Sailing against the wind ?! - Crossing the wind

  • xDragon2781

    Hi,
    I'm sailing in RL and the biggest issue I have with this game is the sailing against the wind.
    I think it is clear to everybody that it is not possible to sail against the wind. When the wind is blowing into the front of the sails then the ship should move backwards.
    In my opinion the sail physics of a pirate game should be more realistic than that what I've seen in the videos.
    In the game you are able to turn the sails right and left. This is awesome but your not forced to do that when the ship is always driving forward independent of the wind direction.
    A more realistic behaviour would make ship battles more intense because you can outrun an enemy.
    To navigate to a location you have to cross the wind instead of driving a straight line.
    You can turn the sails against the wind by purpose to slow down the ship when mooring.

    What are your opinions?

    EDIT:

    I know that the game is made to be fun and not a simulation. It just hurts my sailor's heart when I see something like that.
    Maybe make a compromise and just stop the ship when the wind comes from straight ahead.

    For the non-sailing-experienced people: When you want to go to an island but the wind direction is coming from there, you need to cross the wind. That means you turn the sails to the right and turn the ship slightly to the right too so the wind comes not directly from the front. After some time you turn the ship and the sails to the left. That is crossing close-hauled.

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  • Musicmee
    Vanguard
    Insider
    Moderator
    Founder
    Deckhand

    @xdragon2781 I quite like the way it works now... it doesn't punish you too much but not allowing you to go in the direction of your next islands because the wind is going the wrong way, but I also like that it praises you for turning the sails so they catch the wind and make you go faster.

    To me, that's the fairer balance not too punishing and rewarding the right action.

  • ZenZuki
    Master
    Insider

    The game isn't aiming for simulation...

    It's aiming for fun!

    I'd imagine more people would rather fight other things all day than the wind!

  • Landiien
    Master
    Founder

    @xdragon2781

    I feel like it might also create a disadvantage for solo players who can't steer and angle sails simultaneously like crews of two or more can.

    I like the goofy, arcade feel of the game, whether that be the unrealistic sailing or firing yourself out of a canon!

  • xDragon2781

    @zenzuki I don't want a simulation too. I just want a feature to make it a bit (!) more realistic. Maybe not driving backwards but stop the ship when the wind is coming straight ahead....

  • Colonel ViRuS
    Founder

    I've been tacking anyway, the speed you get from it seems to out strip players just going against the wind (at least from my experience).

  • ZenZuki
    Master
    Insider

    @xDragon2781 Into the wind is the only real way a sloop can get outta dodge when fleeing a Galleon though.

    It works for this game.

  • Colonel ViRuS
    Founder

    @landiien said in Sailing against the wind ?! - Crossing the wind:

    @xdragon2781

    I feel like it might also create a disadvantage for solo players who can't steer and angle sails simultaneously like crews of two or more can.

    I like the goofy, arcade feel of the game, whether that be the unrealistic sailing or firing yourself out of a canon!

    Oh I dunno... I already do it solo, it's not that hard to do solo. You just steer the boat, change the sail to the opposite angle, then go back to steering. Everything takes less than a couple of seconds when you're solo.

  • dreiFois
    Marauder
    Insider

    @xdragon2781 we should summon here
    one of our fellow experts to talk about beating, my friend.
    It .IS. technically possible to sail against the wind (so downwind, right @zagwitz ?)

  • xDragon2781

    @dreifois No, it is not possible to sail directly against the wind like you can do in the game.
    Yes, you can sail close to the wind and cross it to get where you want to go but you can not sail directly against the wind.
    But like I said, I don't want to have a simulation! This game should be fun, I just want to have a little bit (!) more realism and not sail against the wind. Please stop the ship when the wind is coming from straight ahead.

  • Inbred Chimera

    I personally don't think sailing directly against the wind should work. What you sometimes get it 'paddling', where angling the rudder left to right constantly acts as a paddle that very, very slowly propels the ship forward without need for wind.

    That said, the sloop and galleon are sized-down representatives or real ships, and the reality of small ships was that against the wind, they'd just whip the oars out. I don't think sloops could do this, but the sloop in SoT could since its deck is so low. So i'd was the windless drift is actually a simulation of the ambient momentum produces by the paddles that would be present on a larger crew (I guess sloops would be around 25 man crews).

    I think a very slow drift should always be available, but any wind powered propulsion should always actually require the wind.

  • dreiFois
    Marauder
    Insider

    @xdragon2781 no, directly you can't, that's true. I'd like too to be forced into tacking, to sail downwind...

  • Thewolfman321
    Captain
    Founder

    @xDragon2781 I see what you're saying, but this mechanic would kill the game.

