@lordqulex Relax dude, I wasn't commenting with any kind of sas/animosity, just saying that there is a pve element and that in this game pvp is unavoidable regardless. Rare has no responsibility/inclination to change what is currently the requirement for the curse, regardless if people don't like the pvp element, you have to face the fact that some rewards in the game will be pvp focused and some will be pve focused.
I hate pvp but really want the curses
@strangeness said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
Case in point: this idea that anybody should be able to unlock cosmetics by playing the game they want to play it. Let's just say, for example, that I wanted to unlock all cosmetics by sitting on the rock on top of smugglers bay. In this finctional example, I find the waves destressing, the sunsets beautiful, and I don't "play" sea of thieves for the PvE or PvP or PvEvP. I don't play for any sort of "versus" at all. I play for the "E" ...environment.
Now, ask yourself honestly, do you believe that I should be allowed to get every cosmetic, or even these curses, by sitting on a rock on smugglers bay? If you've argued in the past that "I don't want them to be easy, but doable based on a player's playstyle" then what makes that wrong? Is 800 hours on smugglers bay enough? 8,000? 80,000? If you believe that inclusivity requires that someone be able to unlock any cosmetics "their way" and "their way" is sitting on smugglers bay then I am not tha inclusive. The game has sandbox activities, and participating in those activities has rewards the devs have chosen. I support it in principle and therefore won't lean into arguing the specifics of which cosmetics, curses, items, are "worthy" of being rewards and which aren't. That delves into a level of subjectivity that nobody will ever agree on.
I wouldn't have a problem with that. 80,000 hours on a rock for each cosmetic, starting with, let's say, the hunter's call cosmetics. That's about 9 years per cosmetic, on the average human lifespan you should barely get through the hunter's call before you die, provided you do nothing but battle the coming of lazybeard for the rest of your life. So yeah, I'd be fine with that, why on earth not? That would be a hell of an achievement, you'd probably get an immortalization if you did that.
Of course, its a wildly and pointlessly facetious example, but even that extreme, I'd be fine with. Of course, no-one, anywhere has said, you should be able to get everything in the game for doing the same action over and over and over, and its puerile to suggest they have. People have suggested that the more ways there are to engage with the game, and the more engagement bought into it the better. And you do get commendations for sitting, you do get achievements for watching the sun come up. Do you get everything in the game for just doing the same thing over and over? No, and nobody has been suggesting you should, and you know nobody has been suggesting you should. The main suggestion is that there should be a more realistic level of reward for hauling loot during an hourglass to make it close to worth the risk and the challenge in doing so, such that a more PvE leaning style can get a bit more out of the mode at a reasonable rate. Additionally, it would be nice if the tools were more emergent and encouraged more of a building of the in-game world, rather than just hitting a button and being sucked into a two dimensional slap-fest. But sure, reduce that to saying that everyone should get everything by sitting on a rock, that's fair.
If you've argued that every other thing in the game can be done by other playstyles, that is factually, if not numerically wrong. I've brought up hunters call before. Yes, fish can be gotten from shipwrecks, barrels, etc. But until very recently (two weeks), you weren't realistically getting fish from PvP. Nobody kept rare fish in their barrels, and barrels didn't float up. So you weren't sneak-stealing them and weren't getting them from sinks. Also, shipwrecks, barrels, etc don't hold fish bones, hats, boots. And again, while its mathematically possible to get those from PvP, the reality is people either dump them or sell them immediately if they are still grinding the commendation. I can mathematically retire off a lottery win. But the odds of winning make it a terrible retirement strategy. Nobody; NOBODYl has completed hunters call from pure PvP.
I put rare fish in barrels. I literally did it two sessions ago.
It is interesting to me that people brought up the gold curse, then when it is pointed out that the gold curse required finding journals (it does), and doing other PvE things that can't be done via PvP (it isn't just about the end game for a stolen item, but all the commendations which means completing certain PvE tasks), that suddenly turned into a "bad comparison" because it didn't have multiple cosmetics or a new area. The goalposts moved once again.
Somebody arguing that things should be locked behind PvP bought up the Gold Curse, and other people let it fly as a bad example until it was bought up again, and again, and again, and finally I got tired of the example being stretched to cover all things and felt as though it snapped so I pointed out how bad an example it was. Pointing out that the person you're debating is repeating a bad example isn't "moving the goalposts". Watch, "Putting things behind PvP is like eating a live baby.". I assume you'll want to "Move the goalposts" by pointing out how awful an example that is, right? "People" didn't bring up the Gold Curse, those suggesting that PvP players have been long screwed bought up the Gold Curse as a false equivalence, I just got tired of letting it slide is all. And for the ninetieth time, even while being a bad example, you still need to find those journals in a worldwide, PvP filled sandbox, you have to sail across the sea to the islands they're on, you need to avoid and deal with other ships while you're doing it, you need to risk people shooting you in the back of the head as you wander through bushes looking at the floor. You need to do the Gold Curse in an environment with PvP in it. If you could vote up a Tall Tale and then suddenly your ship ducked beneath the waves and then popped up right next to the island you need for the commendation then maybe, maybe you'd have some grounds for suggesting there's something here going on to match the two together, but you don't.
And the most ironic part of this is that I still don't care. Rare could come out tomorrow and say the curses are now behind the OG athena (not guardians) and reaper (not servant) and those have been bumped to 50/100 respectively, and I'd be fine with that decision. I am not invested in keeping these behind PvP. I am not a PvP demigod and do not have 100 in Guardians or Servants yet. At the rate I'm going, I will get the curses sometime near the end of 2023, if HG wait times stay what they are now. If participation drops off (my fear) it'll be even longer. So I have reason to want changes. And yet, here I am, saying that I disagree with the fundamental argument that every cosmetic or curse, or even THESE cosmetics/curses, NEED to be unlocked by people playing "their way." That's not how rewards work. They aren't participation trophies. They reward breaking outside of playing "your way" and trying something different.
And I also still don't care. I don't care about getting the cosmetics and I wouldn't put them on if I had them. And yet here I am, saying that I disagree with the fundamental argument that asking you to play in a way you don't want to is a good thing. Sure, that's how rewards work, why the heck not? They're little dopamine hits for keeping you in the game, hitting the buttons and pushing the algorithms. They're not real, it doesn't matter what the path is to getting them. This isn't the Nobel prize for medicine where we really need people to bust their humps getting it or society will suffer. They can be for just doing the bit of the game you like, more and better, or a little differently, than you were before. It would be just fine.
