Removing Link Between Crew Size and Ship Type

  • Atraeus13
    Insider

    Has there been given a reason why 3 people couldn't shouldn't be able to set out on a Sloop? Or two people take on the challenge of running a Galleon?

    The way I think it should work is first you choose a ship. Then choose between private or matchmaking crew. If you choose match making you are either paired up with a 1 person if you choose Sloop as your ship or 3 people if you chose the Galleon. If you choose private crew, you have full control over your party. You could solo or invite up to 3 friends to join you on the ship you chose.

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  • Bartimaeu

    @atraeus13 You sir, have opened a can of worms with this question. Personally I don't see the problem with a 3-man sloop crew but there are many who disagree and say it is unbalanced.

  • Atraeus13
    Insider

    @bartimaeu I wonder why others would say its unbalanced. There is still only 1 cannon per side on the sloop.

  • Ironuzuka
    Master
    Insider

    @bartimaeu @Atraeus13 AHOY me lads.

    A fine discussion yer having, let me join in will ya ?

    I agree with you about the fish bait can!
    To those who disagree to having meself a party of 3 on me boat I say this:

    1 - A ship's size determines it's power.
    2 - Not the crew, that is sailing and using canons ...
    3 - Unless ship be under manned.
    4 - Sure the spawning system can be abuse, but it'll be fixed ?!?
    5 - Zavy ?

    So yeah, I doubt very much a crew of 3 could do a better job sailing and firing cannons than me lad and meself. I may be wrong... A can of worm it is then ....

  • ExplosiveBoby
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    With a sloop you can already have every single possible hole in the ship and be able to bucket out your ship with 2 players and never sink, so if you have a 3 person crew on a sloop you can be invincible and still be able to steer or shoot.

  • Ironuzuka
    Master
    Insider

    @explosiveboby said in Removing Link Between Crew Size and Ship Type:

    With a sloop you can already have every single possible hole in the ship and be able to bucket out your ship with 2 players and never sink, so if you have a 3 person crew on a sloop you can be invincible and still be able to steer or shoot.

    Surely yer crew are not invincible to canon balls or gun pebbles! And it's pretty small on a sloop. The splashing and smashing would get them when facing another crew. With good aim, good wits, and a distracted crew, one smaller can achieve much!

  • steele66
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    @atraeus13 I would say it could be overpowered because of the incredible manuverabilaty of the sloop. 2 people is hardly needed to work the thing. The third person would be very disposable. There's no reason player 3 couldn't constantly be shooting himself out of the cannon while the other 2 easily outmanuver larger ships. That said I would love to have a 3 man sloop lol.

  • ExplosiveBoby
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    @ironuzuka If you face the non ladder side to the galleon then you wont have to worry about the damage from cannon balls

  • Atraeus13
    Insider

    @steele66 Couldn't you say the same thing about a 4 man Galleon? That 1 person is expendable and just take risky moves in battle? If your saying the 4th man is vital to a Galleon, then what should a 3 man crew do?

  • ExplosiveBoby
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    Even with a 3 player sloop being invincible Joe neate did say on twitter that they plan on not having a barrier like you suggest so pretty sure you will be able to have a 3 or 4 person sloop and a 1 or 2 person galleon

  • steele66
    Master
    Insider
    Founder

    @atraeus13 I would say that a 3 man gallion is a weak gallion. They won't do as well as a 4 man that's for sure. 2 on sails one steering and one navigator is perfect. Only reason 3 man is an option is do people don't throw the 4th random in the brige.

  • ENF0RCER
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    @atraeus13 After actually being lucky enough in spending a few hours actualy 1 manning a galleon and 4 manning a sloop ill say this. It was definitely a fun and interesting challange 1 or 2 manning a galleon. Which by the way is totally doable and one i would like to be able to attempt agian and encourage others to try. However there is very good case that can be made that a 4 man sloop could be OP as it can open tactical options that would not be avialible other wise. I think the main issue thou is that this goes agianst Rare vision. They want to promote the 4 player co-op experiance were everybody has something they could be doing at all times. I suggested that we should be able to at least up and down grade our ships in-game if and when we find or lose player in the game instead of just leaving the game and restart macthmaking cause even when it works it can get frustrating get into a good server.

  • Lasikuu
    Founder

    The ships are designed so that you''ll never have a crew member available for every task at the same time. Having more than 2 people on the sloop would trivialize the already manageable task management aspect of the sloop; an extra crew member that could bail, repair and work the sails would make the sloop way too overpowered.
    The galleon is balanced much the same way for 4 crew members, e.g. raising the anchor takes longer with just one person, as well as working the sails.

    Don't see an issue handicapping yourself by using less than 4 people on the galleon the same way you can currently handicap yourself on the sloop by sailing solo.

