What Is The Current Stance on Spawn Camping With Intent To Force A Scuttle?

@ghostpaw a dit dans What Is The Current Stance on Spawn Camping With Intent To Force A Scuttle? :

@jolly-ol-yep said in What Is The Current Stance on Spawn Camping With Intent To Force A Scuttle?:

Because the developers of this game decided to reward losers some allegiance, and scuttling doesn't give you any ?

Sounds like a reason to either advocate for granting the loser nothing, or granting the person who scuttles the same allegiance as losers. Make the two result in equivalent outcomes.

Doesn't sound like that to me at all.

We're not talking about how to optimize loss farming, we're talking about toxic players deliberately doing their best so that their opponent has 0 XP. Not the same issue. They used to sail you out of bounds while repairing your ship, now they're spawn-killing since OOB losses are now - and rightfully - rewarded.

The game decided to reward losers who try. Those guys act as vigilantes and prevent that. They're the issue. Not the losers, not the loss-farmers, not the system.

You're distorting what I said here, I was merely answering to the "nah, let them scuttle" people

@ghostpaw said in What Is The Current Stance on Spawn Camping With Intent To Force A Scuttle?:

@jolly-ol-yep said in What Is The Current Stance on Spawn Camping With Intent To Force A Scuttle?:

Because the developers of this game decided to reward losers some allegiance, and scuttling doesn't give you any ?

Sounds like a reason to either advocate for granting the loser nothing, or granting the person who scuttles the same allegiance as losers. Make the two result in equivalent outcomes.

That sets a horrible precedent for interactions outside of hourglass battles. It would be Rare saying "yes it's totally OK to spawn camp players until they either scuttle or quit."

Do you honestly think Rare would set that precedent? C'mon now.

@sweetsandman said:

Arena had a points system that rewarded you for killing other players. In hourglass, it serves no purpose outside of forcing the other player to forfeit their progression. If you can spawn camp someone endlessly, you can sail them out of bounds or fire strat them. Don't act like those aren't infinitely better options for winning an hg battle than forcing someone to scuttle.

Lol at the risk of going in another circle with you, I'm just going to point out that there was value in that sort of PvP practice in Arena, even if it didn't award points.

I didn't camp or subject myself to camping so that I could get a measly 10 points per kill. I did it so that I would be more proficient in those situations, when it required me to be. Practice.

Similarly, in hourglass, I agree with you that there are better options to sink a ship. But if someone is only trying to work on their aim, or practice locking down a ship, why would they try to sink said ship?

To be clear, again, I'm not saying that OP's camper was behaving purely with the intent to practice. Idk what happened, but if they waited around for an hour, they may have intended to be toxic.

I just think it's a bit narrow minded to ascribe all camping (without aiming to sink) to toxicity or bullying.

@ghostpaw said in What Is The Current Stance on Spawn Camping With Intent To Force A Scuttle?:

@sweetsandman We clearly have very different thoughts about scuttling. Especially outside of hourglass. I see it as a safety hatch to escape a bad situation. Nothing more. I do not agree with condemning a crew for gaining and maintaining control of another crew’s ship when the losing crew can accept the loss and escape the situation at any time.

We have the same view on scuttling. No issues there. I wholeheartedly agree that more players should be aware of it and more players should lay their egos down and use it.

We have different views on the intent of the other crews involved in the "bad situation".

The syphoning supplies argument is dead. What's left? What purpose would a crew have for spawn camping another crew and not trying to sink their ship?

Fire strat is quick. "But what if they don't have firebombs?"

Ramming a ship into an object to create holes is quick. "But what if we're in an hourglass battle and there's nothing in the circle to ram them into?"

For hourglass battles, sailing them out of bounds is WAY quicker.

If you're good enough to spawn camp a crew until they lay their ego down and quit/scuttle, you're most definitely good enough to fire strat/ram-strat/sail out of bounds.

Don't pretend like those aren't all much better options than flexing your TDM skills on some swabbies until they give up.

Again, I totally agree that more people need to more quickly get to the "lay their ego down" part and just scuttle...but you know the old adage...two wrongs don't make a right.

@theblackbellamy

Your lone argument harks back to "practice"...fine.

I'd put it back on you then...if you asked Rare "Hey is it cool if I spawncamp players until they scuttle/quit since I'm just using them for practice?"

What do you think Rare's response would be?

@sweetsandman said:

Your lone argument harks back to "practice"...fine.

