Generally speaking, most successful games offering PvPvE experiences deliver some sort of PvE-only option. Games like The Division 2, Destiny 2, and even Escape from Tarkov do this, so I'm glad Rare is finally giving us this opportunity. While it may be annoying to see your favorite game shifting away from the original vision you bought into, sometimes it's the only way to avoid falling into irrelevancy. One significant example is the entire MMO genre, where having a shared world and player interactions used to be their bread and butter, but for the last decade, the percentage of solo players kept rising and rising until those players eventually made up the majority of the player base today. So a genre long considered to be dying now has very successful games in which most (but not all) content can also be done solo, which in turn also made established older games pivot towards this. This paradigm shift into having expansive single-player content might as well have saved the entire genre. What I'm trying to say is they have all the data and have made a conscious decision for what they believe will be the best for their game. It's less about "betrayal" and more about a vision for supporting SoT for years to come, and to do that, sometimes compromises will have to be made.
Rare is not going to listen to you. 30% was to try to appease you.
@woozyaphid78158 sagte in Rare is not going to listen to you. 30% was to try to appease you.:
And maybe PvEvP isn’t a healthy genre long term.
Maybe it doesn’t have as broad as an appeal as a game with two or more modes.
Maybe start accepting facts half a decade into the journey.
For years you have put the needs and desires of the most skilled players who mostly only PvP above the needs and desires of the new, casual, old, young, uncoordinated, etc.
The wrong choice if you ask me.
Well, "facts" - you really mean your opinion there mate.
It is not a fact if you believe the modell is not sustainable.
I dont even know where you want to go with this line of thought. What is your intention or your wishes, exactly? Do you want PvE ? Well, the safer seas are coming.
Do you want to get everything without doing anything? Well, that would just make things random and meaningless.I personally really like the PvPvE aspect of the game, I think SoT is special, and I do think SoT is kind of magical in that design.
You might not enjoy it - others, like myself, do.Furthermore: There have been a number of updates that focused on making the PvE experience more fun: Instanced Tall Tales for one. buffing sloop defensiveness for one. Adding a ton of Tall Tales (Jack Sparrow, and now Monkey Island) for one. Even HG is helping the PvE aspect of the game, as it takes the hardcore PvP hungry folks away from the regular gameplay.
And now: Saver Seas. You are really on thin ice here complaining that the game would only cather to PvP imho.I think your posts would not come across so aggressive or toxic - they kinda do imho - if you would start speaking for yourself only, instead of using an "Argumentum ad verecundiam" argumenative tactic. And also I agree: giving suggestions or speaking from your own perspective is less confrontative then demanding stuff changes to fit your needs.
So you can't equate this to simply Rare is changing their stance on aspects of the game rather than call them liars?
To me calling them a liar is implying they always had this change planned from the beginning and were always intending to deceive us.
People overthink this stuff and create their own scenarios in their heads getting upset over minimal things.
I remember when BFV was going to come out and people were very critical on how it was a horrible game due to developer choices on content. Then one of the guys from Dice i believe simply told them "if you don't like it don't buy it". He probably felt really good after saying that. But unfortunately social media and dumb things spread like wildfire only when it is for negative things but not positive.
@eva1977 said in Rare is not going to listen to you. 30% was to try to appease you.:
So you can't equate this to simply Rare is changing their stance on aspects of the game rather than call them liars?
To me calling them a liar is implying they always had this change planned from the beginning and were always intending to deceive us.
People overthink this stuff and create their own scenarios in their heads getting upset over minimal things.
I remember when BFV was going to come out and people were very critical on how it was a horrible game due to developer choices on content. Then one of the guys from Dice i believe simply told them "if you don't like it don't play it". He probably felt really good after saying that. But unfortunately social media and dumb things spread like wildfire only when it is for negative things but not positive.
No, for years the general go to ask was for PvE only servers.
And for years the response by the community has been this is a PvEvP game only.
This sparked a mega thread which the Devs made it abundantly clear that the PvEvP model was their game and they were going to stick to that.
They have been asked tons of times in their videos on this issue and we can pull up the replays on that if you wish but generally if you've been following the game you'd already know this.This wasn't a subtle, lets change our mind. This had to have been planned. They out right lied about it. Whether or not the change is good or people 'overthink' one way or another about it is irrelevant here on this point.
@lord-spark-0 The way you see things but not all of us.
In the end whatever their reasons are my stance is so what?@eva1977 said in Rare is not going to listen to you. 30% was to try to appease you.:
@lord-spark-0 The way you see things but not all of us.
