Guardians and Servants - An AI concept

You will be forcing a meta because theyre gonna be OP or they're going to be useless.

Rather not see bot crew added.

@pithyrumble I refer you to the Pre-emptive counter arguments 3, 4 and 5
Such a feature would not FORCE anything, merely give players options. Like everything it would need testing as to not be over or under powered.
The Powder monkeys wouldn't hit every shots even if the ships are side by side with another crew, in that event, they will mostly be doing deck shots and still managing to shoot too high doing not as much damage as you think and at a distance they would still be about as accurate if not less so than the phantoms. They also wouldn't be firing as fast as players or even other PvE cannons do such as skeletons and Phantoms

Bilge rats already exist in terms of the skeletons on the skeleton ships, those guys are known to be neither underpowered or overpowered, the only reason skeleton ships are easy to sink when you know what your doing is because they cant bucket same as this AI concept.

Everything will rely on players still from cannon shooting to repairing and bucketing your ship. This really wouldn't affect PvP at all, having an AI crewman would be no different than a useless open crew member on board. The only difference being a Bilge rat AI MIGHT repair your ship quick enough that a slight graze against a rock on your ship wont sink you whilst you sail to an outpost to sell your loot whilst that reaper in the distance comes closer

Why sail with your crew when you can have the OP bots do all the work for you? No thanks. I’d rather be encouraged to get a crew together for something than be handed NPCs.

Why stop at Hourglass, bring them along for the ride to Glitterbeard hideout? Once you introduce this kind of thing, it has to go everywhere else. Very against this.

@tesiccl literally who said they would be OP... no one, your just making assumptions. If they are less accurate than the phantoms but still able to occasionally hit things that's not OP.
I didn't say it's exclusively for the hourglass stuff, more people would use it for tall tales and PvE than anything else with how underpowered I'm imagining it to be.

Why stop at Hourglass, bring them along for the ride to Glitterbeard hideout? Once you introduce this kind of thing, it has to go everywhere else. Very against this.

Did you even bother reading my topic or just see the title and decided to instantly be negative? As I stated in the first paragraph under CONCEPT;

These AI will be bound to your ship, never able to leave, but are able to be slain

@pugwash9586 no thank you

@pugwash9586 still, no thanks.

@hiradc @Foambreaker @Tesiccl thanks for the bumps, you're more than welcome to stomp your feet at the mere idea but at the end of the day it is ultimately Rare's decision whether something like this would come about.
If you ask me, as the game gets older and player-base thins out (not right now) something like this could be a very helpful way to keep player numbers up. We are all aware at the state of open crews and LFGs are more hassle than their worth

The intent of this post is not to say "this MUST be put in the game" it's merely a suggestion, would I expect this idea to happen in the next 2 years? no. but that doesn't mean we can't speculate on the idea in a constructive way and think of ways it COULD be done, doesn't means it has to be or will be done.

There has been MANY posts suggesting such a thing over the years which goes to show there is interest for such an idea, I wouldn't go as far to say there is a demand for it, its not essential, but the same could be said for many features added over the last few years.

@Foambreaker 's knee jerk reaction of "no bots please" is typical of these forums I know, but I feel like I have gone into enough detail in my original post to explain this wouldn't be an overpowered feature that would result in a balance issue, and the "backlash" from the typical negative nancies is proof that not everyone would use such a feature, I even stated that I wouldn't use it all the time but have explained the utility and benefits for such a feature like when crews have to leave unexpectedly leaving you on a Galleon by yourself.

@pugwash9586 so because everyone disagreed with you we’re:

welcome to stomp our feet at the mere idea

And

negative nancies

12 hours, not a single upvote, and every reply against your idea. Sorry, thems the breaks.

The intent of this post is not to say "this MUST be put in the game" it's merely a suggestion, would I expect this idea to happen in the next 2 years? no. but that doesn't mean we can't speculate on the idea in a constructive way and think of ways it COULD be done, doesn't means it has to be or will be done.

Nobody owes you the right to debate your idea if it’s presented as suggestion or not. If there is overwhelming negativity to an idea, take it on the chin and move on. There’s no need to insult the character of forum members who are well within their right to criticise posts that are made, if you agree or not.