I mean, yeah dude. "Practice" was my whole point while disagreeing with the notion that camping (without sinking) is never acceptable.

I'd put it back on you then...if you asked Rare "Hey is it cool if I spawncamp players until they scuttle/quit since I'm just using them for practice?"

What do you think Rare's response would be?

🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️

theblackbellamy said:

... if someone is doing it truly with the intent to practice, not to be toxic, in opt-in PvP, why wouldn't that be justified? Imo that shouldn't warrant a punishment. Rare disagrees, of course. We can agree to do so too.

theblackbellamy said:

... I know better. And I like all my stuff. Never had a yellow. Don't want one. No thanks.

I'm well aware what their response would be lol. Doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

The kangaroo court hands out guilty verdicts as intent is difficult to prove in this context. So why bother, right?

Whether they're just trying to get better at PvP, or rodl-spamming and bucketing, camping one person for over an hour: chuck 'em in the same bin. Easy fix.

@theblackbellamy

So you acknowledge that even as a form of practice, Rare would frown upon spawn camping players until they scuttle/quit. Yet you're still in here arguing that it's acceptable.

You and I will have to agree to disagree on that...but Rare is the ultimate decider.

@sweetsandman said:

So you acknowledge that even as a form of practice, Rare would frown upon spawn camping players until they scuttle/quit. Yet you're still in here arguing that it's acceptable.

You and I will have to agree to disagree on that...but Rare is the ultimate decider.

Yeah man, like several posts ago I acknowledged that lol. Seems there's been a pretty big disconnect in this back-and-forth.

Anyway, I wasn't arguing that it is acceptable. I was arguing why it should be acceptable in some instances, despite what Rare (and you) feel.

Hopefully we can end this on the agreement that, yes, Rare is the ultimate decider. I'll abide by those rules. Doesn't change my opinion though. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@impsassy I haven't read all the posts in this thread because there are too many and my post may overlap with the previous one. But my answer is this:

If a player has damaged your ship and killed you, that's his right, it's not forbidden, but if your ship is not flooded and a player has taken over your ship to kill you and anger you, and this happens over a long period of time, then that player will get a permanent account block when you report it to RARE. As far as I know, RARE classifies such behaviour under the term "red beard", which is punishable by permanent blocking.

@theblackbellamy said in What Is The Current Stance on Spawn Camping With Intent To Force A Scuttle?:

I just think it's a bit narrow minded to ascribe all camping (without aiming to sink) to toxicity or bullying.

The point, and the failing of your position, is that this is camping with the aim to sink, but by scuttling. The OP is about camping with the intent to force scuttling, or camping until someone scuttles. Camping until someone scuttles, with the intent and purpose to camp until they scuttle is always unacceptable, by definition. You say "what if they were practicing?", the problem is that in so doing you're changing the terms, because that's not camping until they scuttle, or to force them to scuttle, its camping until you get better. If you're actually camping to practice there is, presumably, a non-zero chance of you stopping before they scuttle as you believe you've practiced sufficiently. Camping until someone scuttles is by definition problematic, and it is by definition not camping until you have practiced sufficiently. You can say that there are reasons to camp, but everyone agrees there are reasons to camp, no-one has denied that, the point is that it is never justifiable to camp with the intent to force a scuttle or with the intention of so doing until someone scuttles.

@ghostpaw said in What Is The Current Stance on Spawn Camping With Intent To Force A Scuttle?:

I do not agree with condemning a crew for gaining and maintaining control of another crew’s ship when the losing crew can accept the loss and escape the situation at any time.

The question is, why are they gaining and maintaining control of the other crew's ship? If their sole purpose in so doing is to deny the other player progress by forcing a scuttle, when there is no advantage at all to them, why is that not bad behavior?

@gtothefo said:

The point, and the failing of your position, is that this is camping with the aim to sink, but by scuttling. The OP is about...

Lol yeah, interesting that you didn't include the few lines of text just before the quote you cherrypicked out.

As I said to you last time, I gave my thoughts on OP's situation already; and without knowing what the camper's intent was, all I can say is that it is unfortunate that OP stuck it out for an hour. And also that I feel scuttling (after 1 death) in hourglass matches should reward losing-XP.

The comments that you seem to keep getting hung up on pertained to camping (without aiming to sink) in general, suggesting that when the intent is known, and it is to PvP practice/aim-train, that it should be acceptable, despite what Rare's policy actually is. At least in my opinion.

Eh, nice try though.

