Pay to win features?

  • Zeyrniyx
    Master
    Insider

    First of all, I would like to point out that what follows follows a debate on another post.
    Also, I would like the moderators of this forum not to block this post, unless they believe that a message is harmful to anyone.
    Although I am the author of this topic, I am not particularly concerned with what follows, but I believe this topic is quite important.
    This post is not here for any PvP/PvE debate or a debate for or against Safers Seas, and it mainly concerns console players!
    And to conclude this introduction, please forgive me if my English is not perfect, it is not my language.

    As you undoubtedly know, in December 2023 the Safers Seas will be released. A great idea for all those beginner players who wanted to get started with this incredible game but who were stuck because of the complexity that these players could feel regarding the different gameplay mechanics.
    Although the developers insisted at length that Safers Seas was only there to be a stepping stone to the High Seas, some players forgot the other part of their message: allowing families to enjoy the game without having to endure the toxicity of players, to offer a certain accessibility to people who need it.
    The veterans of this forum only took part of the developers' message and threw away the other, although which represents, I think, a large part of the players...

    Very quickly, following the announcement of Safers Seas a request from players kept coming back, even today (at the time of writing this post it is also the main request from players), the possibility of being able to sail with your own captain ship.

    This is a heated subject, which is often locked in fact, (I see you moderators, patience :) because yes the Safers Seas have restrictions which are for the most part perfectly valid and to which I fully subscribe.

    So let's move forward in time: Season 11.
    During this season a monthly update is available, that of March 14, 2024 to be precise and now, players who are on consoles can now play Sea of Thieves without subscribing to the Xbox Live service and since April 30 the service Sony PSN, while playing in Safers Seas., all alone.

    What is the problem ? would you tell me...

    First of all, I would like to point out that on paper, it's perfect. Allowing new or old players to play solo without having to pay extra can be good, but there you go... when you scratch the surface you see an ugly stain...
    In reality it becomes pay to win. For what ?

    As a certain person, who might recognize themselves if they read this post, told me: "It's clear that if they choose to play without a subscription, they have fewer features."
    This is the definition of pay to win and my main problem is that this pay to win is disguised, hidden. Rare's communication remains very vague on this point.

    I never thought Sea of Thieves would become this kind of game, I really never thought it would.

    Additionally, as many here often say, repeating word for word what they have read, Safers Seas is an extended tutorial. If I take your word for it, then this is the most expensive tutorial on the market!

    You could retort that before this so-called update, the subscription was obligatory so ultimately it doesn't matter, but no, precisely, because the question did not arise at all.

    Also, we all get the idea that Sea of Thieves is this kind of encounter-filled game, and that the majority of veterans would never think for even a second that it would become a single-player game. .

    The future of the game scares me, because as the years pass, the essence of the game fades little by little.
    A game that was basically multiplayer is now playable solo.
    A game that was based on PvPvE now has a PvE server, YES we call them PvE servers despite some people thinking.
    But even more serious, a game which offered optional purchases now places more emphasis on these purchases (via pop-ups and new submenus) and now by adding a subscription to access features such as captaincy for example.

    I'm surprised, yes I admit it, that I'm one of the few people to talk about it on this forum, yet it literally jumped out at me during the March update and yes, it worries me for the future.

    Never have the High Seas, Capitaincy, Guilds, become a pirate legend, or whatever, been sold as optional features subject to additional purchase.
    If Sea of Thieves really becomes a single-player game (which it has been since March 2024, I want to repeat) then ensure that all features are unlocked and it is not a feature requiring additional purchase.
    I have often read here on this forum, the idea that the progressions be divided into two: Safers Seas and Hautes Mers. Before I wasn't for it, but ultimately it could be the solution.

    In any case, in its current state, this poses great concerns to me, because I find it difficult to accept the idea that this game to which I have given more than 9000 hours of my life, in which I have made incredible encounters , where I had incredible experiences became this random pay to win game and obviously it is taking this path, little by little.

    As I have already said, this subject concerns above all console players who represent more than 60% of players (figures given by Rare in a tweet a few years ago, figure undoubtedly to be updated since the release on Ps5, not PC players.

    If this post survives a moderator block, I would be really grateful, as I want to hear the opinions of the members of this forum.
    I would also like to thank these people with whom I have already been able to talk about it on this forum, but I wanted to open a separate post because the subject on which we were talking was not entirely respected.

