It seems like the game would be better off if it took reapers longer to get to level 5. I think emissaries might stay longer on the servers. As it is now, if I see a reaper I just quit and find another server.
Reaper level 5
Anything that nerfs pve reapers needs to be reworked in entire design otherwise it's killing production and rewarding non-organic no risk/high reward play, which is already far too enabled as it is
SweetSandMan has ideas/threads that are generally the balanced way to approach re-working if it were going to be done
As it is now, if I see a reaper I just quit and find another server.
But why....You are losing out on Risk=Reward. Your hindering yourself if your already Grade 5 and need to leave the server (if you dont server portal hop)
I think they need to make it so, If your a Grade 5 (besides Reaper) and you are attacked by a Reaper grade 5 crew, survive. You earn some bonus points.
You choosing to Run because a R5 appeared on the map, is a You problem. What if suddenly players who are OoS faction start attacking players?
@captainluke56 Making it take longer for Reapers to get to level 5 would be totally fine with some caveats...
...Get rid of Reapers being on the map for other crews until the Reaper reaches Grade 5
...Get rid of the little Emissary ships on the Emissary tables
_
There's 2 problems with the system as it stands...1).Reapers server as an on-demand PvP target for whatever hopper is looking for them
2). Other Emissaries just leave and hop servers (either before setting sail or after) to do their voyaging on a "safer" server that doesn't have a Reaper (of any grade) on it.
Those two things have virtually killed the organic risk/reward elements of the Emissary system and forced a complete justification for portal hopping and keeping your Emissary Flag as a Reaper. It's not good for the game, but it's seemingly the only thing that adds an element of Risk to the Emissary system these days.
@burnbacon Those OOS players don't see you on the map, that is the whole problem with Reaper-5. That special ability is just to OP and breaks the risk/reward system. For the emissary voyages you need to leave your ship to do stuff on islands (or underwater for the lost shipment). A reaper-5 knows exactly where you are and can also based on your position know if your on your ship or not and thus get to you unnoticed (the reaper can because of knowing your position also approach in a way that you can only see him when he is already very close..). And even when he approaches when you are on your ship, it makes completing your voyage impossible. You also can't run (he can see you on the map), so it just makes doing voyages as an emissary impossible for most (most of the reaper-5's are very skilled in pvp and the normal other emissary player is not that skilled).
It's not a coincidence that most players refuse to play as emissaries or even leave the server (because they want to play as emissary) if there is a reaper. The only fix that will work is just to remove the reaper-5 ability. Otherwise people will keep leaving those servers. I think most people would play on servers with Reaper(-5)'s if they wouldn't have that ability. That ability is the whole problem.
@super87ghost how about....
-Get rid of map visibility all-around for everyone
-Make it so that Reapers can only level up their Emissary with stolen loot
-Get rid of the little ships on the Emissary tables at outposts (at least for Reapers)That is a true balanced risk/reward system.
@sweetsandman said in Reaper level 5:
-Get rid of map visibility all-around for everyone
I would agree with that. If someone wants to be visible to lure in PvP oriented players, you would still have the Reapers Mark flag.
@sweetsandman said in Reaper level 5:
-Make it so that Reapers can only level up their Emissary with stolen loot
Disagree. This would only mean that part of the PvP wouldn't count anymore, since the enemy hadn't touched the loot yet. This would for instance result in having to wait before they get all the loot on board (think about fighting around world events) and then most 'fights' just resulting in running. PvP players would complain that they either have to keep chasing players most of the time and not actually fight or else not being able to rank up their flag.
Another negative is that people will just cheese their flag by switching loot or touching each others loot and this will only make alliance servers more powerfull for the reapers ledger.
I then rather see an option where touching loot will still raise the flag, but less then it does now (for instance only 50% of what it is now) and you would get a bigger raise in your grade when you sink a player ship, especially emissary ships (the higher the grade flag, the more it raises). But not for killing players though, otherwise you would only incentivise spawn killing.
@sweetsandman said in Reaper level 5:
-Get rid of the little ships on the Emissary tables at outposts (at least for Reapers)
Why? If the problem (R5's who can see everybody on the map) is gone, this shouldn't be a problem.
