The Dark Adventurer Sails are a SERIOUS PROBLEM because at helm they BLATANTLY PUNISH you for using anything else!

I agree, these sails clearly can give an advantage. People who say they don't are quite dishonest imo.
I personally don't like the idea of different shapes for sails. Cosmetics should not impact anyone's performance, neither in a good or bad way.

You didn't even say how tacky it is, especially because a lot of pirates only uses the sail because of the shape advantage, ruin the experience for the fashionistas pirates in the crew. Of course I'll not stop playing with my friends because of it but I feel so ashamed I can't even hold my grog in the proper way.

Thats a sin, for sure.

@captainmcguffin

GrumpyW01f himself was actually the most reasonable opponent to this entire post but his points were only valid for Try-hard PvP which is FAR from the core of the issue.

Here's a recap of my PvE arguments:
I said:

I can continue with the same points... in PvE, those sails aren't doing anything for you in a crosswind. Most on the helm aren't there the whole time from island to island. Navigating around rocks/islands early ensures it's not a problem later. The quality of life in regular sailing is still situational. The game had been running for 3 years before the DA sails... I'm sure you figured out how to sail with ease in that time? A good player on the helm doesn't need any rip or cut to have a relaxed experience.

@lormium responded:

I do not need it.
I want it.
Why not have the best of both worlds :) ?

So I said:

So Rare isn't 'forcing' you. You just want the sails so much that you won't use anything else. At this point, it sounds like your complaint is that you like the sails so much more than everything else, and that's the problem that needs fixed. But that's not what you're saying…

So if the DA sails aren't an advantage in PvP, and are situational and unneeded for regular sailing, then they aren't a "SERIOUS PROBLEM" and you aren't getting "BLATANTLY PUNISH[ED]" for not using them... you just are stuck in your own head. It comes down to the same thing: you are preventing yourself from using other sails when changing them would make almost no difference in your experience.

Then back to square one:

The sum of the issues IS a serious Problem which comes down to an indirect blatant punishment if you ignore it.
For regular sailing calling them situational actually plays it down way to much.
It DOES make it significantly more enjoyable.

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I would agree, the sails are better for PvE than PvP, but I still find little difference in experience for cut/uncut sails. If your personal preference is that it's what you need to be comfortable sailing, then that's not something for Rare to step in on. Sail with what you want, I just don't think it's Rare's problem if it's a personal preference.

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@lormium said:

This Forum in general is full of SoT-Fannboys that defend even the worst aspects of it to the blood.

Have you seen the mystery thread? All these 'fanboys' are sick and tired of social media-locked content. And these 'fanboys' disagree on some subjects... In general, if there's a lot of people who frequently post that disagree, it's because of the suggestion, not the 'fanboy' mindset.

The advantage you speak of is completely made up in your head. At no point are those sails going to give you any kind of an advantage. In almost all combat situations the sails are usually brought up to slow and steady the ship for cannon shots. If your sails are 100% down most likely your are running not fighting.

@burnbacon except you now sacrifice some speed

@lormiun

The DA-Sails are OBVIOUSLY more than just something that comes down to my "personal preference".

Opinion.

Claiming otherwise is delusional.

Opinion.

If you are supposed to take part in a Formula1-Race you usually have to wear a helmet.
Now, would you rather wear a helmet that greatly obstructs your vision or one that ... does NOT do so?!

If F1 were as slow as sailing in SoT, it wouldn't matter what helmet you wore. And even if you have the helmet with the best visibility, you still have to turn your head from time to time. Just like you leave the wheel to get a view of the seas ahead.

But if you actively fight against Rare changing this status-Q for SoT then THAT is bad for SoT.
And that I call Fanboyism. Seen quite a lot on this Site, and that is completely normal.

Opinion. Name calling.

Fanboyism must be your term for those that disagree and can't be made to agree.

Players wanted fishing, we got fishing. Players wanted more story, we got Tall Tales. Players wanted npc ships, we got skeleton ships. Players wanted better Athena voyages, we got Athena's Runs, and eventually Legend of the Veil. Players wanted mermaid zones and lore, we got APL Tall Tales and the Sunken Kingdom. Players wanted actual Flameheart story again, we are seeing it unfold now.