    Say the island you need to get to is just directly behind you, and the wind is blowing in the opposite direction. You then have to what... wait until it changes? That's a little silly IMO. Just leave the sailing into wind mechanic as is now. It's slow enough to cause a problem, but doesn't stop you from completing tasks.

    It doesn't break the immersion to sail into headwinds, and it slows you down enough that people will want to avoid it. I think rare have done very well to balance realism with the type of game they are making. You sound like the people that want a survival realism game, and that's just not what this is meant to be.

  • xDragon2781

    @thewolfman321 said in Sailing against the wind ?! - Crossing the wind:

    Say the island you need to get to is just directly behind you, and the wind is blowing in the opposite direction. You then have to what... wait until it changes?

    No no no! You cross the wind.
    You turn the sails so they are sideways and you can go close to the wind direction (but not directly). Then you cross the wind by turining the ship some degree to the other side and turning the sails to the other side too.

    It's hard to explain but easy when you see what I mean. Can I upload pictures here?!

    EDIT:

    Here an example:
    alt text

  • CaseSugar401098

    Yeah the soaking directly into the wind part of the game is a little jarring to watch. Especially because it seems you need to sail upwind nearly 90% of the time somehow.

    If a ship were to stop or move backwards though people would give up playing the game pretty fast. I'm sure they may have tested this and I imagine it had to be frustrating.

    Does the game reward crossing the wind with greater speed at least, I've never seen anyone get good results trying it.

  • NAAMAR1
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    In every game the developers have to make decisions regarding the fine line between realism and fun. Taking away some of the fun in the name of realism can ruin the gaming experience, which in this case, in my opinion, would make sailing tedious and annoying.

  • A Cranky Eskimo
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    I agree, make sailing directly into the wind impossible but even the slightest angle will catch wind to tack, and also the ship and sails don’t react properly to wind conditions.

    If a galleon has a wind coming from the port with only the front sail down and it is catching the wind, the ship should be pushed in a clockwise motion until the wind is behind the ship, or vice versa. If the back sail was down then it would be turning counter clockwise, while moving forward somewhat too ofcourse. This was all with the wheel locked straight, And going straight with sidewinds would require players to take the wind into account when using the helm.

  • The Lion Turtle
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    If they did this I wouldn't buy it. I'm looking for a game that's fun to play, not a sailing simulator. If I wanted that I would go find one to play.

  • A Cranky Eskimo
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    I don’t see how having to learn a simple thing like not sailing directly into the wind or wind having a dynamic affect on the ship based on sails is that hard to learn.... adds a lot more variability to sailing tactics and the winds affect on battle that’s for sure. I guess if simple is what people want.. still not that complex if this stuff was added, just would need to be learned.

  • xCALYPT0x
    Master
    Insider
    Boatswain

    I really want them to make it so that you can sail directly in the wind but tacking yields better results. That way, inexperienced players can still get to their destinations by sailing straight into the wind, but experienced players can utilize tacking as a game mechanic to go faster.

  • A Cranky Eskimo
    Master
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    Founder

    @xcalypt0x that would work for me, I still think the ship should be pushed more realistically by the wind and specifically depending on what sails are up or down and by how much etc. you should be able to barely drift turns by using just the sails, if you know what i mean.

  • Ironuzuka
    Master
    Insider

    I am also an experienced sailor, and I did get the feeling that doing close hauled was faster than going head to wind.
    As for still moving when facing the wind I don't mind as long as it is moving slower than any other sails positions (which is what I felt was happening).
    Maybe my mind be playing tricks on me for I have been at sea for a long time nuw!

    I feel like me boat is possessed by a Klabautermann! Sailors looking for the legendary treasure the One Piece, might have heard about such spirits.

    Remember lads, the boat be going forward when the sails are still up! This don't make no sense either! Zavy ?

  • Thewolfman321
    Captain
    Founder

    @xdragon2781 oooooooooooookay, that makes more sense. I did not understand what you meant by that before, I do however still disagree xD Although I can see your idea working in the game now, but it still feels a little to realistic for a game such as this.

  • Jedi Jez
    Marauder
    Founder

    I like the mechanics the way they are: rewarding, but not outright stubborn.

    Raising sails with a full wheel lock just rotates the boat so you can get out of tight anchorages, etc. There's a practicality to the limitations.

    I appreciate the desire for authenticity, but there's not much point to it in this game. New players (tutorial depending) will undoubtedly look at the ship with the sail down and forwards and see it as 'just how a ship looks'. They'll be taught how to angle the sails, obviously, but there'll always be 'someone' that sails straight in direction they need to go. And causing that person grief or punishing them by dragging them backwards just doesn't make sense.