@tesiccl yes I am being hyperbolic, but these forums are rife with constant unconstructive criticism, not just to my ideas, I see many unique ideas shot down before they can ever take flight because of the same select people only wanting the game to be how they want with no regards to other players or to the devs future designs for the game. I have made many topics over the years, I wont claim them all to be original but have seen a number of things added which I have previously speculated on, some of which I didn't think would be added but nonetheless was pleasantly surprised to see, at least most of the time.

Take for instance a thread I made labelled "Lost souls - ferryman side quest" someone in that thread said it was the exact opposite of the ferryman is supposed to be, only for Rare to go and make a tall tale of almost the exact same concept

If you dont like the idea that is fine, I never said this is a must have to the game but just going "NO, dumb idea" is completely pointless and in my view antithetical to what a suggestion forums should be. Debate the pros and cons of the idea, simply providing negativity only drives people away from posting future ideas

@tesiccl said in Guardians and Servants - A comprehensive guide to AI concepts:

negative nancies

12 hours, not a single upvote, and every reply against your idea. Sorry, thems the breaks.

Upvotes really mean nothing here, I rarely see a post get more than 10 upvotes in a single month. As for your admission that every post is against the idea, that just emboldens my claim that these forums are filled with negativity and lack constructive debates.

The intent of this post is not to say "this MUST be put in the game" it's merely a suggestion, would I expect this idea to happen in the next 2 years? no. but that doesn't mean we can't speculate on the idea in a constructive way and think of ways it COULD be done, doesn't means it has to be or will be done.

Nobody owes you the right to debate your idea if it’s presented as suggestion or not. If there is overwhelming negativity to an idea, take it on the chin and move on. There’s no need to insult the character of forum members who are well within their right to criticise posts that are made, if you agree or not.

Okay, you want to criticise the idea, fine please do, but I have already given my counter arguments to the knee jerk reactions I have seen in other similar threads talking about such a feature as to avoid the same debates over and over though that hasn't stopped some of you and simply saying "NO" is just quite frankly pointless.
I had already addressed the fact that such a feature would have to not be overpowered if it were to be added but that didn't stop you from calling them "OP bots" and then you go on to disingenuously write "why stop there, bring them along for the ride to Glitterbeard hideout" completely ignoring the fact I said they would have to be bound to the ships. So if you aren't even going to read the original post, why bother replying?

If you don't wish to debate, let the thread get buried under the 20th topic whining about the announcement of safer seas. I haven't insulted anyone beyond attributing a silly title to people who have been nothing but negative, negativity is fine, I disagree with lots of people's idea here too but yet I will still try to be constructive and speculate ways on how their suggestion could be implemented, or offer an alternative. I will always try to avoid simply going "NO"

@pugwash9586

I am being hyperbolic.

Thank you. Happy sailing! :)

@pugwash9586

AI friendly bots will always be either OP or useless.

I would as a research project to suggest playing Dragon's Dogma and Wo Long

@pithyrumble said in Guardians and Servants - A comprehensive guide to AI concepts:

@pugwash9586

AI friendly bots will always be either OP or useless.

I would as a research project to suggest playing Dragon's Dogma and Wo Long

How are we to know this unless we test such a feature out first though? I just think such a statement is too black and white for an idea that hasn't been tested (to my knowledge)

Take the bilge rat skeletons on the skeleton ships for instance, no matter how much they repair, with enough holes and no one to bucket water they will always sink. Of course if added to player owned ships they would have to be much slower and inefficient, players would still need to make repairs themselves of course, otherwise it would be OP, and only the players could bucket water.

As for the Powder Monkeys, as I have tried to say a number of times, they would not be crack shots than can hit every shot at max range but nor would they miss every single close to mid range shot.
Lets say for example a player can fire one cannonball every second, the powder monkey would be able to fire one cannonball every 5 seconds and on average only hit one to 3 times for every 10 cannons they shoot. This would be more than manageable for enemy crews to counter and PvE threats like skeleton ships could easily out gun this and even dive back below the water if a player only relied on the AI to shoot. All it would really mean is that there is something left shooting whilst the player crews focus on repairs or helm control before coming back to the cannon themselves.