@super87ghost said in Reaper level 5:
@sweetsandman said in Reaper level 5:
-Make it so that Reapers can only level up their Emissary with stolen loot
Disagree. This would only mean that part of the PvP wouldn't count anymore, since the enemy hadn't touched the loot yet. This would for instance result in having to wait before they get all the loot on board (think about fighting around world events) and then most 'fights' just resulting in running. PvP players would complain that they either have to keep chasing players most of the time and not actually fight or else not being able to rank up their flag.
Regarding world events, Reapers would certainly need to play differently. They would need to take their lack of map visibility and lack of (as my next suggestion states) being known to the server to their advantage. They would need to approach world events with patience, with cunning, with strategy...more than just the bull-in-a-china shop approach that they are often forced into today. Reapers would be known for being the snake instead of the lion as it pertains to world events.
Another negative is that people will just cheese their flag by switching loot or touching each others loot and this will only make alliance servers more powerfull for the reapers ledger.
This game is already full of cheese, so as long as it's organic, I'm not opposed to it. Regarding alliance servers, maybe it would expose them even more and Rare would...ya know...actually do something about it.
I then rather see an option where touching loot will still raise the flag, but less then it does now (for instance only 50% of what it is now) and you would get a bigger raise in your grade when you sink a player ship, especially emissary ships (the higher the grade flag, the more it raises). But not for killing players though, otherwise you would only incentivise spawn killing.
I can get behind this and have proposed a similar thought in my other thread on reworking the Emissary system. 👍
-Get rid of the little ships on the Emissary tables at outposts (at least for Reapers)
Why? If the problem (R5's who can see everybody on the map) is gone, this shouldn't be a problem.
Except it is a problem. Part of the problem today is that when there's a Reaper (of any grade) on a server, no new Emissaries seem to appear and it effectively kills the server until the Reaper leaves. It's way too easy to look at the Emissary table or at your map, see there's a Reaper, and hop to a different server before ever even setting sail. That's as big of a problem as portal hopping as a G5 Reaper...but the former has justified the latter.
Making it harder to get lvl 5 on reaper only makes the emissaries stay on the server a while longer, but overall changes nothing.
The fact that everyone sees if youre a reaper and can just sell and leave is bad design and getting to lvl 5 on reaper, even now, often leads to a server with 0 emissaries on it.
So the reward you get for reaching lvl 5 = actually no reward as everyone has already left since they have seen you since lvl 1.
@sweetsandman said in Reaper level 5:
-Get rid of the little ships on the Emissary tables at outposts (at least for Reapers)
Why? If the problem (R5's who can see everybody on the map) is gone, this shouldn't be a problem.
Except it is a problem. Part of the problem today is that when there's a Reaper (of any grade) on a server, no new Emissaries seem to appear and it effectively kills the server until the Reaper leaves. It's way too easy to look at the Emissary table or at your map, see there's a Reaper, and hop to a different server before ever even setting sail. That's as big of a problem as portal hopping as a G5 Reaper...but the former has justified the latter.
I'm not going into everything, because it's already very late here (2am). But it is a problem because of the Reaper-5 ability. If you remove that, that problem is solved. People now don't want to play with a reaper on the map because of that ability. That they also don't want to play with lower grade reapers is because it's faster to rank up reaper then other emissaries, so before they got their flag to 5, the reaper (that already started earlier then them) would already be there and hunting them down with that overpowered ability. Without that ability there is no need for them to look for another server anymore, because the reaper won't be able to see them anymore and thus is just the same as other players now (because non-reapers can just as much be very aggressive)
Just because you think reaper 5 being able to see emissaries is a problem, does not mean its a problem.
The problem is more so that players see the reaper BEFORE they are lvl 5. That is what makes them leave.
If reapers had any sort of surprise element on reaching the 5th level, emissaries would have no option but to take the risk they get targetted by a reaper or then ditch the emissary bonus and not play with one.
If emissaries didnt see reapers 1-4 on the map / table the problem would also be gone. See? I can do "problem gone" arguements too. :P
You also have to understand that Emissaries are the reason Reapers exist. The game literally tells you youre taking a risk of being targetted by a reaper when you buy the emissary license. You gain more gold when running an emissary, but you take an extra risk.
