Unplayable

  • Hi guys.

    First, thank you for this amzing game on wich i played hundred of hours.

    Secondly. I'm sad on how the game is evolving. It's not possible to play anymore. We can't fight, everybody runs. It's a pirate game, but we can't do pirate things. We changed server 4 times to try to find someone to sink his ship and take their treasures. Impossible. So how is it possible that with a bigger ship we can go faster than a sloop ? Why is the sloop so cheated ?
    Do you watch any streamers ? Lot of them are complaining about that.
    Also how is it possible that sometimes you hit mutiple times a guy with a sword and he doesn't die ?

    The game is not balanced anymore, and the fun is going away. Always the same problems since years, and nothing is done about that ...

    This is pretty sad, it's like if you guys abandonned trying to balance the game.

    Have a good day.

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  • @terrific83 said in Unplayable:

    So how is it possible that with a bigger ship we can go faster than a sloop ? Why is the sloop so cheated ?

    Depends on the direction of the wind.

    The game is not balanced anymore

    You complain about balance but want to be always faster than smaller ships ?

  • So how is it possible that with a bigger ship we can go faster than a sloop ? Why is the sloop so cheated ?

    Lots of contradictions here.

    Please clarify. Are you in a sloop chasing bigger ships or in a bigger ship chasing sloops? This statement above seems to lament the fact that a sloop can't get away when you are complaining about the opposite.

  • Why does the ship with 7 sails go faster than the ship with one sail? Truly a mystery of modern science.

    Out of the things to complain about in this game, I have never once heard anyone saying they wish a sloop could outrun a galleon.

    Hitreg is annoying, it affects literally everything.

    The game is only feeling more unbalanced because at its core they have made a system which struggles to be accurate the more they add to it.

  • @terrific83

    It's not possible to play anymore.

    I got 3600 hours in the game and still counting, sure there are lots of cheaters and there are lots of toxicity in the game but I think 'unplayable' is an overstatement, if something is preventing you from launching the game or if you have a detrimental performance issue due to specs, that might be 'unplayable'.

    We can't fight, everybody runs.

    This might hurt bad, but try hourglass! Its the hourglass on the captains desk where you could vote to dive underwater in search of a PVP match, enemies are not allowed (or at least not as much as high seas) to run away from a small circle and only 1 ship may live.

    So how is it possible that with a bigger ship we can go faster than a sloop ?

    This is a little more complicated than this, but a general rule of thumb:

    Galleon is fastest with wind, sloop is fastest against wind, while brigantine is fastest when winds are blowing to the side and sales aligned. All ship type goes fastest against wind with sails on the side.

    Also how is it possible that sometimes you hit mutiple times a guy with a sword and he doesn't die ?

    Correct me if I am wrong, but if my memory stands the stats are as follows:

    Sword swipe deals 25 dmg each, 4 to kill, while sword lunge deals 60.

    Pistols deal 50 dmg.

    Snipers 70 dmg

    Blunderbuss 10 dmg for each pellet, 9 pellets in total.

    Twin-barrel pistol 45 dmg each shot (?)

    No clue about the others.

    The game is not balanced anymore, and the fun is going away. Always the same problems since years, and nothing is done about that ...

    You will have to elaborate on your issues a little further, how is the sword not balanced? How is the sloop unplayable? What are the problems you are referring to?

    The sloop is not meant to stand on equal grounds with the galleon due to crew size, but they are provided with great maneuver. Swords are not meant to kill the opponent in 1 shot, nothing is supposed to kill in one shot. If you are feeling gameplay is boring because you can't find ships to sink, try learning hourglass, that would open up thousands of hours of content for you provided you don't give up instantly.

    Have a nice day.

  • You just listened a lot of things. Many players complain about that happens to them. Being chased, being sunk, losing treasures of hours collected.

    It weird to see a post like this. :o
    If you want to sink ship, hourglass.
    If you want loot to steal, monitor world events or collect loot and defend it.

    Idk how the game isn’t unplayable when things aren’t happening. I think you mean “game is boring do you” as your still able to play just not a lot of player engagement

  • First, i wanted to write "how is it possible that with a briguantine we CAN'T go faster than a sloop.

    For you guys that tells me to use the wind ... Thank you, we were at all time adjusting sails.

