@katttruewalker They can say what ever they like it doesn't mean anything. Like are all if all the 100 hundreds or thousands of additional players New Players? or what percentage is returning players? Or how long do players actual play for? This tells us nothing about the games retention rate and by extention quality. It merely show how effective is the marking? It's clear most players pick up and tries the game merely by the way it Looks. This has no bearing on gamplay.

@foxdodge said in Calling on Rare to Release Player Count Data:

@t-degennaro3106 That could do more harm than good. Perception can be a funny thing, take panic buying for example. People perceive there to be a shortage of something when there isn't, but by then running out and panic buying they have created a shortage.

This is a red flag to me as this means they only tote out numbers cause there good. Meaning the game must have poor player retiantion and active player count if they don't wish to release it. Cause it's clear they will glad spit out numbers if there good. This is a Marking tactic. Your right if they release the numbers and there bad thats poor Marketing. This just lends to the idea that player retention is bad and they just count on an influx of new and returning players every so often where most of the peak times are concentrated around content drops and sales. This is what any game with good marketing can pull off despite quality of gameplay.

I assure you if the normal active player count was healthy for a Multiplayer game they would not stop bragging about it. It's what all MP games do.

@T-DeGennaro3106 This is somthing i ask for since day one but i won't ever expect to see it. As i explianed above it is a terrible marketing stratergy.

A business will never tell you they are doing bad. They would only ever release good news that makes themselves look good.
Not saying anything about Rare more of just Basic business tactics in general..

@enf0rcer said in Calling on Rare to Release Player Count Data:

I assure you if the normal active player count was healthy for a Multiplayer game they would not stop bragging about it. It's what all MP games do.

But what's considered "healthy?" I'm just throwing random numbers out there but if Rare see's 200,000 active players as healthy and sustainable for their business model why would they release it to the public who might say something like, "Rare's new multiplayer game takes a massive bomb in player retention as it goes from 5 million copies sold to only 200,000 active players!" Also what constitutes an active player? Someone who logs in once a day? Once a week? A few times during the bilge rat adventures and DLC's?

You see these numbers are useless to us unless we know what Rare is expecting to get out of their game. If they were only ever expecting to hit say 250,000 people every week but they're actually seeing 400,000 who are we to say that the game is failing or falling apart when in reality according to Rare they're doing BETTER than projected?

These numbers that you're demanding are useless without Rare's business plan for Sea of Thieves.

@starship42 Exactly. The only times I've ever been merged are at the end of late night sessions.

@je0rgie-p0rgie said in Calling on Rare to Release Player Count Data:

@enf0rcer said in Calling on Rare to Release Player Count Data:

I assure you if the normal active player count was healthy for a Multiplayer game they would not stop bragging about it. It's what all MP games do.

But what's considered "healthy?" I'm just throwing random numbers out there but if Rare see's 200,000 active players as healthy and sustainable for their business model why would they release it to the public who might say something like, "Rare's new multiplayer game takes a massive bomb in player retention as it goes from 5 million copies sold to only 200,000 active players!" Also what constitutes an active player? Someone who logs in once a day? Once a week? A few times during the bilge rat adventures and DLC's?

You see these numbers are useless to us unless we know what Rare is expecting to get out of their game. If they were only ever expecting to hit say 250,000 people every week but they're actually seeing 400,000 who are we to say that the game is failing or falling apart when in reality according to Rare they're doing BETTER than projected?

These numbers that you're demanding are useless without Rare's business plan for Sea of Thieves.

That is actually a Good Question as it would have to be compared to it's closes Genre.

Seeing as this on not in any an MMO i would have to discount that bar as it is quite high.
I would define this game as a Co-Op Loot Grinder/ wrapped in a Multiplayer FPS arena. With the closest comparison being the Division dark zone. Seeing as a full sever is a Min of six players with the max being 24 players. Giving all these factors My best a personal estamate for a Healty base active player count should be at bare minimum 2-3K and 10K at peak times with a total peak of around or over a 100 thousand. Simular to what i expect the division to be now. Thats just my personal opinion as to what Microsoft and Rare consider to be the estimated numbers i would not know.

