Been grinding hourglass and the matches are so inconsitent. Its either people that only pvp or easy players. There surely is a better way to matchmake than what they currently have, losing several games in a row isn't fun, especially for newer players who just want to try it. Its going to end up like arena 2.0 the way they have it currently set as i think a lot of people have just given up with it because of how unbalanced it is, seem to be facing the same people every day, so something needs to be done to get more people into it otherwise it will just disappear like arena again
Is hourglass worse than arena?
@cptfatsparow594 it’s not a case of better matchmaking, it’s availability of players. If people aren’t queuing, then it’s going to give you who it can find, and if that’s people who live in Hourglass, then that’s who you’re fighting. What Rare have to do is offer incentives for playing other than just the curses. Their Fight Night introduced last year was very well received and is constantly asked for to come back and I agree it should.
Arena served people that want/enjoy contrived combat better.
Whether experienced or casual it's not difficult to find people that enjoyed arena.
Very few people are gonna have much nice to say about HG at the experienced or casual level.
People played arena for fun even after the rewards.
People can't wait to quit HG after they reach their goals.
Arena at its worst was more fun than HG at its best.
Arena as content was never openly and clearly driving players out of the game because of a fomo nightmare. Hg has the entire time.
I played arena when a lot of arena drama was going down and I didn't know anything about it at the time, that's how arena was, the drama was just the social sot scene. HG mentality has spread across the seas, even in adventure play outside of social media. Weird made up HG rules, weird HG spite plays, weird hg metas, etc etc.
Arena had tdmers that took over forts. Not great for the content but far from the issues HG has led people into.
To be clear, I don't blame this on players, I entirely blame this on the extreme fomo design and lack of serious HG maintenance for 2+ years. For both casual and experienced players.
@xdragonman15558 said in Is hourglass worse than arena?:
Idk never got to play 😭😭
When you end up in a fun multi-ship battle on a server over a fort. That's pretty close to what a decent arena match was except a lot more fun at the end because of music and a scoring/time system.
It was a different time in SoT too though, not everyone was on the same page but people were generally in the same book. SoT now has so many types of play/preferences that are far outside of the original design and intent that it makes arena look like a party around a campfire.
@wolfmanbush I'm not blaming players at all some are just better than others, thats to be expected, i think if they put the curses around arena instead of adding hourglass it would of got a lot more people into it and it would of built back up. Right now it seems most people in hourglass are the same groups, certain times of day are ok, guessing because the kids are off at the moment, but it is actually awful to play and grind, if i was still a kid i would of given up by now but i want the curse and really don't care about win loss, but its getting very unenjoyable and more of a full time job
@cptfatsparow594 said in Is hourglass worse than arena?:
@wolfmanbush I'm not blaming players at all some are just better than others, thats to be expected, i think if they put the curses around arena instead of adding hourglass it would of got a lot more people into it and it would of built back up. Right now it seems most people in hourglass are the same groups, certain times of day are ok, guessing because the kids are off at the moment, but it is actually awful to play and grind, if i was still a kid i would of given up by now but i want the curse and really don't care about win loss, but its getting very unenjoyable and more of a full time job
At this point nobody should play it for rewards. Only if a person enjoys it.
It has been so neglected and players have been subjected to such a long stretch of unpleasant fomo that nobody should really be investing in hope until actions/change backs it up.
Literally every serious live service game with pvp matches offers a better experience than what people go through in HG.
These forums are full of posts over 2 years of time that clearly show what that HG grind is doing to people. Until the conditions are improved I think people should consider sticking to adventure play or competing in a different game, where it's not so disheartening to just have a pvp match in a game.
That depends on who youre asking.
I personally like the Arena more because all out war on a server is way more fun then a 1vs1.
Plus you didnt have to get supplies and you dont need to get streaks, so you couldnt loose anything while playing arena.
With that it was also more new player friendly.
It was also way less time consuming, as one arena round took 15 minutes.@wolfmanbush said in Is hourglass worse than arena?:
Very few people are gonna have much nice to say about HG at the experienced or casual level.
Unbelievably true.
If hourglass went away today, people would be begging for a new way to get the associated cosmetics. Players would almost entirely not be begging for hourglass itself to return. We certainly wouldn't see repeated threads on here of people wanting the content itself back. Just the cosmetics.
