Guardians of Fortune & Servants of the Flame Should Not Exist

  • Red0Demon0
    Commander
    Insider

    It has always been a key focus in this game that it may remain pvpve, with a reciprocal symbiotic relationship between pvp and pve components.

    I feel that these new factions, Guardians and Servants, work in opposition of this ideal and ultimately against the game's core concepts, becoming a confusing and convoluted mess in the way it is portrayed, expressed, and experienced.

    The new factions are portrayed as a pvp only faction with little to no significance in the pve aspect. These factions serve to further confuse and erode the game's core concepts considering we already have pvp focused factions within the game, the Reapers. Athenas Fortune, itself could potentially become a pvp faction as well considering they are the counter part to the Reapers in a plethora of ways. With these factions in game, I wonder why there was even a need to make additional factions in the game. These new factions are so limited, that they erode both aspects, pvp and pve. Take a look at how they are expressed, for example, pvp players can't take any treasure found in pve through the matchmaking, there is no incentive to even do so, and for those defending in pve, the incentive to grind out and stash treasure is too insignificant for players to even care to do so in the first place, the risks are simply to great for the rewards, an insignificant amount of rep only. The result? No extra gold can be gained for attackers and no significant incentive provided for defending pve gains.

    The new factions aren't just confusing to the concept, they are confusing to the player in terms of commendation. Think about this, why does servants not receive extra commendation, gold, or reputation for selling emissary flags? After all, the servant faction itself (and Guardians) has a good and strong relationship to emissaries and flag collection, more so than they do to the reapers or Athena faction. In terms of Guardians, you sell emissary flags to the stranger, the same person that you sell Athena treasure too, but you can't sell the same emissary flags for Athena, as it does not allow you to. However, for reapers, they do allow you to sell reapers flag without servants faction, and yet selling emissary flags provide no rewards to the new factions themselves. Treasure selling is also already going to their respective factions.

    On that note, treasure shouldn't disappear from the ship when choosing to matchmake for guardians or servants, it should allow players to risk or gamble their own treasure for bonus rep and gold on successful sinks, and defenders should be provided a gold boost and greater rep gain for successfully defending more treasure on the ship.

    This isn't just where the issues end though, gold, rep, and commendation distribution is also a convoluted mess. If new commendations are added where does one draw the line between what belongs to reapers and what belongs to Servants? The distinction may be more apparent with the opposition but it is still confusing as logically and lore wise, Athena should also provide commendation, gold, and rep rewards for sinking reapers ship... or is it servant ships... or both? ... or is it perhaps guardians that should provide them? Both should provide them? for sinking whom? Reapers? Servants? Both?

    Are the guardians and Athenas or Reapers and servants not technically the same faction?

    Then you have to deal with the empty and lackluster reputation gain for both factions, this is no surprise, it's a clear and reasonable critique that many players have stated before. I think we can all agree that the amount of complaints about how long it takes to unlock the main rewards for these 2 factions lay in the majority of the players base. One reason I suspect this is happening is because there is no reward between 1-99. 99 lvls of grind and hundreds of ships sunk and nearly nothing to show for it. Would it not just be best to merge both rep systems at this point?

    Conclusion
    As a result of these points I've made, the new factions provide a subpar experience. I recommend and suggest that we merge/absorb Servants into Reapers, and Guardians into Athena. Doing so will help merge one of the main concepts of the game in a better way. Athena itself, is already set up to become a pvp faction against the reapers, and reapers are already a pvp faction to begin with. Both factions will serve to organize and clean up commendation, gold, and reputation distribution. Attackers will be able to wager more gold reward as they would be allowed to bring more treasure rewards onto battle, therefore also increasing rep gain for winning, and defenders will be able to potentially sell their treasure to receive commendations, and bonus gold and reputation. An otherwise empty and lackluster reputation system for guardians and servants would be filled with multiple reputation rewards and cosmetics for reaching the first 75 levels, before finally reaching lvl 100 and being awarded the secret hideout in the Reapers hideout, or in the case of Athena, unlocking the secret hideout addition.

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  • Captain Coel
    Commander
    Insider

    @red0demon0 nah. I think of them as the volunteer army for both factions. We fight for the thrill of the fight.

    It doesn't erode anything.
    It doesn't confuse anything.
    It's fun.

  • R3troRaccoon
    Marauder
    Insider

    @red0demon0

    The entire rest of the game is PvE focused. World Events, Voyages for 4 separate factions, Tall Tales, Adventures, Lore drops, Milestones arr 70% PvE related, 7 of 8 seasons focus primarily on PvE. 4 pve only obtainable curses, 90% of all cosmetics are PvE obtainable. PVP can be rough, with a decent learning curve. You can't be upset some people are getting things that are hard to obtain, PvP oriented and through a different mode of play then you like. It's like having an entire buffet of food and being mad someone has a desert you didn't get a chance to get to. The prize is there, its just farther down the table then you wanna walk.

