98.96 % Win Rate in PvP mode

  • Streamer Mino got the golden skeleton curse with score of 1421W vs 15L. Impressive feat. This also means that there were 1421 players that lost to him, and if you seen his gameplay, it's just being deleted with no hope to do anything.

    Combined with almost non-existing progression for losing:

    • How many players do you think had fun playing against him?

    • How many have stopped playing the pvp mode after?

    • How many just don't launch SoT anymore?

    Considering how much the progression depends on win rate, such large difference between W/L is quite bad news even if he is just an outlier.

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  • How many players do you think had fun playing against him?

    Seeing as many wont know who that is, Just another player they lost too. So not many

    How many have stopped playing the pvp mode after?

    After what? Losing or realizing they hate grinding pvp content. :p

    How many just don't launch SoT anymore?

    Under what reasons? Over a single lose or many?

    Considering how much the progression depends on win rate

    It understandable. Winning you gain more exp compare to losing. It always been that way in video games.

  • I think the amount of players that quit the game over this content specifically is minimal, very minimal, I think anyone that is done this season was mostly done before the season started, the content didn't sacrifice existing content like some has in the past.

    The issues in Sot lead to season 8 content, they aren't created by it.

    This content was never going to be widespread popular or successful, it has clear groups it caters to, just as all content does, pvp and pve.

    I think putting long time requested cosmetics (by largely pve enjoyers) as the rewards for pvp content was really their only main mistake, it created more tanking, it gave pvers far more of a substantive criticism by choosing those specific cosmetics.

    I wouldn't be surprised if some emporium version of the ghost pops up, imo spinal was strategic timing.

  • @arch-ideall some of the best battles i had was the one i lost, i have learned more from from battles i lost.

    I feel like the line of questioning is overly dramatic.

    Its a pvp mode in which 2 ships enter, 1 ship leaves and you agree to this the moment you vote for that hourglass.

  • Mino is an outlier.
    Is this an impressive feat ? Sure !
    Is this concerning for the health of the game mode ? As long as Rare doesn't make changes based on outliers I don't think so. The man played the mode at least 8h a day for a month. As long as this isn't considered the baseline, we're fine.

    Grinding a competitive mode wasn't going to be everyone's cup of tea. Imo their biggest mistake (if they wanted to entice the casuals / pve inclined crews) was to make the grind 0-100 so steep and the progress until 100 feeling unrewarding. Rare made the grind unappealing for casual gamers (less than 10h a week), that's imo the real problem. Not some outliers' winrate.

  • I'm confused what's the point of the post

  • @ajm123 I think it was meant to be a rant against the SBMM not working properly. Imo it failed to recognize that for people on the extreme ends of the ladder, it cannot give only fair fights.

  • @arch-ideall

    My stats are perfect. 100% lose.

    Get on my level bro!

    (Like seriously, I'd like an achievement or two 😂)

  • Main point of this thread is that when such large win rates happen, it has to be balanced by someone losing, in which case the flawed matchmaking is robbing the losing players both of fun and progression - and that of course has negative effect on population both in and out of the pvp mode.

  • So what are you suggesting here? I don't undetstand. Should mino only face people with same winratio and sit in que for whole day just because he is very good? You are making an example out of one of the most extreme outliers here.

    I played and lost against mino also (twice this season), but I had alot of fun even tho I lost.

  • I honestly, genuinely want a Rare developer to just come on this thread, and with full honesty in their soul, post "Skill issue" to the OP.

    Mino pulling this off in just under a MONTH since the season's release is beyond wild. Though, I suppose we should also expect a good chunk of people to have a bit of salt and jealousy because they're either stuck in endless queues, get erased every 2 fights or less, or haven't been able to dedicate time like that for something they genuinely want.

    It will take years, hell, an eternity with a side of an eviction notice of practice to get on Mino's skill level for this game. He's an EU NAL champion that plays extremely well and smoothly, this is well earned and we should respect that fully. Anyone that really has an issue with that needs to re=evaluate their reasons for playing the game.

    A matchmaking system, skill-based or not, is never going to be perfect. Right now, it's not perfect, and so far is only presenting severe skill difference issues to the lesser players that attempt to play it. Lack of cross-region (cross-stamp) matchmaking, the massive de-motivation in the rewards up to lv 100 (it's literally just up-gradable figureheads and captaincy stuff, like who genuinely cares), and the larger end of the playerbase consistently whining about people better/smarter than them is just some of the issues that come with Season 8's main content.

  • @nex-stargaze said in 98.96 % Win Rate in PvP mode:

    I honestly, genuinely want a Rare developer to just come on this thread, and with full honesty in their soul, post "Skill issue" to the OP.