Someone brought up buffing defending. I absolutely agree with that sentiment. There is almost no incentive to defend right now. The risk too high, the reward too low. I'd support major changes there. Not because curses are behind them, but just because as an activity, it serves little to no purposes. And most HG battles I've seen and been in have been invader vs invader, so anecdotally there is evidence that very few others are defending as well. And if that gets a buff and that appeases those who want the curse in "PvPvE" ways, then so be it. I'm not opposed to that.
Yeah, I did, among others. If you're not opposed to that, you agree with me. Which makes a lot of this pointless. As if it wasn't already.
But I have seen how debates evolve in this thread already. I can, with a high level of certainty, predict that even if defending became a viable option, that wouldn't be good enough anymore. They'd "suddenly" become opposed to having to vote on the hourglass at all. Even though they no longer have to dive via thw warmap, they would have new objections, or new requirements to make it "fair." Loot they already stacked should count (making cheesing easy.) Or defeating PvE elements while the HG is "on" should count. "I sunk a skellie ship while the HG was active. That should be worth just as much rep as sinking a player ship." So even though I am fine with defender changes in theory, I just know it won't be enough to appease the opposing side.
Nope, I'd be good with that. Making it so that half an hour spent defending while grabbing loot with the hourglass on gives as much reward as half an hour of invading (not queueing), roughly, would do me. I think there should be ways where defending doing PvE would get you more than invading, and ways it would get you less. I mean, if someone does, like, a Fort with the hourglass on, has someone come in while half their crew is on the Fort and their ship is stationary, beats them, and turns in the whole Fort, that should get you more rep than kicking in two or three other players in open sea. While if you pick up and defend a couple of basic quests, that should be way less. I'd still rather there was an actual Warmap and the whole thing was more organic and player curated, but I suspect that a certain amount of this is to let them pump people around the servers in a more useful manner, so that's unlikely. Just at the moment the weight is hugely on the side of hitting invade over and over again, just playing a disengaged, watered down, single mode version of the game, and I think that makes what could have been a cool set of player tools sort of suck and create an anaemic chopped down version of things. I think that letting it operate in a way that could let someone think that even with minimal PvP skills, if they can run to an island, hit a quest and get back to the mysterious stranger fast enough they might get a chunk of reward, or fight off one enemy instead of two if they grab a big enough treasure, that would make the mode better. I think it would be better if it had more of a PvE sauce poured over the top of the PvP option. I still don't get why that would be bad?
@pumpa-cat said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
Thank you. 👍 I did my first ever boarding today. It was against a skelly galleon. 🤣 I was amazed that it was an allowed mechanic. I was frantically slashing and hacking with my sword at the Skeleton crew once I clambered up their ladder. I even killed the captain before I was overrun by what seemed like a million skeletons. Okay, not PvP I know. But for me this really was a big deal. Incredibly fun too.
Most things you think you can do you can do, its good like that. You can sink skelly ships by defending a hole, but its tough. Fire bombs and lots of high value food can help, but you need to go in with a plan and keep your head. Since skelly ships can't bail its actually possible to sink them with just buckets, but you need a lot of patience.
@pumpa-cat said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
Perhaps this has been mentioned elsewhere, or earlier (must confess I’m getting a little lost here now 🤣), but how about a PvE equivalent of the same curse. Say, the same thing, same effect, but a different look to it. For example, and just for the sake of simplicity, a different colour to the “uniform” of the curse.
Well, this is, again, one of the issues with the decision to make the first "base" curse of this type placed in this manner. The new curses are a whole path of new cosmetics. To be honest, its one of the reasons that I think it well might be opened up in different ways in the future, its one thing keeping one curse to a subsection of players, but they've put in a lot of effort creating a lot of looks and options to keep them all to a subsection.
@lordqulex said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
Are golden curses not a good enough reward for the PVP enthusiasts? How about the skeleton cosmetic requiring champion status and streaks? Do you not have enough cosmetics to earn? That's not my fault, I don't make cosmetics for the game. Why can't there be parts of the curse everyone can earn and enjoy? Why isn't there room for everyone in your sea?
I dislike I have to resort to saying this: You're gatekeeping yourself if you're refusing to take on the challenge set by the game itself. That is a skill issue in of itself. Everyone can get the curse, if they clear the same challenge set for them like everyone else. If you can't do the challenge, you have two choices: Cease participation (be that temporarily or permanent), or improving yourself to clear the challenge and the many trials you will inevitably face along the way.
People had fun without the Ghost/Skeleton Curse, they can continue to do so, whether it is in the game or not. People that WANT it will need to tackle the challenge that was set, and if they can't, they have to decide on whether or not to continue participating purely on a desire for a reward, and not an opportunity for self-improvement in this game.
My experiences with the hourglass have not been purely positive mind you. I dislike how rough the MMR has been treating me since Day 1, however, you don't see me looking for a simpler, PvE alternative. Instead, I take it as an opportunity to say, "Hey, now that there is a way to get into more PvP that doesn't involve chasing Grade V Reaper Emissaries across the map, this would be an amazing opportunity to get better at PvP so that I personally, can feel accepted in some corners of the community that are actually experienced at the game I love to play." The curses don't matter to me, even if I do want to commit more to Athena's Fortune for lore's sake, when you have the goal be something dynamic and focuses more on one's self than the prize you're ultimately drooling for, you have a better outlook on Season 8's content, even if it frustrates you to high heavens.
All sides of the playerbase need to be acknowledged and rewarded for the basic task of doing what they want. They want to murder pirates and merchants? They should be rewarded. They want to slay skeletons and ghosts? They have a myriad of rewards for doing that and then some, especially with how quiet the waters are this Season. They want to fish all over the seas and search for the best catch possible? There's a special set of rewards for their earnings. Season 8, after several months since the closing of Arena, now has an Adventure Mode equivalent to grinding in PvP primarily, and special rewards when participating in and committing to said PvP.
@gtothefo said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
@scurvywoof said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
It’s purely behind PvE in the PvEvP world. So, you’re wrong. It’s a PvE curse. I could say that, because the new curses are PvP in the PvEvP world and there is a threat of PvE encounters happening, then it’s not purely PvP. Shooting yourself in the foot there.