  • MantonX2
    Marauder
    Founder

    I mostly have solo'd a sloop and been in a 4 man galleon crew. A couple times I've done a 2-man sloop. Unless they are totally incompetent, I don't see how you could ever sink a 3 or 4 man sloop.

    It'd either be complete incompetence or something weird like they had gunpowder barrels onboard that detonated, blowing out the hull and killing all 3 or 4 crewmembers at the same time. MAYBE that would do it.

  • Aprovoked Mango
    Insider
    Founder

    @explosiveboby said in Removing Link Between Crew Size and Ship Type:

    With a sloop you can already have every single possible hole in the ship and be able to bucket out your ship with 2 players and never sink, so if you have a 3 person crew on a sloop you can be invincible and still be able to steer or shoot.

    Basically this, its the same concept of how strong a Galleon is with 5+ crew. That said, pretty sure Rare already said you take your crew wherevere and have 4 on a sloop if you wish for a surprise attack.

    Im fine with it but I am also fully aware that it could be pretty broken but time will tell.

  • Cows n Muffins
    Master
    Founder

    @atraeus13 The reason the sloop is locked to 2 players max is because if there were any more people on it, the sloop would be unsinkable. There are not enough jobs to do on the sloop for 3 people, or 4 people, or 5 people, etc.

  • FirePDPanda
    Founder

    I do understand where you guys are coming from, a 4 man sloop would definitely be formidable in battle, but it would still lose to a galeon. All you have to do is keep hitting the sloop with 2 people on the cannons.

    The sloop is very small and there isnt a lot of space under deck, even if you put 2 people there fixing holes they would die from the damage. Same for above deck, if you hit the upper deck on a galeon, chances are you wont hit anyone. If you crammed 4 people in the sloop a cannon ball above deck is almost sure to hit someone, and those hurt.

  • UrbanTumbleweed
    Ship Mate

    What prevents crew combining to achieve any size crew? In most instances of the game I have played multiple crews have banded together on sloops and galleons to absolutely wreck smaller crews. Do you want to prevent this from happening? How do you propose to do so? Limiting the initial crew size is to generate parity across servers, ensuring an even distribution of players and preventing "mega guilds" from storming a single server. If a captain can enlist the aid of other crews to man their sloop and make it a "virtually" unsinkable ship so be it. Gather together your own crew or team up with another ship and out gun them. They will run out of boards, be killed and stuck on the ferry, or run out of bananas eventually and the boat will sink.

  • HC King Luis

    imo, it would be unbalanced.
    you have the capt sailing, you have one person on the guns, and the third man doing repairs. pretty much every position on the ship is covered and the layout of the ship helps this even more. only downside is you don't have 2 or more people on the guns that would could possibly have in a galleon.

  • FirePDPanda
    Founder

    @urbantumbleweed Those are only for people who are 100% focusing on PVP, remember even if you have 8 people on a ship, if they arent part of your 4-man cell they won't get rewards when you turn in treasure.

    A big group like that is may be really fun the first couple times you try it out but takes away the danger of losing, which is the best part of pvp (even if you die, you know you cant lose with 8 people). You probably won't see that much in the full version of the game as there will be a lot more to do.

  • UVG Reign
    Founder

    Forcing a crew size to a particular ship is one of the balance choices I love about this game and hope it stays.

    But yeah, a dedicated 3 man ship is needed to bridge the gap between duo sloop and fully manned galleon

  • Joe Krakatoa
    Commander
    Insider

    Crew capability is a factor. Four randoms on a galleon trying to figure things out could get thrashed by three or four highly motivated pirates in a sloop, even if they're just as new. So many variables, I can see why Rare is being cautious.

    We'll see what happens at launch.

  • Lasikuu
    Founder

    @firepdpanda
    If the sloop gets into a cannon vs. cannons fight with a galleon, then sure, it'll have a hard time. But if a sloop ends up in a situation like that, it means the crew does not know how to utilise the sloops strengths against a galleon.
    It's already very hard for a galleon to catch and fire upon a sloop if the sloop's crew know what they are doing, and that's with only two people, maybe even one if they're a good sailor.
    Add to that one or two crew members? As has been already mentioned, they'd trivialise the managing of the sloop to the point where you could have one member permanently on the cannon and another on the wheel. Or they could just keep on trying to board the enemy ship, as an example. Since the sloop is easy enough to handle with just two people, the additional crew members can focus on making life miserable for the galleon crew by trying to board repeatedly. Now the galleon crew need to manage everything on their ship, while keeping an eye on the enemy sloop, while being on the lookout for permanent boarders.

    @UrbanTumbleweed
    There's no need to prevent crews from joining together, since they are already handicapped from the fact that they can't share the rewards from any loot nor will the other crew spawn on the main crew's ship if they die. There's always the ever present chance of betrayal when multiple crews join together.