    There is enough in the wind and sailing that people who sail well will be rewarded with time, speed, positioning and agility. A ship sailing into a headwind just doesn't go anywhere fast enough for it to matter to the rest of us. I know people will want to know why they're not going very fast (and a good tutorial will solve that) but for the people who forget, sending them backwards just seems... harsh.

  • Inkar Agobi
    Legend
    Insider

    @xdragon2781 said in Sailing against the wind ?! - Crossing the wind:

    @thewolfman321 said in Sailing against the wind ?! - Crossing the wind:

    Say the island you need to get to is just directly behind you, and the wind is blowing in the opposite direction. You then have to what... wait until it changes?

    No no no! You cross the wind.
    You turn the sails so they are sideways and you can go close to the wind direction (but not directly). Then you cross the wind by turining the ship some degree to the other side and turning the sails to the other side too.

    It's hard to explain but easy when you see what I mean. Can I upload pictures here?!

    EDIT:

    Here an example:
    alt text

    This is interesting. I read a few websites about sailing, and I even found the optimal order in which I should change the angle of the sails in a galleon (or any ship with more than 1 sail) when crossing the wind. I wonder how much of this matters in the game, and if it even has any effect. For example, I'm not sure if the mainmast sails give more "thrust" to the ship than the foremast sail or if they are all equal, etc ...

    It would be great if a dev could tell us this kind of things.

  • A Cranky Eskimo
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    @inkar-agobi pretty sure the mainmast does give more thrust, but again with how simple the wind propulsion mechanics are I wouldn’t even call it thrust, more like angling the sails is a throttle to an engine, and the helm has power steering lol. I would love to see an improvement to wind personally.

  • Zagwitz
    Master
    Founder

    @dreifois said in Sailing against the wind ?! - Crossing the wind:

    @xdragon2781 we should summon here
    one of our fellow experts to talk about beating, my friend.
    It .IS. technically possible to sail against the wind (so downwind, right @zagwitz ?)

    Ooh i'm a resident expert now am I? It is possible to make progress into the wind but sailing directly into the wind in real life will put you in irons (that's bad). Making progress into a headwind requires a few things.

    • Tacking - Is the act of sailing you ship with a tight point of sail then turning the bow through the wind and doing the same that side. Effectively zig zagging upwind.

    • Different Sails - In Sea of Thieves we sail square rigged ships, these don't have as tight a point of sail when close hauled as a ship with a spinnaker sail would have for example.

    Hopefully that helps.

  • dreiFois
    Marauder
    Insider

    @zagwitz oh, yeah, you should have known better, before making those posts, now it's too late ;))

  • Penumbra Jack
    Marauder
    Insider

    Sailing is fun in the game, but maybe too player-friendly.

    I think sailing backward could be an interesting consequence. Imagine a chase between two ships heading into the wind. With the right sail angle, the lead ship could stop/reverse and drop behind their pursuer.

    Not to mention the option to sail backward coming to a shore so you're positioned for easy departure - Or sailing backward just for the lulz.

  • SoberGrub
    Insider

    @colonel-virus
    Aye....The shortest distance aint always the quickest. Tacking be the answer.

  • Flaming Jeckyll
    Marauder
    Insider

    It seems if the wind is directly in front you go just as fast as zig zag. I really would like more of a boost for generating wind gust. Would make it more interesting on chasing other ships.

  • boaton

    @xdragon2781 agreed, if they made the sails more responsive the wind could be tweaked closer to the real🤔

  • Capt Baguette

    @xDragon2781

    Interesting stuff, you tought me a few things, thank you.

    I get your point but Sea of Thieves is not a simulator though, as you point out^^.
    You said:

    In my opinion the sail physics of a pirate game should be more realistic than that what I've seen in the videos.

    My suggestion is: come try the game! The problem with crossing close hauled here is about game design: there are 2 types of ship, the bigger one is faster except against the wind, so the smaller one flees upwind... and is more manoeuvrable, that's it.

    @Jackal-Guardian has a VERY good point, sloops could more easily benefit from gusts due to manoeuvrability in that case, but I have a feeling that it would be tricky to balance nonetheless.

  • svetli97
    Seafarer

    I do think that the game shouldn't punish you for going straight into the wind since it is supposed to be playable by bad players as well but they should definitely make it more rewarding to use the sails the proper way. At the moment there is almost no point in wasting your time doing so if you have anything else at all to do.

  • CopeNhoggin

    But... can't the problem be solved by preventing yourself from travelling directly into the wind? There is no rule stating we have to go from A to B in a straight line, miss your objective on purpose and then backtrack WITH the wind, it's faster than the slow haul against the wind.

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