    I rather suspect that the Rare developers are too busy and have far better things to do that to come here and personally respond to posts. I for one would rather they concentrated on improving the game, bringing more content and seasons, and fixes bugs than coming here and responding to such requests.

  • @nex-stargaze It is "skill issue". The progression combined with broken matchmaking works only for great pvp players, while being peak torture for players who are far from great at pvp. Look at how long Mino had to grind with almost 100% win rate, and now multiply it over dozen times if you were to progress by losing battles not having fun. Years of suffering ahead. It would be quite great if Rare could acknowledge that the playerbase is just not skilled enough for the pro-gamer progression they designed for season 8.

  • @arch-ideall said:

    ...and now multiply it over dozen times if you were to progress by losing battles not having fun. Years of suffering ahead.

    Almost as if it was designed to be long-term content. Idk why some folks are acting like they need to hit 1000 by the end of the season.

    I put maybe 8-10hr/week in SoT since S8, and I even took a break for a little over a week. My win rate certainly isn't 98.96%. Yet I'm 50/55 for servants/guardians respectively. Another month at this pace and I should hit 100 in at least one of them. No grinding or rushing. This content isn't going anywhere.

  • If losing drove players away, games like Dark Souls, Elden Ring or even the classics Contra or Battletoads wouldn't even exist.

  • @theblackbellamy said ..

    I put maybe 8-10hr/week in SoT since S8 ... My win rate certainly isn't 98.96%...

    I put in roughly the same amount of hours per week, having only started playing one week, or maybe two, before Season 8 dropped.

    My win rate is a staggering 0%. I bet nobody can beat that!

  • I have no clue who this is, but unless you got matched up against him over and over, i dont think losing to him 1 time would be so detrimental that you would quit the game forever. Some times you win, some times you lose, if you lose to him once or twice, it would just seem like losing a couple times.

    Just because he sunk over 1k players, doesnt mean that he sunk the same players over and over constantly. If that was the case it would make sense.

  • @targasbr Nor would any competitive game in the world. Something like team fortress 2 you can get absolutely rolled by the enemy team every round and still have an absolute blast!

    If winning is your only goal in any competitive game then that means you wont be having fun unless you are winning. For me, games are about fun before all else. I would rather sink laughing to a one ball that i tried to dodge but accidentally stepped into, than win a fight that left me bored.

  • @goldsmen

    Totally agree with you. I don’t play to win (which is a good job in this game, otherwise I’d be super sad all the time 🤣 )

    I play as I just love the game. The sailing about doing various missions, the thrill of the not knowing what’s, or who’s, over the next wave. Is that person going to be peaceful or aggressive? Are they new like me or an old lag? Will I die today or live? Will any of my cannonballs actually hit their intended target for once? 🤣

  • @goldsmen He isn't the only player with win rate much higher than 50% being matched against players with win rate much lower than 50%.

    Having fun in the pvp mode is quite difficult when it's all about being boarded and spawn-camped by Arena players or tuckers that should be playing against players like Mino instead of players like me who have hard time even against average players. The game mode is so absurd that today I actually had to try hard sinking on purpose, because the sweats often don't shoot a single cannonball, they just steal your ship, sail it out of bounds and leave you with no progression. The peak of my "fun" today, was to start scuttling the second of being boarded without holes in the ship - having to use the scuttle feature in pvp, in dedicated pvp mode, that's the rock bottom of depression.

    To clarify, I am almost blind and can't double tap to save my life, so even before the mode started, already expected to be progressing mostly by losing battles. Even somewhat expected matchmaking to not work (fair fights isn't something SoT offers). What I DID NOT expect tho was Rare making such toxic progression system, especially for players that lose more often than not. Flawed matchmaking just highlights the player-unfriendly progression.

  • I am more interested in his thoughts on the matter. Does he enjoy his games? Will he still play the mode now he has completed it?

    I worked at a holiday park as a sports coach. Kids came to play soccer for a bit of fun as a booked activity and a parent booked on a kid who played in a league. Nobody could match him, parents complained. So, I put him up against every kid on the pitch as a team of one. He beat them all and still scored. Him versus 19 children. This is what the matchmaker faces with these outlier players.

    So, it's a huge achievement to finish the mode as this player has but I am glad I am not them. It can be lonely at the very, very top.

  • @arch-ideall ok so the main point of this post is as follows, correct me if i am wrong:

    “Why do players with low win rates get matched up with players high win rates”

    There is multiple answers that all fit the question:

    1 - current player separation (read more here

    So players are separated on several levels:

    • region
    • stamp
    • server

    Each region has multiple stamps and each stamp has multiple servers, currently migrating and thus matchmaking between stamps is impossible, they are working on that.