BTW way when i say Active Player Count I mean the actual of playing at any given time. Why would i care how many potentenal player could be on. I want the number of actual players are actively playing so i don't end up on a dead server. As far as player retension 5 mil to 250k is already a huge drop but the 5 mill i consider as over inflation as the game is cheap and free to try do to Gampass. We and Rare could only hope that the Core playerbase is 250k as i always saw this game as a very nich game. We don't actually know how large the Core Base is. So i can't argue on that as we have no facts just conjecture. Only Rare Knows the numbers and they don't want to give it out. Which can only mean that they think it's bad it may not be bad at all. All i can conclude from there recent statments is that the Core base is within and just over 100k region which is half of 250k

@starship42 I agree completely, It was just generalisation if any company.

It would be insane for any company to release any statistics unless it was in there interests. Money talks and you don’t talk unless there’s money.

There is no point in players returning at this point in the game, the core gameplay is in a shallow state that requires adressing. The main 3 quests and the legend quest need tweeks and new quets to add variety and options for old and new players. My ultimatum is that Rare has until March 20 to add at least 1 new quest type for every voyage company that isn't a fetch quest like cargo runs.

I much prefer that this game gets out of the uncorfortable 7/10 to go straight into 8/10, but for that the main quets and the legendary quests need to be engaging most of the way through.

Why bother?

I play the game, i have fun, i see other players, we cooperate, we compete or we keep ourselves at distance.
Some weeks are less frequented, some events are crowded.
All fine to me.
Why bother and why to live that much in the future or the past, but in present?

If you are full of fear you care too much about the future.
If you are depressive you care too much about the past.
If you are happy and satisfied, you live in the present.
Laozi

Enjoy the moment, if you cannot try to change what you are doing or learn to accept what is not changeable.
Why worry?
Can you change it?
Yes, then why worry
No, then why worry.

As long as i can play and have fun, i just dont care or worry about anything.
Nit my Job, i'm just here to play and have fun and maybe give feedback, but not to care about their business.

@enf0rcer said in Calling on Rare to Release Player Count Data:

Seeing as this on not in any an MMO i would have to discount that bar as it is quite high.

Again those numbers were randomly thrown out there. I could have used 1.2 million or 200. The logic behind the numbers is still the same. If anything it proves my point even further, the numbers are useless unless we know what their business plan is.

BTW way when i say Active Player Count I mean the actual of playing at any given time. Why would i care how many potentenal player could be on.

Because an active player base that plays the game frequently, purchases things from the cash shop (once it's implemented), and who interacts with Rare on social media / the forums to provide feedback, is what keeps the game sustainable. Those are players that Rare cares about and that's the point. What you and I care about could be completely different than what Rare cares about from a business standpoint.

For instance if you play at 3 AM eastern and constantly are merged from server to server you might think the game is almost completely barren. When in reality the game has an active community it's just not as lively during your play periods. That doesn't mean it's inactive though and having hard numbers on how many players are playing won't change that.

Only Rare Knows the numbers and they don't want to give it out. Which can only mean that they think it's bad it may not be bad at all.

No I think you've got this completely backwards, which was the whole point of my original argument. Just because Rare doesn't release the numbers does not mean THEY think those numbers are bad. They could believe those numbers are great but choose not to release those numbers because PLAYERS might think those numbers are bad.

Releasing these numbers might only startle the community because their false perception of success isn't met by their own expectations. In which case being silent is a good thing.

@je0rgie-p0rgie said in Calling on Rare to Release Player Count Data:

@enf0rcer said in Calling on Rare to Release Player Count Data:

Seeing as this on not in any an MMO i would have to discount that bar as it is quite high.

Again those numbers were randomly thrown out there. I could have used 1.2 million or 200. The logic behind the numbers is still the same. If anything it proves my point even further, the numbers are useless unless we know what their business plan is.

The problem is people keep throwing out numbers without understanding what they mean creating a false perception. Players as consumers should educate themselves on the product so they can be a good consumer.

BTW way when i say Active Player Count I mean the actual of playing at any given time. Why would i care how many potentenal player could be on.