    For you guys that tells me that a sword need 4 hit, thank you, i know this. Sometimes you have to hit way more than that. And regularly i get OS by blunders when full HP.

    For you guys that tell me to go to hourglass, nah, i don't like it. Stop speaking like i don't know what it is, i told you i have hundred of hours, please.

    But with your answers, i know now why this game is full of toxicity now.

    And no, i mean it's unplayable as it was before when the game was fun.
    You guys don't get the essence of it, and complaining about my post because you think you are better, is not gonna help having a balanced game when devs are gonna read this.

  • For you guys that tell me to go to hourglass, nah, i don't like it. Stop speaking like i don't know what it is, i told you i have hundred of hours, please.

    Well, a lot of people who say they play ### hours still find things they never knew. And you act like you wanna PvP and tired of Runners...chasing...So there your alternative. PvP on Demand.

    But with your answers, i know now why this game is full of toxicity now.

    Because its Online video game and since the first MMO, there always "toxic" gamers. Nothing new.

    And no, i mean it's unplayable as it was before when the game was fun.

    You make your own fun. That the joy of SoT, you dont have to follow a set of guides, do the meta or whatever kids do these days and complain because its not doing what I want to happen.
    Since D1, since the day I started playing...I havnt had a single day where things went according to plan, that the thrill of it. Each session should be different, unexpected, and I create my own fun. If it be chased or chasing, I blow my own ship up or not allow some kids have my treasures by means.

    You guys don't get the essence of it, and complaining about my post because you think you are better, is not gonna help having a balanced game when devs are gonna read this.

    Game still fun, you just expect others to do what you want. So far, the only one who appears to think they are better or least know whats good for the game (like many before you) is...You.
    Game is Balanced enough. The only ones who complain are those who still havnt fully grasped it. Adapt to it. Those kids, are always the ones who claim to know better. Or those who think ## of hours played makes them Vets. :p

    Just. Create your Fun.

  • @terrific83 said in Unplayable:

    First, i wanted to write "how is it possible that with a briguantine we CAN'T go faster than a sloop.

    I thought as much

    For you guys that tells me to use the wind ... Thank you, we were at all time adjusting sails.

    That's good - doesn't mean your brigantine is always faster than the sloop(s) you were chasing.

    as
    @oo-atuo-oo said in Unplayable:

    This is a little more complicated than this, but a general rule of thumb:

    Galleon is fastest with wind, sloop is fastest against wind, while brigantine is fastest when winds are blowing to the side and sales aligned. All ship type goes fastest against wind with sails on the side.

    The sloop probably saw you coming and went (straight) against the wind, sails to the side and thus gaining distance from you.
    Try a different approach next time ...

    The days that a brigantine was in all winds faster than a sloop are in the past, it took them some time but they changed this (unintended) imbalance some time ago.

    Also, currently you can find the Horn of Fair Winds in a lot of places, when used appropiately, it can give a speed boost as well.

  • @terrific83

    First, i wanted to write "how is it possible that with a briguantine we CAN'T go faster than a sloop.

    Thanks for clarifying!

    In a word you were outplayed by a smaller ship. That's a skill issue.
    A brigantine will ALWAYS catch a smaller ship as long as you have the patience and skill. You seemed to be lacking in one or both of these.

    The map is not infinite so the runner will need to change direction. You should be cutting the corner rather than following their track. A skilled runner will attempt to use islands to minimise the corner that can be cut.

    Wind direction will change so at stages you can catch up when the wind is favourable.

    There are Cannons Of Rage that can be used to launch boarders forward and the devilish Grappling Gun fromage to make the boarding meta easier. Even without a Cannon Of Rage your regular cannons are going to be at an angle to launch boarders at points.

    The introduction of more plentiful Horns of Fair Winds makes the job harder potentially - but a player cannot be criticised for PLANNING AHEAD and staying on a server to retain the Horns.
    If I was them I would also have a Black Keg so I could KABOOM you.
    Try collecting Horns yourself rather than server hopping.

    You seem to be complaining about the game not being balanced when you have evidenced the exact opposite!

    You were chasing a smaller ship and they got away - sounds balanced to me.

    Try fighting bigger ships or ships your own size. Or perhaps you are intimidated by a truly balanced fight.