In the end whatever their reasons are my stance is so what?So.
It further solidifies that player feedback is meaningless.
Your views as well as mine does not matter to them.Any posts past/present/future, is.. so what?
So what if you had an amazing idea that could help the game out?
So what if you found something in the game that could be exploited (a general complaint)?
So what?
@eva1977 said in Rare is not going to listen to you. 30% was to try to appease you.:
People overthink this stuff and create their own scenarios in their heads getting upset over minimal things.
The is pretty dismissive and inaccurate considering it's the biggest change the game has seen. This is a bigger change than even anything that happened with arena.
I don't think they lied (and I've been supportive of safer seas going forward) but people have a substantive case for confidence in the product. Investment requires confidence and morale, so it is important. It's also not great for marketing to worsen the relationship with long term players in an unnecessary way (being dismissive) as they recommend/don't recommend products and experiences as well.
Do I think the people that intend to stay will adapt and mostly successfully? yes, but this will play a part or a large part in long term players making the decision to move on so if people are frustrated for a while with the significant environmental change, that makes sense.
The game environment and parts of the community have a long history of being dismissive over big changes that effect long term play. That never improves the situation.
@wolfmanbush It's not even out yet so how can you know what it's going to do for the game?
For all we know we won't even notice the change, or at least wait until it comes out, try it out then make up our minds before spewing negative feedback like everyone is doing.@eva1977 said in Rare is not going to listen to you. 30% was to try to appease you.:
@wolfmanbush It's not even out yet so how can you know what it's going to do for the game?
For all we know we won't even notice the change, or at least wait until it comes out, try it out then make up our minds before start spewing negative feedback like everyone is doing.Everyone isn't "spewing negative feedback"
Considering the change the feedback hasn't been that bad.
it'll all work out in the end, the dismissive takes just get people more fired up.
it's like saying "calm down" "it doesn't matter" rather than being supportive and encouraging of going forward. While people are processing change and have substantive concerns typically it'll burn itself out much much quicker by not being dismissive. Then people can adapt going forward without a bunch of unnecessary escalations in the moment.
A large majority of those that stay for season 10 will adapt in a coupleish weeks as content is added and it'll be fine. This feedback is just part of the path to get there.
If people really wanna support season 10 and safer seas they aren't doing that by going around the social areas and poking at people that are going through something we all go through at different times in life.
@wolfmanbush Yes they are and its everywhere but maybe not as much in these forums.
But i'd much rather wait to voice a proper opinion when it actually comes out and then make up my own mind on things i like and don't like vs jumping on the bandwagon of how dare Rare make this change!@eva1977 said in Rare is not going to listen to you. 30% was to try to appease you.:
@wolfmanbush Yes they are and its everywhere but maybe not as much in these forums.
But i'd much rather wait to voice a proper opinion when it actually comes out and then make up my own mind on things i like and don't like vs jumping on the bandwagon of how dare Rare make this change!We are all in this together, as often as it can feel like sides, teams, crews. Accountability is absolutely necessary as it helps support accuracy and decency but it's gotta be understanding as well.
That's where it is important for people that are not frustrated in change to maintain a measured approach for those that are. We all go through the same things in some form. Happens at different times and for different reasons but community is getting each other through it.
Most are gonna get through this after they go through the frustration, the game is gonna be alright and people are gonna be alright.
Go on YouTube and find a video of some prominent streamers cynically trolling, sometimes kids, and laughing about it. It's not hard.
If something I created allowed for that I'd do something about it too.
You weren't lied to. No one removed their glove and slapped you across the face with it. This is a video game. It is evolving and now having a feature you don't even need to concern yourself with added to it. People in SS mode will literally be alone, doing whatever.
"Somewhere....out there....someone is having fun. But Rare once promised to me......that this would never be done."
- Sung to the main theme of "An American Tail"
@lord-spark-0 Calling them liars has an attitude of entitlement to it that I do not like.
Rare does not owe the players anything really. Of course, if they want folks to stick around, then they should respect the player - same as the player should respect the company. Imho, generally speaking.
I have been around and I seen the PvE Posts appearing over and over again, getting locked over and over again with clear reference to Rares stance on "never changing PvPvE". So I think I know where you come from. I can understand that.
I for myself kinda did see a difference the last year or so - when such posts had been outright locked in the past, the last year it seemed people where suddenly allowed to at least debate them to some degree. I was alrdy kinda picking up a scent, if you know what I mean.I do however also think the call for PvE was not as simple as private servers, there was much more to it.