The solution is not to just take away the extra risk and leave all the bonus gold.
@i-jusa-i said in Reaper level 5:
Just because you think reaper 5 being able to see emissaries is a problem, does not mean its a problem.
The problem is more so that players see the reaper BEFORE they are lvl 5. That is what makes them leave.
And why do they leave? Because of the R5 ability. So that IS the problem that makes people leave.
@i-jusa-i said in Reaper level 5:
If reapers had any sort of surprise element on reaching the 5th level, emissaries would have no option but to take the risk they get targetted by a reaper or then ditch the emissary bonus and not play with one.
That would destroy the risk/reward system, because you take away most risk for the reaper and increase the risk for the other emissaries. That would only lead to emissaries dying out even more, since players quickly adjust to that much higher risk you suddenly put on them. Bad idea.
It's not for nothing that R5 portal hoppers are so much complaints about and frustrates the community. It completely wrecks the risk/reward system. So making that the standard would be even worse.
"That would destroy the risk/reward system"
Ironic to see you say that when youre destroying the risk and reward system built into the emissaries by removing reaper 5 ability.
Your arguement of "R5 ability makes them leave so it IS the problem" is very invalid.
I can just as easily say "Seeing reapers 1-4 on the map and / or the reaper emissary table makes them leave so that IS the problem".
@i-jusa-i While I totally agree with you, altering the risk element of the Reaper Emissary would need to also impact the reward element somehow.
If the reward element weren't altered and I could get through Reaper 1-4 without being seen....I would 100% hop servers to farm Skeleton Fleet events, complete them in about 20-30 minutes, get to Grade 5 Reaper virtually undetected, sell and hop again while really only appearing on the map while selling.
@sweetsandman My point was mostly to show how Super87Ghost cant just go saying "this is problem, this needs to be gone". I dont think making lvls 1-4 invisible to other players is a good choice. But neither is taking out the risk completely like Super87Ghost seems to thin IS the solution.
@i-jusa-i said in Reaper level 5:
Ironic to see you say that when youre destroying the risk and reward system built into the emissaries by removing reaper 5 ability.
Perhaps read a bit back, since the whole problem mentioned was that that 'reward' didn't realy exist, because other emissaries are absent by the time someone gets to R5, because nobody wants to do an emissary around them... That was the whole problem.
And i never said that there shouldn't be something else to balance it then. That is your strawman here.
@i-jusa-i said in Reaper level 5:
Your arguement of "R5 ability makes them leave so it IS the problem" is very invalid.
I can just as easily say "Seeing reapers 1-4 on the map and / or the reaper emissary table makes them leave so that IS the problem".
Again: WHAT about the lower reapers makes them leave then? You still can't answer that. It is that ability they will get when they reach R5 that makes them flee. A lower grade reaper on its own isn't the problem.
@i-jusa-i said in Reaper level 5:
@sweetsandman My point was mostly to show how Super87Ghost cant just go saying "this is problem, this needs to be gone". I dont think making lvls 1-4 invisible to other players is a good choice. But neither is taking out the risk completely like Super87Ghost seems to thin IS the solution.
Here again you are strawmanning. I never said that Reaper-5 on its own is a problem, there are enough players who play on a server with a R5. The complaint from others where that nobody wants to do emissaries around a R5, because they are just assessing the risk/reward and come to a conclusion that it's not worth it. That is the problem. I didn't say that R5 ability HAD to go, i said that if you want other emissaries to say around, that ability has to go.
And your statement that i want to completely take out the risk is not just a clear strawmen, but also ignorant. Without the R5 ability there are still risks. It's not that as a 'normal' emissary you only have risks with a R5 on the map, but that is what you are saying with that satement. Every ship on the server is a potential risk and a R5 without the ability will still try and hunt for other emissaries.
@sweetsandman said in Reaper level 5:
@super87ghost how about....
-Get rid of map visibility all-around for everyone
-Make it so that Reapers can only level up their Emissary with stolen loot
-Get rid of the little ships on the Emissary tables at outposts (at least for Reapers)That is a true balanced risk/reward system.