Because an active player base that plays the game frequently, purchases things from the cash shop (once it's implemented), and who interacts with Rare on social media / the forums to provide feedback, is what keeps the game sustainable. Those are players that Rare cares about and that's the point. What you and I care about could be completely different than what Rare cares about from a business standpoint.

Well we are not talking about what Rare cares about as a company, but why we should care to demand this kind of information as it IS valueable to us as players, But Rare wont release the numbers most likely cause they think it will negitively affect there company. Which they might be right. This is Why we need to Demand this as they won't just give it to us.

For instance if you play at 3 AM eastern and constantly are merged from server to server you might think the game is almost completely barren. When in reality the game has an active community it's just not as lively during your play periods. That doesn't mean it's inactive though and having hard numbers on how many players are playing won't change that.

Yes knowing the numbers don't change them thats not the point of knowning the numbers. Because we don't have the numbers players have to make assumption on the games state based only on their own personal experiance which is why where disscussing these things on the forum. So if a player plays this game and a majority of the time not find anyone they would have to conclude the game is dying. Where as If we had the numbers and they were track like how steam does then players can make informed decision. Cause they will be able to look up peak times and we could have a more acurate count of the Total core player base and would not have these arguments if this game is dying. Instead Rare only throws out really high numbers with no baselevel leaving leaving gamer with false impressions. Such as the 5 million Unique Player ID, most player here and see that and expect that the playerbase is 5mill which is misleading as this olny count for People who turned on the game or had changed GT or use multiple GT cause this game was essentially Free due to Gampass that number is easily expected and is just an over inflation of what would be the core base.

Only Rare Knows the numbers and they don't want to give it out. Which can only mean that they think it's ba d it may not be bad at all.

No I think you've got this completely backwards, which was the whole point of my original argument. Just because Rare doesn't release the numbers does not mean THEY think those numbers are bad. They could believe those numbers are great but choose not to release those numbers because PLAYERS might think those numbers are bad.

This is irrelevent not backwards. More like symantics As If they think the number makes there game look bad in the eyes of the player just means they think the numbers look bad and only spout numbers they think would sound good to players. Like the 100k new active players. This agian mean little but sounds good. As we don't know the baseline or the retention rates only that Players are still interested and want to try the new content. Not how good the content is and how long it will retain those players. It's good for a busness sense if the majority of users ar from gamepass as thats there main source of revenue.

Releasing these numbers might only startle the community because their false perception of success isn't met by their own expectations. In which case being silent is a good thing.

The Perception has been created by Rare as we don't know the numbers. When they stated the 5 mill number that was a bar they chose to set. Some players still falsely think this is an MMO due to the vague marketing at times.

Anyways Rare states they won't realease the numbers cause they say it's unimportant to players. Which I whole heartly Dissagree. If the numbers were not important we wouldn't be asking for them, We wouldn't be discussing them. It wouldn't be an industry standered to record and track them on platforms like steam.

We are the consumers. We must demand quailty from our Products, Transparency from the companies business practices and We must demand the realease of all relevent information so we can be Educated and act as Pro consumers. This is our responsiblity as Consumers we can't let Fanboism to continue to sheild companies from doing anti-consumer practices. That is bad for Everyone both the Consumer as well as the company.

@enf0rcer said in Calling on Rare to Release Player Count Data:

The problem is people keep throwing out numbers without understanding what they mean creating a false perception. Players as consumers should educate themselves on the product so they can be a good consumer.

The numbers I threw out were specifically used for our discussion. There's a difference between using numbers to build a point and using numbers to claim something as fact. Without the real numbers we need "example numbers" in order to easily hold a discussion.

Well we are not talking about what Rare cares about as a company, but why we should care to demand this kind of information as it IS valueable to us as players, But Rare wont release the numbers most likely cause they think it will negitively affect there company. Which they might be right. This is Why we need to Demand this as they won't just give it to us.

Except it does matter what Rare cares about. The point is that it's BECAUSE Rare cares about the community perception or the PR (public relations) it has with the gaming community that they won't release numbers they feel people might blow out of proportion.

With these numbers public people might freak out if there is a dip in activity and might start flooding the forums with "Sea of Thieves looses another 4,000 daily active players." We don't need posts like that on the forums, Rare is well aware of the different dips and trends in the player base. We don't need useless posts like that clogging up the forums.