People played arena for fun even after the rewards.
People can't wait to quit HG after they reach their goals.
Arena at its worst was more fun than HG at its best.
Three truest lines on the comparison ever.
To be clear, I don't blame this on players, I entirely blame this on the extreme fomo design and lack of serious HG maintenance for 2+ years. For both casual and experienced players.
HG was half baked from the onset and has remained as such since it launched. It truly could be something great. Sadly, without a massive amount of attention, it will continue to be hate-play content for the overwhelming majority of the playerbase.
**I would say it's worse, and not even close **
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Sinking and having to re-dive for PvP in Hourglass is a massive time sink which breaks the PvP only session in half. I mentioned this countless times but the Hourglass Issue hands down is the core gameplay loop. AKA for newer players that want to train at PvP and get the cosmetics, you spend more time sinking/spawning and diving then actual PvP'ing, that's a massive issue. I've sailed with new players all the time, and they give up after a sink or two in a row. Because it's a hassle the down time and very very demotivating...
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Comparison to Arena, where you sink, you got back in the action in less then a minute flat. Can't do that in Hourglass, that 1 minute spent sunk is on the death screen, tavern spawn... Losing in arena stung way less then it does in Hourglass. It also respected your time more (Core gameplay loop). In HG if I lost, I don't even know i'f ill be bothered to re-dive, or let alone my friend would just mentally give up and call it a day while I want to continue playing, that sucks. Hard.
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A Games were 15 min long no matter what:
Quick short bursts of gameplay was nice. You were losing? Ok you had 10 minutes left to goof off or train a certain skill, work on a commendation, instead of trying to take the re-win. (Although 10 minutes was plenty of time to get the Victory back outside if you were facing against NAL competitive crews)....
3... B It had it's own community and ''eco-system'' if you will, Hourglass doesn't have the sese of ''camaraderie'' The lobby was a big part, even when they patched out hot mics in an update you could still send msgs to players that you frequented to play with. That's what I miss the most.
Tangent: RARE claims to care about communities so much yet did everything in their power to brush the Arena/Competitive one under the rug as if it was some monstrous mistake.BY THE WAY RARE hosted in person Arena tournaments before Covid hit and that all ended, so don't you think for one minute that the game was ''never competitive'' it was, players who say otherwise, well RARE did a damn good job at hiding it as mentioned...
Also let's not forget the NAL/SoC sails in game which was proof of that to...-
Just like Point 1 of the Hourglass lack of gameplay loop, the Supplies were fixed and in abundance. Fair playing ground. It didn't involve a bunch of RNG that HG does. Ok some players prefer random factors in HG, I don't mind it but if I could choose, I would choose the former, not the latter.
-
Rose tinted glasses away, it had it's issues of lack of updates: We don't talk about how that killed Arena slowly then the Devs pounced on that to gaslight the low player numbers as the reason to remove it, and also targeting ''toxicity'' as the big focus which I found was disgusting on their part putting us all in the same basket, public perception wise... Definitely not the month long bugs such as the chest beacon being heavily bugged... Hourglass had a lot of bugs, which could of been fixed. The dream and vision for the gamemode was there, they just never bothered to expand on it.
-
Arena probably will never come back. Ever, and if it does RARE loses massive credibility in their words for stating it will never come back just to lie and do a 180, that also includes all the Community managers/mods that say the same. You won't take their words seriously anymore after the massive double downing...
@IX Indi XI and his friends are making an Arena remake game called ''Broadside'' which judging off the video I saw, seems to share and be built off the Arena foundation in Unreal Engine 5.5 which is what we want in the first place. Still in development it looks really promising and the only game I'm waiting for at this point in the pirate - arcade shooter genre.
Leave the Arena behind as history and embrace whats to come is my opinion. Hourglass is massively boring with the same meta that has been present for 2 years now.
Lack of community potential, Guilds are left in the crevice as clout clan rather then a community building mechanic. BORING.Bonus: This is more a fun conspiracy, but I truly believe they killed Arena in order to live out a Devs dream that was Hourglass long before it. Obviously you can't have bother PvP mods co-existing. So they decided to cull the former.