Private servers, as far as I am aware, exist for years now for content creators, and they have been allowed to debate upon for quite a while.
The Call for PvE however was going in many directions: Private Servers; "friendly" servers with the servers being "full players, but everyone is invincible"; a ship that has no cannons but can evade everyone; a flag that turns only your ship invincible free to use whenever you want to skip PvP; etc. etc.
So, as far as I am aware at least, there where a number of different ideas floating around, and many have been shut down because Rare always said: the game is PvPvE, and those ideas would alter the core gameplay too much.
I do think private servers now are the least impactful of all those PvE ideas that have been around: For one because they alrdy exist for content creation (as far as I am aware/what I understood from the feedback forum- maybe I am wrong?), and also because the progress is slowed down 70%, and with a level cap on the companies, so, not everything is optainable in "easy mode". Fair, imo.So I guess what I want to say is: Imho it is not as simple as "Rare breaks their word". but rather: Rare develops with the years of feedback (there have been tons of PvE posts over the years), and also: Rare tried to carefully look for the least disturbing approach. Imho they did great. Lets see what the saver seas bring.
I think you are wrong when you say "player feedback is meaningless" as clearly a ton of players over the years kept asking for PvE. So Rare really did nothing else then simply react to player feedback here. Quite late, I wanna add.
I guess what you really mean by that is: You did not get your feedback of "no PvE at all" fullfilled, therefore you are angry. But trying to claim now "everything is meaningless" because a tiny addition to the game you disagree with? is a little bit much, dont you think?
I do not find doomsday scenarios and overexaggerations particularily helpful or correct here.-
They are liars. Its pretty clear and you already talked your way coming to that conclusion.
-
Entitlement? Of course, but don't mistake me for the salty vets on here begging and pleading with Rare to do this or that with it.
Let me break this down for you. Ive been here since the beginning more or less and witnessed a lot here concerning this very topic.
-Im not even against PvE only servers. If there is a market for this, then its good for business. Good for business = more revenue that Rare can tap into to develop the game more.
-I was 100% against all the salty vets here that for years have trolled and ridiculed any new player coming here and their main issue was the bad pirates on the seas. And I dont mean bad that they were a pirate, it was the constant thing that comes with multiplayer/online gaming (kids behind computer screens) treating people poorly.
-Once the decision was made and Rare settled on PvEvP (the core game) and made it final (as you already mentioned the blackout of all PvE Server related posts going forward). That was it.
Rare breaks their word is a very simple and honest take to look at it. They made their word over and over. They made it in the mega-thread and they made it as you pointed out locking any new posts about it on the topic.
The purpose of my OP is really to show everyone that is spamming what to do with it now that it is announced, to realize what Ive realized years ago... that Rare does not care about what you think. Even if there are numerous requests for PvE over the years which can technically look like Rare is listening to our feedback, I do not recall M Chapman ever making a statement in response to the numerous posts over the years about this.
You have to look at the reality of the game. Its 5+ years old now. Its still supporting older Gen Xbox btw. The team is a fraction of what it once was (clearly by the amount of recycled content repackaged as 'new'). Rare is going to do their 'own' thing and people need to realize going forward that you cannot trust them. You can plead, whine, cope, whatever the new meme is these days about it. Feedback is only meant for you to feel good, nothing more.
It was a business decision in declining player numbers.
Also
"Rare does not owe the players anything really."
Except.. you know.. 5 years of the game being supported. The game being supported at launch.
Sea of Thieves is nothing without us. And eventually you're going to have to realize when numbers are low.
You can have sessions with nobody in a server (or very friendly) and technically those can be relaxing PvE-centric sails. Thats already possible (with/without alliance servers). For many though, its extremely boring because we want to be a 'pirate'.-
@lord-spark-0 I think there is a difference to someone listening to you - and someone having to comply 100% to everything you say.
What makes you think they did not listen, just because they took an approach you might not like?
What makes you think they did not listen, just because they changed their direction?To me it is very clear they did in fact listen - otherwise they would have never altered their course.
You are right of course: You cannot "trust" them - even though thats the wrong term imo.
Rare is allowed to do with their game whatever they see fitt. I have been in that situation too where I did not like certain decisions and complained about it. Fair enough. But at the end of the day everyone is allowed to his/her own decisions. And everyone is also allowed to change their opinions.