I would as a research project to suggest playing Dragon's Dogma and Wo Long

We can take any friendly AI from other games and say the same thing would be OP in SoT because those games create the AI to be somewhat reliable. I could say the AI in the left 4 dead series are overpowered aimbots that lock on to special infected before they even appear around a corner or over a rooftop, but then you get pinned by a charger and have to sit there watching as the AI fumble around you, shooting regular infected and reloading before finally shooting the charger by which time you are already downed or dead. I think its a valid point but also see it as a bit of a false equivalency

Perhaps if such a feature were to come, it would be unavailable to sloops and only allow one aboard a brigantine and only 2 to galleons provided a player is currently alone in the crew. As soon as that 2nd crewmate joins one AI is removed so that the ships are always considered 1 crewman down until all crew slots are filled by actual players.

It really wouldn't be hard for Rare to do. They already have most of the AI in place to operate such things, they've made it work with Jack Sparrow on the quests, and as you said; the skeletons' framework would apply quite well for balancing.

See, what these people that have been so negative about is that they feel they must enjoy the game a certain way. That you must have public crew or you must have friends to play with or you must seek adventures with a completely random crewmember off some official (or less official) source. That's not up to these players to decide for my sandbox...

There are plenty of other titles that give you AI to help manage "SHIPS" and "ENGAGING THE GAME." I will point out Warframe as an example. They have player ships that are a bit difficult to use alone. But there are crew-members that are not as competent as players, that make playing the game alone easier and/or possible.

I think this is an important thing we players should consider; because we're in the minority here on the forums as for speaking to the ideas.

Personally, I don't like Servants or Guardians as the cliche attachment to an AI crewman's identity. But getting an AI-"Pirate" on demand as a reward for a player getting to a certain level of reputation with each of the factions. I think tying it in that way is probably a better idea. Especially if you can set as a captained ship, AI that fill in when there are LavenderBeard (or any other beard for that matter) errors that sometimes unfairly dictate the course of an adventure...

I'm all for it!

@pugwash9586 the irony that you accuse others of foot stomping.

The reason I didn't bother trying to explain why I don't want it as its clear from your tone and other responses that it doesn't matter what people think.

This is an example of the type of requests that will sadly increase now that safer seas has been announced.

In a game that is meant to be about player interactions. Well they've announced private servers, so why not additional ai.

The arrogance of your 'preemptive counter arguments' implies you don't understand the point of this.

This is a forum, for discussion. You present an idea then community discuss. Just because you've gone to lots of effort in your post does not make it any more or less valid.

There are some posts that just scream you must be new here because they completely counter the feel of sea of thieves.

@amendelwyr Thanks for the reply

It really wouldn't be hard for Rare to do. They already have most of the AI in place to operate such things, they've made it work with Jack Sparrow on the quests, and as you said; the skeletons' framework would apply quite well for balancing.

Exactly my thought's I know the Jack Sparrow one was sort of more scripted but the skeleton framework is right there to borrow and tweak

See, what these people that have been so negative about is that they feel they must enjoy the game a certain way. That you must have public crew or you must have friends to play with or you must seek adventures with a completely random crewmember off some official (or less official) source. That's not up to these players to decide for my sandbox...

Precisely, I wouldn't know what Rare's intentions are for the future but just because it doesn't look like they have any immediate plans for something right away doesn't mean we as players cant speculate, it's not as though I'm suggesting a farming feature or something that takes away from the pirating experience, I understand the fears on balancing issues but that's the same with everything for example, day 1 players will remember we only had one kind of gunpowder keg, now we have kegs that can sink a sloop in mere seconds even when they blow up on the next ship over.

There are plenty of other titles that give you AI to help manage "SHIPS" and "ENGAGING THE GAME." I will point out Warframe as an example. They have player ships that are a bit difficult to use alone. But there are crew-members that are not as competent as players, that make playing the game alone easier and/or possible.

As you say, as long as they aren't as useful as actual crew members I really dont see the issue, better a niche feature that is slightly underpowered which enhances the experience for some than it being overpowered and spoiling it for all.

I think this is an important thing we players should consider; because we're in the minority here on the forums as for speaking to the ideas.

Agreed, to me that is quite literally the point of these forums, of course we can discuss current features and the tweaks they need but beyond that we should be speculating on new ideas and how to balance them as well instead of shooting down ideas with knee jerk reactions

Personally, I don't like Servants or Guardians as the cliche attachment to an AI crewman's identity. But getting an AI-"Pirate" on demand as a reward for a player getting to a certain level of reputation with each of the factions. I think tying it in that way is probably a better idea. Especially if you can set as a captained ship, AI that fill in when there are LavenderBeard (or any other beard for that matter) errors that sometimes unfairly dictate the course of an adventure...