Ever wonder why there are usually good reasons 'fanboys' go against suggestions? Because the best ideas have already been developed. Most suggestions can't be done, don't fit the game, or the problem that they intend to fix doesn't exist. Your suggestion has been in the "can't be done" camp from the beginning, and we're still arguing over whether or not the sails are a SERIOUS PROBLEM.

Anyone that doesn't think DA sails are a SERIOUS PROBLEM are fanboys, it seems.

This argument is getting old and boring.

The v cut is for folk that normally like to curl their sails. I’m more than capable of out sailing you with flat white sails on.

I don’t need to V cut, and they do not advantage me in any way shape or form because my style of helming does not work around the design or cut of the sail.

If you don’t understand what I’ve said above, or still try to argue that these sails are advantageous, then you simply do not know how I sail. Or, how someone who knows how to helm properly sails.

@pabio-escobar
"I don't need V cut, therefore it gives no advantage"
What kind of argument is that?
Please, just stop being deceitful. Being able to see more than someone else IS an advantage, look up the definition of that word if you disagree. It doesn't matter if you personally need it or not. @Lormiun's analogy with helmets is exactly on point.
Maybe it's not a serious problem, but the advantage is clearly there. Every time you don't have to rely on your crewmates or leave the wheel to see in front of you saves you time.

@lormiun

So now we are down to "Yeah, well, you know, that's just like uhh your opinion man."

I only put "opinion" under your statements because you wrote them like they were some undeniable truth, when they were just your opinion. Example:

But if you actively fight against Rare changing this status-Q for SoT then THAT is bad for SoT.

An opinion.

And if I look back to my second post, wherever I said "Opinion" you are doing exactly what I thought you would keep doing:

everybody that says anything else in regards to this is simply absolutely wrong! There is ZERO logic behind denying this XD

This statement is making me a bit shifty about how any further debate is going to work... You started with a "Nope! You're wrong!" argument without looking at why I said what I said.

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The opinion-card doesn't work when there is SOLID-Proof XD

But seriously watch this excellent video and tell me again that this is "only in my head" / "only my opinion".

Back to square one, you posting a video stating "Look! More visibility! This is broken and should be fixed!"

So, instead of restating my points, I'll just point to the same old ones:

Extremely situational in PvP

I can continue with the same points... in PvE, those sails aren't doing anything for you in a crosswind. Most on the helm aren't there the whole time from island to island. Navigating around rocks/islands early ensures it's not a problem later. The quality of life in regular sailing is still situational. The game had been running for 3 years before the DA sails... I'm sure you figured out how to sail with ease in that time? A good player on the helm doesn't need any rip or cut to have a relaxed experience.

In your video, the biggest example you show is how they look on a brig. The ship that has sails to the side in 80% of wind directions... How are DA sails going to help during a crosswind?

You are restricting your own cosmetic options because you are caught up in thinking you can't sail without the 'luxury.' A luxury that isn't even available for most wind directions...

I frequently pick different sails and it never affects my results. On Community Day, I sailed on the Royal Revenge for 6 hours, portal hopping from server to server, sinking whoever we came across. The sails never mattered. Everything else is more important to the outcome of PvP.

Situational in PvP, situational in PvE, and unneeded for anyone who has enough gold to buy the sails. Doesn't change any outcomes, only changes the experience for those who are convinced that there is an advantage for using the DA sails. And on top of that, continuing to post here just tells more and more new forum readers that the DA sails are what they need to have any sort of success in this game.

@rustyaldrich omg! you're right! We must petition rare to remove ALL tattered sails and ALL other sails that aren't purely and fully square! Much P2W, such unfair!

Im sorry but I’m not gonna read the whole op statement. But to comment on this, if you’re fighting with sails fully down ofc you’re gonna loose. If you think you lost bc of your sails; copium. DA sails don’t offer you any significant advantage. Its like using a skinnier gun or smaller sword to be able to aim or /// better.

To anyone that doesn't bother with maintaining/doesn't know how to properly maintain sails, I could see why they might think DA sails give an advantage.