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  • Kezmur
    Marauder
    Insider
    Founder

    This is not paying Rare, it's paying Sony/Microsoft. It's been a console problem since the Xbox 360, consumers paid for it anyways instead of making a fuss, telling all the big companies "you can charge for this." You have to pay to play anything online on consoles. On Xbox, you have to pay for Xbox Live to play Final Fantasy XIV, a game that already has it's own subscription too. Complaining to a third party is not going to make Sony lift their PSN requirements, this is a console manufacturer thing, not a Rare thing. It's been the problem for over a decade, it's not going away now. The literal only solution is to stop buying into the grift that is consoles.

  • Zeyrniyx
    Master
    Insider

    @kezmur a dit dans Pay to win features? :

    This is not paying Rare, it's paying Sony/Microsoft. It's been a console problem since the Xbox 360, consumers paid for it anyways instead of making a fuss, telling all the big companies "you can charge for this." You have to pay to play anything online on consoles. On Xbox, you have to pay for Xbox Live to play Final Fantasy XIV, a game that already has it's own subscription too. Complaining to a third party is not going to make Sony lift their PSN requirements, this is a console manufacturer thing, not a Rare thing. It's been the problem for over a decade, it's not going away now. The literal only solution is to stop buying into the grift that is consoles.

    Yes, these players pay for the Xbox service or the Sony service for access to multiplayer. But that's not actually the problem. The “pay to win” access to many in-game features, however, comes from Rare.
    Given that these features such as captaincy, guilds, legend etc... are not available in Safers Seas but only in the multiplayer mode (High Seas) then from there they become additional paid features EXCEPT it is not was never sold as such. Do you understand the problem?

  • Kezmur
    Marauder
    Insider
    Founder

    How is it pay to win? There's no one to even "win" against in Safer Seas. I'm more surprised to can even play Safer Seas without a console subscription. You're complaining to the wrong company.

  • Zeyrniyx
    Master
    Insider

    @kezmur a dit dans Pay to win features? :

    How is it pay to win? There's no one to even "win" against in Safer Seas. I'm more surprised to can even play Safer Seas without a console subscription. You're complaining to the wrong company.

    Here it is about paying to gain access to additional features which are normally basic in the game (on the high seas).
    As I said, before the question simply arose, because the subscription was compulsory, but by becoming optional then it becomes pay to win to use in addition to purchasing the game.

  • Kezmur
    Marauder
    Insider
    Founder

    Sounds like its still compulsory to me like it always has been on console. High Seas is the game. Safer Seas is not a PvE server and is not meant to be a replacement for High Seas for babies scared of PvP. High Seas is the actual game, always has been, always will be. Safer Seas is a glorified tutorial mode

  • Lem0n Curry
    Vanguard
    Insider

    @zeyrniyx said in Pay to win features?:

    As I have already said, this subject concerns above all console players who represent more than 60% of players (figures given by Rare in a tweet a few years ago, figure undoubtedly to be updated since the release on Ps5, not PC players.

    It doesn't concern the approx. 60 % though, only those people whose only game on their console which needs a subscription might be affected if they opt for only playing solo and buy the game instead of playing it via the game pass (or whatever other subscription they pay for on their console to play SoT and other games) . As I said before, for those people I consider it a service that they don't need to pay for a subscription anymore if their only online game is SoT.
    It's not that people who only are interested to play Safer Seas Solo suddenly got less than before console subscription for Solo Safer Seas was no longer needed.

    When people choose for never(*) playing on High Seas and without crewmates they already had lost some features (Captaincy, use of Sovereigns, features that are designed for multiple crews &c).

    The need for subscription was there if you want to enjoy the complete game (and/or other games) with other people and guess will stay there until MS and/or Sony change their policies.

    (*) or at least until they want to play with other people either on their crew or on other crews.

  • Zeyrniyx
    Master
    Insider

    @kezmur a dit dans Pay to win features? :

    Sounds like its still compulsory to me like it always has been on console. High Seas is the game. Safer Seas is not a PvE server and is not meant to be a replacement for High Seas for babies scared of PvP. High Seas is the actual game, always has been, always will be. Safer Seas is a glorified tutorial mode

    So I refer you to the update note of March 14, 2024.