If anyone has the link and timestamp of the video, I believe it was Andrew Preston original idea how he always wanted two ships emerging from the water to battle it out on the seas. Hence Hourglass... I truly believe that was the reason why they garnered ''excuses'' to kill off Arena and instead introduce his vision in the game...**I would say it's worse, and not even close **
-
Sinking and having to re-dive for PvP in Hourglass is a massive time sink which breaks the PvP only session in half. I mentioned this countless times but the Hourglass Issue hands down is the core gameplay loop. AKA for newer players that want to train at PvP and get the cosmetics, you spend more time sinking/spawning and diving then actual PvP'ing, that's a massive issue. I've sailed with new players all the time, and they give up after a sink or two in a row. Because it's a hassle the down time and very very demotivating...
-
Comparison to Arena, where you sink, you got back in the action in less then a minute flat. Can't do that in Hourglass, that 1 minute spent sunk is on the death screen, tavern spawn... Losing in arena stung way less then it does in Hourglass. It also respected your time more (Core gameplay loop). In HG if I lost, I don't even know i'f ill be bothered to re-dive, or let alone my friend would just mentally give up and call it a day while I want to continue playing, that sucks. Hard.
-
A Games were 15 min long no matter what:
Quick short bursts of gameplay was nice. You were losing? Ok you had 10 minutes left to goof off or train a certain skill, work on a commendation, instead of trying to take the re-win. (Although 10 minutes was plenty of time to get the Victory back outside if you were facing against NAL competitive crews)....
3... B It had it's own community and ''eco-system'' if you will, Hourglass doesn't have the sese of ''camaraderie'' The lobby was a big part, even when they patched out hot mics in an update you could still send msgs to players that you frequented to play with. That's what I miss the most.
Tangent: RARE claims to care about communities so much yet did everything in their power to brush the Arena/Competitive one under the rug as if it was some monstrous mistake.BY THE WAY RARE hosted in person Arena tournaments before Covid hit and that all ended, so don't you think for one minute that the game was ''never competitive'' it was, players who say otherwise, well RARE did a damn good job at hiding it as mentioned...
Also let's not forget the NAL/SoC sails in game which was proof of that to...-
Just like Point 1 of the Hourglass lack of gameplay loop, the Supplies were fixed and in abundance. Fair playing ground. It didn't involve a bunch of RNG that HG does. Ok some players prefer random factors in HG, I don't mind it but if I could choose, I would choose the former, not the latter.
-
Rose tinted glasses away, it had it's issues of lack of updates: We don't talk about how that killed Arena slowly then the Devs pounced on that to gaslight the low player numbers as the reason to remove it, and also targeting ''toxicity'' as the big focus which I found was disgusting on their part putting us all in the same basket, public perception wise... Definitely not the month long bugs such as the chest beacon being heavily bugged... Hourglass had a lot of bugs, which could of been fixed. The dream and vision for the gamemode was there, they just never bothered to expand on it.
-
Arena probably will never come back. Ever, and if it does RARE loses massive credibility in their words for stating it will never come back just to lie and do a 180, that also includes all the Community managers/mods that say the same. You won't take their words seriously anymore after the massive double downing...
@IX Indi XI and his friends are making an Arena remake game called ''Broadside'' which judging off the video I saw, seems to share and be built off the Arena foundation in Unreal Engine 5.5 which is what we want in the first place. Still in development it looks really promising and the only game I'm waiting for at this point in the pirate - arcade shooter genre.
Leave the Arena behind as history and embrace whats to come is my opinion. Hourglass is massively boring with the same meta that has been present for 2 years now.
Lack of community potential, Guilds are left in the crevice as clout clan rather then a community building mechanic. BORING.Bonus: This is more a fun conspiracy, but I truly believe they killed Arena in order to live out a Devs dream that was Hourglass long before Arena/HG was a thing. Obviously you can't have bother PvP mods co-existing. So they decided to cull the former.
If anyone has the link and timestamp of the video I would appreciate it very much, I believe it was Andrew Preston's original idea how he always wanted two ships emerging from the water to battle it out on the seas. Hence Hourglass was born in order to replace The Arena... I truly believe that was the reason why they garnered ''excuses'' to kill off Arena and instead introduce his vision into the game...-
@sweetsandman said in Is hourglass worse than arena?:
HG was half baked from the onset and has remained as such since it launched. It truly could be something great. Sadly, without a massive amount of attention, it will continue to be hate-play content for the overwhelming majority of the playerbase.