  • @terrific83
    I can guarantee you aren't getting one shot by the blunderbuss at full hp, not even hackers can do that. What is happening is you're getting hit by two players at the same time, or a cannon splash and gun, or most likely you're just not noticing the missing 10% in the heat of the battle.

  • Guys, the wau you write and speak like i don't know all this makes me laugh :)

    I don't lack skills, or experience, i'm not the best at the game, but still good, [mod edit] anyway, it's not even the question.

    @araluen-85 I can guarantee you i was OS yesterday by a plunder, the guy was alone and i was full HP.

    @pc-monkfish Yeah i try to fight bigger ship, in one week i saw only one galleon.

    I know play on Asian servers and people don't run, way better and way much funnier than playing with guys like you.

    [mod edit]

  • @terrific83 Your post has been edited as it goes against the Forum Rules and Pirate Code.

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  • @terrific83

    I don't lack skills, or experience, i'm not the best at the game, but still good,

    Glad you are amused but if sloops are outrunning you , you are lacking....something.

    Maybe time for some self reflection and learning rather than claiming the game is unbalanced or unplayable.

  • I mean...a lot of folks on the seas dont want pvp anymore. Maybe not most, I honestly don't know but I always assumed as the pvp folks relentlessly sank every ship they saw no matter who or what they were doing, that more and more people would want changes to SS to make it viable and eventually private servers just like GTA did. Low and behold that's what's happening. Toxic pvp folks ruined it for everyone lol

  • I don't lack skills, or experience, i'm not the best at the game, but still good

    Ok so. What is the problem than? You don’t lack the know or how. But some reason you still can’t grasp the issue? And that makes this game unplayable?

  • @terrific83
    People are responding as if you don't understand the game's mechanics, becuase everything you've said so far screams 'I don't understand the game's mechanics'. Sloops are the fastest into the wind, there are no one shots, people eat food when you aren't looking, these are the mechanics that new players miss all the time.

  • I think what you're trying to say is you don't like hourglass PvP, but you like the chaos of adventure PvP. Right? And you don't like it when what you think will be adventure PvP turns into someone running without even making contact.

    I agree, hourglass is not at all the same PvP as adventure, it has entirely different goals. Hearing someone say "go play hourglass" is like like being told to "go play safer seas" but worse imo.
    (SS is missing other players, a couple events, some commendations, more gold and rep, and restricts maximum level. While hourglass is missing literally anything that isn't on a ship of the same size you sail on and inside the circle. Hourglass also has a bunch of stupid rules which take away from the sandbox, just like safer seas.)

    Not liking hourglass but liking PvP is valid. Hourglass is a repetitive and calculated tug of war. This isn't a bad thing, but it's nowhere near as diverse as adventure PvP.
    hourglass is PvP boiled down with very little spices, There is very little uncertainty. It still tastes good, and exactly how I thought it would, but I'd rather have the diverse meals that adventure has with it's unique flavors, textures, and spices within more unique locations than just the same open oceans.

    Honestly the game was never balanced. Sea of Thieves has always been unfair, and attempting to over come things when odds are against you is very fun, even when you fail. (Well, I think its fun, most don't or something) Realistically, and practically, A big ship of bad skill and knowledge can still equal a small ship of good skill and knowledge. It just makes sense. A solo would have to be more than 4x better and 4x smarter than any galleon they come across to win. Which is hard because most people aren't usually bad enough at the game where the skill ceiling is more than 4x higher than their skill relative to the skill floor.
    I like thinking of these unfair situations as things to be conquered. I challenge myself and have fun losing.
    If your mindset is that of improvement and having fun, thing will be more fun.

    But yes, running completely circumvents these skill floors and ceilings by being as tall and strong as a puddle sitting on exposed circuitry. It's too easy to run, and allows players with like an hour of engaging running experience (which accounts for less than 10% of the total time spent running) To run better than the best player can chase. This encourages players to learn to run because it's much easier than learning to fight. This sucks because most runners don't like running, and all chasers hate chasing, which leads to a worse gaming experience for all involved. Running gives an insane advantage over chasing.