Fact of the matter is the same result can be achieved by raising sails slightly, and without sacrificing any speed. Furthermore, people had been doing that since release. I own the DA sails, but I rarely use them. Like clockwork, every session that I play, at some point or another, I tell my crew to raise up the sails slightly, so our helmsman can see a bit better.

A good crew doesn't need DA sails to prevail in combat. Do they look cool? Absolutely. Are they a necessity? Some would argue yes, I'd argue no. If we are looking for solutions here, then I'd advocate for new physical sail shapes (v-cut included) that can be applied to all sails, and be available to everyone. Personally, I've been begging for the traditional trapezoidal sail designs that we see on real-life sailing ships (also visible on the Black Pearl in game).

@lormiun

The solutions I advocate for are simple.
A more Sails with the V-Cut.
B (preferably on the long run) A Sail-Editor :P [Similar to how you can change cannon flares you should be able to change sail-shape, simple as].

Those are all fine by me! Like I mentioned above, I think more sail shapes/design would be great. More customization is never a bad thing.

@lormiun I think the only hurtle would be applying/retooling existing ship skins to match the v-cut style, but I'm sure Rare would be able to pull that off no problem.

I want to see a reverse cut to the DA sails and it be 16 million plus.

@lafrules said in The Dark Adventurer Sails are a SERIOUS PROBLEM because at helm they BLATANTLY PUNISH you for using anything else!:

I learn that if you want to get your point across to as many people as possible on the forum, its always better to keep it short.

Personally, i do not share the same problem. I play with the DA sails almost all the time with my friends and when im alone i do not have a specific set of sails. I have more problems with big bulky cannons with a lot of fluff on it. Everyone has its thing i guess, but none of them fall into the “serious problem” category as far as i am concerned

No.. even this is too long.

@lormiun

You say it is merely my opinion and in the same breath you say that it is false.

?

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Unless you can DISPROVE me I will not change my stance, or as you would like to put it "my opinion".

You're still missing what I said. You presented a lot of things as facts that couldn't be argued against. All I did was respond with "No, those aren't facts. Those are opinions and I can for sure argue against that."

I've assembled my main points into my last post and you won't reply to them. Do you want disproval or silence?

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The DA-Sails themselves aren't really the problem. The problem is the way within which they impact SoT.
The topic is not as easy as reducing it to a simple advantage, yet I fear that MANY here in fact do this.

The point of reducing the discussion to advantage vs. no advantage is that if we can argue that there is no advantage (or a negligible one), then we can confirm that the only reason that the DA sails are so widely used is because of how they are perceived. Which isn't a problem of balance, but misinformation.

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A more Sails with the V-Cut.

I wouldn't want the exact cut in the game, that would basically be Rare agreeing that the V-Cut gives an advantage. But I'm all for more cuts in the future, similar or not.

B (preferably on the long run) A Sail-Editor :P [Similar to how you can change cannon flares you should be able to change sail-shape, simple as].

We've been over this, it's not worth the loads of effort required to get it to work.

@lormiun

• You still haven't touched my PvE/QoL argument, just reducing it down to my last sentence.
• It seems like you are trying to misunderstand my words.

From the VERY beginning I agreed to your arguments when it came to them not making the world of a difference in PvP.

But you basically ignore the CORE of my argument and constantly divert back to that. It's basically a Straw-Man at this point.

You posted a video. I said "Back to square one" and posted my PvP and PvE/QoL arguments and you're like "You're using this PvP argument again! What a strawman!" when literally all I did was point back to old posts, summing up my replies to your original video. Again, please tackle the PvE/QoL arguments. Because the original PvE argument was that most of the things in the PvP argument still ring true in PvE. You need sails down, you need to be on the helm, the sails need to be in the middle, etc.

• Your constant affirmation that you have the undeniable proof is getting boring. The last video you posted is this undeniable proof that the DA sails have a cut. Did anyone say that the DA sails didn't have a cut? No. so what is so special about a visibility comparison if we've already been over how situational it is?
• You constantly think redesigning every sail to work with every cut isn't too hard to tackle. Guess what? It is. Textures aren't as easy as "slap this cut on!" and this sail editor could mean making a whole new system to work with cut changes or making a new texture for every cut on every sail. Prove to the forum that there's something more than personal feelings behind this:

And it wouldn't be such "loads of effort".