  • Jolly Ol Yep
    Marauder
    Insider

    @captain-coel a dit dans Guardians of Fortune & Servants of the Flame Should Not Exist :

    It doesn't confuse anything.

    Commendations count only half the time now, depending on which faction your opponent is.

    The same action leading to different outcomes is the definition of "confusion".

    The emissary flag stuff is confusing as Hell and was never explained : Yes, even though it raises your hourglass value, you need to sell these before lowering it for mmax allegiance ? Mmmmm OK.... So : flags, HG, then loot.

  • HiradC
    Lord
    Insider

    There is more pve focus in the long game you'll notice there's commendations relating to doing pve events while wearing the level 100 curses. I wonder if those commendations give you rep and faction progress the way certain pl commendations give you athena rep.

  • Red0Demon0
    Commander
    Insider

    @r3troraccoon said in Guardians of Fortune & Servants of the Flame Should Not Exist:

    @red0demon0

    The entire rest of the game is PvE focused. World Events, Voyages for 4 separate factions, Tall Tales, Adventures, Lore drops, Milestones arr 70% PvE related, 7 of 8 seasons focus primarily on PvE. 4 pve only obtainable curses, 90% of all cosmetics are PvE obtainable. PVP can be rough, with a decent learning curve. You can't be upset some people are getting things that are hard to obtain, PvP oriented and through a different mode of play then you like. It's like having an entire buffet of food and being mad someone has a desert you didn't get a chance to get to. The prize is there, its just farther down the table then you wanna walk.

    The entire rest of the game has instances and possibilities of pvp components within every pve component and vice versa. World events are marked on the map at all times, which helps pull players together in a way that allows for semi natural interactions. Milestones/ commendations are simply achievements or feats, such as landing precisely in a specific place for shooting oneself out of a cannon, or finding a hidden secret, etc. They include pvp aspects and pve aspects. 90% of cosmetics are attainable through the use of gold, by any means necessary. How one gets that gold, through pvp or pve is up to the player. The more gold you have the more you risk loosing, and the more that other players have to gain. Underwater shrines also work based on this concept, the longer you're down in a shrine, the longer you leave the ship at risk out in the sea. Tall tales or adventures are the only thing that focus majorly on pve and even then, the majority of them allow pvp components to play out (The only tales that push away pvp aspects are the one that are instance based). Regardless, it's a fact that the game is not just pve centered, we should avoid arguing it as it's already a stated fact. Your argument just doesn't hold up for these reasons, and because you assume I am getting angry or feel it's hard to obtain. Notice how you have deviated from the topic, as I at no moment in this topic mentioned anger or being mad at the mode.

    I provided logical reasoning, I recommend you look at what I had written since I really took the time to highlight issues with the system and how they might be improved

    @Captain Coel and yet we have commendations and emissary mechanics that dip into both factions at the same time because they behave similarly on multiple aspects. You bring up an interesting view point, but if that were the case then the commendation, rep, and gold would still be given by the faction itself. volunteer army as u stated, is literally defined as mercenaries, which is basically what every pirate/ player is doing, being a mercenary for each trading company by making money in expense of ethics. The difference between a mercenary and a pirate is that pirates take more than just gold and they are specific to the naval experience. Overall your statement does not help clear up the confusion, perhaps I misinterpreted it, but us being mercenaries for hire on the waves, joining a group of mercenaries within a trading company that already behaves like a group of mercenaries (Especially in the case of reapers) is a redundant and confusing idea.

  • PithyRumble
    Sailor
    Insider

    Neither should have been a lot of things added.

    Sitting...Stools? WHO WAS ASKING FOR STOOLS?

  • ScurvyWoof
    Captain

    @pithyrumble Stools were never what we wanted, but they are what we cherish and hold dear...
    Do not tarnish their name

  • ZiG ZaG LTU
    Commander
    Insider

    After reading your post, I do have to agree to a certain extent.

    When people ask for PVE only not only do they get shamed by the community, saying it's a PVPVE, you consent bla bla bla. And devs said they don't want this.

    But now we have PVP only factions, game mode. The previous arguments become a hypocrisy.

    I would love if devs stuck to their narrative and allowed us to gain progress for the factions doing PVE as well. just my opinion.