    The cannon of rage was designed to fix this, but all things considered it barely does anything more than what turning 80 degrees and then shooting out gives you. Plus it's not something everyone can do because not everyone will have a cannon of rage on board.
    The best solution to this I've heard is to add a slipstream mechanic. This would force the chaser to follow the runners path perfectly to catch up, which gives the runner more control over where the chaser will be, while giving the chaser the ability to catch up in a reasonable time frame.
    The other solution to this, a solution I personally loved, was crud-launch. This didn't make catching up possible, but It did make front boarding possible which would let you lower the enemy's anchor. It also allowed for more fun movement. Sadly it's an exploit and half the people who actually read this whole yap now think I'm evil because I liked an exploit which genuinely made the game more fun.

  • @captainshelf7 You could always....not chase... someone that is clearly not interested 🤯.

    No one owes you a fight. If people are truly looking for a 'fair' fight, chasing someone (who clearly doesn't want/is unable to fight) for ages seems like an issue with the chaser rather than the person being chased.

  • @look-behind-you Look Look, if I wanna PvP but not in hourglass, I'm gonna take any PvP I can get. Especially if I know they can fight back. Or, let's say they have something I want. Maybe I was doing something and a crew yoinked something from under my nose. In this scenario, the crew definitely doesn't want me to chase them, but obviously I'm going to chase because I wanted that loot. Here, I'm going to make a scale, and draw a couple lines:

    This is sorted from "Really shouldn't be running/High value" to "I shouldn't chase this crew/Low value"
    I'm also adding lines that describe my opinion when/if I'll chase them or for how long

    ------------🔽-I will chase them.-🔽--------
    My opponent in hourglass
    3 ritual Burning blade running
    Grade 5 Guild emissary
    Grade 5 Reaper emissary
    The crew is larger than mine and stole from my ship
    The crew stole something substantial from my ship
    The crew grabbed loot from something I was doing
    The crew grabbed loot from something I was going to do
    The crew has loot from a world event
    The crew has loot from a voyage that shows on the map
    I know the crew can fight
    The crew has a huge stack
    The crew has a grade 5 emissary
    Crew is doing the newest thing in the game
    The crew attacked me but I scared them away
    Crew said slurs or was just toxic in general

    ------------🔽-I will chase until I get bored of their nonsense-🔽--------
    Crew says: "You are what is wrong with this game!!"
    The crew is the definition of mistaken
    Crew seemed offended by the fact I sailed up to them, despite me not doing anything or signaling my intention
    Crew keeps saying "Stop chasing us" in an funny/annoying way
    The crew seems fun to mess with

    ------------🔽-I will chase, but not for over an hour-🔽--------
    Crew says "Stop chasing us"
    I have the reaper emissary raised
    The crew has an emissary
    The crew is doing a voyage
    The crew is
    The crew
    The
    Crew exists
    Just because

    ------------🔽-Probably not going to chase because I'd rather do something else.-🔽--------
    Crew doesn't run, doesn't fight, and is genuinely chill
    Crew has very little loot, and isn't fun to mess with.
    I'm bored by them
    Some random player I just helped

    ------------🔽-Not going to chase-🔽-----------------
    (not putting anything here because how am I supposed to know if I should chase someone unless I chase them first?

    In my opinion this is a fairly smooth gradient of most types of runners and situations. All of these crews don't want me to chase them, but of course I will (and surely you will for at least a couple) because Sea of thieves is a sandbox game. To blame chasers is just as bad as blaming runners. Running as a concept is a problem, not the runners themselves. I think the runner mindset sucks and is actually harmful to those who have it. It's a mindset based on avoiding problems, never improving, and an unwillingness to face fears. I do run, sometimes its the best option and makes sense, like if I stole a high value target of course I'm going to run to the turn in, but when running is the only solution a player will ever consider, they can't improve at anything. It's like using ChatGPT to do everything for you. At first its a neat tool that helps in a pinch, but now some people instantly open AI without thinking on their own so it can do most if not all the thinking for them. (I've seen people open it just to ask something as simple as "What is the word for the length between wave peaks?" {It's wavelength} And they don't even remember the answer after jotting it down and end up asking the same question again later.) The worst part is for the questions where there is something that leads to an answer (such as in math) and they don't even try to figure out how to do it despite being spoon fed the answer and the method to get the answer. I feel like they would have more fun if they actually understood what they were doing, but instead they just end up becoming a copy paste paraphrase-er of a paraphrase-er. Don't hate the player, hate the game. (I love sot, it has problems though) Whether it's the ease of running, or the ease of AI, the systems that allow people to skip learning are to blame.