I've said it for years at this point, the only way they will ever make HG fun is to step back from the constant push to stigmatize arena and the arena community, and truly examine what arena did right, what made it fun.
Something that happens way too often is SoT is that people break off into teams, their cliques. In the case of Hg some people are way to focused on the "get over it" part and not focused nearly enough on "let's embrace the good parts of something that is no longer around"
Arena isn't coming back, but HG doesn't have to be stuck in the mud forever. There are a lot of positive and helpful lessons to learn from the Arena experience.
The main one being that Arena was casual player friendly. Something all of adventure has struggled with for years.
@wolfmanbush said
Something that happens way too often is SoT is that people break off into teams, their cliques. In the case of Hg some people are way to focused on the "get over it" part and not focused nearly enough on "lets embrace the good parts of something that is no longer around"
Arena isn't coming back, but HG doesn't have to be stuck in the mud forever. There are a lot of positive and helpful lessons to learn from the Arena experience.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with your message. But when was the last time we had a big Hourglass update? Right. A few months after launch for the Floating Barrel/Stamp update, or 2024 they brought in 2/3 skeleton cosmetics. Wow is that it?
The first two updates looked very promising, until nothing... Also mind you this upcoming November Hourglass will be 3 years old.''helpful lessons to learn from the Arena experience.''
Sounds good, I ain't seeing it though since HG launch. So reality doesn't match what we dream off.''but HG doesn't have to be stuck in the mud forever. ''
It kinda of is though. All the Former Arena players that gave HG a chance left after it's first year because JUST LIKE THE ARENA, it lacked updates, breaking bugs in HG, Lag/desync. No communication from the Devs. It was repeated actions that saw no credible changes in Dev attitudes towards the PvP fans community.
The only Hardcore PvP HG players/teams that are still playing are the ones that are chronically addicted to the game (Literally) or ones that cannot give up on their cliques with SoT being the only Game that bonds them (Nothing wrong with that mind you). Or Nimssy trying to bring back LoT which some players are slowly returning to practice for (Most in that community moved on rightfully so).@veronik5682 said in Is hourglass worse than arena?:
@wolfmanbush said
Something that happens way too often is SoT is that people break off into teams, their cliques. In the case of Hg some people are way to focused on the "get over it" part and not focused nearly enough on "lets embrace the good parts of something that is no longer around"
Arena isn't coming back, but HG doesn't have to be stuck in the mud forever. There are a lot of positive and helpful lessons to learn from the Arena experience.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with your message. But when was the last time we had a big Hourglass update? Right. A few months after launch for the Floating Barrel/Stamp update, or 2024 they brought in 2/3 skeleton cosmetics. Wow is that it?
The first two updates looked very promising, until nothing...''helpful lessons to learn from the Arena experience.'' Sounds good, I ain't seeing it though since HG launch. So reality doesn't match what we dream off.
''but HG doesn't have to be stuck in the mud forever. '' It kinda of is though. All the Former Arena players that gave HG a chance left after it's first year because JUST LIKE THE ARENA, it lacked updates, breaking bugs in HG, Lag/desync. No communication from the Devs. It was repeated actions that saw no credible changes in Dev attitudes towards the PvP fans community.
The only Hardcore PvP HG players/teams that are still playing are the ones that are chronically addicted to the game (Literally) or ones that cannot give up on their cliques with SoT being the only Game that bonds them (Nothing wrong with that mind you). Or Nimssy trying to bring back LoT which some players are slowly returning to practice for (Most in that community moved on rightfully so).They could rework HG for 3 boats, have them spawn around a fort, keep the red sea, add a timer and a score system. Keep merging, keep 3rd party.
Winner gets the key to open the vault, which has "sea dog treasure"
new treasure that gets sold to an NPC at the arena tavern.Just that right there works it into their adventure system and creates opportunity for significantly more fun than anything 1v1 will ever create.
Everyone gets some rep based on the place they get, the sea dog treasure only spawns in those situations and it gives hg rep as well.