@personalc0ffee said:

All spawn camping behavior that is not actively sinking a boat or has mutual crew agreement, is NOT allowed and you can and will be reported and subject to account infraction.

Players need to understand this. It doesn't matter if you don't agree. Those are the rules.

Yeah, thanks.

I've been here long enough, Coffee. I know what the rules are. I know it doesn't matter if I don't agree.

Just offering an opinion on a topic; wasn't reciting Rare's policy.

@personalc0ffee said:

Weren't you the one that just said you were forcing TDM and spawn camping behavior on other players against their wishes as a means of aim practicing?

Oh give me a break, Coffee. It was Arena. Everyone camped in Arena. I also said I let others camp me, as I tried to break out of it.

"Forcing"... "Against their wishes." Arena was opt-in PvP; hourglass is opt-in PvP.

I'll never fully understand this community lol. You don't need consent from an opponent to PvP them in literally any other way, but if you get on their ship, better make sure they have holes in them! Otherwise it's harassment! Very silly.

Anyway, I feel I've said all I can on this topic, and I'm moving on now haha. You feel that strongly against my PvP practice back in Arena, report me.

@theblackbellamy said in What Is The Current Stance on Spawn Camping With Intent To Force A Scuttle?:

The comments that you seem to keep getting hung up on pertained to camping (without aiming to sink) in general, suggesting that when the intent is known, and it is to PvP practice/aim-train, that it should be acceptable, despite what Rare's policy actually is. At least in my opinion.

That's not in general though, is it, that's very specific. How is the intent known in this instance, exactly? The point is, which you avoided, and I can't much blame you, is, would this theoretical practice session be possible to end when sufficient practice has taken place and lead to sinking the opponent yourself, or can it only ever end with scuttling? Because if it can only ever end with scuttling, you're not doing it to practice, you're doing it to make someone scuttle. Its not what you're doing while camping that's the question, its the intent of the camping. If your session cannot, even in theory, end in any way other than the opponent scuttling then your intention isn't to train, its to force a scuttle, training is just what you're doing while you wait.

@ghostpaw said in What Is The Current Stance on Spawn Camping With Intent To Force A Scuttle?:

This is going to be tough for some of you. Who cares? Why do you care what is in their mind. All these posts from people assuming they can read minds. It is just behavior. It isn't good. It isn’t bad. Do we question the moral judgement of the kraken for attacking boats when there is nothing for the kraken to gain? Do we call for the banishment of skeleton ships when they sink a player and then leave without gathering the loot before it sinks? Of course not. We curse the situation, hopefully learn from it, and move on. But because there is a player doing it, now we have a problem? Who cares? Just scuttle. You are opting to remain in the situation as long as you refuse to do so.

Its rare that I see a more clear case of false equivalency. Let's take your example as though it isn't ridiculous, in what way does the kraken have nothing to gain? Attacking and trying to destroy player ships is this part of the program's raison d'etre, doing so is its literal reason for existing, its gain is pure and ultimate. It fulfils its absolute essence by doing it. It is its purpose, as turning a screw is for a screwdriver, it exists before its essence, it is a being in itself. Humans are not, humans are self defining entities, their purpose in existing is not trolling others, so we judge them differently, quite reasonably.

In response, when skeletons pop out of nowhere right next to you then you don't have a problem with that. If a player pops out of nowhere right next to you, you report them. Why? Because they're breaking the rules. When players break the rules in a game, we stop them, because that's the whole point of games. Camping is against the rules as laid out by Rare, hence the fact that it can get you banned, play by the rules, or accept the punishment, what's so strange about that?

The reason to not scuttle is because if you don't they may eventually break and sink you. If you scuttle you get nothing, you quit for no reward, if you don't scuttle you may get a reward, each second they might be about to think that its not worth the waste of time just to punish you. If you wait in queue for a battle for half an hour, and spend fifteen minutes trapped on the ferry by a camper, aren't you a fool not to stick in for another fifteen minutes? Why on earth would you accept nothing over something in return for just waiting?

This belief that because I feel badly about an outcome that someone needs to pay seems absurd to me. Emotional reasoning. If it is a player that won then we try to ban them. If it is the storm, kraken, flaming boulder, geyser, sniping skeletons, or whatever environmental threat we lost to then post on the forums to get it nerfed and maybe even curse the developers responsible for putting it into the game. Maybe Rare made a huge shift when I wasn’t looking.

The belief is that there is an agreement in joining the magic circle of this game that this form of making someone feel bad is not part of the agreement of playing. Which is made clear by the banning of players. There are all manner of things we agree not to allow, this happens to be one of them, that's the difference.