I feel this is one thing basically wrong with peoples relation to any form of celebrity: Whenever someone changes people get mad and call them traitors and liars, instead of allowing them to grow and develope like we "ordinary" people do.@lord-spark-0 I still do not really understand your intentions. You appear like just being personally hurt for them changing directions. Why are you hurt about it? What does it change for you personally? Or are you simply personally disappointed at them for changing their viewpoint on PvE - "just because"?
Of course it was a business decision. Those kind of decisions have to be business decisions. Always. There is no use in coming up with the best game idea ever if it only appeals to 3 people. This is not sustainable, and a service game needs to be sustainable, otherwise it cannot exist.
But helping business in this case is also helping players, dont you think? It keeps the game alive for a longer period, for players to enjoy.I do not understand your second line of thought with the "declining player numbers" either:
If you think the decision was one to counter decline, then if you also love the game, should you not be happy about it? Should you not hope it can counter that postulated decline effectivly?
What bad is there in trying to get more people into the game that you claim to love.
What do you want them to do for you specifically? As, you know, the long time, loyal player that you are?I think folks need to see this as an opportunity. Rare will do whatever you want as long as you complain about it long enough, even if they've stated they would absolutely never do that. FOV slider champions.....assemble. Don't let your dreams be dreams. We're all oh so motion sick, increased FOV when?
@amendelwyr I like safer sea as is since rare said adventures are here to stay I can hop on safer seas do the story hop back to high seas no more hunters cry ( we all know that's what caused safer seas)
Rare have clearly listened just not to everyone. The safer seas is a great idea because most of the PVP lovers don't fight fair and rarely fight ship to ship. A sword fight is rare and you're usually killed by someone who has left their ship with two guns equipped so they can kill you with no skill required and ruin the experience.
@dillrosso i love how prejudicte and negativity start when it comes to describing folks enjoying pvp too.
One folk almost jump from his pants with all that raging over pvp.
Game and personal expirience would greatly improve when you chill down and enjoy game for what it is.
most of the PVP lovers don't fight fair and rarely fight ship to ship.
Any fight be 1v1 of naval is a fair fight. You meant to say you don’t like being double gunned? Please do not skew the perception that just because someone uses a certain combination of weapons that makes them unfair fighters.
@parrotlord6426 said in Rare is not going to listen to you. 30% was to try to appease you.:
@lord-spark-0 I think there is a difference to someone listening to you - and someone having to comply 100% to everything you say.
What makes you think they did not listen, just because they took an approach you might not like?
I like their approach, I already made this clear to you. Because I see the potential for players that want to enjoy the PvE only content. At the very least, all TT's should have had this model. And our Sandbox should remain separated but that's my personal take on it.
What makes you think they did not listen, just because they changed their direction?
We already talked about this and you already commented on this. They made their positions clear here on the forums and in numerous vlogs on development. And the fact that moderators then locked any new threads asking for PvE only servers.
To me it is very clear they did in fact listen - otherwise they would have never altered their course.
Perhaps but M Chapman didn't directly say 'as a result of years of constant requests we decided...'
So until that happens, this is pure speculation. The obvious conclusion is player numbers are down and this is to appeal to people that have yet to try the game or have it and don't play because of the shared environment. So, Rare is betting that player numbers will go up with this. And if that means more emporium sales then everyone wins in my opinion.
You see, the salty vets here when they bashed new players coming here on this topic specifically don't realize that if you alienated these people then they won't be on the Seas anyways. Less players, everyone loses. Its a numbers game. More players in a live service game means more revenue streams..
You are right of course: You cannot "trust" them - even though thats the wrong term imo.
Rare is allowed to do with their game whatever they see fitt. I have been in that situation too where I did not like certain decisions and complained about it. Fair enough. But at the end of the day everyone is allowed to his/her own decisions. And everyone is also allowed to change their opinions.The cliche of 'Rare is allowed to do with their game whatever they see fit" is overused. Who's saying Rare isn't allowed to do this or that? Of course nobody. And if they did its meaningless because they are not a developer and can't do squak all about it..
I feel this is one thing basically wrong with peoples relation to any form of celebrity: Whenever someone changes people get mad and call them traitors and liars, instead of allowing them to grow and develope like we "ordinary" people do.
Again, that would be true but the problem Rare has is they already made their position known. So, with that comes consequence. This is an online service game of course you're going to feed feedback in all forms (negative included). We are human after all and everyone with a keyboard has something to say (social online commentary). Like it or not.
@lord-spark-0 said in Rare is not going to listen to you. 30% was to try to appease you.:
Again, that would be true but the problem Rare has is they already made their position known. So, with that comes consequence. This is an online service game of course you're going to feed feedback in all forms (negative included). We are human after all and everyone with a keyboard has something to say (social online commentary). Like it or not.