  • shawbag11
    Commander
    Insider
    Founder

    I dont agree that the factions should be seperate cus pvp dose have a place in the game not that i like it at all infact i cant stand sot pvp but the good thing is it has made the seas calmer since the hourglass was put into the game for the rest of us so it deffently has its place. the thing i dont like though is having to hit 100 in each faction to go into the hideouts. like the curse is one thing but i think the hideouts should be just 75 in each faction not oh you need to git good at pvp to see this kinda pve area. i mean theres alot of lore in thoese areas that some of us pve'er would like to see but we are forced to git good at pvp just to enjoy that little bit of content and i hate that. the thing i hate most about it is it sets the presedent that they can lock pve content behind forced pvp grinding and i just cant get on board with that. really all they need to do is make it so u can enter the hideouts at 75 but you still need 100 for the curses. that would mean the new pvp faction still has a reward for doing it but it dosnt lock entire areas for anyone who dosnt want to deal with the super swetty pvp.
    oh and btw i have the ghost curse and am halfway to the skelly curse but even still i still dont agree that thoese areas should be locked behind a pvp grind hell reapers on its own was already a pvp faction and getting to 75 is kinda hard for most normal players so surly that should have been enough to enter the hideout on its own without needing to git good.
    i just dont want pvp to dominate the game its already annoying not being able to do something as simple as fishing without a brig of sweats coming along and chaseing me for 45 mins who dont even want my fishi shouldnt have to be forced into dealing with thoeses kinds of players for 100 lv's of pain just to see pve content

  • LordQulex
    Captain

    @pithyrumble said in Guardians of Fortune & Servants of the Flame Should Not Exist:

    Neither should have been a lot of things added.

    Sitting...Stools? WHO WAS ASKING FOR STOOLS?

    Literally everybody! You go three days without a good stool and see how you feel! 🤣

  • LordQulex
    Captain

    @red0demon0

    They make perfect sense. Throughout history and fantasy there have been many organizations with specialist/militant corps, it's a bit of a trope. Athena's/Reapers are the logistical core of the operation, and Guardians/Servants are the militant arm.

    Plus, there are a thousands levels to each. There's no putting that genie back in the bottle. Factions are going nowhere for now. Maybe in a few years when participation falls to 3% total play time.

  • Scheneighnay
    Ship Mate

    I agree there should've been a push for more symbiotic PVPVE.

    The main argument for the hourglass is that it gives PVPers a place to fight eachother instead of harassing PVE players, but if anything it just made the situation worse.

  • Red0Demon0
    Commander
    Insider

    @lordqulex said in Guardians of Fortune & Servants of the Flame Should Not Exist:

    @red0demon0

    They make perfect sense. Throughout history and fantasy there have been many organizations with specialist/militant corps, it's a bit of a trope. Athena's/Reapers are the logistical core of the operation, and Guardians/Servants are the militant arm.

    Plus, there are a thousands levels to each. There's no putting that genie back in the bottle. Factions are going nowhere for now. Maybe in a few years when participation falls to 3% total play time.

    I always took it that Reapers themselves are a militant/ rebel group in the game. They exist solely as an opposition to all the other trading companies, but their main counterpart are Athena's. Yes' there are a 1,000 lvls to each but those lvls are like a vast desert of content. Getting a level does nothing but help bragging rights until you reach the specific milestones which are way too far in between one another. These are some of the critiques I pointed out, merging the factions together, would not remove how one plays, the hourglass, reputation lvls, and pvp matchmaking will still be a thing, after all, both factions would still compete against each other, the summary I provided at the end even stated that the first 75 lvls would comprise the reapers reward milestones, before players push to get to 100, and reach the servants milestones. Overall, rep gain will increase because players can either collect gold and sell to gain rep, fight other ships to get rep, or do both at the same time. The possibilities of gaining rep would be more varied, but still heavily focused on the pvp aspect. The pve aspect would be used as an incentive or a boost to pvp by working around boosting overall gold rewards and rep while the hourglass is active. This would also help to organize and clean up commendations now and in the future as how one is awarded titles or commendations would be obvious and tied to the faction itself. Who's to say that turning in emissary flags should be a commendation only for reapers? When you have servants faction that has a greater focus on fighting Athena emissaries? Again, these are things that are tied to both companies because of their similarities to each other, they just criss cross, and entwine to the point it all becomes a knot. Perhaps now some may find it easy to differentiate which commendation or rep should come from whom, but in the future if they choose to add new commendations or ways to gain rep within each trading company, and they add further factions (1 for each company) or if they simply add further commendations for the factions, who's to say where one should attain them from, and even so why particularly gain it form say a faction instead of the trading company itself? I'm not asking for them to be completely wiped out, just that they are specifically merged into their given trading companies

  • Maldreis
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    I would still like for the mouths to move when you speak with in-game chat. It's not necessary but if we're putting in pointless interactivity it would be a nice touch.

  • LT Robinson25
    Master
    Insider

    There are many Commendations that are PVE in the New Factions.