Being in the PvPvE world is what makes it PvPvE, and the very point is that the new content isn't in the PvPvE world and doesn't occur organically. With Gold Curse you sail in the PvPvE world, back and forth, you contribute to the content of that world, you make it a living breathing place where organic encounters can occur. With the hourglass you hit a button and you wait, you don't sail to the arena location and you don't need to sail out again. If you're both invading you're stuck off in a corner of the map away from any of the emergent spawn point triggers so PvE encounters are less likely to pop. You spend most of your time not engaging with the engine of the game and when you do engage around the engine you're sectioned off to a specific and separate part of it.
In fairness, you are correct here. Either no one raises the hourglass and does something else or the game refuses to spawn invaders on a ship doing something already. There needs to be a serious reward increase to defending, imo.
So why respond if you don’t care enough to balance out both sides of the equation? It seems that you want the reward without putting in the work.
I have no idea what you mean by this. My point, my repeated and clear point, has been the more routes to things the better and the more fun that will result. Why would you think I object to a PvP route to Gold Curse?
In your post which I responded to here, you sounded like you meant that you didn’t care enough for Rare to actually add a PvP way to get Gold Curse. In another of my posts, you can see someone pointed out you didn’t mean that and I acknowledged it.
You're probably right, but it's a very poor way to view things, especially given the fact that he feels entitled to the curses that are only acquired through PvP, which he isn't. He'd be entitled to them if he was already level 100 for both factions and hadn't yet received them, meaning that a support ticket would need to be submitted. The issue is, these people want the curses without putting in the work to get them. Now, if every other curse, cosmetic and title in the game that is purely behind PvE had a PvP way to get it, then sure, make it so these curses can be obtained through PvE.
However, Rare won't ever do this (probably because there is no logical way to actually do it), so I am against the idea presented in this thread.Either you've not been reading what I've been saying, or your definition of entitled is waaaay off from the way its generally used. I think there should be more routes to obtaining things, that's it, that's not thinking that any route should be easier, or that there shouldn't be work, just that different sorts of work should be possible to be applied, that's it.
Maybe you don’t mean to sound entitled, but your posts make it seem that way. Apologies for any misconceptions I’ve been having about your posts.
Also, to add, the gold curse isn't an equivalence here. The gold curse doesn't unlock a new part of the game, the gold curse doesn't offer new NPCs to interact with and, importantly, the gold curse doesn't open up a whole range of additional accessories, there are no achievements that require you to be wearing the gold curse in order to achieve them. No other curse in the game comes with a new accessories path to it, these curses are totally unique in that fashion. This isn't closest to getting the gold curse, this is closest to getting Pirate Legend, with the area it opens, new accessories path and so on, and Pirate Legend can be accessed in a PvPvE fashion, not PvP or PvE alone.
As someone else said, you’ve moved the goalposts again. Gold curse can not be obtained through any form of PvP. Sure, it happens in a PvEvP world, but rarely will you need to fight anyone, and nowhere, in any Tall Tale, do you need to fight someone.
You know why there are more rewards for these curses? Because you have to put in a fair bit of work for them. The same goes for Gold Curse, but that was around long before the Flameheart versus Pirate Lord story line heated up. It was long before Belle became a part of the actual game, a long time before any of the new adventures happened to build on Merrick more.
To shorten that, there wasn’t anything to add on to Gold Curse because there was no feasible way to expand upon it.The core issue which affects every aspect of the game is a general lack of players and organic activities. If these issues can be solved, everyone can have an easy, breezy time getting everything they want with relative ease.
This is half the point, organic, emergent activity, not hitting a button and getting sucked out of the main body of the world. Organic, emergent, tools to curate a more PvP leaning experience within a PvPvE world, not some teleporter to drag you off to a far corner of the map so that you barely interact with the game at all. If there was more reward for engaging in PvE while running the hourglass, if there was an actual War Map experience, that's what it would be, there wouldn't be a need to sit around in a queue half the time to get worthwhile progress and the battles fought would have a higher chance of being more emergent, more interesting, more tactical and more unusual. I don't get what the objection to that is.
Being moved to the edge of the map is fine. It removes the chance that a random ship may have two ships spawn on either side of them whilst they are sailing. The issue is the lack of reward for defending. No one does it. If they do, you rarely spawn on them. I’ve fought probably 40-60 battles and only 5 or 6 have been actually invading someone who is doing something.
I do think the chance of a random PvE encounter has been lowered if you are fighting in the mode. I don’t understand why, but it certainly seems that way.Regardless of that, you have to do PvP with the threat of PvE being ever present. It goes both ways. If you refuse to see that, then God, I’m not going to bother anymore.
@nex-stargaze said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
@lordqulex said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
If you can't do the challenge, you have two choices: Cease participation (be that temporarily or permanent), or improving yourself to clear the challenge and the many trials you will inevitably face along the way.I think this is where you and I differ. I would rather see every player in the game have these curses, and you'd rather have your status symbol or force others to play a style they dislike or force some nebulous definition of "personal growth of PVP."
Not everyone who grinds PVP 8 hours a day will get good at it. People are leaving the game because these curses are behind PVP.
Are you really so overwhelming concerned about internet peoples' personal emotional growth that you're willing to sacrifice the games playerbase to prove a point? Why is people leaving the game accelerating its demise more important to you than just letting people have fun their way and look like a ghost or skeleton doing it??
@lordqulex said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
@nex-stargaze said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
@lordqulex said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
If you can't do the challenge, you have two choices: Cease participation (be that temporarily or permanent), or improving yourself to clear the challenge and the many trials you will inevitably face along the way.I think this is where you and I differ. I would rather see every player in the game have these curses, and you'd rather have your status symbol or force others to play a style they dislike or force some nebulous definition of "personal growth of PVP."
Not everyone who grinds PVP 8 hours a day will get good at it. People are leaving the game because these curses are behind PVP.
Are you really so overwhelming concerned about internet peoples' personal emotional growth that you're willing to sacrifice the games playerbase to prove a point? Why is people leaving the game accelerating its demise more important to you than just letting people have fun their way and look like a ghost or skeleton doing it??
Can you prove people are leaving the game because of this or are you just saying it to add to your argument?
@shoresytalk said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
Rare has no responsibility/inclination to change what is currently the requirement for the curse, regardless if people don't like the pvp element, you have to face the fact that some rewards in the game will be pvp focused and some will be pve focused.