    And to say that Safers Seas is not the real game, so how do you explain the fact that when people buy Sea of Thieves on console, without a subscription, can play the game, in Safer Seas?
    And to say that Safers Seas is not the real game, so how do you explain the fact that when people buy Sea of Thieves on console, without a subscription, can play the game, in Safer Seas?
    And of course the Safers Seas are 100% PvE servers.
    Besides, on console, if you don't have a subscription, then all of Sea of Thieves is a single-player PvE game;

  • WolfManbush
    Champion

    Pretty important point is that 6 years in they made the decision to add a perk.

    They added, they didn't take away.

    Imo when looking at it for what it is rather than something to use for a narrative about something it's not a negative or concerning thing.

  • GipperSeaDog
    Master

    @kezmur said in Pay to win features?:

    Safer Seas is not a PvE server and is not meant to be a replacement for High Seas for babies scared of PvP. High Seas is the actual game, always has been, always will be. Safer Seas is a glorified tutorial mode

    Kezmur, Please be respectful to players that like to experience the Safer Seas gameplay.
    Furthermore, No matter who or what anyone says, Safer Seas, in reality is far more than a "glorified tutorial"
    Thank you.

  • Zeyrniyx
    Master
    Insider

    @lem0n-curry a dit dans Pay to win features? :

    @zeyrniyx said in Pay to win features?:

    As I have already said, this subject concerns above all console players who represent more than 60% of players (figures given by Rare in a tweet a few years ago, figure undoubtedly to be updated since the release on Ps5, not PC players.

    It doesn't concern the approx. 60 % though, only those people whose only game on their console which needs a subscription might be affected if they opt for only playing solo and buy the game instead of playing it via the game pass (or whatever other subscription they pay for on their console to play SoT and other games) . As I said before, for those people I consider it a service that they don't need to pay for a subscription anymore if their only online game is SoT.
    It's not that people who only are interested to play Safer Seas Solo suddenly got less than before console subscription for Solo Safer Seas was no longer needed.

    When people choose for never(*) playing on High Seas and without crewmates they already had lost some features (Captaincy, use of Sovereigns, features that are designed for multiple crews &c).

    The need for subscription was there if you want to enjoy the complete game (and/or other games) with other people and guess will stay there until MS and/or Sony change their policies.

    (*) or at least until they want to play with other people either on their crew or on other crews.

    I totally agree with you that this does not represent all players.
    But understand that the very idea of locking these features through a purchase poses serious concerns.
    Again, before that was the case but since it was mandatory at least we knew that if we wanted to play whether it was in High Seas or Safers Seas, then we could do it. There, the big part, the major part of the game is now blocked if you don't have the subscription THEN, and this is the most serious, that the game was paid for at full price.

  • Lem0n Curry
    Vanguard
    Insider

    @zeyrniyx said in Pay to win features?:

    @lem0n-curry a dit dans Pay to win features? :

    @zeyrniyx said in Pay to win features?:

    As I have already said, this subject concerns above all console players who represent more than 60% of players (figures given by Rare in a tweet a few years ago, figure undoubtedly to be updated since the release on Ps5, not PC players.

    It doesn't concern the approx. 60 % though, only those people whose only game on their console which needs a subscription might be affected if they opt for only playing solo and buy the game instead of playing it via the game pass (or whatever other subscription they pay for on their console to play SoT and other games) . As I said before, for those people I consider it a service that they don't need to pay for a subscription anymore if their only online game is SoT.
    It's not that people who only are interested to play Safer Seas Solo suddenly got less than before console subscription for Solo Safer Seas was no longer needed.

    When people choose for never(*) playing on High Seas and without crewmates they already had lost some features (Captaincy, use of Sovereigns, features that are designed for multiple crews &c).

    The need for subscription was there if you want to enjoy the complete game (and/or other games) with other people and guess will stay there until MS and/or Sony change their policies.

    (*) or at least until they want to play with other people either on their crew or on other crews.

    I totally agree with you that this does not represent all players.
    But understand that the very idea of locking these features through a purchase poses serious concerns.
    Again, before that was the case but since it was mandatory at least we knew that if we wanted to play whether it was in High Seas or Safers Seas, then we could do it. There, the big part, the major part of the game is now blocked if you don't have the subscription THEN, and this is the most serious, that the game was paid for at full price.

    As long as it is clear that for the full game, you need to either buy the game and have the online subscription or play it on game pass and have a subscription, I don't see an issue as their alternative is paying for a subscription when not playing with other players.

    If people want to pay full price for something and only use part of it, it's their choice.