Yes knowing the numbers don't change them thats not the point of knowning the numbers. Because we don't have the numbers players have to make assumption on the games state based only on their own personal experiance which is why where disscussing these things on the forum. So if a player plays this game and a majority of the time not find anyone they would have to conclude the game is dying. Where as If we had the numbers and they were track like how steam does then players can make informed decision. Cause they will be able to look up peak times and we could have a more acurate count of the Total core player base and would not have these arguments if this game is dying. Instead Rare only throws out really high numbers with no baselevel leaving leaving gamer with false impressions. Such as the 5 million Unique Player ID, most player here and see that and expect that the playerbase is 5mill which is misleading as this olny count for People who turned on the game or had changed GT or use multiple GT cause this game was essentially Free due to Gampass that number is easily expected and is just an over inflation of what would be the core base.

So it sounds like to me that you only want these numbers public so that other players will stop making the claim that this game is "dying?" That's it. People will ALWAYS find a way to complain about something in a game. I mean I've seen developers pump out content to the point where the community started complaining that they didn't have time to finish the previously implemented stuff.

This is irrelevent not backwards. More like symantics As If they think the number makes there game look bad in the eyes of the player just means they think the numbers look bad and only spout numbers they think would sound good to players. Like the 100k new active players. This agian mean little but sounds good. As we don't know the baseline or the retention rates only that Players are still interested and want to try the new content. Not how good the content is and how long it will retain those players. It's good for a busness sense if the majority of users ar from gamepass as thats there main source of revenue.

It's not irrelevant, it's good PR. It's entirely possible to meet internal goals but still fall short of the expectations of the community. That's partly why developers don't allow people to discuss closed door testing with the public. Things change and if people hear something is currently in testing or in development and then it gets the chopping block it can cause a stir among the community. It's about managing the expectations of your player base. You don't need people screaming "smoke, smoke smoke" when there isn't even a fire.

We are the consumers. We must demand quailty from our Products, Transparency from the companies business practices and We must demand the realease of all relevent information so we can be Educated and act as Pro consumers. This is our responsiblity as Consumers we can't let Fanboism to continue to sheild companies from doing anti-consumer practices. That is bad for Everyone both the Consumer as well as the company.

How is the quality of the game affected by knowing the number of players playing at any given time? Are you talking about the quality of your experience? If the servers do their jobs you should always be on a server with other players, plain and simple. If you play during a period of time where a lot of server merges happen then either 1) find a different time slot to play in 2) or if that's not possible you'll need to deal with the merges. Both of those can be figured out and done without knowing the exact number of people playing the game. Rare is more transparent that a majority of game developers out there. They're fantastic when it comes to communication and stepping up and admitting when they've done wrong.

@je0rgie-p0rgie said in Calling on Rare to Release Player Count Data:

@enf0rcer said in Calling on Rare to Release Player Count Data:

The problem is people keep throwing out numbers without understanding what they mean creating a false perception. Players as consumers should educate themselves on the product so they can be a good consumer.

The numbers I threw out were specifically used for our discussion. There's a difference between using numbers to build a point and using numbers to claim something as fact. Without the real numbers we need "example numbers" in order to easily hold a discussion.

I understand that your throwing out number as exaples to facilate disscussion this was not my point. My point is not what numbers are but what they represent is being misunderstood. So it doens't matter the acual number if players don't understand there meaning and are using them incorrectly.

Well we are not talking about what Rare cares about as a company, but why we should care to demand this kind of information as it IS valueable to us as players, But Rare wont release the numbers most likely cause they think it will negitively affect there company. Which they might be right. This is Why we need to Demand this as they won't just give it to us.

Except it does matter what Rare cares about. The point is that it's BECAUSE Rare cares about the community perception or the PR (public relations) it has with the gaming community that they won't release numbers they feel people might blow out of proportion.

Sure all companies have to manage PR. The issue is how and why they choose to do it?
Players might blow things out of proportantion If and only If they don't understand What they mean. Thats Why i feel players should Educate themselves instead of reling on the company to tell what you should and shouldn't Know.