You get nothing you don't ask for. We're just here to ask for it en masse so Rare stops catering to the vocal minority of PVP sweats that had them increase the difficulty last patch.
@scurvywoof said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
Can you prove people are leaving the game because of this or are you just saying it to add to your argument?
I mean, people are saying it in the forums and on the official discord and on Twitter and telling me in voice channels on the official discord.
If you're asking if I've personally followed up with every single person who has mentioned it that I have interacted with no, of course not. If you're asking whether people are actually following though I tend to believe so. If you're asking if I can prove they're following through, certainly not. But they are saying they will, frequently and fervently.
@lordqulex To be fair, people say they are going to stop playing just to keep playing anyway. It's probably more of a, "I'm not happy right now so I'm going to say I will stop playing because I intend to stop" but that's just for the moment. I've had plenty of times, in many games, where I've gone, "Nope. Not anymore. I'm not playing this game again," just to play it in a week.
Also, I totally agree with you on Rare's decision to make it harder to get the curses. I can't say I can remember any point in time where Rare made it harder to achieve something in PvE because a small amount of players already had the rewards. And it's not like all the players who had the curses were winning all the time. I reckon some of those players that already had the curses loss farmed.
You know, this is just my opinion, and opinions are subjective, but I think it was a bad idea to put the curses behind this mode for the following reasons: A curse is something that customizes the pirate and that would be something that appeals more to roleplayers, fashion lovers and players that would like to blend with the NPCs, and to be honest I never notice someone has the gold curse until they are right in front of me. When someone wants to show off their gold curse to me they have come to me and talk.
Meanwhile, I think a ship set is something you see from the distance and it already announces the reputation of that crew to everyone. The sails might be the first thing you notice, and then you see the hull and the figurehead. I think that is something some PvP players are looking for, showing off they are good at demolishing other crews and perhaps a ship set would have been more for their style, letting other crews know of their accomplishments and let their reputation expand across the server.
@lordqulex said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
Are you really so overwhelming concerned about internet peoples' personal emotional growth that you're willing to sacrifice the games playerbase to prove a point? Why is people leaving the game accelerating its demise more important to you than just letting people have fun their way and look like a ghost or skeleton doing it??
If you refuse to play a game because you don't want to clear the challenge that's required to earn a single cosmetic you want...
Yeah no I have nothing to say for you at that point. That's weak thinking, and a very brittle mindset that I don't support or want to encourage.
You have nothing to prove people are leaving the game just because they can't become a ghost/skeleton. You have no accurate statistics to prove this and you need to stop forwarding the narrative that people will leave the game over the pettiest of things. Cause if they're leaving just cause they can't get something they want, I don't consider those active/dedicated players worth keeping. The main crowd of people this Season is catering towards is sticking around, for better or for worse. They might stop playing for a little bit, but rest assured, they're going to come back and give this mode a try again, and I would know since I've done it too. This content was well catered to dedicated players, AND casuals looking to participate with an open mind towards PvP, something this game has been sorely lacking for years now, even with Arena's existence.
You get nothing you don't ask for. We're just here to ask for it en masse so Rare stops catering to the vocal minority of PVP sweats that had them increase the difficulty last patch.
They didn't increase the difficulty, they fixed the grind to lv 100 from lv 1000 to what was intended, as the original grind was an unexpected oversight on their end. As upset I would be about that, I don't really care, it's a cosmetic that's extremely tough to earn and very few people with any fame (or TOS-friendly infamy) own it currently, the base lv 1 - lv 100 grind is still the same as ever.
I'm exhausted with this arguing. I'm only telling you this now: Shape up, or ship out. Your sloop is waiting for you, mate.
Cause if they're leaving just cause they can't get something they want, I don't consider those active/dedicated players worth keeping.
The "you," or I, in this case is Rare, a corporate entity predisposed to get as much money as possible from customers. The kind of person they deem worth keeping are the ones that play actively and may pay, and those that do pay.
Losing players of any type is bad for business. Be glad you're not a business.
@lordqulex From what I understand, and I could be wrong, but they only increased the difficulty for leveling past level 100, not the grind to hit 100 for the curse. As far as the en masse thing goes, the same could be said for any curse. I don’t like doing Tall Tales, but I don’t expect rare to change the requirement for getting said curses. That’s just silly, this is a pvp related curse, just like others are pve related. I don’t like the grind for the pve curses, but I do it anyway, it’s no different for this if someone doesn’t like pvp.
I’m LV 133 in Guardians of Fortune. Leveling up is fast at low levels and once it gets past 75, it’s about 25% experience per win. Once it’s past level 100 it a little under 50% of experience per win. Once past LV 100 it evens out and hasn’t gotten harder for me yet. That being said, I don’t know if it will get harder past LV 500
@lordqulex said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
Losing players of any type is bad for business. Be glad you're not a business.
Considering how in-and-out this game's playerbase is anyways, I'm just glad that I have a spine to take on whatever nonsense comes through these updates, unlike some very impatient lot that think a single cosmetic is everything to them.
@lordqulex said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
Cause if they're leaving just cause they can't get something they want, I don't consider those active/dedicated players worth keeping.
The "you," or I, in this case is Rare, a corporate entity predisposed to get as much money as possible from customers. The kind of person they deem worth keeping are the ones that play actively and may pay, and those that do pay.
Losing players of any type is bad for business. Be glad you're not a business.
That's actually not accurate at all. Plenty of businesses cater to a specific clientele and don't try to please everyone. A upscale fine dining restaurant won't have a kid's menu or kid's activities, and doendt try to have "more customers" by being kid friendly. They understand that their core audience may be wealthy older people or a trendy "date" restaurant. And having families and kids actually creates an atmosphere that would lose them their core audience. Not many wealthy dates happen at Chuck-e Cheese.
In MANY cases, trying to please everyone and bring in more just alienates a core audience and makes everything "less." Businesses spend time and effort building a specific image, and they have marketing arms that crunch numbers and polls and ensure they are hitting those standards. Gaming communities are no different.
So, let's take this forum post as a microcosm. How many are advocating to let everyone get the curse "their way." I've seen... Two. How many have said that Rare probably knows what they are doing. I've seen 15 or so. Not the "vocal minority."