It will create a lot of fun server wide fights, without disheartening pressure on casual players like 1v1 creates.Is it perfect? no
Will people cause issues in it? yeah
Does it have significantly more opportunity for success than hg currently? yupYour headline's question, is relative to the individual. Some like it, others don't, and they're all correct. The thing with Arena was, it had it's own exclusive server dedicated to that mode. This required upkeep, and since only 2% of a player's time was spent in Arena overall (they have the numbers), it wasn't worth maintaining that server for that purpose. Since hourglass takes place in Adventure and not on a seperate server (which means they acknowledged 3rd partying can/will/does/is intended, to happen), there's nothing to maintain and it costs them nothing. So I don't see it "going away" as you say, as it's up to participants. The game also makes sure you'll find a match, be it against a new player or against a double-gold cursed veteran. The only thing you can do is try. Hourglass isn't perfect in my opinion, however I don't have the solutions or answers as to what can be done, let alone if they can be implemented.
I’ve noticed a lot people saying “have to” do this or that.
But. Who is forcing you? If you want pvp, but don’t wanna waste time diving. Start sailing around the map and attack the first ship you see.
Frankly. The complaints from arena and hourglass are not equal. Arena was a mode. Hourglass isn’t (even if people want it so)
Arena had rules, set objectives. Nobody followed, and that was bad experience.
Similar to how hourglass is. If you were wanting arena commedations, or achievements and just started playing, you never get them.At least hourglass has one focus. Straight up pvp. Fighting a ship you have no knowledge on how good they are, as like you would have if you picked a random ship while sailing around. They could be prepared, horrible, sweats, first timer, use nothing but curses, run/chase.
Arena was always the same nonsense. Random crew (sometimes) and other crews wanting to create own game mode instead of objective. Long nearly endless fights where most crews wouldn’t even fight anyways. Some would even gang up on a single ship and switch 1st and 2nd place.
But players don’t talk about those things. They stick with the highlights.Mechanically hourglass is better than arena since it wont disappear like arena due to it being implemented in adventure mode. They designed it that way intentionally since with arena the biggest reason it was cut was the amount of resources it took to run, every time it would change from hub to match then back to hub, and switch you to a different hub it would keep booting and shutting down servers. Hourglass wont be cut since that isnt a problem, even if it dies out completely it can be forgotten with no affect to the game nor server resources being used up inefficiently in the same way.
Gameplay wise, hourglass is absolutely dull as it gets. It was exciting for the first week save for a few bad apples, but then the entire mode was reworked due to those bad apples so rather than punishing them, people who were playing the mode as intended would be punished for their actions, and the basic adventure gameplay was nerfed.
While gameplay of arena and HG are completely different, arena was much more fun over all due to it being a very open and wild experience than HG turned into.
I would say Arena was far better than Hourglass, and it's not even close. Arena (for all it's issues) provided an alternative, fun experience that was different enough from main adventure, that it created a decent following.
In perspective, even after earning the rewards I wanted for Arena, I still played it because it was enjoyable by and in large. Hourglass on the other hand? I haven't touched the mode since I got both curses - in it's current state, it's a miserable experience and is completely unapproachable by anyone other than people who LIVE for hourglass. No new modes, barely any new cosmetics, no QOL changes, nada.
Arena didn't have much added onto it, but on pen and paper it was a really cool concept that at least was functionally fun from start to finish (issues aside).
@valor-omega No new modes, barely any new cosmetics, no QOL changes, nada.
Arena didn't have much added onto it, but on pen and paper it was a really cool concept that at least was functionally fun from start to finish (issues aside).
Arena had actual potential if the devs stopped crying and put effort into it.
Hourglass doesn't.
Arena was fun before arena 2.0 (and arena 2.0 Is STILL Better than hg tho)
Hourglass Is and never was a fun mode.
A complete failure wich lacked support from the devs as usual,busy pumping content half backed and bugged to try raise the playercount wich Is falling due to the lack of understanding of what players want.
They even released the game on PlayStation Just to lose 90% of that playerbase in the First month.
Hourglass Is Just a recipient for cheaters now,wich Is good If you play Adventure.
Game honestly feels like Destiny 2 sometimes with how much content is added, barely touched then abandoned in favor of the next content drop. There is no reason HG has to be stagnant, boring and insanely unrewarding to play but it just is much like other aspects of the game that dont get the touch ups they deserve. I cant even smoothly enjoy fighting regular enemies in this game because of hit detection and lag eating my attacks, so forget even engaging in PvP. I might as well be playing FO76 again cause at least in that game you can flat out ignore PvP.