Or RARE could just add the ability to change sail shapes from squares to v shapes to other shapes…

@lormiun

In PvP your crew and you are (or at least should be) 100% alert and ready.
In PvE you are usually NOT! (Unless you sail with the greatest sweats in existence and are one yourself 100% of time).
Imagine the following scenario: Your crew slacks of and >plays music and you hit a rock because you just didn't see it which would NOT have happened if you used DA-Sails.
This is 70%+ of your Sea-of-Thieves experience man ... and THAT makes it kind of a big deal.

So because crews sometimes get lazy, the Dark Adventurers Sails are a SERIOUS PROBLEM because at the helm they BLATANTLY PUNISH you for using anything else?
It's not like you hit rocks because you don't have DA sails. Any galleon helmsman knows the pain of having an inattentive crew, DA sails or not you have to come off the wheel to check your surroundings. Even with sails fully left/right you could be missing a rock coming to your bow. Oh wow, those with the DA sails have a lower rock-hitting percent.
In my experience, lazy cremates just sit on the bow and look forward. They won't turn sails, fish, or anything else productive, but they will let you know when you're sailing for a rock.

Is this direct enough for you XD ?
Or would you want me to define even more :P ?

Well this was your first time (in my memory) that you tackled my PvE/QoL arguments instead of pointing and laughing at resolved PvP discussions, so, yeah, that is direct enough.

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Your original points are simply BS for PvE.
You can't compare that XD

Just more "Nope, you're wrong"? Seriously? How about that on a brig 80% of the time your sails are left/right (an original point)? How is that dismissable for QoL?

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YOU made the claim that it is too much work so how about you FIRST proof that. Your textures are hard-mention isn't worth more than my point.

I thought it was common knowledge that objects in games required a model and texture? So a cut on a sail in SoT would either be a special model for that sail or a common model with individual textures that sometimes make certain sections invisible. I would go for the latter, because it's simpler. If so, that would mean that a new cut for a sail would require adding to the texture to make parts invisible.
And we're so quick to think that adding cuts wouldn't be a problem that we forget that removing cuts would be terrible. What if I wanted to take the cut off of the DA sails? With your suggestion, this would be available, right? Well, now you have to replace clear portions of the texture with color that was never developed in the first place!
So, unless a new system was created that could modify sail textures on the fly, every sail would have to have a different texture made for every cut. I'd just rather they make new sails.

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And for someone who likes to play the "you didn't touch that argument"-card,
why didn't YOU touch my point in regards to the effects that more V-shaped sails WITHOUT such a Sail-Shape-Editor would have?

wut
I don't understand, I said I was fine with more V-shaped sails multiple times.
Show me what I missed and I'll answer.
I said the DA sail useage is a matter of optics, and if people hop onto different V-cuts if they're released, I don't see why that wouldn't still be a matter of optics.

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You're newest post has even more "lol you're wrong XD" and "I'm right no matter what." Can you tone it down a little?

@lormiun

The rock-scenario is just one example.

What is there to sailing besides avoiding rocks, staying on course, and stopping before hitting your destination? Things even the laziest crews call you on most of the time. It's not a big deal. Though it seems we have different perspectives on what a lazy/average crew is. And, in the present, the only ones who have access to the V-cut are usually above average anyway.

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ever heard of ... a Galleon?

Yeah... brigs turn their sails the same as galleons in the same winds... It's only the sloop where you change your sail-turning strategy, all brig comparisons hold for the galleon (besides difference in sail location, of course).

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A 80% is a VERY generous number here.

It might have been a little generous. So I'll try and get pictures in game rather than think it up in my head. Anywhere in 360 degrees are the possible wind directions you can get at any given time. First, we must decide what angles are actually "Middle," or where there is any significant visibility in the forward direction.

I started by going on a galleon. I set the sails to somewhere around 45 degrees and checked the visibility in wind.