I'm not telling anyone to get lost or stop playing. But this notion that any game company needs to keep every customer that every fired up their game is also wrong. Some people try a game and realize it isn't for them. Others simply burn out. But sticking to the core of what made a game popular and has built success while evolving just enough to engage new and old players alike is often a recipe for success... Especially for a game-as-a-service. Give away everything to everyone and you risk offending your core players who are spending money in the emporium. Make everything too hard and you don't have enough of a player base to sustain the game. But strike that balance, and for everyvolayer you might lose, you've made 98 others happy and might pull in a few new players that like the faster PvP action.
So, if you ask me who's opinion I trust more: Rare's marketing department, or some random forum warrior... I'm gonna say rare knew what they were in for when they made these decisions.
@strangeness said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
Some folks will never be reasoned with (on either side) and I see no point in continuing the debate once I've gotten this off my mind:
I see that really lasted. Good to have you back.
That's actually not accurate at all. Plenty of businesses cater to a specific clientele and don't try to please everyone. A upscale fine dining restaurant won't have a kid's menu or kid's activities, and doendt try to have "more customers" by being kid friendly. They understand that their core audience may be wealthy older people or a trendy "date" restaurant. And having families and kids actually creates an atmosphere that would lose them their core audience. Not many wealthy dates happen at Chuck-e Cheese.
Sure, that's true as a general concept, but its not really relevant here. This isn't some little boutique indie game and it isn't a hardcore PvP battle royale game. Its an open sandbox game that just dropped in an update that lets people skip sailing through an open sandbox. This isn't Chuck-e Cheese serving a new pizza, its Chuck-e Cheese serving oysters on a half shell.
In MANY cases, trying to please everyone and bring in more just alienates a core audience and makes everything "less." Businesses spend time and effort building a specific image, and they have marketing arms that crunch numbers and polls and ensure they are hitting those standards. Gaming communities are no different.
Sure, and businesses make errors. With marketing arms and number crunchers they still make errors that undermine their standards and even sink companies. Game companies are no different.
So, let's take this forum post as a microcosm. How many are advocating to let everyone get the curse "their way." I've seen... Two. How many have said that Rare probably knows what they are doing. I've seen 15 or so. Not the "vocal minority."
I would question your count. The idea that this has been a non-problematic update that only two people are asking for re-balances and changes to is... interesting.
I'm not telling anyone to get lost or stop playing. But this notion that any game company needs to keep every customer that every fired up their game is also wrong. Some people try a game and realize it isn't for them. Others simply burn out. But sticking to the core of what made a game popular and has built success while evolving just enough to engage new and old players alike is often a recipe for success... Especially for a game-as-a-service. Give away everything to everyone and you risk offending your core players who are spending money in the emporium. Make everything too hard and you don't have enough of a player base to sustain the game. But strike that balance, and for everyvolayer you might lose, you've made 98 others happy and might pull in a few new players that like the faster PvP action.
Yep, strike a balance, good idea. Do you think it might be useful to them, if they're seeking to find a tricky balance to a living game that's still being tweaked and adjusted to point out when the balance feels off? There's an idea that I've heard a lot from game designers and developers and its that you should always listen when your players tell you that they're unhappy with an element in your game, and then ignore them when they tell you how to fix it. Pointing out when you don't like a new update, or when you think its poorly balanced, for example, when you can get more progress by turning up and firebombing your own ship than you can by kicking to death a skeleton lord while under active fire from another player, is useful feedback. The thing that's possibly less valuable to a professional games developer is likely to be shouting down people who are raising those observations. Still, potato, potato.
So, if you ask me who's opinion I trust more: Rare's marketing department, or some random forum warrior... I'm gonna say rare knew what they were in for when they made these decisions.
And I'm going to say that an active and intelligent company who is making a game that they keep making updates and tweaks to over decades to the point where they run an entire alternative version of the game just to gather feedback probably appreciates a process of ongoing feedback. But who knows who is really right there.
No, you're probably correct, marketing is famously a highly scientific discipline that only attracts the best and the brightest and very rarely makes significant mistakes. Its why so few popular franchises hit massively unpopular versions when the money causes marketing to have more control than creative. And where that does rarely happen, it practically never happens in the gaming industry.
@scurvywoof said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
In fairness, you are correct here. Either no one raises the hourglass and does something else or the game refuses to spawn invaders on a ship doing something already. There needs to be a serious reward increase to defending, imo.
I think everyone's on the same page there, in my opinion it would make playing in different ways far more viable and would be a massive first step to making this an interesting mode and an introduction to the PvP elements for PvE leaning players.
In your post which I responded to here, you sounded like you meant that you didn’t care enough for Rare to actually add a PvP way to get Gold Curse. In another of my posts, you can see someone pointed out you didn’t mean that and I acknowledged it.
Fair enough.
Maybe you don’t mean to sound entitled, but your posts make it seem that way. Apologies for any misconceptions I’ve been having about your posts.
The point is not to ask to be given something, but to ask that there be a wider lane of ways to earning them. At the moment the defending mode is so poorly rewarded as to make PvE leaning skills meaningless and so rather than this being a mode for players to try out more of the game experience and explore more of the game its become something that has led some people to just being re-enforced in thinking that a certain section of play isn't for them, which feels like a massive missed opportunity. That combined with a matchmaking system that isn't doing what it was advertised to and rather than this being a chance to bring together disparate players it seems to be needlessly driving more of a wedge between them.
As someone else said, you’ve moved the goalposts again. Gold curse can not be obtained through any form of PvP. Sure, it happens in a PvEvP world, but rarely will you need to fight anyone, and nowhere, in any Tall Tale, do you need to fight someone.
As I pointed out, observing that someone making the opposite point to you has given a poor example isn't moving the goalposts, its just pointing out that someone else's example is flawed. And even if not, and even if all the other things I've said about the Gold Curse weren't true that makes it not relevant, yes, its bad that, even with it being a tiny percentage of the overall endeavor, that people should be forced to play in a manner they don't want to to complete the Gold Curse. You think that's a poor design choice, so do I, and I think more of that design choice is worse, which is why I'm complaining about it being adopted again.