That is totally fair, I think when I was initially thinking of the idea I wanted a clear distinction from Players and AI but the more I think about it, if they were just regular pirates found in the taverns, sea posts or dotted around islands it would suit the everyday pirate much better. Plus if they were just regular pirates, Captains could set the crew uniforms for some uniformity.

I also didn't mean to insinuate that this feature was solely for Athena/Reaper players which may have confused some people, perhaps I shall edit the post to remove the Guardian/Servant aspect later, I wouldn't call them "cabin boys" as lopasi suggested in their thread for the sole reason that my captained ship is already called "Cabin Boy" lol

Either way, I thank you for a genuine and comprehensive reply, I am by no means looking for praise without criticism (after all, what is the point of posting if we cant discuss), when I post but responses like yours are a breathe of fresh air lol

@hiradc said in Guardians and Servants - A comprehensive guide to AI concepts:

@pugwash9586 the irony that you accuse others of foot stomping.

I mean, can you really be surprised I get annoyed when I take the time to not only think about an idea but carefully format it in a way for people to be able to go back to certain section without sifting through a wall of text, just for people to go "No thank you" or "OP bad idea"

The reason I didn't bother trying to explain why I don't want it as its clear from your tone and other responses that it doesn't matter what people think.

It absolutely matter what people think, but at the end of the day, this is all speculation, you know? It's not to say it's definitely going to be added, the purpose of the thread was to think about way this could be incorporated, not for people to instantly shoot it down.

This is an example of the type of requests that will sadly increase now that safer seas has been announced.

"Sadly" maybe for you, maybe for others it will enhance the experience, I seriously doubt there would be many people who use this feature 100% of the time and never sail with another real player again.

In a game that is meant to be about player interactions. Well they've announced private servers, so why not additional ai.

This does not take away from player interactions in the slightest, the intent of the idea is to be a temporary replacement of crewmates until new ones are found, and it in no way takes away from the experience of meeting other crews on the server

The arrogance of your 'preemptive counter arguments' implies you don't understand the point of this.

The reason I made that section is because I actually took the effort to read back on previous similar discussions and see what peoples disagreements were, I then tried to fix their issues with the detailed explanation of the post. Its not arrogance and that's disingenuous of you to say so.

This is a forum, for discussion. You present an idea then community discuss. Just because you've gone to lots of effort in your post does not make it any more or less valid.

Yes, and simply typing "no thank you" is not a discussion is it?
I'm not saying because I've put effort in makes it valid, every topic is valid simply because of the nature of this discussion board. If we aren't here to discuss ideas then why use this forum at all?

There are some posts that just scream you must be new here because they completely counter the feel of sea of thieves.

Ah, more disingenuousness, I am a day 1 player with over 400 days logged into these forums, simply clicking on my name would have told you that second part as well as the fact I am not a castaway rank below my name.
They may counter the feelings of your views of the Sea of Thieves, but your view isn't the only view is it? This is a sandbox game where players can play in any way they can imagine, and AI crews are a potential that could add a great deal towards the game, though we'll never know if the only responses are "no thank you"...

I mean, can you really be surprised I get annoyed when I take the time to not only think about an idea but carefully format it in a way for people to be able to go back to certain section without sifting through a wall of text, just for people to go "No thank you" or "OP bad idea"

So you get annoyed when people disagree with you and don’t want to debate yet you feel you are owed this?

its clear from your tone and other responses that it doesn't matter what people think.

Agreed.

@tesiccl said in Guardians and Servants - A comprehensive guide to AI concepts:

I mean, can you really be surprised I get annoyed when I take the time to not only think about an idea but carefully format it in a way for people to be able to go back to certain section without sifting through a wall of text, just for people to go "No thank you" or "OP bad idea"

So you get annoyed when people disagree with you and don’t want to debate yet you feel you are owed this?