  • Capt Kamoba
    Seafarer

    This isn’t Rare “pay to win” feature for firstly Pay to win means paying money for an advantage to win against other players not for the ability to play against other players in an equal setting.

    Secondly your issue stems from console subscription requirements which is out of Rared control.

    Too many people complain about the subscription requirements but still do not boycott it when they should.

  • Zeyrniyx
    Master
    Insider

    @lem0n-curry a dit dans Pay to win features? :

    @zeyrniyx said in Pay to win features?:

    @lem0n-curry a dit dans Pay to win features? :

    @zeyrniyx said in Pay to win features?:

    As I have already said, this subject concerns above all console players who represent more than 60% of players (figures given by Rare in a tweet a few years ago, figure undoubtedly to be updated since the release on Ps5, not PC players.

    It doesn't concern the approx. 60 % though, only those people whose only game on their console which needs a subscription might be affected if they opt for only playing solo and buy the game instead of playing it via the game pass (or whatever other subscription they pay for on their console to play SoT and other games) . As I said before, for those people I consider it a service that they don't need to pay for a subscription anymore if their only online game is SoT.
    It's not that people who only are interested to play Safer Seas Solo suddenly got less than before console subscription for Solo Safer Seas was no longer needed.

    When people choose for never(*) playing on High Seas and without crewmates they already had lost some features (Captaincy, use of Sovereigns, features that are designed for multiple crews &c).

    The need for subscription was there if you want to enjoy the complete game (and/or other games) with other people and guess will stay there until MS and/or Sony change their policies.

    (*) or at least until they want to play with other people either on their crew or on other crews.

    I totally agree with you that this does not represent all players.
    But understand that the very idea of locking these features through a purchase poses serious concerns.
    Again, before that was the case but since it was mandatory at least we knew that if we wanted to play whether it was in High Seas or Safers Seas, then we could do it. There, the big part, the major part of the game is now blocked if you don't have the subscription THEN, and this is the most serious, that the game was paid for at full price.

    As long as it is clear that for the full game, you need to either buy the game and have the online subscription or play it on game pass and have a subscription, I don't see an issue as their alternative is paying for a subscription when not playing with other players.

    If people want to pay full price for something and only use part of it, it's their choice.

    However, the purchase of the game is complete....

  • Zeyrniyx
    Master
    Insider

    @capt-kamoba a dit dans Pay to win features? :

    This isn’t Rare “pay to win” feature for firstly Pay to win means paying money for an advantage to win against other players not for the ability to play against other players in an equal setting.

    Secondly your issue stems from console subscription requirements which is out of Rared control.

    Too many people complain about the subscription requirements but still do not boycott it when they should.

    Once again, the advantage of this pay to win is to gain additional features, not to have an advantage over other players.

  • Captain Coel
    Commander
    Insider

    @zeyrniyx

    First.
    There are 3 ways to play.
    Safer Seas - Solo
    *Safer Seas - Crew
    *Higher Seas

    • needs to have game pass to play

    Second.
    On the app page for the game it says
    "Online multi-player on console requires Xbox Game Pass Ultimate or Xbox Game Pass Core (memberships sold separately)"

    No where does it actually advertise you can play without a connection.

    Third.
    This is how gaming is on consoles. Other games have content that is locked behind a Xbox live/psn. This is not new.

    Fourth.
    It's not just captaincy that is missing from safer seas. Captaincy, Athena, Reapers, Guilds, Gilded Quests, Ashen Tomes, limited time events, and more.

    Lastly. This is why it's intended to be a safe place, a tutorial, a place for families. Removing the risk removes part of the game. I get it, your not happy that a subscription is required for higher seas. Oh well. It just seems like you are learning of these issues now when it's been an industry standard for 20 years.

  • Soulstinger2k20
    Master
    Insider

    If you consider actually having to BUY A GAME "pay to win" vs essentially playing it for free alveit on game pass.. well I dont know how to help you

  • BurnBacon
    Vanguard
    Insider

    Seeing them ask the mods not to lock this post, clearly means they know what they are typing.

    Its Silly and just wanting to start an unnecessary argument with no real facts to back up.

  • Spoopy9host
    Master
    Insider

    @zeyrniyx additional features don't constitute pay to win tho? It's pay to play, but not pay to win. I understand your grievance, however, and it would be nice if microsoft dropped the need for a subscription to enable multiplayer. They unfortunately probably won't, as this garners then quite a lot of money.