You know what the Gold Curse is a good example of? My point that a cosmetic only needs to be cool or exclusive to be attractive, and that its pointless one being both. Did anyone start playing and look at the gold hoarders and think "Yeah, that's the cool look I want, Trump's internal decorator in disfiguring industrial accident"? Or did people look at how much of a soul crushing elitist grind it was to get and think "It proves I'm hardcore, I don't care if it makes me look like my parents were one half human one half gold lamé sofa, I'm having it"?
You know why there are more rewards for these curses? Because you have to put in a fair bit of work for them. The same goes for Gold Curse, but that was around long before the Flameheart versus Pirate Lord story line heated up. It was long before Belle became a part of the actual game, a long time before any of the new adventures happened to build on Merrick more.
To shorten that, there wasn’t anything to add on to Gold Curse because there was no feasible way to expand upon it.I'm not sure that's the reason, I mean, its a good reason for why it hasn't been true for the previous curses, but I'm not sure its why it is true for this one. But even if it was, it wouldn't change the fact that by being the route into whole range of game areas, content and cosmetics its demonstrably different from the Gold Curse.
Being moved to the edge of the map is fine. It removes the chance that a random ship may have two ships spawn on either side of them whilst they are sailing. The issue is the lack of reward for defending. No one does it. If they do, you rarely spawn on them. I’ve fought probably 40-60 battles and only 5 or 6 have been actually invading someone who is doing something.
The thing is that I think you should have the chance of ships spawning on you while you're sailing. You should engage with the whole engine, not just part of it because it's currently inconvenient.
Again, the lack of reward for defending is a mistake, I'm not seeing anyone who doesn't agree on that, that seems to be a significant and universally agreed on flaw, if they fix that, maybe there can be a reconvening and reconsideration. Fix that and level out the matchmaking and it might be okay. As I've said, I'd still rather it was more organic, but that might be too much to ask.
I do think the chance of a random PvE encounter has been lowered if you are fighting in the mode. I don’t understand why, but it certainly seems that way.
As I understand it, PvE encounters are like landmines (sea mines?) that sit there and wait you to float over them. Any mode that teleports your ship to a contained area, and often a contained area out of the main sea lanes, would inevitably lower the odds of encountering PvE encounters.
Regardless of that, you have to do PvP with the threat of PvE being ever present. It goes both ways. If you refuse to see that, then God, I’m not going to bother anymore.
The reduced possibility of partial experience of PvE is still present, fair enough, but its massively reduced and barely present. The point is that there's the base game, it is what it is, you do PvE, you do PvP, you engage with the game how it is, and that, I think, you need to accept as your base for the game to even engage here. Then we have a mode that allows you to skip huge chunks of the game mechanics, and the question is if that's still engaging with that same engine in meaningfully the same way. If I want to do some PvE, if I load up the game and all I want to do is sail over to the Hunter's call and spend half an hour fishing, I need to sail the open ocean with other players, I need to anchor up and spend fifteen minutes or so bobbing around on the sea with everyone else. Now there's a mode where I decide what I want to do, hit a button and I'm cut out from engaging with the game in any way at all until the thing I asked for is served up to me on a tray. Now, on that tray might there be a little bit of the remaining game served up also? Yes, sure, but is it way, way less than if I engaged with the whole of the mechanics of the game, the way everyone else has through the whole history of the game up until the introduction of this mode? I think yes, I think significantly and problematically so. I think that encouraging people to sit in a waiting room under the ocean instead of making the seas a richer and more organic location is bad. I think that's a slightly different problem with the mode than the one generally being looked at here, but I do think it means that in this mode there's a hugely reduced PvE engagement, and to be honest, a reduced organic PvP engagement, and I think that's a problem.
@gtothefo The issue is that the seas were dead long before this mode came out. This mode came to fruition because of a lack of organic anything. So, while this mode makes the issue worse, it allows people to engage in PvP without having to sail for hours on end to even see a single ship. There definitely needs to be more encouragement for defending and definitely more rewards to go along with that encouragement. I believe that another issue with a lack of organic activity are server stamps. They separate an already small number of players into groups of even smaller amounts of players. With regions like Oceania already having a small number of players, server stamps greatly inflate the issue. Cross stamp queuing will help with queue times, but what about the main servers?
They are stuck on 5 ships per server and are still unstable. There needs to be some major improvements to allow for more ships on a server. More ships means a higher chance for organic activity. There also needs to be more rewards for said organic activity. Right now, there's nothing to really get. I don't want the new curses achievable through PvE, but definitely something of equal value that can be obtained by playing the regular game.
@scurvywoof I do agree. Personally one of the things that bugs me is that once you hit the hourglass they start by trying to match people up with those of similar skill level and then over time accept a wider and wider difference in ability levels until a "match" is found. I don't see why, particularly as a defender, it shouldn't be possible to set the ceiling for how much of a difference in levels you're willing to accept on a match-up. That would give less experienced PvP players a far better experience, a sense that there was a possibility of learning and growing through the process rather than just getting run over. Frankly, if they can't find someone of an acceptable level, I'm fine with not getting anyone. I understand the idea of the invader being willing to eventually take anyone rather than sit in the queue, but as defender the point is that you're still playing the game with what should be a more controlled PvP experience. It should be PvP that's suitable for non-PvP players as much as it is for PvP players, but currently, its just not. Its all well and good to say that people will get better over time, but there's a reason they don't teach boxing by throwing people in with the heavyweight champion of the world as soon as they've strapped their gloves on.
I really had visions of the War Map being some sort of multi-server map where you could see where there were clusters of engaged people and tunnel over to interesting hot zones for massed epic battles such that lesser fighters could add something of value by being the chaff or flanks while learning from more skilled fighters on both sides. It being the chance to sign up for being tossed into a mincing machine while trying to learn from the blades just feels like wasted potential.
From what I've seen, defending is not worth it, and the game mode works fine with just invading ships as you and your oponent will be rise from the depth at the same time.
Also, I think Rare made an oversight. Level 35 Repaer title and Level 30 Servant title are the same. So yeah, even Rare can make some mistakes.
I don't understand the argument that you should be able to earn everything by doing an activity you specifically want to. I've never seen a player that only likes Gold Hoarder quests complain about not earning Merchant Alliance rewards from said Gold Hoarder quests. I don't like the idea that in order for the game to be "inclusive" everything must be available for every playstyle.
If someone wants something, they should work for it.