My only worry with this is for those of us who try to not attack non-emissary ships, we'd by forced to target everyone as targets of opportunity.
Right now I try to not go after non emissaries as a way to balance the wants of PvE only crews. If I can't find emissaries, then I'd have to change that code to have any kind of chance of finding a fight.
(Maybe I should abandon that code anyway!)
@super87ghost sagte in Reaper level 5:
Those OOS players don't see you on the map, that is the whole problem with Reaper-5. That special ability is just to OP and breaks the risk/reward system.
What?! 😳
THAT IS the risk/reward system...@sweetsandman sagte in Reaper level 5:
-Make it so that Reapers can only level up their Emissary with stolen loot
NO!
@scurvywoof said in Reaper level 5:
@sweetsandman You’re just Thanos at this point…
Minus the violence
Ooooo nice how long until I become a meme?
_
@schwammlgott said in Reaper level 5:@sweetsandman sagte in Reaper level 5:
-Make it so that Reapers can only level up their Emissary with stolen loot
NO!
Why not?
@sweetsandman said in Reaper level 5:
@super87ghost how about....
-Get rid of map visibility all-around for everyone
-Make it so that Reapers can only level up their Emissary with stolen loot
-Get rid of the little ships on the Emissary tables at outposts (at least for Reapers)That is a true balanced risk/reward system.
I mean, are we also doubling the emissary grade gain and gold reward for changing to only stolen loot? Because I can say with a certainty that is a huge nerf to that faction overall and a playstyle of one type would only be minorly effected.
Majority of ships have fairly low grade loot or run right to the red to despawn their loot rather than let an aggressor have it.
Maybe it would be a good time to turn the border ship damage up 5-6x so the despawn wall actually isn't able to be reached yet retrieving the loot would be dangerous as well. Rather than the laughable red sea that we have now that is "supposed to tear ships to pieces" when trying to pass through.
@sweetsandman sagte in Reaper level 5:
@scurvywoof said in Reaper level 5:
@sweetsandman You’re just Thanos at this point…
Minus the violence
Ooooo nice how long until I become a meme?
_
@schwammlgott said in Reaper level 5:@sweetsandman sagte in Reaper level 5:
-Make it so that Reapers can only level up their Emissary with stolen loot
NO!
Why not?
Isn't that obvious? Do you really need an answer to this?
Ok, here you are: that would make it a pure PvP faction...that's not what reapers are, they are a counterpart to the other factions
@sweetsandman
No, leave the map visibility, it is the entire point for reaper.Hmm, make it take longer with non-stolen loot one sea fort equals one level. But killing emissary players etc should then give more.
If anything add in a shipwright table with a list of ships on the server.
@schwammlgott said in Reaper level 5:
Ok, here you are: that would make it a pure PvP faction...that's not what reapers are, they are a counterpart to the other factions
Ehh...yes and no. It would make it a pure PvP faction to level up your Emissary grade. But, it would leave the gold/rep bonus unchanged for turning in loot regardless of how it was acquired. You sink a skeleton ship and kill a meg in your route to grade 5? Fantastic! That loot is eligible for whatever Emissary grade bonus you get to via stolen loot. You steal some loot and get to grade 3 and then want to just do world events? Great news, you can! You would still be able to get the grade 3 gold/rep bonus when you go to turn in that non-stolen loot.
@sweetsandman sagte in Reaper level 5:
@schwammlgott said in Reaper level 5:
Ok, here you are: that would make it a pure PvP faction...that's not what reapers are, they are a counterpart to the other factions
Ehh...yes and no. It would make it a pure PvP faction to level up your Emissary grade. But, it would leave the gold/rep bonus unchanged for turning in loot regardless of how it was acquired. You sink a skeleton ship and kill a meg in your route to grade 5? Fantastic! That loot is eligible for whatever Emissary grade bonus you get to via stolen loot. You steal some loot and get to grade 3 and then want to just do world events? Great news, you can! You would still be able to get the grade 3 gold/rep bonus when you go to turn in that non-stolen loot.
Ok, right.