    1. Sea Forts
    2. Tale Tale
    3. Ghost ship
    4. skull Forts
    5. Bone fish
    6. Play Shanty
    7. Sit in Tavern
    8. Witness

    I'm think a lot more.

  • Dragotech123
    Commander
    Insider
    Founder

    I'm still very very frustrated at the hourglass. Why losers get so little xp? A battle can go on and on, and that makes it stressing as it makes me think "I must win, I must win, I must win" because if I lose I get a tiny portion of xp and makes me feel that losing from the start would have been better. Is loss farming efficient? No, but it is more efficient than trying and losing. Mouse N Keyboard and another guy on Reddit already got their curses by loss farming so it clearly isn't a mark of skill. But it makes me feel terrible to see the time spent by a loser vs the time spent by a winner to get the curses. The difference is abismal. If the curses were a sign of skill and be feared why weren't they locked behind a commendation of specific number of wins then? Why put 2 new factions where the level to get the first significant reward is 100? Loss xp is terribly small, I think I invested a good ammount of time, and I have won some fights, but all I got are 2 titles and the first figurehead. I think the loss xp needs to be drastically increased to be almost on par with the win, so the win and losses may be considered more like participation and the win streaks are the bonus to advance faster.

    How naive I was thinking I would get one of the curses this season, I am demoralized and I whenever I have the will to continue it quickly gets crushed by how little xp is gained despite sailing in circles shooting at the enemy for a long time. Every time I won I rushed to sell the hourglass because I fear on losing that bonus xp, and the loss xp makes me feel like all that time and effort was wasted. I didn't expect to get the curses in 15 minutes, 3 days or a week, but at least I expected to be close by the end of the season but I am only level 26 with the guardians.

    With how little xp is gained and everything else is lost (streak, emmisary, hourglass value) it feels horrible to lose and I can see why many people already quit the hourglass mode despite trying. I need a motive to keep trying but I only feel like this may be the biggest grind in the game so far. Shores of gold may feel longer for someone who can win consistently, but I don't think it is as close for someone who is still trying to improve. (Also, please, patch the silent boarding exploit)

    I know, I was told to do a break, and to try something different until it changes, but the fear of the playerbase for the hourglass reducing and no big changes on the horizon are my biggest concerns. What if nothing is changed and the game mode queues become longer because less and less players go into battle? I fear the interest in the hourglass may die and with a new season on the way the interest in this will be reduced erasing the opportunity for me to get them. Look, I'm trying to improve, I do, but the curses are the only motivation I have to keep trying, because everything else in the mode makes me feel I am fighting for nothing.

    The other trading companies cap at 75, and with emmisaries that goal can be achieved much faster. But the guardians and servants require winning, and winning in a row to get that fast progression, because losers get that flat cut, and there are 100 levels plus much more for the other rewards. A PvP game mode have both winners and losers and both need to be rewarded for time and effort, not only one side. I am glad that saling out of bounds is no longer an issue, but aside from that and the supplies I can't see any other big improvement because losers still have that flat tiny portion of xp. The increase in loss xp is barely visible, in fact at higher levels I'm sure it can't be even recognized.

    My other concern is about taking it too long. I don't think it should take that long for a loser, playing this everyday and losing every battle could get a player to the curses, sure. But playing everyday? Would that be possible for everyone? And would that be possible for many players without suffering a burnout or getting tired of repetition?

    I hope they make a huge improvement for the next season because I fear the content for it would probably drag attention from the hourglass. This is the hourglass season, this could be the peak of interest in the mode, the moment in the game it was introduced could be the peak of interest before it slowly fades away unless some big changes are made in the future.

  • Magus104
    Captain
    Insider
    Founder

    @lt-robinson25 ..... Yes and no... Those all require a long tedious grind to get. If those commendations were progressing while hourglass was active vs just doing them after obtaining the curse the would be more meaningful. Instead its like long pvp grind for people who love pvp.... Now go grind pve to unlock more cosmetic options even though we know you hate pve. To unlock to the curse to farm the pve commendations pve people who hate pvp have a long annoying grind of something they hate. So its conceptually flawed on both ends. Also all the double grinds. Though similar to arena, farm the red set then wear the red set to earn the blue set by doing the same tedious stuff you did to obtain the red set. They really don't like to let you progress multiple things at once in this game. Its grind this one task to earn a thing to then have to grind the same task. Very bad reward structure design.

  • Fysics3037
    Marauder
    Insider

    wait so you wanna make servants and reapers the same, and athena and guardians the same? why don't we make Athenas, Merchant, OoS, and GH the same since they repeat quests. Oh and while we are at it, lets also merge HC and reapers with athena since they take mermaid gems. And also since now athenas takes mermaid gems, lets just merge them all. Makes perfect sense.

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