@mferr11 said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
I don't understand the argument that you should be able to earn everything by doing an activity you specifically want to. I've never seen a player that only likes Gold Hoarder quests complain about not earning Merchant Alliance rewards from said Gold Hoarder quests. I don't like the idea that in order for the game to be "inclusive" everything must be available for every playstyle.
If someone wants something, they should work for it.
Anecdotally, the skeleton and phantom curses are among the two most requested cosmetics in the game. That is the keystone of this argument: players from all corners of the sea want them.
Putting the curses behind PVP arena wins and streaks has irked the PVE and PVEVP. Why doesn't their preferred playstyle earn them these coveted curses? Are they not appreciated as much as the PVP/content creator communities by Rare? PVEers in particular feel left out and ignored and are "taking a break" this season because they feel discouraged and excluded from the game by way of not seeing a feasible way to earn the curses. (They hate or stink at PVP and don't want to farm 2000 losses to get each curse.)
I think the best part of that argument is that it works both ways. PVPers need to be appreciated as well, they are not an insignificant portion of the player base. It's good that they have access to earning these curses in a way they enjoy. That's all that's being asked: create a way for people who enjoy PVE to earn allegiance proportional to the amount of time they spend earning it.
But the point is, players from every walk of life in the game want these curses, and right now Rare is basically saying only PVPers deserve them. That has strongly discouraged and disengaged large swathes of players who now aren't playing this season because they don't see a realistic way for them to get the curses. I advocate for this because 1) more players in the game is better for everyone, 2) if they reward playing hourglass with first win bonus/daily deeds/Bones Rush hours, the more casual players may try and maybe enjoy hourglass, which is better for everyone in hourglass, and 3) I personally find repetitive PVP quite boring and would like to mix up my activities while grinding my allegiance levels up.
The main issues are the poor matchmaking with casual players being destroyed by pvp veterans and a lack of a lower risk way to earn allegiance that is more accepting for the casual playerbase. Defensive mode is probably going to be the key way to keep people playing. Possibly a way to opt in without invasion initially to encourage organic pvp at first could be an option.
One thing for certain though, the mode needs to remain PvP with the E only boosting gains during victory.
@mferr11 I think the problem mostly stems from is you can still earning Merchant Alliance rewards by only doing Gold Hoarder quests because you can find Merchant's loot randomly while doing the quest, it'll be slow but you can still make progress. While I don't mind PVP being the main way to get Allegiance, it feels like winstreaks being the only real multiplier in gaining allegiance is an oversite, because at a certain point if you are not doing PVP back to back to back and winning you are barely progress. I hope Rare will add some stuff to supplement the allegiance gain for playing as defenders so we might have more fun organic PVP moments.
@a10dr4651 said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
One thing for certain though, the mode needs to remain PvP with the E only boosting gains during victory.
Why is that certain? I have to disagree with this point. I think the indisputable facts are 1) the game will last longer the more players it accumulates and retains, 2) the curses are two of the most requested cosmetics in the game, and 3) the curses are desirable to PVP and PVE and PVEVP players alike.
So the question is, how does Rare make the curses reasonably obtainable by players who don't like, aren't good at, or don't care to try PVP? Because I think they are a nigh-insignificant portion of the player base that is "taking a break" from season 8 and unless season 9 offers them a reasonable avenue to the curses it is questionable whether or not they will return, which I hope is something that we want universally (more players is good for everyone).
Now there have been plenty of ideas on how to get the more casual players to engage in hourglass:
- Daily first win bonus level will encourage casuals to play PVP and actually try to win because they need that first win. That second part is most important because I think we would all want to discourage loss farming.
- Daily deed to play 10 matches to gain a level. I like this one less than the first because it would encourage loss farming for a fast level.
- Simply increase the allegiance gain for a loss. It makes the path to the curses less tedious for PVE and PVEVPers which gets them into hourglass more. That's how hourglass thrives, by bringing in the casuals players. Otherwise it's just gonna be PVP grognards and will die just like Arena did.
I feel those suggestions would encourage the casuals and the PVEVPers to play more hourglass. But what about the PVEers? While yes I will certainly agree they are a vocal minority, every pirates counts IMO so we want to find a way to engage and retain them as well.
The main issues are the poor matchmaking with casual players being destroyed by pvp veterans and a lack of a lower risk way to earn allegiance that is more accepting for the casual playerbase. Defensive mode is probably going to be the key way to keep people playing.
Yup, agree 100%. How do you encourage players to play defensively? By rewarding them for doing so. That's why I'm suggesting more rewards for faction treasury. Ease them into the PVP waters by rewarding them for defending. The queues already match invader to invader as a priority it seems, so if the PVEers only get invaded 1/3 of the time it's a great start. Gain some levels, sink, gain some levels, sink. Gaining some levels is absolutely key though, they won't play if they aren't incentivized. But in order for faction treasury to actually be able to gain levels, allegiance needs to be severely increased. That's why I believe every faction treasury level should garner a level in and of itself when turned in even without combat. It's that "risk but no guarantee" of combat that will ease the casuals into hourglass I believe.
If you don't agree or believe the gains is too much, how do you recommend Rare reach out to, engage, and incentivize these players to return for season 9?
@lordqulex
"Daily first win bonus level will encourage casuals to play PVP and actually try to win because they need that first win. That second part is most important because I think we would all want to discourage loss farming.
Daily deed to play 10 matches to gain a level. I like this one less than the first because it would encourage loss farming for a fast level."These suggestions are good and both PvP. These curses are supposed to be end game content. Making them easy to get through PvE severely devalues what they mean. They are in the same leagues as the good boy sails and TSD items. You know it's a veteran who has worked hard when you see them.
They need to introduce casuals into this at a lower risk with less reward but it needs to remain PvP. PvP is a core part of Sea of Thieves, always has been, always will be. In factr PvE is mostly there to encourage PvP.
@lordqulex said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
Anecdotally, the skeleton and phantom curses are among the two most requested cosmetics in the game. That is the keystone of this argument: players from all corners of the sea want them.
Putting the curses behind PVP arena wins and streaks has irked the PVE and PVEVP. Why doesn't their preferred playstyle earn them these coveted curses? Are they not appreciated as much as the PVP/content creator communities by Rare? PVEers in particular feel left out and ignored and are "taking a break" this season because they feel discouraged and excluded from the game by way of not seeing a feasible way to earn the curses. (They hate or stink at PVP and don't want to farm 2000 losses to get each curse.)