  • Kezmur
    Marauder
    Insider
    Founder

    It's just a dumb, round about way to complain about Safer Seas limitations. They are intentionally misusing the term "pay to win" despite the meaning of that term, paying to WIN against someone else, being written in the term itself and refusing to back down when corrected. They are complaining about an issue at the hands of the console manufacturers (Sony and Mirosoft), not Rare, and has been an industry standard for over a decade. They don't care. This is just an roundabout way to complain about Safer Seas and asking for its features to be expanded, which they won't be. The thread will 100% get locked, I think the mod for this subforum as the day off or something, but it'll be locked.

  • Zeyrniyx
    Master
    Insider

    @kezmur a dit dans Pay to win features? :

    It's just a dumb, round about way to complain about Safer Seas limitations. They are intentionally misusing the term "pay to win" despite the meaning of that term, paying to WIN against someone else, being written in the term itself and refusing to back down when corrected. They are complaining about an issue at the hands of the console manufacturers (Sony and Mirosoft), not Rare, and has been an industry standard for over a decade. They don't care. This is just an roundabout way to complain about Safer Seas and asking for its features to be expanded, which they won't be. The thread will 100% get locked, I think the mod for this subforum as the day off or something, but it'll be locked.

    First of all, I won't allow you to accuse me of being stupid or of misappropriating something because that is not the case.
    And if you read correctly, I'm not, personally, concerned about this, seeing as I'm a long-time player who spends most of his time on the High Seas.
    So thank you for not diverting what I say!
    I know it's hard for some here to respect other people's opinions, but please make an effort.

    And regarding my request for the moderators not to close the ticket in such an easy way, I know the forum very well and I know that posts related to Safers Seas are often closed with a pre-written message. Except this subject does not really concern safer seas.
    A reasonable and thoughtful person would totally understand it ;)

  • GoldsMen
    Captain
    Insider

    @zeyrniyx said in Pay to win features?:

    some players forgot the other part of their message: allowing families to enjoy the game without having to endure the toxicity of players

    The devs never used the word toxicity in that video, because being able to attack anyone is not toxicity.

    As for the rest of your claim, having free access to safer seas but not the rest of the game does not make the game pay to win by any definition. Safer seas is functionally a free trial in that regard and makes the rest of the game into the actual full experience you have to pay for.

    Having to pay for the actual game to get the games content is not pay to win, its called buying/renting the game. If you want to play the game, you have to actually pay for a copy of it.

  • GoldsMen
    Captain
    Insider

    After seeing quite a few responses in this thread, i can say that the entire issue here is a core misunderstanding of what pay to win means on the ops end, and refusal to accept that the term means something other than buying the main content of a game.

  • Rotten Rocko
    Marauder
    Founder

    His doing a very good job of publicly making himself look silly, on this crusade of make believe pay to win

  • Archon2024
    Sailor

    personally Sea of Thieves has been a single player game for me since year1 so not sure what you're talking about. 80% of my play time has been single player. maybe 10% normal play when the game first dropped and we learned tricks how to get safer seas due to server functionality. then came alliance servers since athena loot was so hard to earn and that one item being the only source of progressions discords popped up so people wouldnt literally be wasting hours of their day farming for 1 singular reputation item. now theres loads of variety in athena loot and no longer is the voyage full of useless trade company items you no longer needed

    the only pay2win aspect of this game is people paying discords for priority que status basically to skip in line to get onto this high demand feature rare refuses to add to the game.

    as someone who only pves in TRUE safer seas now this game has great pve fun. the methods to get a full progression safe server is annoying but those of us who know how are doing it anyway so adding proper support for it.... heck i would even take the slower progression of safer seas if i could bring in my guild ship and do athenas so i could "PLAY HOW YOU WANT" but instead safer seas is a useless mode for noobs to learn the basics of the game. its a joke. the most pathetic thing i have seen any developer put out as an answer to their most highly sought after feature. they dont like money apparently because more players = more eyes on the cash shop but they keep alienating the pvers like myself. im just smart enough to have figured out "tools not rules" approach to playing MY WAY

  • Straw Hat Blake
    Master
    Insider

    @zeyrniyx Pay to win is regarding PVP when people that pay money have benefits over people that don't. You can get all the coin you want on the high seas and it's not going to make you better at sailing than the sailors on the safer seas. The barrel emote was the closest thing Rare had to pay to win and its since been fixed. The misleading title just attracts negative attention so Im not surprised it's getting locked tbh.

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