    In the end I kinda went off the rails, but I still feel like it is a somewhat valid comparison. On numerous occasions people have ran and then when I finally caught up to them, lowered the anchor and mast, and asked them "why u running" without even killing them, some didn't even know why they ran, they didn't run to keep any loot (because they didn't have any), they didn't run to spite me, they ran because impulse said it was the only option.

    Anyway, could you reply where you draw these lines and maybe even how you would order this list? I'm genuinely curious. (just copy paste the whole list and switch it around or whatever)

  • @captainshelf7 isn't "Why are you chasing?" an equally valid question?

    Yes, I have chased and I have been chased, both equally valid in the sandbox environment, but chases only last as long as the person chooses to continue the chase (barring being caught obviously) so you can't blame the chased any more than you can blame the chaser!

    At certain points....you have to give up, and that is possibly part of the problem. People don't WANT to give up due to ego or whatever.

    I have happily let someone chase me for 45 mins or more....with an empty ship....before letting it sail to the Shores of Gold whilst waving at them from Marauders....sure they didn't know I didn't have anything worth taking but they wasted their own time that could have been better spent looking literally anywhere else!

    Each to their own, sandbox init! 🤷‍♀️

  • @look-behind-you Making someone who seems to delight in running for no reason question why they just ran away for 45 minutes rather than just scuttling or god forbid fight it out because who cares if you sink makes me a little happier. I've always found it interesting how players who would rather run than risk sinking without any loot like to turn around and pretend that its our "egos" for enjoying the chase and not their pure spite at the audacious idea we would want to sink them in the pirate game.

  • @itzeggward How is letting someone chase "for no reason"?

    The reason is...not wanting to fight. Which honestly should have been obvious after the first 10/15 minutes.......

    If someone is willing to chase me and my empty ship for 45+ mins while I outsail them.... 🤷‍♀️certainly not a me problem.

  • @captainshelf7

    It's too easy to run, and allows players with like an hour of engaging running experience (which accounts for less than 10% of the total time spent running) To run better than the best player can chase.

    I don't think this is the case. A decent chaser in the same boat would generally catch up due to changes in wind, the inevitable need to change direction, PvE intervention and sending out boarders. (if solo why even bother to chase?)

    A chaser in a LARGER ship will definitely catch a runner despite what the OP thinks.

    Granted copious Horn Of Fair Winds availability and black kegs has changed the dynamic somewhat but not slavishly following the track of the runner is a good defence for keg plays.

    I run cos I'm solo and boarding meta skews the playing field too much - especially with grappling gun fromage.

    Can be fun trying to get fort plays and sovereign harpoon on an unaware chaser, even with an empty ship frustrating the chaser, mild trolling, shouts of 'KETCHUP' IS the juice.

  • the thing is the only game balancing they did was before the game came out years ago. they did a few changes after. like when refilling ammo on the ship we would accidentally open the weapon locker because it was directly above the ammo. this would get us killed. so they shifter the ammo over. when trying to climb the crows nest we would hit the bell cause it was on the side of the mast. so they moved it to the front.

    it wasnt till 7 years later they tried to actually rebalance stuff..... that is after adding the silly weapon draw delay about a year in which RUINED THE GAME... then quick draw tactics became well known so everyone was using them and Rare ignored it for like 5 years creating an imbalance of people with the knowledge and with those who were either new or didnt like how it felt using the exploits.

    and after many smart suggestions on how to fix the 2 tap cheap death situation here we are all this time later and they are still taking the worse choice and just reducing the animation time rather than rebalancing the whole game.

  • @pc-monkfish It's true, wind changes and the need to change direction usually only detriment the runner, however PvE intervention can affect the chaser just as much. That's usually how I sink to runners, they run, a PvE spawns on me while im being too aggressive, they backboard, and then I throw or something leading to me sinking. Chasers have to not only be close enough, but also have an angle to successfully board. Getting this angle is a huge risk for the chaser, for if it doesn't yield then the chaser loses a lot of ground. The runner, on the other hand, can board as many times as they like with near zero risk, and can even bring tools such as kegs.

    If I'm solo, ill chase solos and anyone who runs. Cause why not? I'll probably lose, but I'll still improve or learn something either way. Chasing as a solo is usually the reason I sink when I'm the chaser.