You... you're using the argument that PvE/PvPvE players have been ignored, when Adventure mode has been well catered to for the past 3 years. Your mode wasn't dying to inactivity, abandonment, ignorance, and disinterest from most popular content creators, the developers, and the majority of the playerbase. You got upgraded voyages, new world events, cool time limited events with exclusive cosmetics, PvE-only activities such as Tall Tales, including 5 that involve the popular Disney character Captain Jack Sparrow, new enemies past the average skeletons and sharks, new locations to explore/conquer, and several other things that the old PvP mode, Arena didn't get. You dare to say you're ignored because 2 heavily requested cosmetics are locked behind a grind you don't like or are incapable of conquering. This is a very disgraceful delivery if these are your intentions and perspective after every post you've made trying to denounce the main grinding content of Season 8.
I think the best part of that argument is that it works both ways. PVPers need to be appreciated as well, they are not an insignificant portion of the player base. It's good that they have access to earning these curses in a way they enjoy. That's all that's being asked: create a way for people who enjoy PVE to earn allegiance proportional to the amount of time they spend earning it.
PvE players have had 7 seasons (or more reasonably in time, nearly 2 years of PvE content that might have some PvP in it) with about 4 different curses that can currently only be obtained by engaging in voyages where the goal isn't to sink people outside of self defense, it's to solve mysteries, puzzles, and basic busy-work no different to what the game's main loop of activity usually is. This curse grind is different, it's allowed to be different, it deserves to be different, because unlike the 4 PvE curses that you get with time, dedication, and a Rarethief article, these are currently earned through honed pirate v pirate skill and are respected cosmetics that make their impact so well, that people like you are feverishly trying to find an "inclusive" way to have everyone else beat around the initial grind just to have what you want, a genuinely flawed way to approach a grind that respects PvP players and oncoming swabbies in training nearly to the level of respect PvE players have been given for years now.
But the point is, players from every walk of life in the game want these curses, and right now Rare is basically saying only PVPers deserve them. That has strongly discouraged and disengaged large swathes of players who now aren't playing this season because they don't see a realistic way for them to get the curses. I advocate for this because 1) more players in the game is better for everyone, 2) if they reward playing hourglass with first win bonus/daily deeds/Bones Rush hours, the more casual players may try and maybe enjoy hourglass, which is better for everyone in hourglass, and 3) I personally find repetitive PVP quite boring and would like to mix up my activities while grinding my allegiance levels up.
I said it in this exact thread earlier, if people are going to leave/quit a game over a grind for cosmetics they want, that's weak thinking and not something worth encouraging or enabling in the slightest. The whole point of this PvP system being introduced in the wild, unfair, and chaotic Adventure mode is to satisfy the current hunger for PvP, while also introducing an approachable but potentially exhausting grind to keep ALL players committed to playing the mode for as long as possible (since, based on the way you and the people supporting your opinions have been showing, you heavily dislike PvP due to over committing to the grind, which is proving not to be healthy for your group individually). The realistic way to get the curse is about as realistic as it is to get Gold Curse without a Rarethief guide, take it one step at a time and you'll eventually get to the goal you're looking for, it could take months, it could take years, the effort you put in and succeed is what you get back in terms of rewards.
@lordqulex mate, pvpers have been ignored for the last 7 seasons. They finally have something. The curses are accessible to anyone who wants them. Some will spend more time than others but that is true for so much in SoT.
I'd be okay with a double credit for your first win every day. Maybe even some bonus rep for your first 5 or 10 matches. Don't give out full levels.
@nex-stargaze said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
You... you're using the argument that PvE/PvPvE players have been ignored
No, I'm arguing they are feeling ignored and discouraged, and are leaving. I never once said they are being ignored. By definition feelings aren't logical. I won't argue that the last 7 seasons of content have greatly rewarded PVE, but also won't argue that in the last 7 seasons there is anything that a PVPer couldn't get. Turning in stolen treasure awards just as much season renown as farmed treasure. The problem is people are taking a break from season 8, and I'm trying to think of ways to get them back.
I said it in this exact thread earlier, if people are going to leave/quit a game over a grind for cosmetics they want, that's weak thinking and not something worth encouraging or enabling in the slightest.
I mean, I can't say this enough, you will lose Sea of Thieves and Hourglass with it if Rare doesn't retain players. That should be pretty self evident. I don't particularly care what kind of players you want in the game when the economics of it just requires players in the game regardless of type. I don't mind what type of pirate I encounter on the seas, friendly, jolly, violent, the encounter is what thrills me as long as it's not toxic. But the truth is I've never encountered a toxic PVEer. Yes they whine when you sink them, yes they run and red sea, but they've never jumped on my ship and called me racial slurs or insulted my mother. Only the PVPers you so desperately want to keep happy have ever done that to me. The fact that you are perfectly ready, willing, and able to allow fun-loving players to migrate away from the game just so you can get your status symbol and be surrounded by your type of players is very telling about just how selfish you are and strongly encouraging me to block you so I never have to listen to your elitist drivel ever again.
@lordqulex There have been plenty of comms and now milestones you can not complete by doing pvp. The adventures, tall tales, former time limited events, even the current grogmanay are all pve focused. And if pve players are feeling neglected, that is their choice to not participate in the new content.
I'd be willing to bet that the next several seasons will also be pve focused.
@captain-coel said in I hate pvp but really want the curses:
@lordqulex There have been plenty of comms and now milestones you can not complete by doing pvp. The adventures, tall tales, former time limited events, even the current grogmanay are all pve focused. And if pve players are feeling neglected, that is their choice to not participate in the new content.
I'd be willing to bet that the next several seasons will also be pve focused.
It is a PVEVP sandbox. Before Pirate's Life players would sail around looking for a fight. If they chose to do nothing else in that time that's their prerogative, but there is absolutely nothing stopping them from attacking ships they see, a.k.a. PVP.
I was stooging around on an island trying to spawn some ocean crawlers to drunkenly repel when I noticed a galleon in the distance. They sailed over to my location and unloaded all cannons at me. I sailed circles around them for funzos trying to get a drunken cannonball hit.
Don't tell me all those activities are PVE. They are PVEVP by design. Combat happens during PVE. Don't tell me there's no room for PVE in hourglass when there is all manner of PVP all up in PVE's business. (Which it should be, absolutely. This is a PVEVP sandbox after all.)
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