricks to master.

    I will quit if the latest happens, because i'm a casual gamer.
    I also like r6Siege, but i happily accept i cannot compete there and same is happening with SoT if you dont fix this.

    I'm all fine i had my fun with SoT, i can happily quit it, if it turns into a hardcore PvP game where exploits like double gunning, animation breaking and double x tap sprinting is the meta.

  • @bugaboo-bill I understand that a lot of people play this game casually, and it is generally speaking a more casual game. Animation breaking is a more skill focused technique, and definitely helps skilled players in PvP situations. However, one of the reasons I believe it should stay is that it is not too skilled; the learning curve on these techniques is not that great, any player should be able to pick them up fairly fast and master them in time. Once learned they make combat feel much more interesting thanks to the depth they add. Instead of just hacking, slashing, and shooting away these "exploits" allow for a wider array of more strategic, and in my opinion interesting combat approaches. Even casual gamers could learn these skills and benefit from them—they still have a place in a fairly casual game to me. It would be nice if more people were aware of them and how to execute them though. Then it would feel like more of a play style and less of an exploit perhaps.

    On a side note I seriously don't think they should ever force the sword to be equipped. Assuming they do remove the cancel next patch (which they almost certainly will at least attempt to do) there is no reason at all that double gun should be deemed overpowered and unfair all things considered (see above). I also know some players from Australia and New Zealand that refuse to use the sword on US servers (which they are usually forced into) because their ping makes the sword next to unusable from what they say. It would be very unfortunate for such players to be forced to equip a weapon that is extremely inconsistent in combat at best.

  • @imcreepingdeath sagte in The Case For Double Gun/General Meta Discussion:

    @bugaboo-bill I understand that a lot of people play this game casually, and it is generally speaking a more casual game. Animation breaking is a more skill focused technique, and definitely helps skilled players in PvP situations. However, one of the reasons I believe it should stay is that it is not too skilled; the learning curve on these techniques is not that great, any player should be able to pick them up fairly fast and master them in time. Once learned they make combat feel much more interesting thanks to the depth they add. Instead of just hacking, slashing, and shooting away these "exploits" allow for a wider array of more strategic, and in my opinion interesting combat approaches. Even casual gamers could learn these skills and benefit from them—they still have a place in a fairly casual game to me. It would be nice if more people were aware of them and how to execute them though. Then it would feel like more of a play style and less of an exploit perhaps.

    On a side note I seriously don't think they should ever force the sword to be equipped. Assuming they do remove the cancel next patch (which they almost certainly will at least attempt to do) there is no reason at all that double gun should be deemed overpowered and unfair all things considered (see above). I also know some players from Australia and New Zealand that refuse to use the sword on US servers (which they are usually forced into) because their ping makes the sword next to unusable from what they say. It would be very unfortunate for such players to be forced to equip a weapon that is extremely inconsistent in combat at best.

    I can do most "tricks" but i find it realy annoying to have this fingeracrobatic skills neccessary.
    I'm a great tactician, roundbased :-P
    I am not a clicker Hero.
    And i dont want to become one for SoT ig i'm honest.
    Until i do well in PvP.
    Some wreck me, and i sometimes even dont understand why.
    I say the following not to play down others wins, but these techniques combined with lagspikes, bad hitreg etc. make the combat feel not more tactical, but more luck based.

    Watch this. Do it Slomo and see the player "teleports" after his lunge and immediatley hit me, when he should have to rest for 3 seconds
    I dont saw him doing a Block lunge hit strafe combo, but this is what he maybe successfull did if he did not use a hack.

    For playings sake, that's too e-sports like for me.
    I was a decent CS 1.6 player, but that's 20 years ago :-)
    I like SoT PvP, we have great fighs in general and on the, let's say normal level of combat.
    Some people abuse the system and it's not fun anymore to fight.
    Rare already said it's not intended.
    I'm also very much against bunnyhopping. I can adapt, i can do it bymyself, but i really dont like it and it's not fun and even immersion breaking to me.

    Do you know what i fully support to have more tactical combat?
    Friendly fire!!!
    That adds skill and a tactic element, not of someone can do some fingeracrobatics use equip to support that others dont have.
    As long as some animation breaking exploits are makroable i want them to get removed very restriktive.
    I am ready to sacrifice a more fluid and free combat if we can get rid of exploits that combined with lags and bad hitreg often feel like your opponent hacked.
    That's not really skill it's just another way to spam some keys in the right order.
    Fast combo clicking is not tactic skill. It's fast combo clicking skill.
    To know what to do and where and when is.
    I agree that some players know what, where and when and plus using these tricks are battle deceisive, but tbh it feels not good or is fun or makes me think this is tactical combat.
    I am an Aikidoka and friendly fire in a fight need you to think and move tactical and gives the tactical elements of positioning and distance plus what we already have, choice of weapon.
    If you want tactics than go for stuff thst adds tactics and not stuff thst need nothing but macro's or people with great fingeracrobatics.

    Edit:
    The video above.
    What he did was tactically completely wrong.
    Only the fact that an exploit, a not intended way to not have to rest after a sword lunge gave him upperhand versus me.
    The charge in that a small corridor when i was at the end was predictable, a way better tactical decision maybe was to pull the gun and wait for me coming.

  • @bugaboo-bill It's hard to say exactly what happened in the clip you posted because there was clearly some degree of lag involved. However, I believe it was lag, not an exploit, that led to the inconsistency. I see 2 possibilities: either he attempted the extended jump lunge and failed it but still hit the ground/ship and therefore had no fatigue, or the issue was entirely related to miscommunication between the client and server. If I had to guess I would say it is a bit of a combination between the two scenarios—the reason he seems to teleport is because the server originally acknowledged him as having done the extended lunge, but then updates to properly show him having failed it, falling short of you. He was still able to swing but not move because his lunge hit some part of the ship, which allows you to attack and strafe even during exhaustion. The other possibility is that the lunge was registered as a hit client side for him, and therefore didn't apply exhaustion, but not registered as a hit by the server, hence the lack of damage from the lunge. Regardless of the case, lag/poor communication between the server and client are to blame.

    These are some of the biggest game breaking issues I see in the game in it's current state. Server instability has been even worse since the update, leading to weird scenarios like this, bad hit detection, periods of invincibility, delayed damage, and so on. I honestly wish Rare would first address these network level issues in combat and then attempt to balance other aspects of combat; attempting to balance PvP with the servers in their current state seems foolish and doomed to fail.

    As a side note, I do agree that friendly fire could lead to more strategic fights. It would greatly punish lunge/sword/blunder spam in the tight confines of a ship, forcing players to further evaluate their attacks. I highly doubt this will ever be added however—people have been asking for some time to at least have the option to toggle friendly fire in order to be able to duel crew mates, a feature which still hasn't been introduced.

  • Just went against @ImCreepingDeath and it's crew in arena and can confirm they are definitely using the macro'd use of this exploit. Rare needs to buckle down and start handing out bans to players like them. Four exploiters on a ship and spawn camping a 3 man galleon is not acceptable. So @ImCreepingDeath I doubt you ever won a match fairly, must feel good knowing that your victories are shallow ones.

  • All the exploits should be fixed. I don't really care for explanations on why they are great, because they are not. If the balance is bad, then it should not be fixed by leaving exploits in the game.

  • @reginald-pudge I would love to see your proof that I'm using a macro, because I'm not. It is sort of funny to me that you found this older post and resurrected it to say this, but I stand by my case.

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