    This means that whenever you are matchmaking you are only able to matchmake to a subset of a subset of a subset of players.

    2 - imbalance in factions, also explained in the previously shared link and als directly follows the point made above here and the link also divulges in how they are goong to better that situation

    3 - the goal of matchmaking is to get a match and the backend systems work on a certain order:
    3.1 search for a crew of the opposing faction with simuleer Win/Loss records
    3.2 if 3.1 fails search for a crew of the opposing faction with a little less similar Winn/Loss records

    And so on and so on.

    If nobody of equal skill is available at the moment i would rather battle a sweaty enemy (learn from losses) or battle at all then just sitting there waiting for a match until my son is old enough to start playing the game and fight me.

    This doesn’t mean that matchmaking is broken and then there is the fact that this sbmm is brand spanking new and since its ELO based it will take time to level out especially for players just hopping on to the system because usually a base “score” is set in order to have a starting point and from there it raises/lowers

  • @goldsmen said in 98.96 % Win Rate in PvP mode:

    @targasbr Nor would any competitive game in the world. Something like team fortress 2 you can get absolutely rolled by the enemy team every round and still have an absolute blast!

    If winning is your only goal in any competitive game then that means you wont be having fun unless you are winning. For me, games are about fun before all else. I would rather sink laughing to a one ball that i tried to dodge but accidentally stepped into, than win a fight that left me bored.

    That's exactly what I try to show to many players, winning or losing, the important thing is to have fun.
    Just today talking to a friend, who told me that he likes to find bad players in the new PvP mode, I said that I prefer the opposite, I like a good battle even if I lose. I'm in no rush to get the curses.

  • @arch-ideall said in 98.96 % Win Rate in PvP mode:

    @goldsmen He isn't the only player with win rate much higher than 50% being matched against players with win rate much lower than 50%.

    Having fun in the pvp mode is quite difficult when it's all about being boarded and spawn-camped by Arena players or tuckers that should be playing against players like Mino instead of players like me who have hard time even against average players. The game mode is so absurd that today I actually had to try hard sinking on purpose, because the sweats often don't shoot a single cannonball, they just steal your ship, sail it out of bounds and leave you with no progression. The peak of my "fun" today, was to start scuttling the second of being boarded without holes in the ship - having to use the scuttle feature in pvp, in dedicated pvp mode, that's the rock bottom of depression.

    To clarify, I am almost blind and can't double tap to save my life, so even before the mode started, already expected to be progressing mostly by losing battles. Even somewhat expected matchmaking to not work (fair fights isn't something SoT offers). What I DID NOT expect tho was Rare making such toxic progression system, especially for players that lose more often than not. Flawed matchmaking just highlights the player-unfriendly progression.

    I totally understand this. You know, I think Rare's intention was to draw players into the PvP mode by using the curses (the most requested ones) as the reward. However, the PvP in this game still have flaws, it is fun for a lot of people, but it still has flaws. Boarding seems to be necessary to end battle because the holes must be protected (I wonder how the game would have been if the ships had an actual healthbar from the start). But there are multiple things that make the current system not quite enjoyable. Having to rely on streaks, losses giving very little xp, matchmaking making duels between crews of very different skills, lack of rewards on the path to 100, sailing out of bounds by another player still counts as a abandon penalty, and so on.

    I understand the curses are made to be rewards, and I don't ask to get them extremely easy, I'm not asking to give them to me because I breath air, all I ask for is to make players who are not good at PvP a feeling that they are actually progressing and even if they lose they are still making progress towards the rewards. The other trading companies give you different rewards, access to the emmisaries, access to new outfits, access to new voyages, it actually feels like progress on the way to Pirate Legend. The allegiance sub factions just make the players repeat the same mode over and over and over until you get to 100, and that's why some already left the mode. There is a lack of feeling of progress for those who can't win consistently.

    In order for someone to win, someone else has to lose, and sometimes, they don't even get the tiny bit of progress for their effort because the system think they are leaving the battle. And those who can manage to win sometimes need to do it consecutively, because streaks, emmisary and the other multipliers seem to be what is required to progress. I bet that winning one match, then restarting the game and go for another win, win and restart, win and restart, still feels slow and punishing. Those multipliers feel like they are the necessary thing to progress, and by losing you can't get any of that.

    Perhaps less loss farmers would appear if losing would give a decent ammount of xp, and there were incentives to keep trying despite losing. Losers need something that motivates them to try and try again until they can accomplish their goal. Instead the current system just gives a very tiny portion of reputation and refuses to do anything else until you win. There is nothing that encourages to keep try. Nothing says "Don't worry, keep trying, you can do it", it feels more like "Come back here when you win".

    Doesn't matter if you survived a long time saving your ship, or if you sink within the first 30 seconds, the same ammount of xp is awarded.