@cptfatsparow594 Hourglass was enjoyable when it launched because it was new, but when Rare drops content and then goes completely radio silent on it for multiple years, all of the issues left unattended make Hourglass a bad experience. I can't even imagine how terrible HG is for new players wanting to learn PVP.. As other have said, the gameplay loop is trash, the restocking supps is not fun, and the list goes on a mile long. Obviously, Arena had issues too, but again most of that had to do with Rare's complete neglect. Rare doesn't seem to comprehend or want to acknowledge that making a PvP mode or game loop will require constant updates. Imagine games like CoD, CS2, Valorant, etc. getting released and then never updated. Those games would be dead as Arena. Yet for some reason Rare can't figure out why people stopped playing Arena and HG.. Crazy.
@thamb0 100% agree, and might I add that to many players the PvP has gotten worse since the launch of HG. HG was at it's peak in S9, where they fixed many of it's early issues. But now PvP is worse, people are fed up with the (faster than launch, but still present) boring, repetitive tasks like supping, and due to the mode's player numbers crashing, the quality of matches is all over the place, usually offering a complete bot or a hacker. PvP is fundamentally less fun, your opponents are either uninteresting or unfair, and the gameplay experience is full of boring or uninteresting parts.
Short answer: YES! Absolutely!
With that said:
I will get into ego-mode and I will not read the other ppl's answers here just because it is very tiring to read over and other that arena and hourglass are not the same and all that mimimimimi thing that comes up every single time we have an adult conversation regarding this topic. So I tell you my personal experience:
- Arena was nearly perfect. And this opinion comes from a person that REALLY suck at PVP. There is no learning curve for me in this game. But in arena, I got many achievemetns and commendations. I even got a few tens of MVPs a few times. It was FUN (and that comes from a person that HATES PVP). It had a LOT of team work, tens or hundreds of strategies... It was straight to the bone. Start, fight, limited time, charts, a place where you can see flags representing the results of the last match, a cool lobby with parkour and a hot tub and so much more. It was A BEAUTY. The only real problem was the social drama (very constant toxicity and its corresponding whining afterwards) and you needed to silence a LOT of ppl all the time. But if you understand your controls, it was handlable.
- What do you have in Hourglass? ... one ship.. in front of the other ... 2 or 3 strategies: turn left or turn right... circle, paralel, collision or run .. A few random variables like volcanoes, storm, rocks in the middle... and ... that's it.
The general feeling of hourglass is very negative in terms of gameplay. The arena gameplay feeling was pretty sportive for me. Of course ppl get mad and disconnected when they got sink and of course your crew suffered lack of positions; and from time to time you ended up alone in a galleon. But it was only few minutes until that match ended and another one starts with crew members re-paired.
Arena was a piece of art. It needed adjustments, of course, but in those times the entire game was very artistic and had the vibe of "work in progress" we adults accept and support. I bought it because of that. Now a days, knowing what I know about how the game is right now, probably I won't buy it. And the feeling of how the hourglass works and is balanced, is a big part of that decision.
@captthreepwood said
With that said:
I will get into ego-mode and I will not read the other ppl's answers here just because it is very tiring to read over and other that arena and hourglass are not the same and all that mimimimimi thing that comes up every single time we have an adult conversation regarding this topic. So I tell you my personal experience:
You say that, then proceed to share your opinion of what everyone here was already saying whilst doing the mimimimiim thing...
POINT IS I think OP, everyone else reading this post gets the gist. Arena was miles better then what HG is currently. 5 ships going at each other is a big part but also not the ONLY part that make HG fun. The community that was formed around it was FUN, which was destroyed.
I made a bullet point list above highlighting the details.@veronik5682 said in Is hourglass worse than arena?:
You say that, then proceed to share your opinion of what everyone here was already saying whilst doing the mimimimiim thing...
That actually proves that I didn't read the previous posts at all! XD
hahahha
I was expecting the standard comments I get everytime I talk about this in previous posts =D
Sorry the misdirection. Lazy-mode won again =DPOINT IS I think OP, everyone else reading this post gets the gist. Arena was miles better then what HG is currently. 5 ships going at each other is a big part but also not the ONLY part that make HG fun. I made a bullet point list above highlighting the details.
Oh!.. that's... new. Actually... that is VERY good! I'll take a look. Thanks for point it out, mate
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