    Rare know exactly what they're going for: never enough members in a crew to do all the required tasks on a ship comfortably. This forces the crew to manage what they are doing and makes things more exciting when you encounter the unexpected and things go up ship creek without a paddle.
    More ship types with varying crew sizes would be cool to see. I'd like to see Rare add at least the 3-man ship, as well as some larger ships, like a man-o-war, with a lot of cannons and a larger crew, but a lot slower than any of the other ships.

  • Luci6396
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    The only good answer to the three man crew is to design a ship for 3 men specifically.

  • Leyvin
    Castaway
    Insider

    What silly arguments against more than 2 Crew on a Sloop.
    You know even on the Sloop, you carry a limited amount of Planks ... those aren't "Infinitely Deep" Barrels. With the limitations being 3:1 (Cannon Ball : Planks)., this is assuming no Ramming or Beaching occurs... you should always have more shot than repair capabilities.

    Because the Galleon doubles these limits, honestly that makes them more "Invincible" against Sloops... which they can't out-manoeuver but they can out-run due to them being substantially faster.

    •

    Now personally what I'd prefer to see would be for the Tavern to be used for recruitment. So when you first log-in you enter the Tavern (which could be a "Safe Zone" inside) where you have no equipment but a pocket full of Gold...

    There should be 4 Classes of Ship. Rowboat (1 + 1 / Loot Barrel), Sloop (1-2 man), Frigate (2-4 man), Galleon (3-6 man)... they could down the line introduce different variants of these; say like a War or Merchant variation as part of the Ship Upgrade / Customisation to better suit what you (and your crew) prefer to engage in.

    (For the Larger Ships, 1-2 Rowboats could be added for traveling to and from islands)

    How they can balance the Crews is simple... Loot Shares.
    Where Gold per Crewmen is merely divided by the Number of Crew, on top of this though the Unlock Costs could also be increased respectively. Plus the Unique Treasures (such-as the Voodoo Skulls) could only benefit a single crewmen, thus add a little tension to who gets to hand it in for the reward / unlock.

  • ExplosiveBoby
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    @leyvin The larger sloop crews are invincible because with as many holes possible they can bucket the water out of their ship and still be able to move and shoot, not because they can keep on covering the holes with planks so they stop filling up, they literally dont need any planks to never sink

  • Leyvin
    Castaway
    Insider

    @explosiveboby ... nonsense. We had 7 on a Single Sloop during the Closed Beta and were unable to keep pace with bailing once Damage reached Critical., it's just not possible.

    Still let's say you're right, and that is possible.
    Simply adding Player Collision would instantly resolve this, as there's only really the room for 2 maybe 3 people to efficiently bail the hull.

    I mean regardless if there are game mechanics to allow larger crews or not., players will do this. Analysing the potential exploit and removing that would end up eliminating the argument altogether.

    With this said, as I noted they will still be Out-run by the Galleon and have to be better at Navigating than another Sloop to avoid being Boarded... do that with a Gunpowder Barrel and that's an easy Multi-Kill, even if you're sacrificing yourself in the process the rest of your crew will be able to capitalise or if you're on your own the respawn time is longer than it takes to sink from max damage.

  • ExplosiveBoby
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    @leyvin I have tested the bailing multiple times and have done it solo before but I wanted to give other people the benefit of the doubt and assume they do it with 2 ppl, you could suicide them and let your crew clean up when you have a crew but not when solo

  • Luci6396
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    Seems like it takes longer to repair the galleon than the sloop too. Gota go down more stairs, search multiple floors that are all much longer than sloop for holes and bailing takes longer too

  • Keplinstine
    Seafarer

    @steele66 yep

  • MantonX2
    Marauder
    Founder

    I just don't see how a galleon puts that much damage on a 3 or 4 man sloop to even get to a point where it'd be at catastrophic failure unless, like I said, they're incompetent. That or just fighting without regard for the fun of it.

    With a sloop, you need to be mindful of only 2 things and a galleon should never even catch you. Wind direction and edge of map. I've toyed with galleons while solo just so i could watch them finally get tired of trying to close the gap and then give up and sail away. Even on a passing maneuver, they shouldn't get much damage on you.

    Can you imagine a galleon trying to catch a 4-man sloop that could basically turn upwind and then have 2-3 crewmembers jump in the water and grab onto the Galleon as it passes; over and over?

  • Too Much Space

    It should be up to the players what combo they wanna play with. If you wanna have 4 man on a sloop then so be it. If you wanna sail alone on a galleon, then set sails and good luck lol. If your worried about other teams being to good or strong then your afraid of challenges. Its how a crew will work together that will make it or break it. They will have to change the pirate good to include that everyone play fair and let others win sometimes(cause thats how it works in the real world).

    March 20th woot woot

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