But still no.
I'd be ok, if non-stolen loot would raise it slower, let's say about 25-50% slower. But nothing, just no"Again: WHAT about the lower reapers makes them leave then? You still can't answer that. "
I can and I have if you took a few minutes to try to understand what has been said to you.
What makes emissaries leave is the fact they can easily see if there is a reaper on the server. If they didnt see this info they would have no reason to leave.
Your arguement is just as big of a strawman. You keep acting like the r5 ability is the only reason this happens, when its simply untrue. It happens because the emissaries have the info of reapers on the server easily and instantly available to them.
"I never said that Reaper-5 on its own is a problem"
You clearly stated multiple times that reaper 5 should have its ability removed, and never mentioned it should have another ability to hunt down emissaries, which is its core design aspect, which you simply can not remove. Reapers are meant to have an advantage hunting emissaries. Please suggest something they could have instead and stop saying "Because of the R5 ability. So that IS the problem" without any suggestions.
"Without the R5 ability there are still risks. It's not that as a 'normal' emissary you only have risks with a R5 on the map, but that is what you are saying with that satement. Every ship on the server is a potential risk and a R5 without the ability will still try and hunt for other emissaries."
Again, youre implying your solution is just to remove the reaper 5s ability all together, and you offer no other suggestions.
The ability exists to counter emissaries. If you take out the ability, you take out the reisk emissaries face. You are taking risk away from a risk and reward system, youre replacing the risk with nothing but "I can still hunt ships as R5 without the ability". You are being silly.
Im done with this conversation, you clearly do not even try to understand what has been said to you.
@i-jusa-i said in Reaper level 5:
"Again: WHAT about the lower reapers makes them leave then? You still can't answer that. "
I can and I have if you took a few minutes to try to understand what has been said to you.
What makes emissaries leave is the fact they can easily see if there is a reaper on the server. If they didnt see this info they would have no reason to leave.
You still don't answer it. WHAT about seeing them makes them leave? Why would they not play if they see one? WHY would one leave just because they can see a reaper on the map? What negative is there for them that they imidiately leave? Every ship could be a pvp player, so if they chose to be a (lower level) reaper, it would only aid them in knowing where it is and how to avoid it, so how would that hurt them? So i am still waiting on the answer to that why-question. "they don't want to play with a reaper because they don't want to play with a reaper" is not an answer, that is just avoiding to answer.
@i-jusa-i said in Reaper level 5:
"I never said that Reaper-5 on its own is a problem"
You clearly stated multiple times that reaper 5 should have its ability removed, and never mentioned it should have another ability to hunt down emissaries, which is its core design aspect, which you simply can not remove.
AGAIN, i said that in the discussion about why all other emissaries 'leave' (either leave the server or lower/don't raise an emissary flag). IN THAT discussion is said R5's ability is the problem, because that makes them do that. If you don't mind that there are no others playing as emissary then there is no problem. If you do mind, THEN the R5's ability is the problem.
You are deliberately ignoring that.@i-jusa-i said in Reaper level 5:
"Without the R5 ability there are still risks. It's not that as a 'normal' emissary you only have risks with a R5 on the map, but that is what you are saying with that satement. Every ship on the server is a potential risk and a R5 without the ability will still try and hunt for other emissaries."
Again, youre implying your solution is just to remove the reaper 5s ability all together, and you offer no other suggestions.
And here you make clear you are 'discussing' in bad faith, because:
- i never said that they should JUST remove it.
- this quote was about YOUR implication that without the R5 ability there is no risk to other emissaries, not about giving solutions.
- you deliberately take out the context that this was against your implication (see point above) and try to claim i was trying to give solutions, while you know that i didn't try that with that quote.
- You claim "you offer no other suggestions": other the the point above this doesn't even have to be. You can point out a problem without having a full answer. That is also what discussing is about, so you can together discuss how to get to a full solution. In stead you use this to say i don't want any further suggestions, even when i already told you that this is not true. You deliberately keep ignoring that.
@schwammlgott said in Reaper level 5:
@super87ghost sagte in Reaper level 5:
Those OOS players don't see you on the map, that is the whole problem with Reaper-5. That special ability is just to OP and breaks the risk/reward system.