With these numbers public people might freak out if there is a dip in activity and might start flooding the forums with "Sea of Thieves looses another 4,000 daily active players." We don't need posts like that on the forums, Rare is well aware of the different dips and trends in the player base. We don't need useless posts like that clogging up the forums.

Well if the Game did lose 4,000 players perminatly as in over a long period of time that would be concerning and is somthing worth disscussing. I get that you don't want to see negitive post in the forums but these number can also benifit the defense of the game as well. It's good to promote disscussion rather then argue over made up perceptions.

Yes knowing the numbers don't change them thats not the point of knowning the numbers. Because we don't have the numbers players have to make assumption on the games state based only on their own personal experiance which is why where disscussing these things on the forum. So if a player plays this game and a majority of the time not find anyone they would have to conclude the game is dying. Where as If we had the numbers and they were track like how steam does then players can make informed decision. Cause they will be able to look up peak times and we could have a more acurate count of the Total core player base and would not have these arguments if this game is dying. Instead Rare only throws out really high numbers with no baselevel leaving leaving gamer with false impressions. Such as the 5 million Unique Player ID, most player here and see that and expect that the playerbase is 5mill which is misleading as this olny count for People who turned on the game or had changed GT or use multiple GT cause this game was essentially Free due to Gampass that number is easily expected and is just an over inflation of what would be the core base.

So it sounds like to me that you only want these numbers public so that other players will stop making the claim that this game is "dying?"

No I'm arguing that Players be Informed in order to make better disicions and also so they can take productive action. Like in the Example where a player with these number could look up the Peak times for there location.

That's it. People will ALWAYS find a way to complain about something in a game. I mean I've seen developers pump out content to the point where the community started complaining that they didn't have time to finish the previously implemented stuff.

This is true weather they gave the information or not. Players have been stumbling on remnants of cut content for years. While it's true player get bum out hearing about cut or unfinish content they don't riot over it. The problem we have now is companies who clear lock completed content behind a paywall after already paying for the game Like in the case of Bungie and the destiny Franchise.
Or games Losing Quilty as Quilty content was dropped and replaced with Lazy and Garbage content. Like how Stories in some games where etheir Cut, Changed otr Removed entierly to poor mangement and leadership.

This is irrelevent not backwards. More like symantics As If they think the number makes there game look bad in the eyes of the player just means they think the numbers look bad and only spout numbers they think would sound good to players. Like the 100k new active players. This agian mean little but sounds good. As we don't know the baseline or the retention rates only that Players are still interested and want to try the new content. Not how good the content is and how long it will retain those players. It's good for a busness sense if the majority of users ar from gamepass as thats there main source of revenue.

It's not irrelevant, it's good PR. It's entirely possible to meet internal goals but still fall short of the expectations of the community. That's partly why developers don't allow people to discuss closed door testing with the public. Things change and if people hear something is currently in testing or in development and then it gets the chopping block it can cause a stir among the community. It's about managing the expectations of your player base. You don't need people screaming "smoke, smoke smoke" when there isn't even a fire.

Frist off you can contend not giving the information as smoke. Now i don't adhere to the idea of where theres "smoke theres fire" but is a valid concern that should be investigated and disscussed.

Second your right good PR is important to a Company therefore they are incentvise not to give you information that makes them look bad. This doesn't mean we as the Consumer should not be able to access to this information. Infact we should hold the right to this information. It would be like saying Customers don't need to know that we feed our animal antibiotics cause then they might think the meat came from a sick animal thus won't buy our meat product. Since the meat is medically safe to eat we don't need to tell them. That to me is rediculas. This is a rather extreme example i'll amit but you get the point. It's a Principle. We have the right to know about the things we consume. In a Multiplayer Experiance where the core expect comes from player interaction I should want to Know How much interaction to expect.

Lastly It is the Dev and Publishers that set players expectation with there marketing. When they start saying numbers like 5 mill unque Player Id's and 100 thousands more active players They create and Expectation and with out a baseline of refence or other number to use in context then you as a company are leading player have a false perception and inturn have unrealistic expectation. Theres a reason Why we have things like hype Trians.