What is the point in using a feedback forum if you aren't going to give feedback... Just look as what Amendelwyr said where he effectively said he wouldn't want it to be an Athena phantom/ Reaper skeleton and instead be like a regular pirate NPC.
That's a valid criticism as not everyone cares for the Athena/Reaper stuff, myself included really.
Simply typing 1 sentence replies without offering anything constructive is just pointless and a waste of everyone time, I'm well aware some players aren't in favour of such an idea but to simply write a dismissal which I have already tried to provide a counter argument too is just people being "negative Nancies"

its clear from your tone and other responses that it doesn't matter what people think.

Agreed.

Which is false and disingenuous of you to say so. I actually try to provide counter arguments with every player in mind where as it seems most of the people who have shut the idea down are doing so from their viewpoint only. If there was more than one person here to provide legitimate criticism I'd be more than happy to address that too but let's look at the "criticism" once more shall we;

Theyre gonna be OP or they're going to be useless.

I stated they would have to be less powerful than skeletons on skeleton ships and less accurate than phantom ships

Why sail with your crew when you can have the OP bots do all the work for you? No thanks. I’d rather be encouraged to get a crew together for something than be handed NPCs.

See the reply above.
As for forming a crew, nothing in this idea stops that, you are more than welcome, but as I stated earlier, maybe your crew isn't able to sail for 30 minutes and you dont wish to be left alone on a Galleon by yourself, nor do you want to leave the server because your ship is nicely stocked

Why stop at Hourglass

I later realised they may have misinterpreted this when talking to the one constructive user. but then they go on to say

bring them along for the ride to Glitterbeard hideout?

Which is either disingenuous or they didn't actually read the OP where I said, and bolded These AI will be bound to your ship

@pugwash9586 no thank you
No bots please
still, no thank you

very constructive to the debate..
There's the saying if you've not got anything nice to say dont say anything at all, I would extend that too these forums with; if you have nothing constructive to say dont post anything at all, as it doesn't expand ideas or create creative debate, just further spreads negative energy which is responsible for "my tone"

12 hours, not a single upvote, and every reply against your idea. Sorry, thems the breaks.

Was quite frankly the most pathetic response of them all as these forums are extremely under used by the wider player base mostly in part to the negative and unconstructive nature of a select few which have now become the majority.

I would as a research project to suggest playing Dragon's Dogma and Wo Long

A somewhat valid response to which I provided by own experience with AI teammates from games like Left for Dead in which even though you may have multiple AI helping you, it doesn't guarantee you a win in every scenario. It ultimately relies on player decisions.

If I didn't care what other thought about this idea, I wouldn't have replied to them. It's as simple as that, "my tone" is only that way because of the nature of these replies as I have already said. I've seen and read the previous topics concerning such an idea and didn't want to go round in circles saying the same things that have already been said but even with the addition of a pre-emptive counter argument section people still chose to ignore it and type the same things.

Soo... absolutely massive amounts of coding, nightmare to balance, intricate system that would need extensive testing and tuning...

...because you're either bad at a vital role and want to solo lsrger ships, or you cant seem to get/form/retain a team for said ships.

Sounds neat.. but nah.

@crowedhunter said in Guardians and Servants - A comprehensive guide to AI concepts:

I wanna assign one to crows nest to tell me on chat when I'm about to run into something.

Lol, like a Na'Vi from the Zelda games? That'd be really funny. Some voice-acting included to call out "Watch out!"
It's an interesting thing too, as it could be useful overall to tell the player things they couldn't really learn about if they were on the ferry or stuff like that, y'know?

ADD IT.

@soulstinger2k20 said in Guardians and Servants - A comprehensive guide to AI concepts:

Soo... absolutely massive amounts of coding, nightmare to balance, intricate system that would need extensive testing and tuning...

We already have coding that it can easily piggy-back on already made. They only require sliders to add on to it. So, no, it's not a nightmare to balance, code, or make overly complicated...

@soulstinger2k20 said in Guardians and Servants - A comprehensive guide to AI concepts:

...because you're either bad at a vital role and want to solo lsrger ships, or you cant seem to get/form/retain a team for said ships.

@Amendelwyr already replied what I would have for the first part (ty buddy), just wanted to say this 2nd section is extremely childish and unnecessary.

Especially with the safer seas option this could be a very neat addition to that it would also have to be in main game after as apparently want no special features for safer seas alone.

@crowedhunter said in Guardians and Servants - A comprehensive guide to AI concepts:

I wanna assign one to crows nest to tell me on chat when I'm about to run into something.

equips pocketwatch "Watch it matey!" Lol