@pumpa-cat said in What Is The Current Stance on Spawn Camping With Intent To Force A Scuttle?:

Rare doesn’t ban people for scuttling their own ships. They even suggest you do it in that parchment nailed to the wall next to the respawning door on the Ferry of the Damned.

I think your mixing up what they are saying, this is asking if its bannable to force some one else to scuttle intentionally, not if it is bannable to scuttle your self. If it was bannable to scuttle your self then they wouldnt have added the button.

@ghostpaw a dit dans What Is The Current Stance on Spawn Camping With Intent To Force A Scuttle? :

[...] in this game centered on thievery.

Well it certainy isn't called Sea of Serial-Killers, or Sea of Assassins either, is it ?

@ghostpaw said in What Is The Current Stance on Spawn Camping With Intent To Force A Scuttle?:

Nice try, but no. You claim humans are at the same time self-defining and yet defined by some purpose that does not fall within your definition of trolling. You seem to be of two minds on this. But strip away the emotional language of “trolling” because we do not know what the other person’s intent is. The developers have not released a version of the game that lets players sail on a private sea without other players. They fully expect us to interact with other crews. They have been very clear and consistent about this. We are meant to help or inhibit each other in this game centered on thievery. The developers have defined our role within SoT. When we enter the game we agree to this shared existence. We are never sure if another crew or player has good or bad intent towards us. Take that away and many of us agree that the game would be worse for it. That is our role in this world. That is why we share similar aspects with the other obstacles built into the game.

Very poor try. No, I did not say that humans are defined by a purpose other than trolling, I said that their purpose is not defined by trolling, because their purpose is undefined. There was nothing within my statement that contradicted this, apart from the bit you incorrectly assumed. Also, we do know the other person's intent because, as the OP stated, they stated their intent by pointing out that they were using a twelve hour long macro to wait them out. The developers have released a game, certainly, and then they have spent a good deal of time, effort and expense on maintaining a basic level of behavior and respect in that game. If they just wanted everyone to be thrown into a bear pit together there wouldn't any sort of reporting process, banning or responses. The developer's responses to player activity outlines quite clearly what their intention for the purpose of players in the game is, and one of those things is not to spawn camp willfully, certainly not to spawn camp while insulting the other player because you judge their behavior to be problematic.

No one can make you feel bad in this game without your permission. Your mindset and attitude alone will determine that. It isn’t what they do that matters. It is what you believe about them and yourself that will determine your thoughts, feelings, and actions in response to what happens.

How can you believe what you want about them when they tell you that they're intentionally tormenting you because they think you're a disease on the game? Really, the idea that you can feel however you like as someone is intentionally insulting you is some high level victim blaming, are there any insults or slurs you do have a problem with? Or any sort of behavior fine because you can feel however you like about it?

@jolly-ol-yep said in What Is The Current Stance on Spawn Camping With Intent To Force A Scuttle?:

@ghostpaw a dit dans What Is The Current Stance on Spawn Camping With Intent To Force A Scuttle? :

[...] in this game centered on thievery.

Well it certainy isn't called Sea of Serial-Killers, or Sea of Assassins either, is it ?

Oh come now, everyone knows that thievery is directly equivalent to murdering someone, killing all their friends, burning down their house and desecrating their corpse, what choice do people really have? They're just roleplaying the title.

@ghostpaw said in What Is The Current Stance on Spawn Camping With Intent To Force A Scuttle?:

Well, the concept has been a core aspect of several empirically well supported psychological interventions for depression, anxiety, PTSD and so on. It isn’t the situation but what we think about it that often determines our emotional response. But you do you. Seems like a lot of power to give someone else you don’t even know.

So, is that avoidance of the question a yes to "Are you saying that there is no insult or slur you have a problem with in the game?"?

@ghostpaw said in What Is The Current Stance on Spawn Camping With Intent To Force A Scuttle?:

Of course not. This seems rather basic. I don’t have to be emotionally activated to report that kind of thing. Look through my post history and you will see I have consistently encouraged people to mute, block, and possibly report players for that.

It might seem rather basic, but its literally what we're in the middle of talking about. This is a thread about someone calling another player a cancer on the game, and you're literally in the middle of saying that they should have walked away and that if they found it upsetting that was on them.

Edit: We are way out in left field here. I will not pursue this part of the thread any further. It is getting absurd at this point.

If I was you, I'd walk away at this point too.