We are the consumers. We must demand quailty from our Products, Transparency from the companies business practices and We must demand the realease of all relevent information so we can be Educated and act as Pro consumers. This is our responsiblity as Consumers we can't let Fanboism to continue to sheild companies from doing anti-consumer practices. That is bad for Everyone both the Consumer as well as the company.

How is the quality of the game affected by knowing the number of players playing at any given time?

A) So we can have a baseline to which we can objectively measure Quality.

B) So players can have the Knowage a tools to get the most from there Experiance.

Are you talking about the quality of your experience?

Yes. Thats Half my case. Cause when you purchase a Game your Paying for an Experiance if that Experiance is poor the quality is poor. Like if i go Watch a Movie The movie itself can be Awesome and a Masterpiece, From the story to the cinetagrapy, but this means nothing if i got there late case the theather didn't post the time or the Screen was bad that day cause my theather was going broke.

If the servers do their jobs you should always be on a server with other players, plain and simple.

I totaly agree unfortunatly this isn't always the case.

If you play during a period of time where a lot of server merges happen then either 1) find a different time slot to play in 2) or if that's not possible you'll need to deal with the merges. Both of those can be figured out and done without knowing the exact number of people playing the game.

Sure this could be done but that doesn't mean the numbers don't serve a purpose. I fact like i stated before knowing the number can assist in making this disicion. If the numbers for my peak times and non peak time are drasticly different then i might want to opt for playing on those peak time while on the other hand if they were mostly simular i might just choose to deal with the sever merges and expect to have to play around them.

Rare is more transparent that a majority of game developers out there. They're fantastic when it comes to communication and stepping up and admitting when they've done wrong.

Well i woudn't say Fantastic at least in general. As far as a AAA studio goes they are indeed by far the best. It is somthing i repeatly give them priase for and somthing that i repect and admire. Which is also why i wish for them to become more transparent. If they screw up and admit there mistake thats awesome as this is the frist step to fixing any mistake. As many other Studios as well as publisher have choosen to double and triple down on there mistakes as of late.

This is why i feel Rare is heading in the right Direction and is why SS update has been the best by far. I will continue to push for more transparency and for disscussion as it is the only way to ensure we get Quailty content and You should want this to. Cause Companies won't give you Quility unless you Demand It. Rember the Rule of Supply and Demand.

@enf0rcer I've enjoyed this discussion immensely enf0rcer, however, we're starting to break down and debate about every single word each of us is saying and it's becoming more and more of a chore to respond as the discussion progresses, so I'll leave it at this.

I understand and respect your transparency point of view and being a business major myself respect the idea of transparency as a consumer. My argument isn't that it SHOULDN'T happen it's about why it most likely WON'T happen. We can demand, petition, beg, and plead all we want but at the end of the day Rare will only release that information IF they want to and I just don't see them doing it for the reasons I've already stated. The benefits they receive need to outweigh the potential backlash, if they don't I can assure you, you'll never see the numbers you're demanding for.

@je0rgie-p0rgie said in Calling on Rare to Release Player Count Data:

@enf0rcer I've enjoyed this discussion immensely enf0rcer, however, we're starting to break down and debate about every single word each of us is saying and it's becoming more and more of a chore to respond as the discussion progresses, so I'll leave it at this.

I understand and respect your transparency point of view and being a business major myself respect the idea of transparency as a consumer. My argument isn't that it SHOULDN'T happen it's about why it most likely WON'T happen. We can demand, petition, beg, and plead all we want but at the end of the day Rare will only release that information IF they want to and I just don't see them doing it for the reasons I've already stated. The benefits they receive need to outweigh the potential backlash, if they don't I can assure you, you'll never see the numbers you're demanding for.

I must say we can at least agree that Rare won't give us the numbers willingly. I never epected them to. I do disagree with some arguments posted here in the Topic that.

A) The numbers are not important to players and

B) That given out any such information is detrimental.

I also enjoyed this thoughful disscussion and appreciate you sharing your views from a buisness side as a Major in Buisness. It is always good to have express knowlage from bothsides.

@t-degennaro3106 Why? I ask, why? Isnt it just irrelevant info if you yourself are having fun playing it?