    Yes, the mode is here to stay, it is a permanent addition to the game, and perhaps I should take my time. But that's something some of us don't have: time. And on top of that, the game mode may stay in the game, but it won't matter if the number of active players doing it is extremely low. That's the fear, that's why some want it as soon as possible, they fear it won't be obtainable in a near future because more and more people leave, feeling discouraged.

    Sorry for the long post.

  • @dragotech123 said in 98.96 % Win Rate in PvP mode:

    Nothing says "Don't worry, keep trying, you can do it", it feels more like "Come back here when you win".

    Well, yes, it's a "git gud" mode, as the sweatiest players will happily remind others when the subject comes up (and have been doing so since Insider, when the same issues were brought up).

    But then again, the mode has clearly been conceived by Rare as a way to appease the thirst for blood of the more pvp-hungry sweats, while somewhat alleviating the pvp pressure in adventure mode and giving pvp players (and streamers) a highly competitive outlet replacing/improving on Arena. The "must win to progress" factor has been part of it from the start, so i guess, mission accomplished.

  • @papatankers2041 said in 98.96 % Win Rate in PvP mode:

    So what are you suggesting here? I don't undetstand. Should mino only face people with same winratio and sit in que for whole day just because he is very good?

    YES.. Absolutely. if the game devs say they will balance matchmaking with a goal to have a 50% win rate, then it should deliver... even if it means the extreme outliers queue longer. Seal clubbing the bell curve is not a solution... and if indeed there is a skill gap that results in .05% of the population to have a 98%+ win rate then something is wrong with the balance of the game.

    S8 has proven the combat in SOT is janky and poorly design, easily exploitable by unintended combat mechanics that are the natural result of software and the difficultly of locking up all the edge cases. Whether it's wall banging, Animation cancelling, silent boarding, etc... Each one of those mechanics one must master to obtain a > 50% win rate reliably.

  • @goldsmen said in 98.96 % Win Rate in PvP mode:

    I have no clue who this is, but unless you got matched up against him over and over, i dont think losing to him 1 time would be so detrimental that you would quit the game forever. Some times you win, some times you lose, if you lose to him once or twice, it would just seem like losing a couple times.

    Just because he sunk over 1k players, doesnt mean that he sunk the same players over and over constantly. If that was the case it would make sense.

    Except that this does happen. I had a 6 game streak today where I sank to the same ship 3 times: win one match, sink to this crew, and then repeat two more times. I absolutely love this game, but I'm thinking I need another passtime until this is fixed because getting my teeth kicked in by the same guys, over and over, with nothing to show for it, is really not at all fun.

  • It is losing to a same player over and over it's just bullying for vets let's get for real

  • @arch-ideall I agree well said

  • @callmebackdraft I've heard the same thing in a two year old post about how they were going to fix things like this yeah right my guy not happening but we will wait and see but personally I don't think so

  • @lowandbold said in 98.96 % Win Rate in PvP mode:

    @callmebackdraft I've heard the same thing in a two year old post about how they were going to fix things like this yeah right my guy not happening but we will wait and see but personally I don't think so

    how where they going to fix something 2 years ago on something that wasnt even in the game two years ago :/ this kind of matchmaking came in when Season 8 released... anyway, i know for a fact they are working on it i just cant talk about it in any detail.

  • @lowandbold said in 98.96 % Win Rate in PvP mode:

    It is losing to a same player over and over it's just bullying for vets let's get for real

    It's not veterans fault, its the design of STAMPs that is the problem.

  • @callmebackdraft was referring to the pvp in general noobs vs vets and the reference to arena and pvp over all .and rare is the ones calling this a skill based pvp and it's not even close .they're fix for long load times in pvp was to feed vets noobs in pvp

  • @lowandbold said in 98.96 % Win Rate in PvP mode:

    @callmebackdraft was referring to the pvp in general noobs vs vets and the reference to arena and pvp over all .and rare is the ones calling this a skill based pvp and it's not even close .they're fix for long load times in pvp was to feed vets noobs in pvp

    it is clear to me that you dont know what you are talking about and what they are working on fixing...

    maybe read up on some stuff before coming here and saying stuff like that

  • @lowandbold I mean if those vets get into a stamp where they are no other players on their skill level, just noobs, do you expect so called vets to sit in queue for an hour to realize they got a scuffed stamp? and Re hop to a new server until they get extremely lucky to have other high 80% winrate crews?

    I mean good luck with that on Gally crews lol. The stamp is designed to match you with the next opponent closest to your hidden MMR. Trust me in saying sweats aren't having fun winning against swabbies, a 1 min sink into the next dive isn't a fun experience when your skill level isn't being tested. It's boring.

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