As you can see, there is a lot less extra visibility for this angle. Then, I measured the angle at ~40 degrees, it could be smaller (the wind changed and I had to turn the ship, but I did not turn the sails).
Also, a tighter angle probably would have been similar in visibility. So the final angle would be ~80 degrees, probably less.
On top of that is 'dummy' sails. It's around 20 degrees either way for a headwind that you're supposed to have the sails to the left/right to get maximum speed (for the brig/galleon) but probably somewhat more. So the final angle would be ~40 degrees, probably more.
If we add 80 degrees (probably less) to 40 degrees (probably more), we get 120 degrees. Which means that 66% of wind directions don't give extra visibility with DA sails on the galleon. It's not far off my estimate.
And if we factor in that turning the sails decreases visibility, only the ~40 degrees for 'dummy' sails and when you have a perfect tailwind do you actually get the full cut for the DA sails. And any turn due to the wind gradually reduces that cut.

I don't feel like going into depth with every ship, but we at least know that the cut isn't as significant as the galleon, so that 66% is a little larger. And the sloop has to do 'dummy' sails in a lot more winds, so that 66% is smaller. But I can at least say that the DA sails do nothing to visibility most of the time.

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As a bit a coder myself I would probably go for like a handful of "default-shapes" that can be given the paint-job of already existing sails.

If I'm reading this right, you're saying that the sail model is different for each cut? That would cause more work than what I said in my last post. That would mean that every non-V-cut sail texture would need remade for the V-cut model to be added for that sail.

It wouldn't have to work for EVERY sail. That would be ideal but not absolutely necessary. If they do it with the majority OR EVEN A HANDFULL of sails that would be good enough,

That's a bit more reasonable. But you kinda just moved the goalposts. It's not exactly a "Sail Editor" if you can't edit most sails. It sounds more like a handful of sails have cut variations. Which might be a cool addition.

That is for Rare to decide, but it is NOT loads of work and it most certainly WOULD be worth it my man.

You changed the idea from all sails to a few sails per update and say that it wouldn't be loads of work? Duh.

But to be Devil's Advocate here, even on the opening month of a season, there is still like 6 sails at most released. 1-2 for the season, 1-2 for recolors/new set, and 2 for the emporium.

And to be Devil's Advocate again, if they were to add only one new cut to 4 sails every month, there's still 3 ships, so that's still 12 cosmetics to make. Who knows what level of copy/paste they're able to do, but we know that the front sail on a galleon doesn't have the same texture as the sloop, for example.

It's just cosmetics.

You can say that about the whole game, it doesn't mean anything in particular.

that is for RARE to decide.

It's also for Rare to decide, should we make a Sail Editor or just release more sails with cuts? The latter is less work.

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As long as there are MORE Sails with a cut the same or larger to satisfy at least MOST of tastes: I am 100% happy BUT ...
... if they were to do that WITHOUT such a sail Editor, especially if they are more accessible:
You know what would happen:
E-V-E-R-Y-B-O-D-Y will use those sails and those that are already there will go to waste.

Isn't this what you're saying already happens with anyone rich enough to buy the DA sails?
We don't necessarily need exact or close cuts, just cuts that fit the aesthetic of the sail in question. And I'm perfectly fine with that. If all the noobs hop onto a cheap blue sail with a U-cut, that's fine, but it doesn't automatically mean that the cuts are bad, just that there's an optics problem. One that, again, is contributed to by this thread.

The solutions to the problem are:

1). Do nothing and let people continue to complain.

2). Modify the DA sails in a way that they no longer improve visibility. This could be done by simply lengthening the sails overall.

3). Introduce more sail variants across different gold price brackets that offer the same visibility improvements.

4). Offer a "sail style selector" that can be applied to all of the traditionally "square" sail variants in the game. Offer a "standard" option which is the square...a "tattered" option like the Inky Kraken sails...a "heavily tattered" option like the Venomous Kraken sails...a "V-Cut" like the DA sails...Could even get into some "emporium" options that are similar to the Rogue Tinkerer, Eternal Freedom, Lunar Festival, etc.

I'd choose option 4...