The thing about sot is it's not really a massive social space it's a relatively smaller community at the social level. That small town vibe has small town effects. The same people have been saying the same things for years, the same overly critical stuff has been going on for years, literally the same drama has been going on for years.
Rare already deals with it, they have dealt with pretty much the same social effects for years. That's why this really hasn't been that bad for such a large change. It's constantly there in this game, it's constant parroting and more and more just tune out of it and just play the game, or play other games.
That's why it'll be fine, too many are tuned out and uninterested in SoT hot takes these days to let the criticism and/or negatively impact them as much.
Rare isn't without any responsibility in this but at least they try to be productive, I think a lot of players are just gonna play or not play and some social drama/criticism really isn't gonna change much at all in the future. It's an exhausting (and at times personally harmful) way to participate and I think more are realizing that.
People don't play this game because it's perfect or because of sot social takes, they play it because they enjoy parts of the experience and that will still be here as long as the game is around. A massive amount of players in this game never even think about "Rare this/that" or "devs this/that" that's just a social space thing, the extreme minority of views.
@tesiccl You talk about perception like this thread isn't someone's random opinion about something that hasn't happened yet. There's no skill to abandoning ship miles away from the enemy and shooting them without instigation. You might say "It's a pirate game" like the rest of the people who can't form their own opinion but I'd implore you to look further than your griefing patrols with a crew and try a solo game with these "double gunners."
@dillrosso I play solo, I’m up against double gunners and people sweatier than me regularly, but I handle my own using counter tactics to lean the fight towards my strengths instead. I’ve found that boarders tend to be weaker at naval, so I have to force them into broadsides or out manoeuvre them to get the cannon advantage. It isn’t just game over the moment someone whips out the blunder and sniper.
@crowedhunter dijo en Rare is not going to listen to you. 30% was to try to appease you.:
@woozyaphid78158 Hey, sport. I think you should look into a method for communication called "positive positioning". It would really help you get your point across.
Why? We are customers and if we feel that the devs aren't listening it's because something is wrong, let people express, I agree with many points here.
@stomno said in Rare is not going to listen to you. 30% was to try to appease you.:
@crowedhunter dijo en Rare is not going to listen to you. 30% was to try to appease you.:
@woozyaphid78158 Hey, sport. I think you should look into a method for communication called "positive positioning". It would really help you get your point across.
Why? We are customers and if we feel that the devs aren't listening it's because something is wrong, let people express, I agree with many points here.
I think with parts of the sot community (in social areas) it becomes more like someone ate lunch at a place on a monday and 3 weeks later they are still there giving overly critical feedback about why they don't like it.
It's become more of a "game bad, devs wrong, not good enough" kind of vibe, to be fair some of that is directly instigated by the "every decision is a good decision" crowd but a lot of it has been bubble vs bubble as opposed to the constructive part being the priority.
No one is entirely responsible for that, it's a shared effort, but it is the effect of having social media being such a part of the experience. It gets pretty unproductive at some point. SoT definitely has reached that point in social spaces. Influencer and long term player hot takes are often very disconnected from the organic experience. The pve only crowd feels emboldened by safer seas so that's getting hot.
The ones that suffer are the people that just wanna play a game and are surrounded by drama. They can't even watch SoT content or get involved without just being bombarded with people looking to discourage others in the name of criticism.
@hiradc said in Rare is not going to listen to you. 30% was to try to appease you.:
@lord-spark-0 they said never pve so who knows
Exactly.
Prior evidence indicates that enough people ask enough times, Rare will give them what they want.
It's inevitable - it's only time now until they start "unrestricting" things in Safer Seas.
@wolfmanbush
You can talk about the streamers all you like, the overwhelming majority of veteran players are not streamers.You are trying to dismiss long-standing issues by just waving it away and saying "oh it happens in every game" and yet it happens A LOT more on SoT than most other games.
I didn't financially, socially or any other way, shape or form profit from playing this game and the same can be said for a lot of the veteran players who have enjoyed playing the game in an organic way while favouring some level of PvP.
Like I already said, nowhere did I state that I have an issue with Safer Seas itself. Personally I think it's a good idea if a bit harsh, with a 70% nerf to gold and rep they could've easily allowed for emissaries at the very least.
Also you calling veteran players entitled for wanting some problems fixed is very gaslighty behaviour.
You've essentially just put up a giant strawman by comparing all veteran players to some streamers and content creators.