    If the runner only faces away then yes, the larger ship will catch up. If the runner goes against wind, the larger ship will lose some ground, but still catch up eventually. If the runner sails against wind, and does tricks such as sailing into the storm / fog, weaving around rocks, sailing past forts, and using kegs, they can completely escape from the larger ship as long as they aren't marked on the map. As a solo, I've escaped while running numerous times against experienced players by using these tactics despite them being on a larger ship. Because yeah, running gives me a huge advantage over them and I'm not afraid to say it. If running is seriously the only option because the enemy crew are beyond lethal and outnumber me, I'll take it.

    If the larger ship is the one running, not all of these tactics are viable, BUT some of them (backboard, forts, and keg plays) are A LOT more viable due to the increased crew advantage.

    The horn of fair winds helps both sides, so all it has done is made it so whichever crew has one will have a very one-sided chase. The kegs though, only ever help the runner. Saying the chaser shouldn't follow perfectly behind is wrong, because they HAVE to directly follow the runner or else they'll fall behind. You have to cut corners / sail straight to them or else its impossible to catch up. The runner being forced to turn sometimes is what allows chasers to cut corners without punishment.

    Chasers have to play perfectly or else they lose a ton of ground. All it takes is for the runner to get out of sight, de-mast the chaser by sailing past a fort, de-mast them with a keg, or just swim and lower the anchor. All of these things the runner can do with infinite attempts. (It's harder for a solo since they have to plan ahead, but running still gives an advantage in every way)

    The thing is though, most runners don't even do this somewhat engaging stuff! Wanna know why? Because these tricks go against the philosophy of most runners. Most runners don't want to think, they want the easy way out, even if it doesn't work long term. In my experience chasing, they never backboard, and all they do is face away in the wind and sit idle on their boat. These tricks don't ever get thought up by the average runner and most runners only discover them because they are scrolling shorts while running.

    I get that you are defending runners, because you run. I run too. But please, when people say "runners" they don't mean the players who run like you or me, or the runners who run purely because they want to frustrate the person chasing. People such as me, terrfic, say "runners", to point out the long standing meta that rewards people who are bad at the game to run first, and not think later. The problem is the fact that new players will learn to turn away and leave without learning anything else. So they never learn to repel boarders, or what to do when under pressure. Since they never learn these crucial things, and running seems to always work at least a short while, they just run without ever learning a thing.

    MACHINE LEARNING EXAMPLE
    It's like how machine learning can put itself on a small peak by taking the path that rewards the most. In SoT's case, the rewards would be as follows: doing voyages (which gives some points), staying alive(which gives a little bit of points), Loot sold (gets a huge amount of points) and sinking(which deducts a lot of points). If this machine learned to run, it could run forever and get infinite "staying alive" points. If the machine gets efficient, it will also get some voyage, and some loot points. If instead though, the machine tried to fight, it would initially do far worse than the machine who runs. BUT, it will begin to get better and better at fighting and starts winning more often. Winning also has the chance to give extra Loot. Eventually, this machine will NEVER lose fights. Thus, it would always get "staying alive" points, A LOT of "voyage points" since it barely spends much time fighting, and even more "Loot sold" from doing extra voyages and winning battles. which in the end, leads to a lot more points total over the machines who only run.
    This example kinda sucks though, because it assumes most runners are trying to learn.

    Another thing with total honesty, If the person I'm chasing/running from actually does these all these tricks and doesn't have anything of value on board/still is almost able to catch up, I'll probably just target the next ship we happen to sail past, or leave once I get bored/dive to a different server, concede, or just leave. If the chase is going to last forever, (which rarely happens) I'm giving up. Personally, I don't want to play in a stalemate. Most games, such as the game that invented the term stalemate (I think), use it as an ending. If you are losing, and manage to force a stalemate that's not failure, and is usually indicative of near equal skill. In some other games, a stalemate or tie is also indicative of near equal skill. A stalemate In SoT though, is not only not an ending, but isn't even indicative of near equal skill because it's far easier to run than to chase. In a game where there is no ending, such as SoT, a stalemate is a bad outcome that only wastes time. Which makes running bad, because running is the easiest way to force a stalemate if you are good at it, or at least prolong the inevitable if you suck at running in this game.

    This is what I think about the PvP/game-play side of running. I did neglect to mention the interaction, and emotional / "moral" sides of it, but those were not part of your retort, so I didn't mention them.

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