What?! 😳
THAT IS the risk/reward system...It is the current risk/reward system indeed, no question about it. But if everybody decided that it's not worth the risk, then you could have a discussion if that risk/reward system is balanced enough. I can see that it could be seen as a disbalance if nobody thinks it's worth the risk (they get a much higher risk with a R5 on the server, but the reward stays the same) and ofcourse it hurts the reaper-5's reward, since it's basicly useless (if there are no other emissaries to see...).
"AGAIN, i said that in the discussion about why all other emissaries 'leave' (either leave the server or lower/don't raise an emissary flag). IN THAT discussion is said R5's ability is the problem, because that makes them do that. If you don't mind that there are no others playing as emissary then there is no problem. If you do mind, THEN the R5's ability is the problem.
You are deliberately ignoring that."NO I am not INGNORING that. (why are you uppercasing words in such a silly way?)
I just told you you are wrong in thinkign that. Its not the R5 ability that makes emissaries leave, its the fact that emissaries see any reapers on the server that make them leave. You see how you simply dont understand what I am saying to you?? I have told you this, what, 3 times now and you still have not comprehended it. It is not JUST the ability of a reaper 5 that makes emissaries leave, IT IS the fact the emissaries SEE the reapers on the server as soon as they join in the first place (See, I can uppercase random words too?)
"i never said that they should JUST remove it."
Thats clearly what your messages say. You keep saying "It is the problem, remove it problem is gone, this is the issue, it needs to be gone" while at none of your messages you gave any suggestions on what the R5 ability should be to counter emissaries. This clearly makes it look like youre on a crusade to remove it and give nothing back to R5 as an ability.
"this quote was about YOUR implication that without the R5 ability there is no risk to other emissaries, not about giving solutions."
Its not my implication, the R5 ability exists to make being an emissary a higher risk choice. If there is no ability for R5 to easily attack emissaries, you are taking out risk from being an emissary. Again something you simply dont seem to want to understand.
"You claim "you offer no other suggestions": other the the point above this doesn't even have to be. You can point out a problem without having a full answer. "
Then you should propably mention that you dont know what the solution is and that there still needs to be something for R5 as an ability to counter emissaries. You have not once said this. You do understand that writing 5 messages about how you think R5 ability needs to be removed and not once mentioning there should still be something in its place to counter emissaries does make it look like you only want to remove the ability?
@i-jusa-i said in Reaper level 5:
"AGAIN, i said that in the discussion about why all other emissaries 'leave' (either leave the server or lower/don't raise an emissary flag). IN THAT discussion is said R5's ability is the problem, because that makes them do that. If you don't mind that there are no others playing as emissary then there is no problem. If you do mind, THEN the R5's ability is the problem.
You are deliberately ignoring that."NO I am not INGNORING that. (why are you uppercasing words in such a silly way?)
I just told you you are wrong in thinkign that. Its not the R5 ability that makes emissaries leave, its the fact that emissaries see any reapers on the server that make them leave. You see how you simply dont understand what I am saying to you?? I have told you this, what, 3 times now and you still have not comprehended it. It is not JUST the ability of a reaper 5 that makes emissaries leave, IT IS the fact the emissaries SEE the reapers on the server as soon as they join in the first place (See, I can uppercase random words too?)
AGAIN WHY?!?!?!?!?! WHAT is the reason?!
Keep just saying "you simply don't understand" while you were clearly asked multiple times to explain that. Because i literealy ask you to explain what about seeing a reaper on the map/table makes them leave (that is what a why question means!). What negative is so negative about seeing a reaper that they don't want to play on that server. After many attempts you still didn't answer that and left it with "they quit if they see a reaper because they see a reaper" without any explaination what is the negative for them that they quit.The reason they quit a server after seeing a reaper on the map/table (doesn't matter what grade) is because of that ability they get when they turn R5. That is why they quit when they know a reaper is on the server, even if that reaper is still lower grade. Because if they play emissaries, big chance the reaper is already a 5 before they completed their voyage or ranking up their flag. You still can't see that that is the underlying reason.
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